RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Apparently lubricant is sprayed on the track at some spots. Noted on the NW side of the Merivale bridge at the curve on the approach to Roma Street.

Quote from: verbatim9 on July 17, 2019, 16:54:54 PM
Apparently lubricant is sprayed on the track at some spots. Noted on the NW side of the Merivale bridge at the curve on the approach to Roma Street.

There is quite a lot of lubricant applied to rail on curves all over.  Wheel squeal on curves is one issue.  The problem with the braking squeal is a separate issue.  I am hearing that the composition of the brake pads might be an issue.

All tight radius curves have a rail lubricator system attached to the outside rail on the approach side of the curves, it's not an oil as such and it's a real pain in the butt to wash off clothes and skin. If you look at most level crossings you can see a build up of it where the asphalt starts it is not spayed on as it would cause trains to not stop at all. The noise is worse on the ngrs due to the make up of the brake pads and the disks being more on the outside of the bogie sets where it is not trapped in the undercarriage like the 220s. The 160 260s have a different braking make up.

Sent to all outlets:

18th July 2019

Feedback on NGR braking squealing

Good Morning,

I posted the email yesterday concerning the braking squealing with the NGRs on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/2738764112804425

Some of the feedback comments:

" I heard it for the first time a few weeks ago and it was incredible. I was dumbfounded that professionally built trains could be allowed to sound like that. "

" I was one of the people who complained very early on...it is ridiculously loud. Thanks Robert. "

" Yeah it's unbelievable - it physically causes pain at central station. "

" ... I've even noticed the station staff (the ones now rostered to be on the platform for every NGR arrival) putting their fingers in their ears to avoid the excruciatingly loud noise of the brakes. ... "

" Yep when they all arrive In central, it's excruciating "

" ... I wear ear protection on trains and around stations as I am concerned the below constant noises will damage my hearing if it hasn't already. Constant screaching of brakes. ... "

There is obviously a problem.  What needs to occur is for a proper public explanation from the authorities and what might be done to resolve it.  We understand the position of the brakes on the outside of the bogies on the NGRs and the composition of the brake pads may be related factors.

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on July 17, 2019, 05:05:55 AM
Sent to all outlets:

New Generation Rollingstock - loud squealing noises when braking

17th July 2019

Good Morning,

Many passengers have noticed now for a while the varying level of squealing noise emanating from New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) trains as they brake. There is also wheel squeal on curves, but the braking squeal seems to be more of an issue.

For example:

https://www.facebook.com/TransLinkQLD/posts/3443168355709205

Quote

    Hi there. Just wondering if anything is going to be done about the excruciating noise from the brakes on the new rolling stock. Depending on where you sit, it is actually unbearable at times. Thanks.

In enclosed stations this noise is magnified, and sometimes very uncomfortable and possibly reaches unsafe levels. Passengers on board the trains tend to be insulated from the noise to a degree, but it depends on sitting location in carriages.  Passengers on platforms are directly exposed to this high level noise.

Yesterday around 12.20pm I was waiting at platform 5 Central for the Ipswich service ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg224665#msg224665 ).  NGR 743 arrived at platform 6 bound for Kippa-Ring.  The braking squeal from this train was the loudest I have ever heard, and I thought ' I need ear protection ', similar to what we used on the rifle range in my digger days, it was that bad.  NGR 717 subsequently arrived at platform 5 for the Ipswich service, it too squealed as brakes applied but it was at a much lower level compared to NGR 743.

This constant squealing I don't think is a design feature.  What is being done to resolve it please?

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1151518427325947909

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 18th July 2019 page 19

Squeal too much for ears

I have heard that there has not been an actual start to the NGR rectification at Maryborough (Downer).  Plenty of drawings but negotiations ongoing between TMR, Bombardier and Downer.  I think the time line might be extending all ready.   

The broad concept is that a new toilet module will be fitted after the roof of the carriage (MA) is first removed. The existing toilets (MB) will be modified I expect.

An example of a short NGR brake squeal https://backontrack.org/docs/ngr/shortNGRbrakesqueal.mp3  MP3 256KB

Taken from  youtube.com/watch?v=zqTJnNg0YvQ

Sent to all outlets:

19th July 2019

An example of NGR brake squeal

Good Morning,

Here is an example of the NGR brake squeal that is concerning many.

An example of a short NGR brake squeal https://backontrack.org/docs/ngr/shortNGRbrakesqueal.mp3  MP3 256KB
( Extracted from youtube.com/watch?v=zqTJnNg0YvQ )

The effects of this squealing are amplified at enclosed stations such as Central and Fortitude Valley.  The NGR trains will be running through the new underground Cross River Rail, it would be some what farcical if NGR brake squealing was not resolved by then, as otherwise the brake squealing will be particularly disturbing to many passengers and staff no doubt, at the new underground railway stations.

We are still waiting for a statement outlining how the resolution of this issue with the NGR trains will be achieved.

Thank you.

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on July 18, 2019, 01:43:31 AM
Sent to all outlets:

18th July 2019

Feedback on NGR braking squealing

Good Morning,

I posted the email yesterday concerning the braking squealing with the NGRs on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/2738764112804425

Some of the feedback comments:

" I heard it for the first time a few weeks ago and it was incredible. I was dumbfounded that professionally built trains could be allowed to sound like that. "

" I was one of the people who complained very early on...it is ridiculously loud. Thanks Robert. "

" Yeah it's unbelievable - it physically causes pain at central station. "

" ... I've even noticed the station staff (the ones now rostered to be on the platform for every NGR arrival) putting their fingers in their ears to avoid the excruciatingly loud noise of the brakes. ... "

" Yep when they all arrive In central, it's excruciating "

" ... I wear ear protection on trains and around stations as I am concerned the below constant noises will damage my hearing if it hasn't already. Constant screaching of brakes. ... "

There is obviously a problem.  What needs to occur is for a proper public explanation from the authorities and what might be done to resolve it.  We understand the position of the brakes on the outside of the bogies on the NGRs and the composition of the brake pads may be related factors.

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on July 17, 2019, 05:05:55 AM
Sent to all outlets:

New Generation Rollingstock - loud squealing noises when braking

17th July 2019

Good Morning,

Many passengers have noticed now for a while the varying level of squealing noise emanating from New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) trains as they brake. There is also wheel squeal on curves, but the braking squeal seems to be more of an issue.

For example:

https://www.facebook.com/TransLinkQLD/posts/3443168355709205

Quote

    Hi there. Just wondering if anything is going to be done about the excruciating noise from the brakes on the new rolling stock. Depending on where you sit, it is actually unbearable at times. Thanks.

In enclosed stations this noise is magnified, and sometimes very uncomfortable and possibly reaches unsafe levels. Passengers on board the trains tend to be insulated from the noise to a degree, but it depends on sitting location in carriages.  Passengers on platforms are directly exposed to this high level noise.

Yesterday around 12.20pm I was waiting at platform 5 Central for the Ipswich service ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg224665#msg224665 ).  NGR 743 arrived at platform 6 bound for Kippa-Ring.  The braking squeal from this train was the loudest I have ever heard, and I thought ' I need ear protection ', similar to what we used on the rifle range in my digger days, it was that bad.  NGR 717 subsequently arrived at platform 5 for the Ipswich service, it too squealed as brakes applied but it was at a much lower level compared to NGR 743.

This constant squealing I don't think is a design feature.  What is being done to resolve it please?

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1151930021595901953

" Good Morning!  We are here at the new underground Albert Street station on the first day of trains under Brisbane "

" Thank you for joining us Minister Bumble!  This is a great day for Brisbane Minister "

" Good Morning.  Yes, I am delighted that our Government has delivered for Queensland a world class

trans .. SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELL

" OMG Minister, what was that? "

" Oh, it is just a NGR braking .. "

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 19th July 2019 page 13

Answers needed over screeching

Maybe people can record their different squealies and post?

Honestly, the one Ozbob put up sounds like some kind of ghost haunting!

Quote from: #Metro on July 19, 2019, 08:10:37 AM
Maybe people can record their different squealies and post?

Honestly, the one Ozbob put up sounds like some kind of ghost haunting!

It is that high pitched ' squeal ' ...  I must say I didn't notice any squeal on the new Sydney NW Metro trains when braking ...

When QR Staff are seen putting fingers in ears, it might be time to issue ear protection to the platform staff.

Joke:

How do you tell the QR staff sitting in the carriage?

They are ones with the ear muffs on ... BOM BOM ! 

Seriously, damage to ears is a serious issue.  In the green machine, when on the range firing weapons ear protection was mandatory of course.

Quote from: ozbob on July 19, 2019, 08:19:40 AM

Quote from: #Metro on July 19, 2019, 08:10:37 AM
Maybe people can record their different squealies and post?

Honestly, the one Ozbob put up sounds like some kind of ghost haunting!

It is that high pitched ' squeal ' ...  I must say I didn't notice any squeal on the new Sydney NW Metro trains when braking ...

When QR Staff are seen putting fingers in ears, it might be time to issue ear protection to the platform staff.

Joke:

How do you tell the QR staff sitting in the carriage?

They are ones with the ear muffs on ... BOM BOM ! 

Seriously, damage to ears is a serious issue.  In the green machine, when on the range firing weapons ear protection was mandatory of course.

Staff at stations on curves already have PPE. Such as Eagle Junction, Zillmere and Bald Hills.

^ glad to hear that they have.  I have just been informed by another source that station staff have (offered?) ear protection for working with the NGRs too.  Is this true do you know? The last thing you need is hearing loss.

^ Pretty worrying that this is even happening in the first place. Surely someone would have thought about noise impact when designing the NGRs? Requiring PPE simply for working near NGRs certainly isn't a great working practice, nor does it adhere to the basic principles of Safety in Design.

Indeed James.  It has been suggested to me by someone experienced in rail matters that the braking pad material for the friction brakes is too hard.  So hard, that excess force is needed by the calipers to work the brakes, this is leading to some scoring of wheel discs and making the equipment prone to the loud squeals.  This makes some sense as there have been reports of overshoots with the NGRs, braking might be difficult to judge sometimes because of the force needed.  It is thought that in time the wheel discs will have to be resurfaced, and a new softer material put in place.  Once this is done they might quieten down and braking might be more predictable.  This is just a supposition and may not be fact, but it is a reasonable supposition and fits some of the observations.

Early, the NGRs did have ' over performing brakes ' which according to TransLink was sorted out ( https://www.railway-technology.com/features/featurequeenslands-new-trains-what-went-wrong-5798938/ ).  Bit of a history hey?

Quote... Also last year, TransLink confirmed that braking problems had been discovered; namely that trains were braking too suddenly.

"On-track testing of the first NGR train identified the need for adjustments to the braking system, as it was exceeding the required braking rate (over-performing)," a TransLink spokesperson said last year. "Any adjustments or improvements made to the NGR train's design will be subject to a thorough technical review and testing programme." Since then, braking concerns have been resolved, Qtectic confirms. ...

Quote from: ozbob on July 18, 2019, 05:56:18 AM
I have heard that there has not been an actual start to the NGR rectification at Maryborough (Downer).  Plenty of drawings but negotiations ongoing between TMR, Bombardier and Downer.  I think the time line might be extending all ready.   

The broad concept is that a new toilet module will be fitted after the roof of the carriage (MA) is first removed. The existing toilets (MB) will be modified I expect.

This is the published timeline.  Probably still going to achieve this hopefully ..

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/N/New-Generation-Rollingstock/Accessibility-upgrade-works-at-Maryborough

QuoteTimeline of accessibility upgrade works at Maryborough

January 2019 – arrival of NGR train MU1 for refit and familiarisation.
April 2019 – start of construction of infrastructure improvements.
Late 2019 – first NGR train arrives to begin installation of accessibility upgrades.
2020 – first upgraded NGR train to begin passenger services in South East Queensland
2024 – final NGR train upgraded and completion of NGR accessibility upgrades at Maryborough.

Couriermail --> Train users complaint noise from NGR brakes is 'excruciating'

QuoteTransLink have confirmed they are working with Canadian-based train manufacturer Bombardier on yet another fix for the state's New Generation fleet after commuters complained about an "unbearable" problem.

TRANSPORT officials are working to fix squealing brakes on the state's New Generation train fleet after commuter complaints about "excruciating" noise levels.

TransLink has confirmed to The Sunday Mail the new fleet had in an "intermittent brake squeal" issue that it was working with Canadian-based train manufacturer Bombardier to fix.

A spokesman for TransLink said it was working with Bombardier and the brake component manufacturer to "investigate the root cause and identify a solution."

But it has moved to allay safety concerns, assuring "the noise does not affect breaking braking performance."

"This appears to be an intermittent fault on a small number of the (New Generation Rollingstock) trains currently operating on the network," the spokesman told the newspaper.

The Sunday Mail questioned TransLink about squealing brakes on the NGR trains after public transport advocacy Rail Back on Track raised noise concerns.

Spokesman Robert Dow referred said he was waiting at Central station this month when he experienced for himself the squealing breaks brakes of NGR 743 as it arrived at the platform.

"The braking squeal from this train was the loudest I have ever heard and I thought: 'I need ear protection,' similar to what we used on the rifle range in my digger days it was that bad," he said.

Another NGR then arrived with squealing brakes, but it was not as loud, he said.

He highlighted one commuter's comment the noise was "excruciating" and "unbearable at times."

"Yeah it's unbelievable – it physically causes pain at Central Station," another wrote.

Mr Dow said the screechy brakes was amplified in enclosed or underground stations such as Central, Fortitude Valley and Ipswich.


Rail Back on Track's Robert Dow says the problem is worse in stations like Fortitude Valley. Picture: AAP/Josh Woning

"The critical thing is we have over 60 NGR trains (running) now and what's happened is it has become a lot more noticeable," he said.

It is not the first braking issue to emerge under the $4.4 billion NGR rollout: the trains were initially braking to heavily in testing.

But the biggest problem has been a design bungle in which the trains were built with toilets too small or inaccessible to disabled commuters.

It will cost $336 million to fix.

TransLink says the work is on track to start in Maryborough later this year and would be finished by early 2024.


Queensland Rail New Generation Rollingstock trains have been plagued with problems since they were delivered.

^ when will they ever learn TMR/TransLink et al.  A series of communications asking what is being done about the problem is ignored.  Inevitably it will end up in the media.  It is the only thing they respond too it seems .. serves themselves right 

Well the problem has been finally officially acknowledged and steps are underway to resolve it.  That's all we wanted to know really.

Days since NGR 701 towed to Wulkuraka

Sunday Mail 21st July 2019 page 14

Riders squeal on rail brakes

At least they didn't spell it "breaking" in the second version of the article. 

Quote from: red dragin on July 21, 2019, 06:44:53 AM
At least they didn't spell it "breaking" in the second version of the article. 

Thanks. Common typo in these days of electronic ' spell checking ' ... I have let them know.

Newspapers have cut down a lot on their sub editors and the like.  Typos are a lot more common these days ..

Quote from: ozbob on July 21, 2019, 07:47:00 AM

Quote from: red dragin on July 21, 2019, 06:44:53 AM
At least they didn't spell it "breaking" in the second version of the article. 

Thanks. Common typo in these days of electronic ' spell checking ' ... I have let them know.

Newspapers have cut down a lot on their sub editors and the like.  Typos are a lot more common these days ..

A spell-checker wouldn't have picked up that issue but a grammar checker would've. Surely now they've sacked ask the subeditors, the news orgs can afford $30/month for their journos to have a decent grammar checker (and I'm sure the vendors would have corporate rates unavailable to us plebs).

Now back on-topic, I caught 749 to Helensvale yesterday and the brake squeal as it approached Loganlea (where I boarded) was horrific

Quote... I caught 749 to Helensvale yesterday and the brake squeal as it approached Loganlea (where I boarded) was horrific

^ Yo!  The brake squeal is very loud at times .. worse in enclosed stations of course.

Completed an interview with 7 News.  They might be interviewing some of the people who gave feedback on our Facebook post too.

News report won't be complete without a sound sample of a SCREEEEECHHHHH! 

Quote from: #Metro on July 21, 2019, 11:49:58 AM
News report won't be complete without a sound sample of a SCREEEEECHHHHH! 

I gave them the file ...     

Perhaps we should change the name to 'Noisy Generation Rollingstock'

https://www.facebook.com/nathan.waud/videos/2764779500263786/

The issue here is bombardier...
Google 'bombardier faulty' and feast your eyes on a mountain of complaints,delays,faults and apologies...
The company is obviously scoring the majority of contracts due to its price advantage....unfortunately what the sellout governments(QLD being one of them) get in return is a quality disadavantage.
If you choose price over quality....dont sit there at a later date and wonder where it all went wrong when faced with a delay or a fault.

Some recents:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-17/siemens-is-poised-to-resume-train-deliveries-to-deutsche-bahn

QuoteDeutsche Bahn, which depends on the trains for its passenger service, discovered a flaw in the welding of the train bodies in April and said it would stop accepting the trains from Siemens until the problem was solved. The fault was traced to supplier Bombardier Inc., which was building the wagons, a person familiar with the matter said at the time.
A spokeswoman for Siemens wasn't immediately available for comment. A representative of Bombardier declined to comment.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2019/07/11/bombardiers-thunder-bay-jobs-will-return-with-more-government-orders.html

QuoteIn the case of the TTC, for instance, Bombardier famously produced street cars that didn't work. The reason? Although the vehicles were assembled in Thunder Bay, the parts themselves were manufactured in low-wage Mexican plants that didn't do proper welding.

Seriously how can you stuff up something as basic as welding???

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1152857842283450368

Love the way Isabelle finishes the interview with the NGR arriving at the station with a nice squeal ... 

Quote from: techblitz on July 21, 2019, 15:49:23 PM

Quote...manufactured in low-wage Mexican plants...

Seriously how can you stuff up something as basic as welding???

There's your answer.

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1152965494938320897


This situation is a classic example of the failure of proper media management and public engagement by the authorities. How much moolah these clowns are paid for bumble output?  Too many sycophantic staffers and media officers overly concerned with the ' message ' rather than the obvious reality.

When the problem became obvious a simple statement acknowledging the issue with NGR brake squeal and what they are doing about it would head off the media spotlight.   Ignore public and our feedback at your peril!!

Quote from: techblitz on July 21, 2019, 15:49:23 PM
Perhaps we should change the name to 'Noisy Generation Rollingstock'

https://www.facebook.com/nathan.waud/videos/2764779500263786/

The issue here is bombardier...
Google 'bombardier faulty' and feast your eyes on a mountain of complaints,delays,faults and apologies...
The company is obviously scoring the majority of contracts due to its price advantage....unfortunately what the sellout governments(QLD being one of them) get in return is a quality disadavantage.
If you choose price over quality....dont sit there at a later date and wonder where it all went wrong when faced with a delay or a fault.

Some recents:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-17/siemens-is-poised-to-resume-train-deliveries-to-deutsche-bahn

QuoteDeutsche Bahn, which depends on the trains for its passenger service, discovered a flaw in the welding of the train bodies in April and said it would stop accepting the trains from Siemens until the problem was solved. The fault was traced to supplier Bombardier Inc., which was building the wagons, a person familiar with the matter said at the time.
A spokeswoman for Siemens wasn't immediately available for comment. A representative of Bombardier declined to comment.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2019/07/11/bombardiers-thunder-bay-jobs-will-return-with-more-government-orders.html

QuoteIn the case of the TTC, for instance, Bombardier famously produced street cars that didn't work. The reason? Although the vehicles were assembled in Thunder Bay, the parts themselves were manufactured in low-wage Mexican plants that didn't do proper welding.

Seriously how can you stuff up something as basic as welding???

Seems to be a problem with the Canadian plant only.  These issues aren't in evidence elsewhere.

Fifty years in front were the Steppenwolf      ( Can you hear the NGRs? ) 

Is the Ch 7 media report correct?  All brakes on the NGR trains will need to be replaced?  I thought they only needed to be modified.

Quote from: Stillwater on July 22, 2019, 16:32:16 PM
Is the Ch 7 media report correct?  All brakes on the NGR trains will need to be replaced?  I thought they only needed to be modified.

Yo, I think it was a bit of an exaggeration of sorts. 

But it is possible I guess, more likely is modification to pad material, perhaps some disc mods.

I travelled into Fortitude Valley today.  The few NGRs I observed braking were squealing, not quite as loud as 743 the other day at Central but still noticeable.  Spotted 761 for the first time for me too today.

So they did a few stories on the screeching... i still think the two ngrs screeching into centeal at the same time on 4 & 5(or 6) or something ages ago was one of the worst sounds that i've ever heard