New Generation Rollingstock

[O_128]

Assuming that once the current order of trains is up and the next order of trains are of a new design what are people hoping to see.

1. 3 doors per carriage
2. reversible seating
3. Better PIDs ( showing next few stations etc)

[#Metro]

1. Spaces for bicycles.  :bi

This might be a radical suggestion, but trains last 30 years +, there are going to be heaps of people wanting to take their bike on the train and do so during peak hour. Rather than just ban them, accommodate them.

They manage to fit a bathroom, sink and toilet on the Gold Coast trains, for the suburban short distance trains perhaps they can have a space in the same place for bicycles.

2. Nine car trains?

3. Three doors per carriage, or perhaps just for the middle section which gets crowded with lots of people.

4. TV. The ferry has it, and some buses overseas. Could use bluetooth... just an idea, not really important as the other points but could be used to broadcast the 5pm news, tune into it from your phone, sell advertising on it, announce stations etc.

5. Scratch resistant/graffiti resistant windows.

6. Seats at the middle of the train (so, the last carriage on 3 car trains) to be single row and along the wall.
6-car trains could be placed-end to end for this to work.
Some GC trains have this. Fits more people on.

I might draw something and post it up  

As for the stations, better loos!
All of them seem yucky...

[somebody]

2. reversible seating

I'd be interested in knowing what the problem with this is.  CityRail's earlier stock had it, but later stock just has fixed seating.


I'd think just having more logic would help.  Longitudonal seating in IMUs!  What's that? 

What I'd like:
3 doors/side/car but only for SMUs.  I'd always like better acceleration and braking.  Never hurts point-point times.
Also, no push button to open the door.  Just open them automatically on release.  And no 2 stage openning mechanism, aka "plug type" doors.

[stephenk]

There was a CRG meeting last year where requirements for train interiors were well discussed. From what I can remember most popular required feature was extra vertical and horizontal handrails. 3 sets of doors/car side was discussed, although in the ICRCS there is a recommendation for 4 sets of doors per car side so that old and new trains can line up with platform edge doors at new underground stations. Longitudinal seating was surprisingly not popular, and quite a few people agreed that 2+1 seating would provide more capacity for extra standees (and thus higher overall capacity) than longitudinal seating. Improved or extra information screen were popular, but an interactive information screen was universally panned. Bike racks were also not popular as many thought they are an inefficient use of space.

[Arnz]

Citytrain does have "reversible" seating.  However, they're only available on the ICEs (when they're not broken down, that is).

[Arnz]

2. Nine car trains?

Too much overkill, especially with the "zero harm" carriage lock-up procedures for short platforms in place for the handful of 6-car Rosewood and Tennsyon services.

Getting into dream mode here (aka the fantasy file).

* 4-car MUs (75 seated per carriage - 300 passengers) replacing the ICEs (45 seated - 300 passengers).  The fleet would be dedicated to improved Cooroy/Gympie North runs, as well as direct Rosewood services.
* 4-car MUs being compatible with the 160/260 MUs to form a 7-car set (with "H-set" technology installed on the MUs to lock up the doors on the back carriages at the short-platform stations.  This would enable all carriages to be used, but the doors on the back carriages will be locked whilst idle at the short-platform stations).

[somebody]

Don't know why they can't just lock the back 3 cars at Ipswich on Rosewood services.

[O_128]

2. reversible seating

I'd be interested in knowing what the problem with this is.  CityRail's earlier stock had it, but later stock just has fixed seating.

And oddly they have moved back to the reversible seating now, also scratch resistant windows area are a must

[cartel_brisbane]

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2009/09/17/1225775/665183-seats.jpg

A similar scheme should be adopted for short, high speed and frequent commuter trips.

Maximize standing room. All flip-down seats along interior sides only. Lots of hand grab-holds. Get as many people onto trains as possible.

[Golliwog]

I don't know if 9 car trains are needed just yet, but they should definatly start upgrading stations so they are compatible. Theres only so much you can upgrade the frequency of services without having to provide a whole new set of tracks.

As for new cars themselves, I think 3 doors/side definatly wouldn't hurt. As for seating, I have heard of previous discussions of seatless or very few seat trains for the shorter lines in peak period (ie: Doomben/FG/etc) but from what I heard, QR didn't really like this because they wouldn't want to use those trains during the off peak when trains aren't crowded, plus they couldn't send those services down jsut any line if they were a Roma St/Bowen Hills terminator.

[cartel_brisbane]

3 doors per carriage side means less seating and or dedicated facilities (such as bike racks or luggage space) presumable.

Bring back the SX sets. They had reversible seating.

[dwb]

metro-fication.

4 door cars
2x + 1x seating and sections of 2x + longitudinal
many more hold/lean points
above door line specific station information

[#Metro]

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2009/09/17/1225775/665183-seats.jpg

A similar scheme should be adopted for short, high speed and frequent commuter trips.
Maximize standing room. All flip-down seats along interior sides only. Lots of hand grab-holds.
Get as many people onto trains as possible.

Thanks for the link!
They have a TV!

I'm very disappointed that bicycle hooks are not trialled in trains as they would not be "efficient use of space". Really?
Its important to provide for all regular users. The disabled, people with seeing/hearing dogs, people with luggage, people with prams etc.
Folding bikes are not an option. Accommodation for standard bicycles should be normal. Bike parking and lockers don't cut it either, they need to be able to take the bike inside the train.

I think QR will increasingly find people flouting the bike rules, if you don't accommodate, people will simply disobey.
Bicycles are taking off. The sales of bicycles outstripped car sales for the 9th year I think...

http://www.theage.com.au/national/australians-saddle-up-to-ride-out-tough-times-20090106-7b78.html

AUSTRALIANS' enthusiasm for cycling has continued in tougher economic times, with bicycle sales outstripping car sales for the ninth consecutive year in 2008.

Figures released yesterday showed 1,401,675 bicycles were sold last year, 38 per cent more than the 1,012,164 car sales, with cash-strapped and environmentally conscious consumers leading the trend.

[ButFli]

I think reversible seats are yuck. The not-in-use side gets sh%t all over it from people putting their feet up against it and when it gets changed over you have to lean against it. Also I've always found the reversable seats in Sydney to feel very rickity and uncomfortable.

[Golliwog]

Does anyone have a pic of reversible seating?

I agree that if they can find space for a toilet on the new IMU's why can't they put some bike storage facilities in these spots on the SMU's?

[Arnz]

Does anyone have a pic of reversible seating?

The ICEs that operate to Cooroy and Gympie North (and Nambour on the weekends) have them.  There may be a few pics floating somewhere in Google.

[Derwan]

What's the fascination with reversible seating?  Who really cares which way you sit?  I've known a few people who have suggested sitting "backwards" makes them sick, but generally speaking, there shouldn't be a need for them.  Why add another mechanism that could become faulty and add to maintenance costs?

I'd support 3 doors each side of the carriage, however as stephenk mentioned, they're talking about putting doors on the platforms of the new underground stations, so new trains would either have to be compatible with older trains (i.e. 2 doors) or the station would have to be built for 3 doors and only open the ones necessary depending on what kind of train it is.  There would be less seating, but increased standing room - so increased capacity.

9-car configurations are possible with the current trains.  We just need the stations and signalling upgraded.  Apparently the new underground stations will support 9-car trains - but until other stations are upgraded, the extra length won't be utilised.

[Golliwog]

mmmm, well one hopes that as this 9-car train seems to be some kind of solid future plan for QR, that they have decided to make sure all the stations that get built/upgraded will be long enough for this. I'm thinking the new richlands line and the FG station upgrade. Too bad they hadn't decided this earlier, now the new stations at grovely and oxford park (yeah, i live on the FG line, can't think of any others right now) will have to be upgraded once again.

Yeah ok, I would agree that having reversible seating is something that is totally unneccesary.

[cartel_brisbane]

Does anyone have a pic of reversible seating?

http://thaitransit.blogspot.com/2008/08/srt-queensland-railways-sx-commuter.html

[mufreight]

Build this next generation of trains in three car single ended modules, the space saved by the elimination of the drivers compartment becomes seating and access through the six cars becomes possible.
As a must, MU compatiability with the current buils of SMU/IMU sets to allow for operating flexibility (and future) operation of 9 car sets
Doors, the present double width two door arangement works and while three doors might improve loading times and with the length of most rail commutes the loss of seats is a less than desirable situation for a negligable gain in peak hour operations.  More services is a preferable solution for the present generation.

[somebody]

Build this next generation of trains in three car single ended modules, the space saved by the elimination of the drivers compartment becomes seating and access through the six cars becomes possible.

What about the guard?  Will he/she sit/stand at the far end of the train?  Apparently, that's the plan for the CityRail Waratah trains.

[cartel_brisbane]

That used to be QR policy until the SX sets were loaned to Western Australia for the America's Cup in the 1980s and as a consequence of practice and experience in WA, it was found that having the guard in the middle of the train was better operationally. 

[longboi]

Does anyone have a pic of reversible seating?

http://thaitransit.blogspot.com/2008/08/srt-queensland-railways-sx-commuter.html

Those are latitudinal bench seats.

'Reversible' seats are the ones which you can manually rotate.

[mufreight]

The ICE sets are fitted with rotating seats, the seats in the SX sets were flip over seat backs, they are of simple construction, require little maintenence and as experience with that type of seating as used in Sydney and the SX sets in Brisbane quite robust

[cartel_brisbane]

'Reversible' seats are the ones which you can manually rotate.

Sounds totally pointless and extravagant.

[stephenk]

What's the fascination with reversible seating?  Who really cares which way you sit?  I've known a few people who have suggested sitting "backwards" makes them sick, but generally speaking, there shouldn't be a need for them.  Why add another mechanism that could become faulty and add to maintenance costs?

I agree with these comments 100%.

I would also add that reversible seats make interior design more problematic, for example where do you put fixed vertical handrails when the seats can move? I would also see them as a H&S hazard.

[Jon Bryant]

Does anyone have a pic of reversible seating?

http://thaitransit.blogspot.com/2008/08/srt-queensland-railways-sx-commuter.html

Now doesn't that bring back school time memories. 

[Otto]

Does anyone have a pic of reversible seating?

http://thaitransit.blogspot.com/2008/08/srt-queensland-railways-sx-commuter.html

Now doesn't that bring back school time memories. 

When the rest of Brisbane was enjoying being hauled around in nice shiney SX sets, Us folk down on the LOTA line were still travelling around  in Red Rattlers !!

[brad C]

Otto
The first SX cars to venture south of the river occurred on the South Brisbane to Beenleigh line following the 1978 opening of the Merivale Bridge.
Stations on that line had been progressively raised and lengthened from about mid 1977.Where it was not feasible to undertake such improvements (Nyanda and Gloucester Street), these stations were closed, corresponding to the post merivale bridge timetable and the introduction of through corridors.
Apart from Lindum and Lota where higher platforms had been provided in the 1950s, all platforms on the Lota branch were raised and lengthened, the first being Cannon Hill in June 1980, the last occurring at Wynnum Central and Wynnum in mid 1981. Doboy factory presented some logistical problems until it was closed with the Thorneside extension timetable.
The first SX set to venture down to the 'seaside' was on an exhibition special on the Tuesday of exhibition week in 1981.

[Otto]

Was'nt Nyanda station positioned so it would be handy for the Station Master to quickly open and close the swing gates on Beaudesert Road for the safe passage of trains ? ( before Boomgates were installed )

[mufreight]

Nyanda station was to provide a station for workers at the engineering works of Evans Deaken and other industries that were located there, the Beaudesert Road gates were controlled from the signal box.
As an aside on the standard gauge the section Clapham to Nyanda which had no crossing loop with the next section then being Nyanda to Greenbank was used to enable the operation of trains on SG from Clapham into the Commonwealth Engineering and English Electric plants. the location of the points off the SG main line and the position of the level crossing limited the length of the platform at Nyanda for the Queensland trains.

[tronixstuff]

Assuming that once the current order of trains is up and the next order of trains are of a new design what are people hoping to see.

1. 3 doors per carriage
2. reversible seating
3. Better PIDs ( showing next few stations etc)

1. 3 doors - yes. Could even retrofit this into older sets - shouldn't be too hard.
2. Fixed is fine. The less moving parts, the longer something lasts.
3. Absolutely. As long as they can display real-time service interruptions. My partner is deaf, and it is difficult for her to ask other passengers what is being announced.
4. No more 'plug doors'... take too long to open
5. Modify one carriage of IMUs  to 2+1 seats, put in a cold drink machine, make sure the toilet works, wireless internet, no standees, lock it off to the rest of the train. Have the ability to book seats via the net (extra seating fee out of gocard account), or if free seats available you touch your gocard on a reader above the seat. I'm sure QR could book this out every weekday on the GC line for regular commuters. Works with JR-East. Or lease out the carriage to a private operator and let them take the risk.
6. A bicycle hook trial, see how that works out.

[Arnz]

5. Modify one carriage of IMUs  to 2+1 seats, put in a cold drink machine, make sure the toilet works, wireless internet, no standees, lock it off to the rest of the train. Have the ability to book seats via the net (extra seating fee out of gocard account), or if free seats available you touch your gocard on a reader above the seat. I'm sure QR could book this out every weekday on the GC line for regular commuters. Works with JR-East. Or lease out the carriage to a private operator and let them take the risk.

Definitely something for the "trainspotter fantasy file".

And besides, that idea is more suited for longer distances eg Gympie North (and to some extent Nambour).  Gold Coast trips take just over an hour.  Gympie North trips takes under 3hrs.

[Jon Bryant]

Can we stop using the term "trainspotter fantasy file".  This is a site for posting ideas and thinking out of the box.  Sure some ideas are a little far fetched but companies such as 3M and ther innovative companies require staff to spend up to 30% of their time working on 'out there' ideas.  That us how we've ended up with Post It Notes.  How about suggesting modifications to make it more realistic rather than just pooho an idea.

PS not sure working toliets is such a way out idea by the way.   

[Golliwog]

It'd be a great thing to have happen. But I think at the stage we're in at the moment with regards to train overcrowding, the idea of taking one of 6 cars and making it more expensive is just going to increase over crowding in the other 5 cars. Which will lead to more complaints and the need for more services, which Translink seems to be fight tooth and nail to not give us anytime soon.

[#Metro]

Can we stop using the term "trainspotter fantasy file".  This is a site for posting ideas and thinking out of the box.

"New ideas pass through three periods:

1) It can't be done.
2) It probably can be done, but it's not worth doing.
3) I knew it was a good idea all along!" — Sir Arthur C. Clarke

Regular Ekka loop services took this path

5. Modify one carriage of IMUs  to 2+1 seats, put in a cold drink machine, make sure the toilet works, wireless internet, no standees, lock it off to the rest of the train. Have the ability to book seats via the net (extra seating fee out of gocard account), or if free seats available you touch your gocard on a reader above the seat. I'm sure QR could book this out every weekday on the GC line for regular commuters. Works with JR-East. Or lease out the carriage to a private operator and let them take the risk.

The funny thing is

CityCat has:
1. Toilet
2. Drink machine with water bottle $2 (yes, seats were removed for this)
3. Bike racks, bikes ok inside vehicle (come on trains and buses, catch up!)
4. Wireless internet (in the future, a simple 4G hotspot/strong signal might suffice)
5. Television with the news and advertising
6. Working GoCard system
7. Using ferries which have been sold off, leased-back and operator is privatised through a franchise
8.  PIDs on the top of the ferry for destination information
9. Military-style night vision so that rowers don't get driven over

Now all the operators have to do is offer ferry hire for parties etc when not in use.
And the CityCat's most popular, busy day? Sunday afternoons!

Peoples expectations of service levels are going to increase and increase.
You don't innovate by standing still.
Bicycles on trains (yes during peak hour and in their own dedicated space) and phone/internet coverage along the line and in underground tunnels are things to look at. You just have to talk with the commuters and consider trials were appropriate.

Sure some of the ideas will not see the light of day, but this is simply a normal part of the process of how ideas evolve.
Ideas take a while to develop and constructive criticism is important...

[stephenk]

Can we stop using the term "trainspotter fantasy file".     

As I'm the person who coined the phrase, I will personally stop using it when some people start to be more realistic with ideas, or actually think their idea through before posting it.

Can we stop using the term "trainspotter fantasy file".  This is a site for posting ideas and thinking out of the box.

"New ideas pass through three periods:

1) It can't be done.
2) It probably can be done, but it's not worth doing.
3) I knew it was a good idea all along!" — Sir Arthur C. Clarke

Regular Ekka loop services took this path

Regular Ekka loop services are still in the land of the fantasy.
The first CRR line may use part of the alignment on extra tracks, but they are not Ekka loop services.

People will be suggesting running steam trains in passenger service three days in a row next! 

[longboi]

Can we stop using the term "trainspotter fantasy file".

As I'm the person who coined the phrase, I will personally stop using it when some people start to be more realistic with ideas, or actually think their idea through before posting it.

From now on any catchphrase has a shelf life of 2 weeks =P

[#Metro]

So where were we. 3 doors per carriage?
4 doors is too many, I don't know how this will work without turning the entire side of the train into doors and having no seats.

[Golliwog]

a) I think 3 doors per car, per side would be plenty.

b) I cannot see how putting a drink vending machine on a train could be justified. I see putting a vending machine on train platforms as a better option as the space there is not such a rare commodity.

c) I don't see why you can't put bike racks in the trains in the same location as they have toilets on the IMUs. Not major racks or anything, that way if theres no bikes on your service, passengers can still stand in that space.

d) I think TVs would be an interesting idea, but would be a bit hesitant in putting them in trains. I can only see them being targetted by vandals and being broken in some way.

e) QR has already said that they were going to trial introducing wifi onto the rail network. Haven't heard anything since the initial announcement though. I don't see this as a neccessity, but would definatly be of use.

f) I don't see the need for reversible seating, as has been pointed out here, it's just another thing to get broken.