New Generation Rollingstock

[MichaelJ]

A 700 was scheduled to go up for rectification works around this time so there may be one there.

[ozbob]

QUESTION ON NOTICE

https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2019/1677-2019.pdf

ASKED

Tuesday, 22 October 2019

Answer Due: Thursday, 21 November 2019

1677 MR M CRANDON ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS (HON M BAILEY)
With reference to the Queensland Rail Citytrain fleet—

Will the Minister provide an update on (a) the progress of the NGR train rectifications being undertaken by
Downer EDI, (b) the timetable for the overhaul of the ten IMU three-carriage trains and the twelve three
carriage SMU 200 series trains and (c) the number of further new trains required to meet the Cross River
Rail schedule for services?

[achiruel]

Onboard 727 this morning. Brakes are very noisy!

[red dragin]

Report on one of the Facebook groups this morning, that 775 has been unloaded at Port of Brisbane overnight.

[MichaelJ]

Onboard 727 this morning. Brakes are very noisy!

I'm keen to find out where the source of the problem is because systems like this aren't new. Our Millennium, Oscar and Waratah don't do this.

[ozbob]

Interesting ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1191495024199946245

" ... rectifying first non compliant NGR train ordered  ...  "

seems to suggest it is NGR 701 ( or was ... ).

[HappyTrainGuy]

735.

[ozbob]

735.

Ok, thanks.

[HappyTrainGuy]

735.

Ok, thanks.

701 should still be travelling around with a busted door 

[SurfRail]

Onboard 727 this morning. Brakes are very noisy!

I'm keen to find out where the source of the problem is because systems like this aren't new. Our Millennium, Oscar and Waratah don't do this.

Nor do the 160s or 260s. 

It really is pretty noticeable.  Certain sets clearly worse than others (eg 727). 

Come and sit at Park Road or the city end of Roma St on your next trip back up here and you can enjoy the full-on experience of the brakes and insanely loud flange squeal combined.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1191537075285188609

[not_available]

Hold your horses ...  this 701 may not be the original 701.  Some suggestion that a couple of units might have been renumbered.

Appears that NGR 701 is not the original NGR 701.   Sources suggest 701 is actually original 770, 770 is another renumbered unit.   

Waiting for final confirmation.

So both the 701 i was on today and the 770 at banyo are both not what they claim to be?
(Also 701 has thee indigenous wrap)

[ozbob]

Still waiting confirmation either way.

[JimmyP]

701 is 701 and 770 is 770. There was no number change.

[not_available]

701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710
711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 3719 720
721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730
731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740
741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750
751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760
761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770
___ ___ ___ ___ ___

[Otto]

701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710
711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720
721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730
731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740
741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750
751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760
761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770
___ ___ ___ ___ ___

Saw 770 at Cleveland on Friday. Unfortunately, it had been graffitied.

[ozbob]

All 75 NGRs are in country. 

Be interesting to see if there is a direct response to this QON (c), other than the ' ... plan for the rail revolution is still being working out ' or equivalent ... 

QUESTION ON NOTICE

https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2019/1677-2019.pdf

ASKED

Tuesday, 22 October 2019

Answer Due: Thursday, 21 November 2019

1677 MR M CRANDON ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS (HON M BAILEY)
With reference to the Queensland Rail Citytrain fleet—

Will the Minister provide an update on (a) the progress of the NGR train rectifications being undertaken by
Downer EDI, (b) the timetable for the overhaul of the ten IMU three-carriage trains and the twelve three
carriage SMU 200 series trains and (c) the number of further new trains required to meet the Cross River
Rail schedule for services?

[ozbob]

QUESTION ON NOTICE

https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2019/1677-2019.pdf

ASKED

Tuesday, 22 October 2019

Answer Due: Thursday, 21 November 2019

1677 MR M CRANDON ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS (HON M BAILEY)
With reference to the Queensland Rail Citytrain fleet—

Will the Minister provide an update on (a) the progress of the NGR train rectifications being undertaken by
Downer EDI, (b) the timetable for the overhaul of the ten IMU three-carriage trains and the twelve three
carriage SMU 200 series trains and (c) the number of further new trains required to meet the Cross River
Rail schedule for services?

https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2019/1677-2019.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 1677
Asked on Tuesday 22 October 2019

MR M CRANDON ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS (HON M BAILEY)

QUESTION:
With reference to the Queensland Rail Citytrain fleet—

Will the Minister provide an update on (a) the progress of the NGR train rectifications being
undertaken by Downer EDI, (b) the timetable for the overhaul of the ten IMU three-carriage trains
and the twelve three carriage SMU 200 series trains and (c) the number of further new trains
required to meet the Cross River Rail schedule for services?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Coomera for the question.

It is important that the Member note that, as the New Generation Rollingstock Train Commission of
Inquiry laid out in detail, the New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) trains were ordered by the
Newman Government and '[T] the Commission was advised that the critical decision to reduce the
number of toilets on the NGR train, as well as the decision to remove the intermediate guard cab,
was driven by the former Director-General of TMR, Mr Michael Caltabiano' (page 37).

The Palaszczuk Government is fixing the mess created by the former LNP Government, its handpicked Director-General, and its decision to build these trains from overseas and not in Queensland.

a) The delivery of the $335.7 million NGR accessibility upgrades is proceeding on-schedule. The
first NGR train to undergo the upgrades arrived at the Downer rail plant in Maryborough on
29 October 2019. The first train will be back in passenger services in 2020, with all 75 NGR
trains upgraded and back in service by 2024, prior to the opening of the Cross River Rail
infrastructure.

The NGR accessibility upgrades will deliver the most accessible fleet Queensland has ever
seen, and will include:

• the addition of a second accessible toilet module on every NGR train
• a 10 per cent increase in circulation space inside the toilet modules
• improved sink design
• more grab/handrails
• an increase in priority seats, from 24 to 88 per train.

The design of the upgrades came after intensive consultation with a Project Working Group
from the disability sector, using an innovative co-design process.
The upgrades will also provide an important jobs boost for Maryborough. The accessibility
upgrades will sustain existing jobs at the Downer plant in Maryborough, as well as creating
new positions – with up to 100 people working on the upgrades at their peak.

b) The contract to overhaul Queensland Rail's IMU100 and SMU200 fleet was awarded to
Downer in November 2018. The project is progressing as planned and is currently in the
design phase, with designs due to be completed in early-2020.

Following this, and depending on the resultant schedule, completion of works is currently
anticipated to be:
• late-2020: first two SMU200 trains (prototypes)
• late-2020: first two IMU100 trains (prototypes)
• late-2022: remaining 10 SMU200 and eight IMU100 trains.

Queensland Rail is working closely with the NGR team to accommodate the required NGR
rectification works and carefully coordinates its own rollingstock overhauls to ensure
continued availability of suitable rollingstock to deliver timetabled services.

c) Cross River Rail is a once-in-a-generation project that will transform South East Queensland's
rail network. By unlocking the bottleneck at the core of the network, it will create a second
inner-city river crossing and allow more trains to run more often.

To deliver extra timetabled services in the future, the existing passenger rollingstock fleet will
need to expand. The number of trains required will be determined by a range of factors which
include passenger demand, service frequency and the underlying rail infrastructure.
There are long lead times associated with fleet procurement, so early consideration of fleet
procurement has begun. As part of this process, the Queensland Government will consider
options for local supply of the new trains.

While the Queensland Government recently completed a process to procure 75 new six-car
passenger trains for South East Queensland (that is, NGR), many of these will replace the
old electric multiple units as they are retired.

The Department of Transport and Main Roads will continue to develop the passenger
rollingstock fleet consideration throughout 2019 and 2020. These considerations will be a
matter for government consideration.

[ozbob]

^ least there is an acknowledgement that more trains are need.  I don't have any confidence that TMR will get it right though.

Their history of rail related debacles is a good one:  botched station upgrades, RPL, NGRs, Cattle Wagons ... CRR?

[City Designer]

Spotted 771 in revenue service at Coomera station this afternoon.

[LRV 018]

772 is in service too. I'm sitting on it right now on a Gold Coast service.

[City Designer]

775 was in service tonight at South Brisbane station.

[achiruel]

I think the best thing for now would be to extend the NGR order to 100, with modifications for PWD.

Any completely new design will likely not be deliverable in time to meet requirements.

[STB]

I think the best thing for now would be to extend the NGR order to 100, with modifications for PWD.

Any completely new design will likely not be deliverable in time to meet requirements.

Yeah nah, after what happened with the NGRs, and the Government's and public's view that any new trains needs to be built in Australia/Qld, not India, aka Downer will have a new design for any future trains.

[verbatim9]

I think the best thing for now would be to extend the NGR order to 100, with modifications for PWD.

Any completely new design will likely not be deliverable in time to meet requirements.

Yeah nah, after what happened with the NGRs, and the Government's and public's view that any new trains needs to be built in Australia/Qld, not India, aka Downer will have a new design for any future trains.

Why will Downer be the only company bidding for new train manufacturing? Isn't that an anti competitive tendering process? Is it really the consensus of the majority to have trains built Maryborough? Or does the Public want safe well built trains built at a competitive price that is not a drain on tax payer resources?

[Gazza]

But the consensus would probably be that the Maryborough built trains were good value for taxpayers money and did the job well, and the overseas built trains were more of a risk in terms of delivery delays and reliability.

[verbatim9]

But the consensus would probably be that the Maryborough built trains were good value for taxpayers money and did the job well, and the overseas built trains were more of a risk in terms of delivery delays and reliability.

Another thing is that what features can be offered by a manufacturer? Downer might not have the patents nor the technological know how to build modern trains for the future. They would also have to spend 100's of millions to build or upgrade to a semi autonomous facility to be competitive. They would need to win other contracts around the world to build and export trains as well to ensure a modern manufacturing facility remains viable.

I guess if Qld wants trains built for 1990s standards then Downer could do it? But maybe not for the 2020's or 2030's.

[Gazza]

I daresay the Indian factory wouldn't be that automated.

[verbatim9]

I daresay the Indian factory wouldn't be that automated.

But they have very cheap labour.

[achiruel]

But the consensus would probably be that the Maryborough built trains were good value for taxpayers money and did the job well, and the overseas built trains were more of a risk in terms of delivery delays and reliability.

Another thing is that what features can be offered by a manufacturer? Downer might not have the patents nor the technological know how to build modern trains for the future. They would also have to spend 100's of millions to build or upgrade to a semi autonomous facility to be competitive. They would need to win other contracts around the world to build and export trains as well to ensure a modern manufacturing facility remains viable.

I guess if Qld wants trains built for 1990s standards then Downer could do it? But maybe not for the 2020's or 2030's.

Downer can only build trains for the 1990s, can they? Are you suggesting the TransPerth B-Sets and QR IMI160s are built to 1990s standards? I find that unlikely, considering they were delivered between 2008-2019.
Also, Downer are involved in the JVs to supply Sydney Trains B sets and new Melbourne Metro trains.

[verbatim9]

But the consensus would probably be that the Maryborough built trains were good value for taxpayers money and did the job well, and the overseas built trains were more of a risk in terms of delivery delays and reliability.

Another thing is that what features can be offered by a manufacturer? Downer might not have the patents nor the technological know how to build modern trains for the future. They would also have to spend 100's of millions to build or upgrade to a semi autonomous facility to be competitive. They would need to win other contracts around the world to build and export trains as well to ensure a modern manufacturing facility remains viable.

I guess if Qld wants trains built for 1990s standards then Downer could do it? But maybe not for the 2020's or 2030's.

Downer can only build trains for the 1990s, can they? Are you suggesting the TransPerth B-Sets and QR IMI160s are built to 1990s standards? I find that unlikely, considering they were delivered between 2008-2019.
Also, Downer are involved in the JVs to supply Sydney Trains B sets and new Melbourne Metro trains.

Perth have gone to Alstom

New NSW trains built a.in South Korea

Downer haven't been involved in the full length of the manufacturing process for years locally

Same with Melbourne trains most.of the manufacturing is done overseas

[verbatim9]

But the consensus would probably be that the Maryborough built trains were good value for taxpayers money and did the job well, and the overseas built trains were more of a risk in terms of delivery delays and reliability.

Another thing is that what features can be offered by a manufacturer? Downer might not have the patents nor the technological know how to build modern trains for the future. They would also have to spend 100's of millions to build or upgrade to a semi autonomous facility to be competitive. They would need to win other contracts around the world to build and export trains as well to ensure a modern manufacturing facility remains viable.

I guess if Qld wants trains built for 1990s standards then Downer could do it? But maybe not for the 2020's or 2030's.

Downer can only build trains for the 1990s, can they? Are you suggesting the TransPerth B-Sets and QR IMI160s are built to 1990s standards? I find that unlikely, considering they were delivered between 2008-2019.
Also, Downer are involved in the JVs to supply Sydney Trains B sets and new Melbourne Metro trains.

Perth have gone to Alstom

New NSW trains built a.in South Korea

Downer haven't been involved in the full length of the manufacturing process for years locally

Same with Melbourne trains most.of the manufacturing is done overseas

As much as everyone wants to have and believe that train manufacturing is viable.in
Australia. It won't happen until an International company pumps millions into a semi or fully autonomous facility to bypass most of the labour costs involved The facility would also need to make trains for other jurisdictions in the world for export to remain viable. Same goes with other manufacturing in Australia.

A good model is the Bne Metro project where metro vehicles are made predominately overseas with an internal fitout to suit done here locally. That's economically responsible.

It's also been well publicised that they way forward for Australia's manufacturing sector is to provide small components for larger autonomous manufacturing overseas. This will  provide sustained growth in the manufacturing sector. Large scale affordable autonomous manufacturing may come to Australia in the future, but I can't see it happening right now.

It's great that some people around Maryborough have had the opportunity to learn new skills with the temporary jobs of fitting out the trains. These jobs are likely to be temporary but it does give the opportunity for the these people to broaden their horizons to look elsewhere for work and advance their careers when the time comes.

Maryborough may well become a fitout facility for trains that are manufactured overseas but there are no guarantees.

[achiruel]

^ congratulations on demonstrating your ignorance once again!

Yes, the Perth C sets will be made by Alstom. This doesn't alter the fact that Downer EDI in Maryborough were delivering B sets until 2019.

NSW B Sets are not being built in South Korea. They are being built in China, but under contract to and a design by Downer, so your specious claim that Downer doesn't have the technology for 21st century rolling stock has just been blown to pieces.

As per above, your claim that "Downer haven't been involved in the full length of the manufacturing process for years locally" is utter bullsh*t, considering the final TransPerth B set was delivered in April 2019, less than 12 months ago.

As for the Melbourne trains, they will have 60% local content, once again you're pulling a fast one claiming most of the manufacturing will be done overseas, when primarily the bodies well be made overseas, and much of the equipment and fit-out will be done in Australia.

You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with destroying Australian manufacturing jobs, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you are a member of the LNP who have the same attitude, but either way, your tendency to use specious arguments and outright lies to support your views is disgraceful.

[verbatim9]

^ congratulations on demonstrating your ignorance once again!

Yes, the Perth C sets will be made by Alstom. This doesn't alter the fact that Downer EDI in Maryborough were delivering B sets until 2019.

NSW B Sets are not being built in South Korea. They are being built in China, but under contract to and a design by Downer, so your specious claim that Downer doesn't have the technology for 21st century rolling stock has just been blown to pieces.

As per above, your claim that "Downer haven't been involved in the full length of the manufacturing process for years locally" is utter bullsh*t, considering the final TransPerth B set was delivered in April 2019, less than 12 months ago.

As for the Melbourne trains, they will have 60% local content, once again you're pulling a fast one claiming most of the manufacturing will be done overseas, when primarily the bodies well be made overseas, and much of the equipment and fit-out will be done in Australia.

You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with destroying Australian manufacturing jobs, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you are a member of the LNP who have the same attitude, but either way, your tendency to use specious arguments and outright lies to support your views is disgraceful.

This is just an emotional unviable  response that won't offer sustained economic manufacturing growth in Australia. I have stated in detail an explanation above that has nothing to do with left or right politics.

[Gazza]

It won't happen until an International company pumps millions into a semi or fully autonomous facility to bypass most of the labour costs involved

I don't think that's even necessary. Just maintain the status quo, do incremental upgrades of our local plants, and keep building trains primarily for the domestic market.

It's a false choice that its either cheap imports or a highly automated local plant geared to export.

[timh]

I don't have a problem with Downer doing the manufacturing. They seem perfectly competent at their job, and I have confidence they'll be able to deliver a modern spec. I'm happy to keep the jobs local and I'm fairly sure that's a general consensus among most of the populus too

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[STB]

^ congratulations on demonstrating your ignorance once again!

Yes, the Perth C sets will be made by Alstom. This doesn't alter the fact that Downer EDI in Maryborough were delivering B sets until 2019.

NSW B Sets are not being built in South Korea. They are being built in China, but under contract to and a design by Downer, so your specious claim that Downer doesn't have the technology for 21st century rolling stock has just been blown to pieces.

As per above, your claim that "Downer haven't been involved in the full length of the manufacturing process for years locally" is utter bullsh*t, considering the final TransPerth B set was delivered in April 2019, less than 12 months ago.

As for the Melbourne trains, they will have 60% local content, once again you're pulling a fast one claiming most of the manufacturing will be done overseas, when primarily the bodies well be made overseas, and much of the equipment and fit-out will be done in Australia.

You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with destroying Australian manufacturing jobs, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you are a member of the LNP who have the same attitude, but either way, your tendency to use specious arguments and outright lies to support your views is disgraceful.

This is just an emotional unviable  response that won't offer sustained economic manufacturing growth in Australia. I have stated in detail an explanation above that has nothing to do with left or right politics.

Not saying that you support the LNP or are a member but, that's a general LNP viewpoint you posted earlier, given that generally the ALP and left side of politics generally supports local manufacturing and workers rights.

[verbatim9]

I don't have a problem with Downer doing the manufacturing. They seem perfectly competent at their job, and I have confidence they'll be able to deliver a modern spec. I'm happy to keep the jobs local and I'm fairly sure that's a general consensus among most of the populus too

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

^^Timh there has been no surveys done to support consensus of local train manufacturing and the associated costs of doing so.

[STB]

I don't have a problem with Downer doing the manufacturing. They seem perfectly competent at their job, and I have confidence they'll be able to deliver a modern spec. I'm happy to keep the jobs local and I'm fairly sure that's a general consensus among most of the populus too

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

^^Timh there has been no surveys done to support consensus of local train manufacturing and the associated costs of doing so.

I think Timh was pointing out his own personal point of view, not the community point of view.

[timh]

I don't have a problem with Downer doing the manufacturing. They seem perfectly competent at their job, and I have confidence they'll be able to deliver a modern spec. I'm happy to keep the jobs local and I'm fairly sure that's a general consensus among most of the populus too

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

^^Timh there has been no surveys done to support consensus of local train manufacturing and the associated costs of doing so.

I think Timh was pointing out his own personal point of view, not the community point of view.

Ya. Not tryna quote a survey or anything. Just in my anecdotal observations, Ive never heard the opinion among the general public that it'd be good to take the jobs away from Maryborough and move them off shore, or that somehow Downer are incompetent...

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk