RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: achiruel on August 05, 2023, 08:50:04 AMI'm not overly bothered about a couple of prototypes being built in South Korea, but I'm wondering why they can't be converted to regular rollingstock and become part of the order—so 67 trains instead of 65. Is it because they're likely to have unredeemable faults as part of the prototyping process?

Purely guessing here, but I'd imagine they'll probably be chopping them up and messing with them too much for them to actually pass safety qualifications for regular passenger service.

Sent to all outlets:

Re: Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP) costings

7th August 2023

Good Morning,

We hope that there is a response today to our request for a breakup of the QTMP costings.

A program that is now costed at $9.5 billion needs to clarified for all Queensland citizens.

With Transport Estimates on tomorrow, I would think clarification is a priority.

Thank you.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on August 05, 2023, 09:19:35 AMSent to all outlets:

Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP) costings

5th August 2023

Greetings,

We are writing to request a cost breakup for the Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP).

Queensland citizens are very confused, as we are at RAIL Back On Track.

In a Government Statement on the 30th June 2023 ( Maryborough's Downer locked in as Queensland's rail manufacturing powerhouse https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/98096 ) it was announced that Downer had signed a contract to deliver 65 passenger trains for $4.6 billion.  In the same statement it went on to indicate that the QTMP program was $7.1 billion.

Subsequent to this statement TMR updated the Queensland Train Manufacturing Program website to state that the cost of program is $9.5 billion.
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/programs/queensland-train-manufacturing-program

What then is the cost breakup?  We assume the  unit cost of the 65 trains is $4.6 billion which is $71 million for each six car train.

What comprises the additional cost items of $4.9 billion ($9.5 billion - $4.6 billion).

Maintenance? For how many years?

Test track?

Torbanlea manufacturing facility?
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/torbanlea-manufacturing-facility

Ormeau rail facility?
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/ormeau-rail-facility

We note that no cost is given for the Torbanlea manufacturing facility and the Ormeau rail facility on the respective websites.

We are saddened that a lack of transparency and bumbling incompetence has detracted from what is a very positive thing that the trains will be manufactured in Queensland.

Can this mess please be clarified promptly?

Thank you.

Regards
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1688309248764379136

 

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1688463636602273792

Pity, they haven't answered our request for a cost breakup 

Well well 

Image from the video in the 9 News tweet above ..

Sent to all outlets:

Re[2]: Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP) costings

8th August 2023

Good Morning,

Well well,  9 News have reported that the cause of the QTMP cost escalation is " due to the additional scope of the program, and external labour and commodity escalations "

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1688463636602273792
image from tweet (xeet) 
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=3617;image




We are still waiting for a full cost breakup of the QTMP.  What does the $9.5 billion actually include? 

Sadly this is now high farce!  Bumbling incompetence and mediocrity.

Not cheered!

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on August 07, 2023, 00:38:04 AMSent to all outlets:

Re: Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP) costings

7th August 2023

Good Morning,

We hope that there is a response today to our request for a breakup of the QTMP costings.

A program that is now costed at $9.5 billion needs to clarified for all Queensland citizens.

With Transport Estimates on tomorrow, I would think clarification is a priority.

Thank you.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on August 05, 2023, 09:19:35 AMSent to all outlets:

Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP) costings

5th August 2023

Greetings,

We are writing to request a cost breakup for the Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP).

Queensland citizens are very confused, as we are at RAIL Back On Track.

In a Government Statement on the 30th June 2023 ( Maryborough's Downer locked in as Queensland's rail manufacturing powerhouse https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/98096 ) it was announced that Downer had signed a contract to deliver 65 passenger trains for $4.6 billion.  In the same statement it went on to indicate that the QTMP program was $7.1 billion.

Subsequent to this statement TMR updated the Queensland Train Manufacturing Program website to state that the cost of program is $9.5 billion.
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/programs/queensland-train-manufacturing-program

What then is the cost breakup?  We assume the  unit cost of the 65 trains is $4.6 billion which is $71 million for each six car train.

What comprises the additional cost items of $4.9 billion ($9.5 billion - $4.6 billion).

Maintenance? For how many years?

Test track?

Torbanlea manufacturing facility?
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/torbanlea-manufacturing-facility

Ormeau rail facility?
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/ormeau-rail-facility

We note that no cost is given for the Torbanlea manufacturing facility and the Ormeau rail facility on the respective websites.

We are saddened that a lack of transparency and bumbling incompetence has detracted from what is a very positive thing that the trains will be manufactured in Queensland.

Can this mess please be clarified promptly?

Thank you.

Regards
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Mangocube might be too busy swatting up for Budget Estimates to give an answer immediately.

Quote from: Stillwater on August 08, 2023, 03:01:23 AMMangocube might be too busy swatting up for Budget Estimates to give an answer immediately.

If some ' honourable ' Member doesn't ask the question in estimates they should all resign!!

It happened. It exists.

Reminds me of:

Under questioning in Estimates:

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/qld-politics/queensland-parliament-live-blog-transport-minister-to-be-grilled-over-24bn-train-budget-blowout/live-coverage/190b077cc79a27993d70a6a0f9c4b7b7

Acting Director General Sally Stannard has broken down the scope for the $9.5bn train program.

One contract worth $4.6bn signed with Downer which includes scope to:

– Build a manufacturing facility at Torbanlea
– Build 65 trains
– Maintain the trains for 15 years.

The remaining funds outside this (which is $4.9bn):

– Costs for Queensland Rail and TMR to participate in, and manage, the program
– Additional scope for on-network stabling places (a train carpark)
– Provision for track to connect the operating train line to Torbanlea factory.
– A 10km test track as it would reduce the time in getting trains to operational service.
– 20 years of additional train maintenance divvied up as four contracts in five year increments, which have not gone to market.
– Small contingency cash reserve.

====

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1688718707932225536

Sent to all outlets:

Re[3]: Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP) costings

8th August 2023

Greetings,

Finally.  Why is everything so damn hard in Queensland?

Under questioning in Estimates:

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/qld-politics/queensland-parliament-live-blog-transport-minister-to-be-grilled-over-24bn-train-budget-blowout/live-coverage/190b077cc79a27993d70a6a0f9c4b7b7

Acting Director General Sally Stannard has broken down the scope for the $9.5bn train program.

One contract worth $4.6 billion signed with Downer which includes scope to:

– Build a manufacturing facility at Torbanlea
– Build 65 trains
– Maintain the trains for 15 years.

The remaining funds outside this (which is $4.9 billion):

– Costs for Queensland Rail and TMR to participate in, and manage, the program
– Additional scope for on-network stabling places (a train carpark)
– Provision for track to connect the operating train line to Torbanlea factory.
– A 10km test track as it would reduce the time in getting trains to operational service.
– 20 years of additional train maintenance divvied up as four contracts in five year increments, which have not gone to market.
– Small contingency cash reserve.

====

That's  what we wanted to know.  Thank you Ms Stannard for the information (albeit via Estimates).

Could have saved a lot of kerfuffle by the Government being transparent up front hey?

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on August 08, 2023, 00:43:28 AMSent to all outlets:

Re[2]: Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP) costings

8th August 2023

Good Morning,

Well well,  9 News have reported that the cause of the QTMP cost escalation is " due to the additional scope of the program, and external labour and commodity escalations "

Code Select Expand

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1688463636602273792
image from tweet (xeet) 
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=3617;image




We are still waiting for a full cost breakup of the QTMP.  What does the $9.5 billion actually include? 

Sadly this is now high farce!  Bumbling incompetence and mediocrity.

Not cheered!

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on August 07, 2023, 00:38:04 AMSent to all outlets:

Re: Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP) costings

7th August 2023

Good Morning,

We hope that there is a response today to our request for a breakup of the QTMP costings.

A program that is now costed at $9.5 billion needs to clarified for all Queensland citizens.

With Transport Estimates on tomorrow, I would think clarification is a priority.

Thank you.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on August 05, 2023, 09:19:35 AMSent to all outlets:

Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP) costings

5th August 2023

Greetings,

We are writing to request a cost breakup for the Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP).

Queensland citizens are very confused, as we are at RAIL Back On Track.

In a Government Statement on the 30th June 2023 ( Maryborough's Downer locked in as Queensland's rail manufacturing powerhouse https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/98096 ) it was announced that Downer had signed a contract to deliver 65 passenger trains for $4.6 billion.  In the same statement it went on to indicate that the QTMP program was $7.1 billion.

Subsequent to this statement TMR updated the Queensland Train Manufacturing Program website to state that the cost of program is $9.5 billion.
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/programs/queensland-train-manufacturing-program

What then is the cost breakup?  We assume the  unit cost of the 65 trains is $4.6 billion which is $71 million for each six car train.

What comprises the additional cost items of $4.9 billion ($9.5 billion - $4.6 billion).

Maintenance? For how many years?

Test track?

Torbanlea manufacturing facility?
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/torbanlea-manufacturing-facility

Ormeau rail facility?
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/ormeau-rail-facility

We note that no cost is given for the Torbanlea manufacturing facility and the Ormeau rail facility on the respective websites.

We are saddened that a lack of transparency and bumbling incompetence has detracted from what is a very positive thing that the trains will be manufactured in Queensland.

Can this mess please be clarified promptly?

Thank you.

Regards
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1688722751824207872

    

The next steps would be to find out the actual money allocated to each component of the sums of the $4.6 billion, and the $4.9 billion figures.  But I guess they will try the ' CIC ' stunt for that one.

This has been an amazing demonstration of political incompetence all round.

6 dot points. That's all it took. 

The truly amazing thing to me is how 20 years of maintenance, a stabling yard, and a few km of track in a regional area cost more than 15 years of maintenance, a train factory and actually building the trains!

I'm guessing the 4.9B is in nominal 2038-onward dollars, but still!

Can someone find latest ABC radio news bulletin ... thought it said TMR got an email from Bailey's office asking that lower figure be used in media statements for QTMP costings. Quoted Sally Stannard.

Found this on The Australian site:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE170_a_GGL&dest=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theaustralian.com.au%2Fnation%2Fmark-baileys-office-suggested-department-delete-24bn-train-blowout%2Fnews-story%2F7c0084d042e14444a2e84413d0e8fa90&memtype=anonymous&mode=premium&v21=dynamic-low-test-score&V21spcbehaviour=append

Building trains in Quuueeennsslllaaaaannndddd, is a lot like building nuclear submarines in Australia...or, me "saving a few $$$" and deciding "....hey, I'm doing my own root canal surgery....." even I've got the smarts to, in less than 1.1secs realise "....NO...." - enter, the politician 


"And the winner, for THE Most Expensive per Metre of anything to do with Rail in the developed world is.....Quuuueeennnsssllllaaannndddddd......" 

Ahh, here we go:

ABC News --> Queensland Transport Minister Mark Bailey's staff suggested reference to $9.5b train building project cost be 'deleted', estimates hears

QuoteThe Queensland transport minister's office suggested the department "delete" references to a $9.5 billion train building program from communication material after its cost blew out, budget estimates has heard. ...

Couriermail --> Revealed: What was in leaked email from Bailey's office on train costs $

QuoteA leaked email sent from Transport Minister Mark Bailey's office to the Transport and Main Roads department has exposed the desperation to conceal a $2.4b blowout on the government's flagship train manufacturing program.

TMR Acting Director-General Sally Stannard sensationally revealed during Tuesday's budget estimates the department received an email from Mr Bailey's office on July 3, suggesting TMR delete the true $9.5bn cost of the Queensland Trains Manufacturing Program from communication several days after the final contract was signed.

The email – obtained by Nine – sees Mr Bailey's office cross out a reference to the "$9.5 billion" investment, and asks the department to "delete reference to $9.5 billion and the largest investment in Qld's history. Talk about the $4.6 billion contract with Downer ..." ..."

Fuk ... the spin manipulation exposed 

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1688912503890448384

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1688912107608371201

Hey        you need to pay more attention!     

Clearly fails the 'Pub Test'.

Lucky the error wasn't adding or dropping some extra zeros...

Brisbanetimes -->

QuoteA stuff-up or a cover-up? That was the question that dominated Transport Minister Mark Bailey's time in the budget estimates hot seat on Tuesday, as he was grilled over a $2.4 billion cost blowout of Queensland's train building program.

The LNP opposition has accused Bailey of deliberately misleading Queensland taxpayers over the cost of the government's contract with Downer to build 65 passenger trains in Maryborough, about 220 kilometres north of Brisbane. ...

The accusation from the Opposition that Minister Bailey's office deliberately misled the public over the true cost of Queensland Train Manufacturing Project can't be dismissed as mere political mischief-making. The existence of the email is the smoking gun. In doing her duty (i.e. answering the question honestly), Ms Stannard has thrown her ministerial boss under the political bus. And she must have known that.

The issue here is what Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk will do: (a) rebuke the minister's actions (b) do a bit of a reshuffle to take the TMR portfolio away from Mr Bailey, or (c) seek his resignation, meaning retirement to the backbench. Should the minister's previous actions and form be considered together with this matter?

The most likely outcome will be that a window will be opened high up in the 1 William Street tower and a staffer in Mr Bailey's office will be tossed out. And what of the relationship between Mr Bailey and the Acting D-G, Sally Stannard? Will she now not get the top job full-time? Their meetings would be an icy affair, not to mention the shift in the power balance between ministerial office and the department. There is a lot to be played out here. It is not a case of grubby politics, but of upholding the tenets of the Westminster System of governance and ministerial responsibility. Which way will the Premier jump? 

I will be having a very careful read of the transcript when available (see > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=273725).

My own view is that the acting DG TMR has done the only thing she could have. 
Been truthful. This is a breath of fresh air! Personally I think Mr Bailey will respect that.

Mr Bailey has been suggesting all along that the events that transpired were initiated by Staffers and he was ' out of the loop ' - that may be or may not be the case.  Either way I think Ms Stannard has stamped herself and the TMR with a new rubber stamp.  Change has been affected.



 

The Transport Office lament ...           paying attention      ?

Also the Premier's office, and her conduct in all of this, is yet to be addressed.

To date, she has refused to answer any questions on her part, and her dept's part, in all of this deception.

Yes. We are all inmates of the Queensland asylum and the Premier our very own Nurse Ratched.

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1688826611569700864

Sad, the government now wants to go after the whistleblower, whoever she or he is. Bugger the egregious offense caused.

 

The corruption of government.
Lie to the public.
Hunt down the truth-tellers (whose main crime is embarrassing the liars).

Transport Estimates transcript

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/com/TRC-645B/C20232024-8423/2023_08_08_EstimatesTRC.pdf

Page 6

Ms Stannard: The $9.5 billion provision provides for maintenance over 35 years. We have not yet contracted that maintenance, so on that basis it is an estimate of a future cost that we expect to incur for the maintaining of those trains over their full life.

We have signed one contract with Downer for $4.6 billion, and that includes the scope to build the manufacturing facility at Torbanlea, build the rail facility at Ormeau and manufacture the 65 trains at Torbanlea and maintenance of those trains for 15 years.

The remaining funds outside the $4.6 billion include additional scope items the state has funding for, including cost for Queensland Rail and Transport and Main Roads to participate in and manage the program. There is some additional scope for on-network stabling—places to put the trains when they are not in service. There is the provision for a network connection. That means connecting the operating train line to the facility at Torbanlea. There is also provision for a 10-kilometre test track. During the bidding process, bidders advised that a test track can reduce the risk of time to introduce new trains into operational service and, as a result, the state has provided for that investment in a test track.

There is also the provision in the $9.5 billion for 20 years of additional maintenance, currently envisaged as four five-year increments. That is not currently contracted. We do have a small amount of contingency which we reserve also within that provision.

Mr BLEIJIE: When did the department first come up with the $9.5 billion figure?

Ms Stannard: We did have an early estimate of the total program cost which was published on our website in October 2021. That figure was $7.12 billion. We then went through a procurement process where we received three conforming bids from the bidders that were participating and those bids included optional additions beyond the required scope. It is only at the time when we could see those bids come to us that we had the opportunity to review the alternative options that were provided and, in the process of then negotiating, select which alternatives and additions we wanted to take forward. It is important to note, as the minister outlined in his opening statement: there was significant cost pressure on the market in the period between our original estimate and the receipt of those tenders. The minister has outlined a number of those increases on input costs and no project is immune from the nature of those escalations, particularly projects that include significant civil works, as this project does.

Quote from: aldonius on August 08, 2023, 14:59:02 PMThe truly amazing thing to me is how 20 years of maintenance, a stabling yard, and a few km of track in a regional area cost more than 15 years of maintenance, a train factory and actually building the trains!

I'm guessing the 4.9B is in nominal 2038-onward dollars, but still!

Yes, this does seem very imbalanced Aldo.  We need to try to find out the costing for each component.

Any chance that test track could be made about 25km long instead of 10km long, and perhaps even point it  in a NNE direction out of Maryborough 

I'm not losing sleep over this.

The decision has been made to fabricate the trains here.  That in my view was a mistake from the lens of what is best for the public transport system, but not "wrong".

The end figure is basically a program that covers 35 years worth of work for the whole delivery and sustainment.  A lot of farting around could have been prevented if they had been clearer with the breakdown.

The "blowout" is primarily the State including more line items in the budget of the program, ie widening the scope of what is in the count because it now extends to additional things that would have been needed anyway (eg sustainment for years 16-35, stabling yards etc).

Can anybody recall if the NGR program cost included the additional stabling yards built for them, or were those accounted for differently?

Hi SR,
The rail stabling for the NGR's at Woombye, Elimbah, Robina and Banyo was included in the $4.4 billion NGR works, as was the new Wulkaraka Maintenance Centre.
The stabling costs were announced separately as $116 million for the 4 locations, but all under the NGR budget.

Quote from: Gazza on August 09, 2023, 14:25:07 PMAny chance that test track could be made about 25km long instead of 10km long, and perhaps even point it  in a NNE direction out of Maryborough 

One can dream, right?