RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: #Metro on June 26, 2022, 12:40:57 PMI would like to see an interim measure funded by Toowoomba Regional Council and TransLink.

Toowoomba should be brought within the TransLink fare zone system (train or no train, passengers need to pay $) and perhaps some arrangement can be made for a regular interim bus service ex-Brisbane (frequency to be determined but likely anywhere between hourly-three hourly.)

If anything it should be the bus service utilising the existing 539 route. 
But could be limited stops coach Ipswich to Toowoomba, utilising the existing coaches on the 539 with Wheelchair facilities.

Call it the Route 538, and it could be a (Limited Stops service) Ipswich to Toowoomba via stops at Gatton and Helidon only, to compliment the existing Route 539 all stops to Gatton/Helidon.  5 services per day weekdays and 3 services on the weekends/public holidays.

Print the 538 alongside the existing 539 timetable.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16lBRwCg12xaijezbIdc8r1UydlOXRgmdWT2hn-VNkH4/edit?usp=sharing

Here's somethign I put together a few months ago,
Worth tidying up emailing to Paul Antonio?

I disagree with using battery technology. There is no evidence from any place around the world where you can run high speed services over a significant distance without catenary. It also adds  substantial costs to long term maintenance and operations of the network. The distance from Rosewood to Toowoomba is well in economical range to run overhead catenary providing integrated electric services. The new trains that will be built here in Qld for the Gold and Sunshine coast services as well as the local network can easily run on the proposed  Toowoomba line.

Yeah cool but im still leaving it in there as a point of discussion.


Those actually delivering the project and engaging with suppliers are better positioned to assess the merits than you or I.

Quote from: verbatim9 on June 27, 2022, 10:44:38 AMI disagree with using battery technology. There is no evidence from any place around the world where you can run high speed services over a significant distance without catenary. It also adds  substantial costs to long term maintenance and operations of the network. The distance from Rosewood to Toowoomba is well in economical range to run overhead catenary and provide integrated electric services. The new trains that will be built here in Qld for the Gold and Sunshine coast services as well as the local network can easily run on the proposed  Toowoomba line.

I also think there's no way you're gonna be able to put catenary in the Inland Rail Tunnel the way it's been designed. It will have to by hybrid one way or another (battery/electric or diesel/electric)

The cost to Toowoomba won't be the electrification works, yet the cut and cover and driven tunnelling as well as the low bridge sections across the flood plain. These costs can be off set due to lower long-term track maintenance, due to tracks being laid directly on the concrete bed rather than on tradition sleeper and gravel methods, that can create movement in the tracks.

I believe low bridge structures can be quite cheap and fast to construct if it's pre fabricated in sections. This is how they complete rail projects in China and EU sustainability fast.

Quote from: timh on June 27, 2022, 10:52:45 AM

Quote from: verbatim9 on June 27, 2022, 10:44:38 AMI disagree with using battery technology. There is no evidence from any place around the world where you can run high speed services over a significant distance without catenary. It also adds  substantial costs to long term maintenance and operations of the network. The distance from Rosewood to Toowoomba is well in economical range to run overhead catenary and provide integrated electric services. The new trains that will be built here in Qld for the Gold and Sunshine coast services as well as the local network can easily run on the proposed  Toowoomba line.

I also think there's no way you're gonna be able to put catenary in the Inland Rail Tunnel the way it's been designed. It will have to by hybrid one way or another (battery/electric or diesel/electric)

There is no proposal to share the track. There is a proposal to share the corridor where a seperated track can be laid. Thus, 70-80km of electrification is doable. I understand the proposal allows the train line to be built in stages, being stage one to Helidon and stage two to Toowoomba. They could well share the existing tunnel to Toowoomba and install rigid catenary close to the ceiling but I reckon the will build a new tunnel for passenger services for stage 2, Helidon to Toowoomba.

Proposing hybrid trains to Toowoomba is like trying to reinvent the wheel. The hybrid and diesel proposals should be dropped.

There will battery electric buses running to and from Toowoomba in 6-8 years time to satisfy those who are obsessed with evolving battery tech.

Stage 1 Rosewood to Helidon will only require 40km of electrification. This can allow existing rail stock to run on the corridor at minimal costs inline with network operation budgets

Dude you dont need to make 5 posts in a row.
Settle down,

Sounds like the battery thing has really got you upset or something?

Saying "Oh they're getting electric buses that should make you happy" is completley irrelevant. Grow up.

It's not because im some 'fan' of the technology, Im saying keep the options open if it turns out to be goer in a decades time.
You're literally the only one who comes in and spams several posts trying to shut down the discussion if anyone dares bring it up. 

Quote from: Gazza on June 27, 2022, 11:51:04 AMDude you dont need to make 5 posts in a row.
Settle down,

Sounds like the battery thing has really got you upset or something?

Saying "Oh they're getting electric buses that should make you happy" is completley irrelevant. Grow up.

It's not because im some 'fan' of the technology, Im saying keep the options open if it turns out to be goer in a decades time.
You're literally the only one who comes in and spams several posts trying to shut down the discussion if anyone dares bring it up. 

I can break down information in relevant subsequent posts how I please to make a point. I am not upset about battery tech either, but it only has uses in relevant transport objectives like buses, cars and trucks and in some cases low speed passenger trains that are being tested and are in their infancy.

Respect each others point of view please.

It is generally better to include the facts in one post than a series of one line posts.

For the record, battery/electric trains will be ideal for Toowoomba, if only to scoot through tunnels.

No point in closing off options at this time.

QuoteAlstom Coradia Continental BEMU specs:
three-car-train, 56 meters long, equipped with 150 seats. range under battery power of up to 120 km (75 miles) top speed of 160 km/h (100 mph)

https://insideevs.com/news/397585/alstom-first-battery-electric-trains/

Re battery trains, see: https://www.electrive.com/2021/09/08/alstom-debuts-battery-electric-train-in-germany

See this video of operational hydrogen-powered train.

Hydrogen powered train:

Quotehttps://docs.google.com/document/d/16lBRwCg12xaijezbIdc8r1UydlOXRgmdWT2hn-VNkH4/edit?usp=sharing

Here's somethign I put together a few months ago,
Worth tidying up emailing to Paul Antonio?

I have read through this document  Well set out, needs some formatting/tidying up. Will support it going to Toowoomba Mayor Paul Antonio after tidying.

Would like to suggest adding a section about an interim measure for a bus service. This is common before major rail projects to build patronage (e.g. Springfield line). TransLink et al also need to bring Toowoomba into the TL fare zone system proper.

I think the costing for battery trains is too low. I also agree that it is far too early to decide on propulsion, the main game is the engineering alignment and operational frequencies etc. So I will agree to that if presented as an option (among others).

QuoteRespect each others point of view please.

Agree with this one. Always good forum practice/etiquette to refrain from personal commentary. 

QuoteI can break down information in relevant subsequent posts how I please to make a point

Use the bullet point tool in the forum software.

-Or just break down points like this

-With a little dash in front

-See its easy

-And less scrolling.

*********************

I think the doc should have a simple description of the current line and its characteristics to help understand the issue.

Eg quad track/triple to Darra, electric to rosewood, dual track rest of way apart from range sections etc.

https://twitter.com/peterachilles/status/1568847465058807810

Quote from: ozbob on September 11, 2022, 16:29:53 PMhttps://twitter.com/peterachilles/status/1568847465058807810

What am I looking at??

This is obviously a "fan-made" video, meant to look like an official government announcement of some kind. Complete foam. And those renders of Wellcamp airport?? Ridiculous. Or at least, it won't look like that for 50-100 years...

This seems like something the Wagner family have put out themslves.

nothing wrong with it.....good luck to the Wagners if they can help drive a long overdue and shockingly absent piece of Rail Infrastructure in Qld! 

"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."[Sir Winston Churchill]

Quote from: ozbob on September 11, 2022, 16:29:53 PMhttps://twitter.com/peterachilles/status/1568847465058807810

Great vision, Let's get stage one to Gatton going now.

Well thought out alignment as well.

Quote from: timh on September 11, 2022, 18:46:59 PM

Quote from: ozbob on September 11, 2022, 16:29:53 PMhttps://twitter.com/peterachilles/status/1568847465058807810

What am I looking at??

This is obviously a "fan-made" video, meant to look like an official government announcement of some kind. Complete foam. And those renders of Wellcamp airport?? Ridiculous. Or at least, it won't look like that for 50-100 years...

This seems like something the Wagner family have put out themslves.

The airport will no doubt grow over time, it's just a matter of when. Hotels and other services will become reality due to the Acland mine and other ventures, such as the huge cannabis industry they are planning for the future.

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 11, 2022, 21:13:26 PM

Quote from: ozbob on September 11, 2022, 16:29:53 PMhttps://twitter.com/peterachilles/status/1568847465058807810

Great vision, Let's get stage one to Gatton going now.

Well thought out alignment as well.

It's just renders stolen from the Gowrie to Helidon stage of the Inland rail project

Good news, seems that we have bipartisan support for electric fast rail to Toowoomba as a result of Labor party members voting in favour it for late last year. 👍🙂

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 12, 2023, 12:09:28 PMGood news, seems that we have bipartisan support for electric fast rail to Toowoomba as a result of Labor party members voting in favour it for late last year. 👍🙂

Seriously. Our transport planning goes to a popularity vote!! No wonder we are a transport backwater/laughing stock.

Quote from: Jonno on January 12, 2023, 13:54:12 PM

Quote from: verbatim9 on January 12, 2023, 12:09:28 PMGood news, seems that we have bipartisan support for electric fast rail to Toowoomba as a result of Labor party members voting in favour it for late last year. 👍🙂

Seriously. Our transport planning goes to a popularity vote!! No wonder we are a transport backwater/laughing stock.

In a democratic system any large decision surrounding funding will go to a popularity vote. It's just the way it is. Even with a PT authority the final say will still go through the Legislative Assembly which is voted in by the general public.

Transforming Local Passenger Rail – One Corridor at a Time – Part 3 – Toowoomba from Brisbane
> https://undertheclocksblog.wordpress.com/2022/03/03/transforming-local-passenger-rail-one-corridor-at-a-time-part-3-toowoomba-from-brisbane/

Quote from: ozbob on April 09, 2023, 10:06:27 AMTransforming Local Passenger Rail – One Corridor at a Time – Part 3 – Toowoomba from Brisbane
> https://undertheclocksblog.wordpress.com/2022/03/03/transforming-local-passenger-rail-one-corridor-at-a-time-part-3-toowoomba-from-brisbane/

Completely agree the journey times and service levels proposed in the post are perfectly achievable if the political will to finance it is there; but sadly the odds seem to be the death knell has sounded for Inland Rail in Queensland.

I wonder if the State and the Feds could be convinced that two key pieces of infrastructure (namely Gowrie - Helidon and the tunnel through the Little Liverpool Range near Laidley) could be completed for passenger service some time before 2050 as narrow gauge with future-proofing and correct tunnel heights to be integrated with Inland Rail at a later time, if it ever occurs.

No doubt that is too wishful thinking on my part. 

A SkiTube-Like Train?

How about a route that might need to use dedicated railway rollingstock?

We already have the tilt train set for specific routes, for example.

Australia also has an example of an Alpine Railway (Perisher SkiTube) using a rack railway mechanism. It does 12.5% gradient. Tunnels were bored and blasted.

The rack on the railway does not have to be continuous. Trains can be electric.

The SkiTube train is slow (below 40 km/hr) but I would imagine that slow section of the line would be only for the climb up and down the range (5 km) which would likely have to be in a tunnel.

Once off the Toowoomba Range, the train could continue normally to Ipswich or Brisbane.

Perisher SkiTube

I don't think the patronage for Toowoomba to Brisbane could justify the ongoing maintenance and stabling cost of dedicated specialised rollingstock imo. Toowoomba is sadly a slightly less interesting destination than Perisher 

That aside, I'm interested in what a reasonable patronage might be.

Estimation of Patronage Under a Set of Assumptions

Using a test value of PT=1% and a value of 175,000 for population...

(175,000/100) x 2 trips/day x 5 days/week x 52 weeks = 0.91 million pax/year.

This assumes 1750 daily boardings (e.g. towards Ipswich/Brisbane) at Toowoomba station.

More precise figures could be obtained by travel surveys and traffic surveys to determine how many people were already commuting by car.

There would be more patronage from Ipswich commuters jumping on for the express trip as well.

Due to the poor bus network and frequency at Toowoomba, and most other locations it seems almost inevitable that a strong reliance on P&R will be necessary to make the numbers work (No Amsterdam etc. comparisons please ).

Based on this broad estimate, it seems reasonable to get around 1 million passengers/year.

By car the trip takes ~ 94 minutes. Assuming 125.6 km travel, for the train to achieve time-equivalence with the car, the train must maintain an *average* speed over its journey of at least 80.2 km/hr.

A good case would aim to bring Toowoomba within 60 minutes of Brisbane. This would give train an absolute advantage over car.

Station Location

Following on from the above, the question of where the station should be located also arises.

Some thought needs to be given to whether the train should use the existing Toowoomba Station, or a new station should be constructed. A potential location for a new station is at Toowoomba Grand Central Shopping Centre in the vicinity of Dent Street. This would give easy access to the bus network.

In terms of a P&R, a 1500-2000 car park would not seem unreasonable.

 

Quote from: #Metro on April 10, 2023, 09:20:32 AMStation Location

I think Toowoomba Station is only about 400m from Grand Central Shopping Centre. That's about the distance between the platforms at some stations in Japan (such as the Keiyo Line platforms at Tokyo station). I'm not sure it's worth the effort and expense to move it, but ensuring quality bus transfers and having a covered/weather protected pedestrian pathway to the shopping precinct would probably be a good investment.

They are best to relocate Toowoomba station. A new underground station with an European style town Sq above would be ideal, somewhere in the same vicinity as the current bus interchange.

The  town square perimeter can be activated with cafe and bars with the main station entrance in the middle of the square. The underground concourse can also be activated with additional convenience retail such as a 7 eleven/Coles Local and food outlets.

Thanks for the suggestions Redirent.

Estimate of what capacity the train might require?

I'll round up 1750 daily boardings to 2000 for simplicity, and some wiggle room for growth and the fact some pax will get on at Ipswich for the express ride.

I'll assume 80% of passengers use the service in peak hour. That gives 1600 passengers in peak hour. For a 1-hour peak time, and say a 15-minute peak hour frequent service, that breaks down to:

1600 pax / 4 services = 400 passengers per train.

It would seem that a 3-car service capable of holding 400-500 pax running every 15 minutes in peak hour would be reasonable. Additional cars could be added if patronage rose after the service was introduced.

I would imagine an hourly service in the off-peak to Toowoomba. If the train travel time can be brought to be within 60 minutes, then adjusting for average wait time (60 minute frequency implies a 30 min average wait)... then the journey time will be around 60+30 = 90 minutes, which is essentially the same as what the car can do.

Quote from: #Metro on April 10, 2023, 11:05:26 AMThanks for the suggestions Redirent.

Estimate of what capacity the train might require?

I'll round up 1750 daily boardings to 2000 for simplicity, and some wiggle room for growth and the fact some pax will get on at Ipswich for the express ride.

I'll assume 80% of passengers use the service in peak hour. That gives 1600 passengers in peak hour. For a 1-hour peak time, and say a 15-minute peak hour frequent service, that breaks down to:

1600 pax / 4 services = 400 passengers per train.

It would seem that a 3-car service capable of holding 400-500 pax running every 15 minutes in peak hour would be reasonable. Additional cars could be added if patronage rose after the service was introduced.

I would imagine an hourly service in the off-peak to Toowoomba. If the train travel time can be brought to be within 60 minutes, then adjusting for average wait time (60 minute frequency implies a 30 min average wait)... then the journey time will be around 60+30 = 90 minutes, which is essentially the same as what the car can do.

You wouldn't bother with 3 car sets, you would go with a standard of 6 - 9 car electric  sets which can allow for capacity at stops between Toowoomba and Brisbane.

Frequency would be best set at 60 mins or better with 3 trains per hour during peak times in the morning and afternoon as well as event periods.

QuoteYou wouldn't bother with 3 car sets, you would go with a standard of 6 - 9 car electric  sets which can allow for capacity at stops between Toowoomba and Brisbane.

Thanks for the suggestion Verbatim9.

I would start with 3 car, if you consider Victoria, the trains are smaller for the regional routes. VLocity sets have capacities around 600 pax mark.

You can always add more later if needed.

I imagine a large non-electrified section so that probably rules out using trains similar to those already on the SEQ QR network. There could be a possibility for dual-electric use approaching Toowoomba, depending on whether the approach into Toowoomba was via the Inland Rail alignment (no electric OHW in this case) or a new alignment was used (potential for a short section of electric into Toowoomba in this case).

Stopping Pattern?

Do members have suggestions for stopping patterns?

I'm thinking:

- Toowoomba
- (intermediate stations)
- Ipswich
- Darra
- Indooroopilly
- Toowong
- Milton
- Roma Street (Terminus)

 

Slow and Fast Sections

Update: If you consider it takes ~ 48 minutes to get to Ipswich from Roma Street, then that only leaves 12 minutes left to get to Toowoomba and stay inside the 60 minute time envelope. That's not looking good.

The suburban running section is likely to be much slower, as it is existing track. Are there any opportunities for higher speed in this section? Perhaps between Darra-Ipswich?

If you have a looser standard, say ~ 90 minutes, you would have another 42 minutes to get to Toowoomba from Ipswich. The train would have to average 125 km/hr from Ips-Toowoomba then.

It needs to be electric all the way to meet environmental/emission standards, efficiency, overall network integration, speed and reliability. There is no need to have hybrid trains running to Toowoomba we are only looking at 70-80 km of electrification. Thus electric fleets are economical and viable.

Resident and people would expect anything less than electrification all the way.

The reason why it's difficult to electrify in NSW and Vic in regional areas is that they need to contend with the voltage issue. This is not the case in Qld, SA not WA.

The low level bridge structures across the flood plain, can be economical achieved as they now prefabricate the concrete spans cheaply. Thus, they only have to be transported, craned and fixed into position.

Once the pylons are in they can fix at least 20 KMs of bridge structure within a few months.

Station wise we have gone through this numerous times.

Wellcamp, Toowoomba, Gatton Rosewood, Ipswich, Redbank, Darra Indooroopilly, City, Airport.

Maybe a infill station at Helidon and another Green Field site depending on viability and potential population of these areas.

Quote from: #Metro on April 10, 2023, 11:37:21 AM

QuoteYou wouldn't bother with 3 car sets, you would go with a standard of 6 - 9 car electric  sets which can allow for capacity at stops between Toowoomba and Brisbane.

Thanks for the suggestion Verbatim9.

I would start with 3 car, if you consider Victoria, the trains are smaller for the regional routes. VLocity sets have capacities around 600 pax mark.

You can always add more later if needed.

I imagine a large non-electrified section so that probably rules out using trains similar to those already on the SEQ QR network. There could be a possibility for dual-electric use approaching Toowoomba, depending on whether the approach into Toowoomba was via the Inland Rail alignment (no electric OHW in this case) or a new alignment was used (potential for a short section of electric into Toowoomba in this case).

Stopping Pattern?

Do members have suggestions for stopping patterns?

I'm thinking:

- Toowoomba
- (intermediate stations)
- Ipswich
- Darra
- Indooroopilly
- Toowong
- Milton
- Roma Street (Terminus)

 

Why would you have this train stop at Toowong when the existing Ipswich expresses don't stop there? This is bad practice that will reduce track capacity.

As for stops between Ipswich and Toowoomba: Walloon, Rosewood, Laidley, Gatton, Helidon (Laidley & Helidon stations would have to be relocated, though, as they wouldn't be on the IR alignment).

Would you have an intermediate stop between Ipswich and Darra? It might end up not slowing the train down anyway, as it will likely get caught behind Ipswich services. Maybe Redbank or Goodna, as they seem to have the most bus connections. I'll let someone who knows the area better to comment which is best, though.

Terminating at Roma St is an interesting one. Typically, only traveltrains do that, not urban/interurban services. What is the thinking behind this? Would you terminate it on P10? Not sure that platform has the capacity for frequent interurban services. Sometimes TTs occupy it for extended periods.