Toowoomba Regional Rapid Rail

[Stillwater]

The sticking point, as usual, will be the extent to which the state government will contribute matching, or part, funding for preparation of the business case.

[verbatim9]

Hopefully we will see the first stage to Gatton and Helidon completed and operational by 2025/26. Demand is definitely there, especially for Gatton College. Might give rise for that campus to be expanded?

Will destination signs display Landsborough - Helidon - Landsborough?

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/peterachilles/status/1095471193660960768

[verbatim9]

Re Gazza


Back on TRACK!

Also, newgen trains in North Qld would help pilot the way forward for a post 2035 introduction of "Sprinter" trains on the Darling Downs, after Brisbane/Toowoomba fastER rail.

Hopefully the public will have input after the business case in released. I am hoping that current electric NGR's as well as new electric rolling stock can be used on this line. An integrated approach with fast rail to the Sunshine Coast and the the Gold Coast to the best objective. 

[#Metro]

I think there is a good case for growing Brisbane west in a chain of cities linked by road and rail.

[ozbob]

Question on Notice

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2021/994-2021.pdf

No. 994

Asked on 2 September 2021

MR T WATTS ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS (HON M BAILEY)

QUESTION:

Will the Minister outline in detail the plan to connect Toowoomba to Brisbane via passenger rail?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Toowoomba North for the question.

The Australian and Queensland governments have partnered to undertake the Toowoomba to
Brisbane Passenger Rail Strategic Business Case. This study commenced in early 2021 and is
being delivered in stages, in accordance with the Queensland Government's Project Assessment
Framework.

The study will help determine the future need and timing for passenger rail services between
Toowoomba and Brisbane and investigate options to meet future transport needs in the corridor.
The need for this study was identified as part of the Inland Rail Bilateral Agreement signed by the
Australian and Queensland governments in late 2019.

The Australian Government is wholly funding this study and has committed up to $15 million from
the Major Project Business Case Fund towards a business case to investigate passenger rail
services in the Brisbane to Toowoomba corridor. The Queensland Government is providing an
in-kind contribution to the study through the Department of Transport and Main Roads (TMR).

The study is considering how the new Inland Rail infrastructure and the use of different services
could help improve passenger transport in the Toowoomba to Brisbane corridor in the short-,
medium- and long-term. To date, it has included comprehensive technical information gathering
and analysis with key stakeholders about the existing constraints and opportunities, travel
demand and identification of possible options.

The next phase of the Toowoomba to Brisbane study will involve more detailed assessment of
options. This will include analysis of impacts, benefits, costs, timing, and wider transport network
integration to identify a preferred option, or options, in consultation with key stakeholders. It will
also recommend whether to proceed to a detailed business case and potential further investment.

Further information on the Toowoomba to Brisbane Study is available on TMR's website.
The Queensland Transport and Roads Investment Program 2021–22 to 2024–25 outlines
$27.5 billion in road and transport infrastructure works committed over the next four years,
supporting an average of approximately 24,000 direct jobs over the life of the program.
With the COVID-19 pandemic impacting Queensland businesses and communities, significant
road upgrades will be delivered to help stimulate the economy as part of Unite and Recover:
Queensland's Economic Recovery Plan. These upgrades provide immediate economic benefits,
support more jobs and deliver ongoing benefits of vital infrastructure for years to come.

[ozbob]

Toowoomba to Brisbane Passenger Rail Strategic Business Case

>  https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/toowoomba-to-brisbane-passenger-rail-strategic-business-case

[Gazza]

Looks good.

A few improvements could really make the corridor viable:

-Reconstruct 4km of line between the Tunnel portal and Mort St, by following parallel to Goombungee Rd
https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.5026627,151.9255209,3980m/data=!3m1!1e3

-Use the inland rail corridor from Gowrie to Grandchester
https://maps.inlandrail.com.au/h2c#/

-Ease the curve at Karrabin
https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.6080883,152.684095,4784m/data=!3m1!1e3

-Build Express Tracks from Riverview to Wacol, following the preserved Goodna Bypass corridor and then cutting through prison land.
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/-/media/communityandenvironment/Planning-for-the-future/Preserved-transport-corridors/Goodna-Bypass/GoodnaBypassUBDMap.pdf?la=en

[SteelPan]

Question on Notice

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2021/994-2021.pdf

No. 994

Asked on 2 September 2021

MR T WATTS ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS (HON M BAILEY)

QUESTION:

Will the Minister outline in detail the plan to connect Toowoomba to Brisbane via passenger rail?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Toowoomba North for the question.

The Australian and Queensland governments have partnered to undertake the Toowoomba to
Brisbane Passenger Rail Strategic Business Case. This study commenced in early 2021 and is
being delivered in stages, in accordance with the Queensland Government's Project Assessment
Framework.

........
With the COVID-19 pandemic impacting Queensland businesses and communities, significant
road upgrades will be delivered to help stimulate the economy as part of Unite and Recover:
Queensland's Economic Recovery Plan. These upgrades provide immediate economic benefits,
support more jobs and deliver ongoing benefits of vital infrastructure for years to come.

The current Qld Govt couldn't deliver a Hornby Santa Christmas Train Set in December!   
Mind you, he did manage to get "Covid" into his reply!   

[Gazza]

Really?

What did the LNP deliver? BaT tunnel brochures

What about the current Gov?

CRR
MBRL
Coomera Duplication
GCLR2 and GCLR3

Newman didnt commence a single public rail project.

[SurfRail]

^ Did MBRL commence prior to the Newman Government?  I honestly can't remember off-hand.

The Newman Government certainly cut a lot of ribbons on stuff they inherited - GCLR1, Springfield extension, maybe even the Northern Busway if that was the right part of 2012?

[verbatim9]

Yeah the Coomera duplication and MBRL were the initiatives of the LNP Government.

[Arnz]

MBRL was a jointly funded Bligh Labor State Government and Gillard Labor Federal Government initiative.  It was finished under the Palasczuk State Labor and Turnbull Federal L/NP governments.

[SurfRail]

Yeah the Coomera duplication and MBRL were the initiatives of the LNP Government.

Wrong on both counts.

[verbatim9]

Yeah the Coomera duplication and MBRL were the initiatives of the LNP Government.

Wrong on both counts.

The LNP were the instigators of the Coomera to Helensvale duplication project. Labor then continued to procurement. LNP had plans to rollout ETCS2 as well to improve capacity on the rail network. It's only starting now under Labor. As I remember the procurement process for MBRL happened while LNP were in power.

[Gazza]

Is that the procurement process where the LNP decided to shift it away from the Trackstar model (Which ended up doing several projects under budget)  and instead got TMR to run it. 

[HappyTrainGuy]

LNP did some nice work on the L2P, Springfield, MBRL and NGR projects. They too got a special on track signalling and cutting those pesky staff numbers down. And can't forget their 7 car trains or we will fund the Beerburrum-Nambour upgrade despite not having money to fund it, rule out privatising assets to pay for it nor 100% commuting to it. Trust us. Elect us and we might build it

Helensvale was already in the pipe line. It was always the last to be constructed due to cost and benefit. That particular section of track wasn't the main bottleneck in the duplication process.

It's politics. It's all for the benefit of someone that's not you

[Gazza]

You can email the study team at
toowoomba2brisbane@tmr.qld.gov.au

Im planning on sending them this:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HvClv6kia5TC4WgRWNUbr_VCQsl-r29oghyyddtOJHg/edit?usp=sharing

[verbatim9]

You can email the study team at
toowoomba2brisbane@tmr.qld.gov.au

Im planning on sending them this:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HvClv6kia5TC4WgRWNUbr_VCQsl-r29oghyyddtOJHg/edit?usp=sharing

Good route planning, but I disagree with implementation of battery trains on this route, especially due to the high electricity consumption it takes to run at high speed. It will also be cheaper to run the existing fleet, as well as the proposed trains from the new fleet of 65 on the line. This is due to reduced manufacturing and maintenance costs. The cost of electrification via catenary is very cost effective, especially for the proposed 70km of track from Rosewood to Toowoomba.

(There are no passenger train services in the world that run on battery tech to-date that can get up to speeds of 180km).

It's just not viable especially for acceleration in and out of stations as well as for hill inclines and traction.

[Gazza]

I think in about 10 years time (By the time Inland rail is actually done) battery powered trains will be cheaper and have better performance so the formula might change.

https://www.felix.net/project-news/work-begins-on-615m-gawler-rail-line-upgrade-in-sa

"The Gawler Rail Line Electrification Project is jointly funded by the Australian and South Australian Government - each contributing $220 million - with an additional $175 million from the State Government to purchase additional electric trains."

So 40km long with $440m spent on electrification is about $11m per km for electrification.

By my calculations there is 83km of track from Rosewood to Toowoomba so $913m in todays money.
I think you'd need about 6 to 8 sets to run the Toowoomba line, so to be honest I don't think the trains would be $900m more expensive.

Thats the difference here, because Toowoomba wont need that many trains, even with additional costs its probably cheaper to have onboard power than string up all that wire just for them.

You could use the same model as the the new trains, but just have a module that is walled off in one of the carriages at one end for the battery pack.

[verbatim9]

I think in about 10 years time (By the time Inland rail is actually done) battery powered trains will be cheaper and have better performance so the formula might change.

https://www.felix.net/project-news/work-begins-on-615m-gawler-rail-line-upgrade-in-sa

"The Gawler Rail Line Electrification Project is jointly funded by the Australian and South Australian Government - each contributing $220 million - with an additional $175 million from the State Government to purchase additional electric trains."

So 40km long with $440m spent on electrification is about $11m per km for electrification.

By my calculations there is 83km of track from Rosewood to Toowoomba so $913m in todays money.
I think you'd need about 6 to 8 sets to run the Toowoomba line, so to be honest I don't think the trains would be $900m more expensive.

Thats the difference here, because Toowoomba wont need that many trains, even with additional costs its probably cheaper to have onboard power than string up all that wire just for them.

You could use the same model as the the new trains, but just have a module that is walled off in one of the carriages at one end for the battery pack.

You can't cant compare urbanised electrification to regional electrification. New stations, overpasses and bus replacement are all included in the Gawler electrification project. Just not poles, wires  and labour.

If battery tech for fast train travel is an alternative?  Then there would be extensive research and testing now to bring it into fruition within the decade.

[Gazza]

Sunbury electrification was non urbanised, $270m but that did include 2 station upgrades and a yard.
$270m for 15km so $18m per km raw cost.

Here in Qld, the Bauhina Electrification was 107km for $170m back in 2014 but that was single track so $1.6m per km, so that would be $3.6m per km if it were dual.
https://www.aurizon.com.au/what-we-deliver/projects/bauhinia-electrification---rolleston-electrification.

Personally, I would estimate around $5m per km in 2030 at a miniumum, which would be about $415m Rosewood to Toowoomba so the question remains would battery powered trains be $415m more expensive?

I think the research is underway on better battery trains, there are other places in the world already wanting it.

[SurfRail]

The issue I have with electrifying over such a distance is that there is no way the passenger volume will justify it.  It's a premium that could be better spent on running more frequent trains in the shorter term, which is more important than being too fussed about emissions given we are competing with largely cars.  It's not comparable to the metropolitan area where you have inter-running and a need for more commonality.  Fully expect if we have trains to Toowoomba, they would be running to Bowen Hills and that would be it.

This is going to require new trains.  The REP will deliver 65 x 6 car trains.  If they have any sense (and that is a big ask) that fleet will one for one replace everything built prior to IMU 161, which will mean 43 of 65 trains are like for like replacement, and 22 of 65 are for capacity expansion.  They may wangle some more years out of the newer fleets (eg the SMU220s).  They will also need to bulk up all the remaining 3-car peak trains which means a bit of the capacity enhancement won't be timetable related.  On top of that, you have the need for more services in absolute terms when CRR comes online.

I would have no issue with buying say 10 bi-mode trains that can run under the wires to Rosewood and then on their own power from there.  Longer term, this gives you something you could also use on services elsewhere which might not operate entirely on the electric network but could run under the wires for part of the trip (eg if we ever get around to extending rail back to places which are growing and might justify it one day like Hervey Bay and Yeppoon).

[aldonius]

Fully expect if we have trains to Toowoomba, they would be running to Bowen Hills and that would be it.

Surely you'd want to pair Toowoomba with Gympie? 

(Seems to me that the interior fit out would have commonality; they'd be similar travel times and such...)

[Ari 🚋]

Fully expect if we have trains to Toowoomba, they would be running to Bowen Hills and that would be it.

Surely you'd want to pair Toowoomba with Gympie? 

(Seems to me that the interior fit out would have commonality; they'd be similar travel times and such...)

You'd be insane not to. Similar travel times, both optimised more towards longer distance (toilets etc), and you'd get to kill 2 fast rail birds with one stone (assuming the Gympie line could handler higher speed)

[Gazza]

On the contrary.

I believe you could achieve 90 mins Toowoomba to Roma St.

But Gympie to Roma St is basically 3 hours, so that's a lot of extra rolling stock being tied up to make that run with commonality.

The passenger volumes up there would only warrant a shuttle connecting to CAMCOS at Beerwah in the long term.

Keep em separated...

[#Metro]

I think Toowoomba Rail will be a far way off due to the high costs and low benefits. Electrification is not required at this time IMHO, you could settle with a Victorian-style or Cairns-style diesel tilt train option.

In the near term, the priority is to first get Toowoomba properly integrated with the TL ticketing system, Go Card etc, and then run a basic long-distance PT bus service between Ipswich and Toowoomba.

[Gazza]

I dont think it HAS to be high cost.

-Upgrades to Stations...Say $150m
-Rolling stock...say $300m
-Track revival works / tie ins $300m.

One of the nice things about the western line is that its basically double track and concrete sleepers, except for the Little Liverpool and Toowoomba range crossings....The bits ARTC are bypassing.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.6636693,152.5158987,3a,31.2y,283.09h,83.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjoQkn21MZP-buYkfSUyhKg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.5890349,152.3576127,3a,43y,152.32h,83.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUyZ1ECKvGPCdAETzI8tSxw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.5567758,152.2854887,3a,21.3y,104.79h,81.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSW158eYhylh4Caa4_69tOQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

So it will be able to make good use of existing infrastructure.

[Arnz]

On the contrary.

I believe you could achieve 90 mins Toowoomba to Roma St.

But Gympie to Roma St is basically 3 hours, so that's a lot of extra rolling stock being tied up to make that run with commonality.

The passenger volumes up there would only warrant a shuttle connecting to CAMCOS at Beerwah in the long term.

Keep em separated...

I do suspect they may keep the sole peak through run Gympie North service but it may run express from Beerwah to Bowen Hills stopping only at Caboolture and Eagle Junction. 

It won't be continuing to/from Toowoomba but it may share the same rolling stock.

[SurfRail]

Fully expect if we have trains to Toowoomba, they would be running to Bowen Hills and that would be it.

Surely you'd want to pair Toowoomba with Gympie? 

(Seems to me that the interior fit out would have commonality; they'd be similar travel times and such...)

I think the issue is going to be timetabling constraints on a service like that with extended single track sections at the extremities which compete with freight (which at both ends could be more frequent than passenger).  Many moons ago there used to be a Robina to Gympie run which suffered quite badly on account of constant crosses with other trains.  Nambour to Gympie is also much less of a possible rail market than Ipswich to Toowoomba, and there are more complications with other services arising from Gympie to Brisbane services.  Keep this as a shuttle from Nambour to Gympie, at a higher frequency than at present and using basically same rollingstock commitment.

Gympie can also take NGRs and REPs assuming all the safeworking gets sorted out north of Nambour, whereas if we are talking bi-mode trains they would need to be concentrated west of Rosewood as much as possible to get a decent headway on the non-wired section.

I'd do the following:
- Extend Thomas Street, Wulkuraka, Walloon and Rosewood to take 6 car trains and extend all off-peak and weekend Ipswich line services to Wulkuraka (some weekday peak trips could start and finish at Ipswich or Rosewood)
- Get all Ipswich trains running to the current peak express pattern
- Run Toowoomba services from Bowen Hills to Darra using the same pattern as the Ipswich expresses, then non-stop to Ipswich (I don't think you need an intermediate stop but if there was one its probably Redbank), then Walloon, Rosewood, Gatton, Gowrie and Toowoomba.  Laidley is a possibility but I'm not 100% convinced.
- Close Thagoona and Karrabin and realign the track to remove the big kink between Walloon and Wulkuraka.
- No more Rosewood shuttles.
- Extend the wires further west once enough critical mass
- Amplify track capacity west of Darra as needed (eg by developing a straighter route crossing the Brisbane River in places to take the Toowoomba services).

[ozbob]

Battery electric multiple unit (BEMU) trains are developing rapidly now.

Hybrids with ranges up to 300km +.   BEMUs for Toowoomba could use OHT for part of the journey.   Another option is to consider OHT on the steeper sections of the climb up to Toowoomba.

This article provides a good overview > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_multiple_unit

There is also the triple - electric, diesel and battery hybrid trains too.  But probably an overkill for Toowoomba.


Operating in Germany, Siemens Mireo Plus B battery-overhead wire trains, with a range of 80 km on battery only operation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_multiple_unit#/media/File:DB_BR_463_001_Velim.jpg

The trains would be built with capacity according to the distance to be operated on battery.

[Gazza]

Laidley is a possibility but I'm not 100% convinced.

Laidley is bigger than Rosewood and has the bonus of drawing pax from Plainland Crossing.
I reckon the town would flourish a bit with a rail service, because there is at least a critical mass to grow upon.

[SurfRail]

Definitely not opposed to Laidley and Gatton both being stops, but I see no argument for any others.

It'd be nice to get a train to Warwick too, but it definitely isn't getting a direct route from Brisbane - anything would be tacked onto Toowoomba.  You'd be competing against a 2hr trip by car, with a 90 minute trip to Toowoomba plus an old and winding alignment to Warwick which is not getting upgraded as part of Inland Rail.

[Gazza]

You could definitely make a case for Oakey and Dalby, but agree Warwick would be a bit too slow.

[Arnz]

They've missed an opportunity with Warwick decades ago with the 'via-recta' alignment which would have bypassed Toowoomba, and also used parts of the old Boonah branch.

[Stillwater]

Agree Arnz

[ozbob]

For those not familiar with " via recta " peruse this twitter thread ...

Munbilla - Mount Edwards branch.

[SurfRail]

You could definitely make a case for Oakey and Dalby, but agree Warwick would be a bit too slow.

Further west, absolutely.  Expect that would probably be a via Toowoomba train though, which would mean reversing in and out - unless it is just a direct to Brisbane service timetabled to connect with a Brisbane-Toowoomba trip headed the other way at Gowrie.  There wouldn't be many trips west of here in a given day though, it probably has less passenger potential than Gympie by far.

[verbatim9]

The National Press Club stated today the importance of electrification of transport. Hence the importance of electrification of rail services

Therefore bi mode diesel  trains will not be appropriate to meet 2050 targets

I believe that it will still be cheaper and better for the environment to run catenary the whole length between Rosewood and Toowoomba. 70 km of new aligned track and catenary is quite achievable. Bi mode trains probably will be good West of Toowoomba in the future, but not inbetween Brisbane and Toowoomba.

Benefits of electric trains from Brisbane to Toowoomba.

Utilisation of current urban trains - cheaper to run with streamlined maintenance and network integration.

Reliable frequent  fast services.

Better traction and acceleration to speed

Potentially can run on ETCS 3 technology hence being 90-100% autonomous

Competitive with road and bus transport - hence reduced travel times of 20 mins by train. Bus is currently 90 mins this can be reduced to 70mins.

Trains will run mostly on renewables sources from the region. e.g wind and sun.

[verbatim9]

Yes @ozbob the German Siemens testing is promising for the future.

But we are only talking about 70 KMs of electrification on narrow gauge track running along side the standard gauge track

The only sticking point at this present time is there tunnel portal where trains would need to share the range tunnel with freight.


Installing longer pentograghs on trains to utilise rigid catenary in the tunnel portals on dual gauge track  can be quite economical and achievable.

I believe the plan is  other sections of the track will run along side the freight track alleviating dual gauge track in those sections.

I like to refer people to the tram experiment in Newcastle. Trams only run at really low speeds of 40kph max with the need  of flash recharging at every station. The are purpose built and more expensive.

Yes they suit the short runs now  but they were better off to install a regular wired system that could easily be extended.