Toowoomba Regional Rapid Rail

[verbatim9]

I discount the arguments from metro and surfrail stating the density is not there to warrant electric services.

Toowoomba is one of the biggest inland cities in Australia. It has many scenic draw cards in relation to tourism. Frequent electric train services will open up the tourism potential even more.

It will also allow the towns inbetween to grow alleviating pressure on Toowoomba and Ipswich and Brisbane.

It will prevent the need to add lanes to the Warrego Hwy by 2030 unnecessarily.

If we don't act now and provide network integrated electric trains to Toowoomba the Warrego Hwy will become the second M1 with detrimental effects on  communities between Brisbane and Toowoomba.

[SurfRail]

^ None of which has anything to do with the method used to propel such a service.

[verbatim9]

^ None of which has anything to do with the method used to propel such a service.

It does, you just can't run DMUs effectively and efficiently in this instance for fast reliable frequent passenger services.

I discount people looking towards the examples in Vic and NSW. They have problems extending legacy catenary due to the expense of extending them.

The 2.5 kV systems here is Qld can be easily and cost effectively extended over longer distances.

[verbatim9]

I also refer to a recent statement from Mark Bailey and the tram debate.

He stated that alternative vehicles such as battery tech, trackless trams etc.... is more expensive. The best option is to go with regular catenary systems that are cheaper and much more economical in the long run.

[Gazza]

But you could run an efficient BEMU by the end of the decade.

The decision to use catenary depends on the intensity of the service.

Trams run every 7.5 mins, similar frequencies on other suburban lines so yeah definitely use catenary for them.

However I would estimate an hourly service to Toowoomba and perhaps every 30 min in peak, so in that case there's not as many trains making use of the overhead infrastructure.

[SurfRail]

^ None of which has anything to do with the method used to propel such a service.

It does, you just can't run DMUs effectively and efficiently in this instance for fast reliable frequent passenger services.

I discount people looking towards the examples in Vic and NSW. They have problems extending legacy catenary due to the expense of extending them.

The 2.5 kV systems here is Qld can be easily and cost effectively extended over longer distances.

It's a cost you don't need to run up in the near term.

Geelong has 20 minute headways or better run entirely with DMUs, which is more than Toowoomba will require.  This is a non-argument.

I'm not even saying these things need to be battery powered.  Bi-mode diesels are perfectly fine and represent a net improvement over the sea of single-occupant cars this is going to be competing with.

The opportunity cost is not insignificant.  $400m of capital outlay is enough to pay for most of a Ripley extension, and that is much more important in my view.

[verbatim9]

^ None of which has anything to do with the method used to propel such a service.

It does, you just can't run DMUs effectively and efficiently in this instance for fast reliable frequent passenger services.

I discount people looking towards the examples in Vic and NSW. They have problems extending legacy catenary due to the expense of extending them.

The 2.5 kV systems here is Qld can be easily and cost effectively extended over longer distances.

It's a cost you don't need to run up in the near term.

Geelong has 20 minute headways or better run entirely with DMUs, which is more than Toowoomba will require.  This is a non-argument.

I'm not even saying these things need to be battery powered.  Bi-mode diesels are perfectly fine and represent a net improvement over the sea of single-occupant cars this is going to be competing with.

The opportunity cost is not insignificant.  $400m of capital outlay is enough to pay for most of a Ripley extension, and that is much more important in my view.

But this a mostly a Federal Government intiative to Toowoomba. The state can look after inner urban services to Ripley. They are likely to further investigate after 2025, as stated by Mark Bailey the other day.

Interim measure, better frequent electric bus services in the area.

[Gazza]

So then the opportunity cost is do you spend 400m on electrification, or 400m on realignment and additional quadding to lock in fast journey times from day 1?

[Ari 🚋]

I think under the wires as far as practical, then switch to diesel/battery is the best solution. Obviously in the long term you want full electrification, but I think the relative benefit of a better route comes first. If it's electrified with the current alignment we'll have to pay for sections to be electrified again when sections inevitably need to be realigned. Plus better service = more people using it, which can then justify electrification

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railjournal/status/1460264186697728003

... The 47m-long 15 kV, 16.7 Hz trains will be fitted with lithium-ion batteries that will be charged when the train is operating on electric power. Regenerative braking will also power the batteries which will have a range of more than 90km when operating on non-electrified lines.

Each set will be fitted with three doors on each side and barrier-free interiors. Capacity will be for 128 seated passengers while there will be 12 spaces for bicycles, wheelchairs and buggies. Wi-Fi, a real-time passenger information system, and specially designated family area will all be fitted to the trains, as will around 60 electrical sockets that will be spread evenly through the train, USB charging points and locations for inductive charging ...

[ozbob]

Bipartisan support a must for faster rail to Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast

30th March 2022

RAIL Back On Track welcomes funding in the Federal budget for both a rail extension to Maroochydore ($1.6 billion), and for the Logan to Gold Coast Faster rail project ($1.1 billion).

We urge all parties to commit to funding both of these projects at the coming federal election.

Rail to Maroochydore will be a game changer. For years the Sunshine coast has seen proportionally less public transport investment than Brisbane or the Gold Coast.

Currently the main rail stations on the Sunshine coast are a significant distance inland at Nambour, Landsborough and Beerwah, well away from the bulk of the population on the booming coastal strip. The rail project long known by the acronym 'CAMCOS' will thread right through the centre, putting new stations on the doorstep of hundreds of thousands of residents at places like Caloundra, Birtinya and Maroochydore. It will also support the growing Aura development, ensuring the new city grows sustainably around the rail line.
The new line will be built to fast interurban standards, potentially achieving speeds of 140 km/h or more.

Also significant is the Logan to Gold Coast faster rail project. The rail line south of Kuraby is only one track in each direction, with many slow curves. Gold Coast Express trains have no way to overtake all stops Beenleigh trains.
The current setup slows down maximum speeds and limits the total number of trains that can be run. The faster rail project will expand the corridor from two tracks to four, and straighten out some of the slow curves.
This will ultimately segregate Gold Coast trains and give them a clear run through Logan and into Brisbane.

These projects will better connect the Gold and Sunshine Coasts to Brisbane, will relieve pressure on the overloaded Bruce and Pacific Highways, support the shift to net zero emissions and aid the movement of people across SEQ for the 2032 Olympics.

Finally, its important to acknowledge the need for Toowoomba to also be included in this 'faster rail fever' to complete the regional vision.
The coming inland rail project will provide new tunnels bypassing the currently slow range sections up to Toowoomba.
With careful design, freight trains and regular passenger services could share these tunnels, slashing the journey time, potentially meaning Toowoomba and Brisbane could be linked in under 90 minutes.

References:

1. Budget 2022-23 https://budget.gov.au/index.htm

2. Rail Express Budget boost for rail infrastructure https://www.railexpress.com.au/17-9-billion-budget-boost-for-australian-infrastructure/

3. Caboolture to Maroochydore Corridor Study  https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/caboolture-to-maroochydore-corridor-study

4. Logan and Gold Coast Faster Rail https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/logan-and-gold-coast-faster-rail

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[Jonno]

I assume/hope the Toowoomba Passenger Line via the Inland Rail Tunnel and with a little bit of additonal tunnelling and maybe some elevated sections could be smoothed out to look like:

Toowoomba Passenger Rail Line

[SurfRail]

^ That's basically all you need to solve the immediate problem.  I'd probably have a parkway station at Gowrie for those coming from the west, a station at Willowburn for those coming from the north (Highfields etc) or the northern outskirts of the urban part of Toowoomba, and otherwise just Toowoomba Station.

A more ambitious plan might be to extend the service towards Drayton with some intermediate stations to get a local service running, a bit like Geelong - maybe at or around some of the following places:

- Toowoomba Central - around Herries Street (closer to the centre of town and main shopping centre)
- South Toowoomba - south of James Street (closer to the hospital and one of the main arterial routes through town)
- Toowoomba Hospital - along Diagonal Street before West Street (closer to the hospital)
- Harristown - along Duhig Street (local station)
- Drayton - on the other side of the corridor from where DownsSteam is (local station and good direct access to USQ campus via Ball, Luck and Baker Streets)

South of Drayton I think it gets much more marginal due to the alignment not being brilliant.  I wouldn't even bother with the line towards Warwick, too indirect and there's no way a train to Warwick via Toowoomba would be competitive with either driving or a bus from Warwick to Brisbane, or driving / bussing to Drayton and getting on a train there.

I think you could maybe have a service to Wyreema and Pittsworth, but nowhere else on the Milmerran branch.

On the other hand I think that you could quite easily have a time competitive service to Oakey and Dalby if you are leveraging off Inland Rail.

The peak service offering could be something like this during the height of peak (outbound) to yield a train to Gowrie every 15 minutes, and 3tph to Toowoomba Station:

- 1tph running Bowen Hills, Fortitude Valley, Central, Roma Street, Milton, Indooroopilly, Darra, Redbank, Ipswich, Walloon, Rosewood, Laidley, Gatton, Gowrie, Willowburn, Toowoomba, Toowoomba Central, South Toowoomba, Toowoomba Hospital, Harristown, Drayton.
- 1tph as above but extending to Wyreema and Pittsworth.
- 1tph as above but terminating at Toowoomba.
- 1tph as per list above to Gowrie, but then to Oakey and Dalby.

The off-peak service offering would be something like this to yield a train every 30 minutes:

- 1tph same as the first stopping pattern above.
- 1tph all stations Gowrie to Drayton only, with some extending to Dalby and/or Pittsworth to maintain connections to Brisbane at Gowrie.

The above also assumes there is no longer a "Rosewood Line", ie:
- Thomas Street and Wulkuraka are extended to take 6 car trains and form part of the Ipswich line full-time, and do not interchange with the Toowoomba service.  This would mean catching a bus to Rosewood or a train back to Ipswich to head further west than Wulkuraka.  In my mind this is a very, very small price to pay for a very, very small number of people who could potentially be affected.
- Karrabin and Thagoona are closed permanently.
- The line is realigned between Wulkuraka and Walloon to straighten it and improve speeds and flooding resilience.
- The Gowrie-and-beyond services all stop at Rosewood, Laidley and Gatton but make no other stops.

Not entirely sure if there should be a station between Gatton and Gowrie.  I'm leaning against but would need to sit down with the Inland Rail alignment.

[verbatim9]

I read that the outcome of the Toowoomba passenger rail study is under state government wraps. Even the Toowoomba council cannot access the documents despite them being the main contributor.

[SteelPan]

This Qld State Govt will move slower than a QR train up the existing Range corridor!   

[#Metro]

I think an interim measure would be to run Toowoomba coach services, similar to how there are V/Line Coach services in Victoria.

Toowoomba would be brought into the TransLink network proper, either with open payment system or GoCard. Fares would be integrated into the TL network.

Dedicated coaches would run to Toowoomba ex Ipswich regularly. Say every 2 hours or so.

Ipswich trains would be changed to run express all day. That will speed things up and make the connection more reasonable.

[timh]

I think an interim measure would be to run Toowoomba coach services, similar to how there are V/Line Coach services in Victoria.

Dedicated coaches would run to Toowoomba ex Ipswich regularly. Say every 2 hours or so.

I don't have a timetable in front of me, but I'm fairly certain this is already a thing. I think there's a public bus that runs from Rosewood. And I believe there's Greyhound services from Roma street. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

[ozbob]

^

539  Rosewood <> Helidon

Greyhound > https://www.greyhound.com.au/buses/brisbane-to-toowoomba

[SurfRail]

What they aren't is part of the integrated ticketing system, and provide poor connectivity between Toowoomba and Ipswich.

Coaches were used between Perth and Mandurah before the railway opened but those distances are somewhat shorter.

[verbatim9]

^

539  Rosewood <> Helidon

Greyhound > https://www.greyhound.com.au/buses/brisbane-to-toowoomba

Murrays too.

While a bus is ok a fast electric train service  can help increase Public Transport uptake.

Re:  Static smart  ticketing readers could be an option prior to boarding the bus and disembarking the bus at Toowoomba, Helidon and Gatton.
 

[ozbob]

^

https://www.murrays.com.au/express-services/toowoomba-brisbane-timetable

[Arnz]

What they aren't is part of the integrated ticketing system, and provide poor connectivity between Toowoomba and Ipswich.

Coaches were used between Perth and Mandurah before the railway opened but those distances are somewhat shorter.

Another alternative solution is to extend some existing 539 services to Toowoomba to cover the towns inbetween, say 3 per day on weekdays and 2 on weekends/public holidays, albeit with the existing coaches used on the 539.

[#Metro]

The ticket price for Murrays et. al coaches are around $35-$40. These are commercial operators not integrated into the TL network.

I'm thinking of a more V/Line coach service ex Ipswich with TransLink fares and integrated into the TL fare network. I'm not sure what zone Toowoomba would be in, but a reasonable guess is to put it in Zone 7 and thus the fare would be $17.14 in peak and $13.71 off peak.

If we take $35 as the commercial price and $13.71 as the TransLink fare, the cost ratio would be about 40% cost recovery on each passenger, which is pretty good considering that cost recovery for the wider network is more like 20-25%. Of course, this is assuming we piggyback off commercial operators, no new services. I think there should be money for a more regular timetable as well.

Route 539 terminates at Helidon Spa, at the base of Toowoomba, and doesn't enter the Toowoomba CBD.

I would be relatively easy to set up a 6 or 12 month trial service with TransLink fares for a time, and might be worthwhile to do that to test patronage. Trial could be jointly funded by TL, TMR and Toowoomba Regional Council, and could be preceded by business case analysis.

[minbrisbane]

If it's going to be a coach it should be two services IMO (extend 539 to run into Ipswich at the Eastern end and up the hill to Toowoomba at the Western end) - One from Brisbane to Toowoomba and one Ipswich to Toowoomba. 

Public Transport needs to be comparable to or faster than personal cars for it to be even considered (when there is an option).  It's faster to go direct from Roma Street to Toowoomba.  Add a train connection via Ipswich that's going to add considerable time penalty - I get it, but it's not going to be an attractive option. 

[#Metro]

Public Transport needs to be comparable to or faster than personal cars for it to be even considered (when there is an option).  It's faster to go direct from Roma Street to Toowoomba.  Add a train connection via Ipswich that's going to add considerable time penalty - I get it, but it's not going to be an attractive option.

This is a fair point. Perhaps it can run from Roma Street stop at Toowong, Indooroopilly, Ipswich, Toowoomba.

[Gazza]

Too hard to have stops at Indro or Toowong because you are pulling the coach off the Motorways and putting them onto congested urban streets.

Easiest stop for a Toowoomba coach would be Dinmore, from there you can connect with heavy rail and either backtrack into ipswich, or travel onwards and get off at Indro etc.

As for Servcing Ipswich, a compromise could be to exit off and go via fernvale rd in Brassal and rejoin at the next onramp. Passengers could then connect with the 515 high frequency services.

[verbatim9]

The ticket price for Murrays et. al coaches are around $35-$40. These are commercial operators not integrated into the TL network.

I'm thinking of a more V/Line coach service ex Ipswich with TransLink fares and integrated into the TL fare network. I'm not sure what zone Toowoomba would be in, but a reasonable guess is to put it in Zone 7 and thus the fare would be $17.14 in peak and $13.71 off peak.

If we take $35 as the commercial price and $13.71 as the TransLink fare, the cost ratio would be about 40% cost recovery on each passenger, which is pretty good considering that cost recovery for the wider network is more like 20-25%. Of course, this is assuming we piggyback off commercial operators, no new services. I think there should be money for a more regular timetable as well.

Route 539 terminates at Helidon Spa, at the base of Toowoomba, and doesn't enter the Toowoomba CBD.

I would be relatively easy to set up a 6 or 12 month trial service with TransLink fares for a time, and might be worthwhile to do that to test patronage. Trial could be jointly funded by TL, TMR and Toowoomba Regional Council, and could be preceded by business case analysis.

I believe that both Murrays and Greyhound have discount tickets if you buy them in advance. It's around 25 bucks.

[minbrisbane]

Too hard to have stops at Indro or Toowong because you are pulling the coach off the Motorways and putting them onto congested urban streets.

Easiest stop for a Toowoomba coach would be Dinmore, from there you can connect with heavy rail and either backtrack into ipswich, or travel onwards and get off at Indro etc.

As for Servcing Ipswich, a compromise could be to exit off and go via fernvale rd in Brassal and rejoin at the next onramp. Passengers could then connect with the 515 high frequency services.

I think you could even just leave it at Dinmore, straight off the Ipswich Motorway R into River Road, into the station area and then back out again, R onto River Road, L at the roundabout and back onto the Warrego.  If you had the 539 extended from Rosewood to Ipswich and to Toowoomba at the other end you could negate a need for the Brisbane - Toowoomba service to go to Ipswich Central.

The train is every 30 minutes at worst, the bus departure from Roma Street/Toowoomba could be timed as best as possible to meet up with either an inbound or outbound train (or both if possible) to enable a connection to Ipswich and Western Suburbs.

[verbatim9]

That would really slow the service down making it go via Ipswich central. It already takes up to 90 mins.

[verbatim9]

There are already services from Ipswich to Toowoomba. Thus, no need for Brisbane to Toowoomba services to stop at Ipswich

[Gazza]

Which ones?

I think the point is that it might be better to offer better frequency with a single stopping pattern than have dedicated services at lower frequency.

[Arnz]

The Murrays service between Toowoomba and Brisbane has their intermediate stops as 'on request', otherwise it's a Brisbane-Toowoomba non-stop service if there's no prebookings for the intermediate stops.  There are also only 4 intermediate stops: Witcott, Gatton, Plainland and Goodna Train Station.  Either way, the travel time is timetabled at 1 hr 45 mins (but the bus can arrive early if there's no 'on request' demand for the stops enroute).

The Greyhound Service is a stopping service though and also takes 1 hour 45 mins (including the stops), with only a few stops listed as a 'on request' service.

[verbatim9]

Which ones?

I think the point is that it might be better to offer better frequency with a single stopping pattern than have dedicated services at lower frequency.

The Murrays service between Toowoomba and Brisbane has their intermediate stops as 'on request', otherwise it's a Brisbane-Toowoomba non-stop service if there's no prebookings for the intermediate stops.  There are also only 4 intermediate stops: Witcott, Gatton, Plainland and Goodna Train Station.  Either way, the travel time is timetabled at 1 hr 45 mins (but the bus can arrive early if there's no 'on request' demand for the stops enroute).

The Greyhound Service is a stopping service though and also takes 1 hour 45 mins (including the stops), with only a few stops listed as a 'on request' service.

Yeah, you wouldn't want an extra stop in Ipswich in that case. Having two seperate services one from Ipswich and the other from Brisbane should remain, but ticketing technology upgraded to smart ticketing with onboard portable touch on points.

Any smart NFC 5G device with a screen can be turned into a portable reader.

[minbrisbane]

100%.  Any service of this nature should be able to accept go card and contactless payments (new ticketing system) from day one. 

Brisbane to Toowoomba express (maybe with a stop at Goodna or Dinmore)
Ipswich to Toowoomba (extension of the current 539)

[ozbob]

Toowoomba Chronicle --> Toowoomba fast rail: Mayor Paul Antonio launching new campaign to push for connection $

Toowoomba will ramp up its advocacy to secure a fast rail link to Brisbane, with the mayor proposing a similar campaign model that helped deliver the $1.6bn bypass.

Mayor Paul Antonio will introduce a motion at Thursday's ordinary meeting to establish a formal fast rail campaign, which will include advertising and a conference in the coming months to bring together stakeholders.

It comes a month after it was revealed a strategic business case by the state government for the concept might not be actioned until 2025.

Mr Antonio, who has long been a supporter of fast rail as a way to boost connectivity and liveability in the Garden City, said now was the time to act. ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1540217736940646400

[ozbob]

Toowoomba residents could reach the Brisbane CBD in just 45 minutes under the Mayor's plan to fast track a fast rail...

Posted by 7NEWS Toowoomba on Thursday, 23 June 2022

[verbatim9]

It's great how momentum is now building for electrified fast rail to Toowoomba.

[verbatim9]

It's needs to be slightly elevated above the Brisbane valley flood plain I reckon. So when there is substantial rain the services can remain running.



^^But not as high in sections as along as it's above the flood plain.

[verbatim9]

It's needs to be slightly elevated above the Brisbane valley flood plain I reckon. So when there is substantial rain the services can remain running.



^^But not as high in sections as along as it's above the flood plain.

It can be quite cheap to do if prefabricated. Tracks are laid directly onto the concrete minimising ongoing maintenance and allowing trains to run at maximum speed.

[#Metro]

I would like to see an interim measure funded by Toowoomba Regional Council and TransLink.

Toowoomba should be brought within the TransLink fare zone system (train or no train, passengers need to pay $) and perhaps some arrangement can be made for a regular interim bus service ex-Brisbane (frequency to be determined but likely anywhere between hourly-three hourly.)