NorthShore / Doomben Line

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Commuters 'can't wait' 20 years for rail line

Commuters 'can't wait' 20 years for rail line
Tony Moore
April 5, 2011 - 3:00AM

A public transport lobby group has slammed as "ridiculous and farcical" the decision not to upgrade the Doomben to Hamilton railway line for up to 20 years.

The issue arose yesterday when Brisbane's Lord Mayor-elect Graham Quirk said plans to reduce road traffic on Kingsford Smith Drive were back on Brisbane City Council's planning agenda.

Day traffic on the arterial road will increase from 58,000 vehicles to 70,000 within 15 years.

The state government's Connecting SEQ 2031 plan shows the Doomben to Hamilton rail line upgrade was a "long -term option" for 2031.

Although not part of the CityTrain commuter network, a rail line used for freight forks off and crosses Kingsford Smith Drive, before hooking back towards Hamilton Northshore.

Rail: Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said the timeframe was "farcical" and said significant improvements could be made for $200-$300 million.

"We think the Doomben line itself is a piece of infrastructure gold, because it is completely out of the traffic," he said.

"It provides an opportunity to really drive from the Australia TradeCoast precinct."

Mr Dow said the line could run from Doomben, in a cutting under Kingsford Smith Drive and on to the Hamilton Northshore development.

One entrance to Hamilton Northshore is 800 metres from the Doomben train station.

"You have a rail corridor that is existing and it is a piece of rail infrastructure that is grossly under-utilised," Mr Dow said.

Timetable changes could make the line viable, Mr Dow said, with trains running to Doomben, rather than terminating at Bowen Hills.

However, Mr Dow said the rail line would need to be duplicated, or doubled, because now it was a single line from Eagle Junction.

Mr Dow said Queensland Rail planned to duplicate the line in the early 1900s and the 1950s.

"Clayfield actually has two platforms, even though it is only a single track, and they did it because they have always planned to duplicate it," he said.

Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk said the Queensland government had to watch where taxpayers' dollars were spent.

"It's clear we need to have transport infrastructure that caters for our growing community," she said.

"We're planning ahead and projects like Cross River Rail and the Moreton Bay Rail link are progressing, but we need to be realistic about just how far the taxpayers' dollar can go in the short term.

"Right now government and the community are engaged in a massive reconstruction effort across Queensland and that is where our focus should lie."

The state government has budgeted $300 million for the new Moreton Bay rail line and land valued at $120 million in the area.

The line, from Petrie to Kippa-Ring, is expected to be finished in 2016.

Premier Anna Bligh announced in January the Cross River Rail project would be delayed for at least two years because the federal government needed the money for disaster relief.

The Urban Land Development Authority plans for 24,000 workers in the Hamilton Northshore area, with 15,500 residents.

"The development scheme allows for the extension of the Doomben line into Northshore, if a decision is made within the Transport Department to extend the line," a spokeswoman said.

"Our planning work will feed into, and inform future iterations of Connecting SEQ 2031."

[somebody]

That's a pretty delayed reaction isn't it?  Is there something I'm not seeing?

[ozbob]

That's a pretty delayed reaction isn't it?  Is there something I'm not seeing?

Not really, it as a hot topic again because of the 'Lord Mayor elect' push for federal funding again for KSD.

[ozbob]

Media release 10 April 2011

SEQ: Consider North Shore Rail Rapid Transit over 'Car Rapid Transit'

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has released a 'concept idea' of what a North Shore rail line might look like. RAIL Back on Track calls for a study investigating a shallow cutting or an elevated option to cross Kingsford Smith Drive. 'Car Rapid Transit' is a term to describe the attempt at fast movement of single occupant vehicles on access limited roadways. It is a low capacity, high-pollution, unsafe, expensive-to-construct, high-toll mode inappropriate for mass transit purposes.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"RAIL Back on Track is appalled at the choice of 'Car Rapid Transit' as the mode of choice for transporting increasing amounts of people.  The lack of 'public transport only' options for the upgrade of Kingsford Smith Drive and lack of investigation into non-infrastructure alternatives such as de-congestion pricing - where people pay to get out of congestion; which may have similar benefits but lower costs than the obsessive commitment to 'Car Rapid Transit' is yet another example of the transport myopia that characterises south-east Queensland. Have people not seen the increasing price of petrol?"

" 'Car Rapid Transit', the attempted fast movement of single occupant vehicles on access limited roadways, is a low capacity, high-pollution, unsafe, expensive-to-construct, high-toll mode inappropriate for mass transit purposes in this area."

"The beauty of the rail rehabilitation of the Doomben line is that it is likely to be far cheaper than $3.2 billion dollars; it has capacity during peak hour when roads are at their most congested, it could support and attract transit-oriented development, could be fast due to the existing tunnels and separated track that takes the trains straight into the CBD without having to fight road traffic or wait at traffic lights in the highly congested areas of Fortitude Valley or on approaches to the CBD like buses running on surface roads must face. Buses could connect at 'Perth-style' interchanges at this station for Australia Trade Coast and beyond, and provided they were timed to meet arriving and departing trains, the connection could be seamless."

"RAIL Back on Track again calls for the total abandonment of so called 'balanced transport' and a shift to 're-balanced transport' based around walking, cycling, buses, ferries and rail. Incentives for public transport must be combined with disincentives for driving because any other combination is self-defeating."

"We need to make good use of the current endowments of infrastructure that we have all over Brisbane. $3.2 Billion is equivalent to three Gold Coast Light Rail systems. As the old adage goes 'waste not, want not' ".

North Shore Railway station concept (more images below):



Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

References:

1. 6 Apr 2011: SEQ: Call to scrutinise Kingsford Smith Drive 'Car Rapid Transit http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5743

2. RAIL Back on Track Northshore Station Concept

Oblique view http://img197.imageshack.us/i/northshore2.jpg/

Side View http://img31.imageshack.us/i/northshore3.jpg/

Side View http://img215.imageshack.us/i/northshore1.jpg/

[somebody]

Plan 1, duplicate Ascot-Doomben

Eagle Junction	:00	:15	:30	:45
Ascot	:05	:20	:35	:50
Doomben	:07	:22	:37	:52
-
Doomben	:20	:35	:50	:05
Ascot	:22	:37	:52	:07
Eagle Junction	:28	:43	:58	:13

Where's the problem?  Only issue I can see is that a delayed inbound train could delay an outbound train, which may delay another train at Eagle Junction.

An alternative would be:
Plan 2, duplicate Eagle Junction-Clayfield, utilise both platforms at Doomben:

Eagle Junction	:00	:15	:30	:45
Clayfield	:01	:16	:31	:46
Doomben	:07	:22	:37	:52
-
Doomben	:23	:38	:53	:08
Clayfield	:29	:44	:59	:14
Eagle Junction	:28	:43	:58	:13

Kind of tight. 

Plan 3, extending the duplication to the west end of Hendra, single platform still at Hendra but two platforms at Clayfield.  Still requires using both platforms at Doomben:

Eagle Junction	:00	:15	:30	:45
Hendra	:03	:18	:33	:48
Doomben	:07	:22	:37	:52
-
Doomben	:25	:40	:55	:10
Hendra	:29	:44	:59	:14
Eagle Junction	:30	:45	:00	:15

More margin with this plan, it allows for trains to be up to 3 minutes late and still catch up. It also allows for trains to clear the main line at Eagle Junction if the inbound train from Doomben is late.  I think this is an upgrade on my previous Ascot-Doomben plan and avoids the need for bridge work in two places and also level crossing work.

[longboi]

Bit tight. You better hope there aren't any PWDs (Persons W/Disabilities) on the line.

[somebody]

Bit tight. You better hope there aren't any PWDs (Persons W/Disabilities) on the line.

Any peak hour train which is delayed by 3 minutes will delay other trains, unless it is outbound and has cleared all limitations.

I don't think it is an unreasonable ask.

[BrizCommuter]

Bit tight. You better hope there aren't any PWDs (Persons W/Disabilities) on the line.

Any peak hour train which is delayed by 3 minutes will delay other trains, unless it is outbound and has cleared all limitations.

I don't think it is an unreasonable ask.

No, at 20tph, a peak hour train delayed by 30 seconds will delay other trains.

[somebody]

Bit tight. You better hope there aren't any PWDs (Persons W/Disabilities) on the line.

Any peak hour train which is delayed by 3 minutes will delay other trains, unless it is outbound and has cleared all limitations.

I don't think it is an unreasonable ask.

No, at 20tph, a peak hour train delayed by 30 seconds will delay other trains.

Didn't say that it wouldn't, but I will now.

If the capacity of the suburbans is 24tph+ (assessed as 23-25tph), then 2.5min headway is permissible, and a 30s delay would not delay other trains.  Different on the mains.

[Golliwog]

Bit tight. You better hope there aren't any PWDs (Persons W/Disabilities) on the line.

Any peak hour train which is delayed by 3 minutes will delay other trains, unless it is outbound and has cleared all limitations.

I don't think it is an unreasonable ask.

No, at 20tph, a peak hour train delayed by 30 seconds will delay other trains.

Didn't say that it wouldn't, but I will now.

If the capacity of the suburbans is 24tph+ (assessed as 23-25tph), then 2.5min headway is permissible, and a 30s delay would not delay other trains.  Different on the mains.

Just throwing it out there, but train signalling may mean that a 30 second delay would impact other services. Yes its a 2.5min headway, but depending on the signalling blcoks, trains may not be able to get within 2minutes of each other.

[#Metro]

Just out of curiosity- if signalling was improved, would this be so much of an issue?

[somebody]

Just throwing it out there, but train signalling may mean that a 30 second delay would impact other services. Yes its a 2.5min headway, but depending on the signalling blcoks, trains may not be able to get within 2minutes of each other.

If the signaling allows 2.5 minute headways, but the timetable has 3 minute headways, then a 0.5 minute delay will not affect other services.

Just out of curiosity- if signalling was improved, would this be so much of an issue?

Would have more effect on the suburbans than on the mains.  It would reduce, but not eliminate, the issue.  I don't think you would get 1 minute headways like the Borg said going into the last election.

[BrizCommuter]

Bit tight. You better hope there aren't any PWDs (Persons W/Disabilities) on the line.

Any peak hour train which is delayed by 3 minutes will delay other trains, unless it is outbound and has cleared all limitations.

I don't think it is an unreasonable ask.

No, at 20tph, a peak hour train delayed by 30 seconds will delay other trains.

Didn't say that it wouldn't, but I will now.

If the capacity of the suburbans is 24tph+ (assessed as 23-25tph), then 2.5min headway is permissible, and a 30s delay would not delay other trains.  Different on the mains.

Reality check time:
Bowen Hills platform re-occupation time = 1.5 min
Bowen Hills dwell time (crew changeover) = 1 min (and often exceeded)
1min+1.5min=2.5mins
Thus at 3 minute intervals, a train running more than 30 seconds late will delay the following train.

QR need to get their posterior in gear if they want to run a reliable 3 min headway or less. BrizCommuter's morning train often waits outside of Bowen Hills for anything between 1 and 7 minutes thanks to a constantly late running ex-Caboolture train!

[somebody]

Why do you insist that the crew changeovers for the suburbans remain at Bowen Hills?

[BrizCommuter]

Why do you insist that the crew changeovers for the suburbans remain at Bowen Hills?

BrizCommuter doesn't insist. However, moving crew changeovers to another location would have many staffing and shift implications. I doubt QR would even consider it.

[somebody]

BrizCommuter doesn't insist. However, moving crew changeovers to another location would have many staffing and shift implications. I doubt QR would even consider it.

You probably correct in your last sentence!  QR wouldn't consider a number of ways of improving the service.

[mufreight]

It all comes back to cost and no business case would support the proposal of moving the crew changing point and depot facilities at this time.

[Golliwog]

Would you need to move the depot point? Is it that hard for the replacement drivers to hop on a train to Central so they do the switch there? Theres a large number of trains through there already, so its not like they'll be waiting long.

[somebody]

Would you need to move the depot point? Is it that hard for the replacement drivers to hop on a train to Central so they do the switch there? Theres a large number of trains through there already, so its not like they'll be waiting long.

That would be my thinking also.

It all comes back to cost and no business case would support the proposal of moving the crew changing point and depot facilities at this time.

A lot cheaper than CRR!  If CRR is delayed, then we need to implement moves to get more out of the network, and especially the suburbans.

[mufreight]

Would you need to move the depot point? Is it that hard for the replacement drivers to hop on a train to Central so they do the switch there? Theres a large number of trains through there already, so its not like they'll be waiting long.

Again cost, crew are paid from depot to depot, also the traveling time comes off the time that they are avaliable to worl so additional crews would be required to cover the shifts.
Good in theory but less than practical in operation unfortunately.

[Golliwog]

Come off it. Changing onto trains heading south/west they would just board their train when it pulls into Bowen Hills, but don't change crews till Central. The leaving crew would then have to back track on the next train north but with the frequency of trains through there and the travel time, you're looking at what, 4 minutes travel time + a maximum 10 minute wait at Central (thats in the off peak, and looking at the biggest gap I could find, most are about 5 minutes), and vice versa for the other direction. How that would justify extra crews has me stumped.

[somebody]

Come off it. Changing onto trains heading south/west they would just board their train when it pulls into Bowen Hills, but don't change crews till Central. The leaving crew would then have to back track on the next train north but with the frequency of trains through there and the travel time, you're looking at what, 4 minutes travel time + a maximum 10 minute wait at Central (thats in the off peak, and looking at the biggest gap I could find, most are about 5 minutes), and vice versa for the other direction. How that would justify extra crews has me stumped.

It would, but not very many.  Knocking off crews who are now out of service at Central would need to "deadhead" to Bowen Hills.  And same with starting crews which would need to deadhead to Central.  Not going to break the bank IMO.

Saying that it is too expensive only makes it harder for rail to win more passengers.

[Golliwog]

Come off it. Changing onto trains heading south/west they would just board their train when it pulls into Bowen Hills, but don't change crews till Central. The leaving crew would then have to back track on the next train north but with the frequency of trains through there and the travel time, you're looking at what, 4 minutes travel time + a maximum 10 minute wait at Central (thats in the off peak, and looking at the biggest gap I could find, most are about 5 minutes), and vice versa for the other direction. How that would justify extra crews has me stumped.

It would, but not very many.  Knocking off crews who are now out of service at Central would need to "deadhead" to Bowen Hills.  And same with starting crews which would need to deadhead to Central.  Not going to break the bank IMO.

Saying that it is too expensive only makes it harder for rail to win more passengers.

Thats what I mean, it would only be a couple extra. The way mu talks about it, you'd think it would be something like an extra crew for each time you change at Central rather than Bowen Hills.

[somebody]

I've been thinking about the suggestion of extending all Cleveland trains off peak to Doomben, and I'm starting to like it.  Doing so would allow all off peak Caboolture line trains to be freed from serving Albion and Wooloowin, so long as it co-ordinates with the Shorncliffe service.  Which would be nice.  Extend the Shorncliffe trains to Manly, and you have a reasonable upgrade without actually using any more CBD paths in the weekday daytimes.

[ozbob]

 

[O_128]

I've been thinking about the suggestion of extending all Cleveland trains off peak to Doomben, and I'm starting to like it.  Doing so would allow all off peak Caboolture line trains to be freed from serving Albion and Wooloowin, so long as it co-ordinates with the Shorncliffe service.  Which would be nice.  Extend the Shorncliffe trains to Manly, and you have a reasonable upgrade without actually using any more CBD paths in the weekday daytimes.

If you extend Cleveland to doomben and then perhaps shorncliffe to manly that gives you 15 min then possibly extend richlands to petrie and 15 min service, The big question is , is QR/Translink going to even consider giving these lines a 15 min service?

[colinw]

Question: what did QR do for staff changeover in the days when offpeak services rarely if ever terminated at Roma St or Bowen Hills.

I'm talking about the pre 1993 timetable where Doomben was still paired with Corinda via South Brisbane, so the offpeak services were:

Ferny Grove <-> Beenleigh
Caboolture <-> Ipswich
Shorncliffe <-> Cleveland
Doomben <-> Corinda via South Brisbane

Plus a handful of Nambour & Laidley/Gatton/Helidon services all of which were Roma St based (or Ipswich in the case of some short working railcar services to the west).

At present in the offpeak, Cleveland and some Gold Coast trains are the only regular terminators at Bowen Hills.  Surely a return to nearly all services running through wouldn't impose any more problems now than it did up to 1993?

Since it appears that upgrading the Doomben line is so unpalatable / inconceivable even to this group, let alone to TransLink & QR, my position is now

"Either pair it with Cleveland and run it on the same basis as the rest of the system, or just close it.".

If there is no support for operating the line properly, then it may as well go.

[somebody]

If there is no support for operating the line properly, then it may as well go.

I think there is some support for operating it as properly as the rest of the network.

[SteelPan]

This line is an under-utilised potential gold mine, waiting for some planners with a touch of vision and it will be a real goer for Brisbane and CityTrain.

The core of this line can form the basis of goals to service both Northshore and the wider Tradecoast region - the fact such a line sits there year in/year out, with minimal commitment to its operation and growth, save vague studies etc it's a shameful waste, the regions concerned are economic powerhouses, just waiting to be slipped in to Turbo.....    

[duncang]

Assuming the line is a goer from the technical side, what needs to happen to well, make it happen?

Elections are about 12 months away, and the way things are going, the local state MP (Tim Nicholls) is likely to be a senior member of the new government... if that helps  

Thanks,
Duncan

[SteelPan]

Assuming the line is a goer from the technical side, what needs to happen to well, make it happen?

Elections are about 12 months away, and the way things are going, the local state MP (Tim Nicholls) is likely to be a senior member of the new government... if that helps  

Thanks,
Duncan

I'll leave it for the engineers to get into the nuts-and-bolts, but obviously a line like that with the high density and Tradecoast region potential, will require and justify a substantial amount of work right along its length.  It's about dollars of course, but, the payoff will be there, given the density and trade potential.  LOOK at the enormous opportunities ahead of the once "white elephant" Airtrain.

[colinw]

Anyone who doubts the need to upgrade the Doomben line & extend to Hamilton North Shore just needs to read this.

The Courier-Mail -> Green light for 582-apartment, three-tower residential development on Hamilton Northshore

DEVELOPMENT GREEN LIGHT: An artist's impression of the three-tower residential apartment development, Foreshore Hamilton, which is to be built on the Hamilton Northshore

THE urban renewal of Hamilton Northshore continues, with approval given for a three-tower residential project featuring 582 one and two-bedroom units.

The maximum building height in the $300 million Mirvac project will be 23 storeys, with an 18-storey and an eight-storey building as well. In all, there will be 582 residential apartments next to a central landscaped pedestrian arbour.

A number of developers are working on projects within the 304ha Northshore Hamilton precinct, which comes under the domain of the Urban Land Development Authority.

Once the precinct previously used mainly for industrial purposes is redeveloped, it is expected to be home to about 10,000 people.

Mirvac chief executive officer Matthew Wallace said his company believed the precinct was a major growth centre and believed within the next 10 years it would evolve similarly to South Bank.

The development Foreshore Hamilton will be built on a 7637sq m site in Hercules St, previously owned by the Department of Primary Industry. It will target the affordable accommodation market.

"We are planning a range of innovative one and two-bedroom apartments on the site and our research indicates that there will be significant demand for this product in this location," he said.

It is hoped the first residences will be released in September.

Many of Queensland's major developers are building residential towers in the Northshore Hamilton precinct including Australand, Devine, Leighton Properties and Brookfield Residential Properties.

Eventually there will be thousands of units in the precinct.

Thousands of people to support a decent public transport service.

[O_128]

Simple, mirvac builds the station and gov builds the track.

[#Metro]

That's a great idea and already mooted for Milton.

[BrizCommuter]

Simple, mirvac builds the station and gov builds the track.

The developers should be made to contribute towards public transport access. This is occurring in London for Crossrail, and Northern Line extension to Battersea.

[mufreight]

Should this not also apply to the Exhibition redevelopment with the contribution going to the CRR project.   

[colinw]

And the huge developments planned at Woolloongabba, and even the Yeerongpilly TOD. 

[SurfRail]

I know the project team is looking at how to be financially sustainable (ie in the specific sense of funding/recouping expenses on the project, not just in the larger economic sense of having good PT available).  Probably some combination of selling airspace rights, developer contributions, discounted rates and direct PT levies instead, land value capture etc.

[Stillwater]

This raises the interesting prospect of a 'betterment tax'.  A 'betterment tax' is where the government claws back some of the increase in the value of land as a result of a new development, or a more comprehensive development, being built on top of it.  It is also a means for the government to charge the developer (over time), in installments, for the 'betterment' it renders to the developer's site by way of improved services, such as a railway line and station. 

[Stillwater]

To introduce a betterment tax, the Qld Government would not have to go too far to find a model.  Just pass this act through the Queensland Parliament:

http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/sl/1991-7/19910403-6208/pdf/1991-7.pdf