NorthShore / Doomben Line

[somebody]

Rare agreement with RTT_rules.

[ozbob]

Trump ... Moreton Bay Regional Council is contributing $105 million for MBRL.

[somebody]

Trump ... Moreton Bay Regional Council is contributing $105 million for MBRL.

Be that as it may, I can't see it happening from BCC.

[SurfRail]

Trump ... Moreton Bay Regional Council is contributing $105 million for MBRL.

$120 million from GCCC for Gold Coast Rapid Transit.

Ongoing funding from GCCC and SCRC for local bus and paratransit services.

Councils pay for the bus stop infrastructure with cocontributions from TransLink.

Funding in Australia is always going to be a multilegged beast, it is something that just has to be dealt with unless there is serious constitutional reform (and there is no indication that will happen anytime soon).

Let's be practical.  BCC wants to spend billions of dollars on more road capacity on KSD and on LX grade separations, and people take umbrage with the suggestion that they may want to tip a few million per year into getting the Doomben line working? 

[SurfRail]

^ You may be right, but it was basically a precondition to GCRT happening that GCCC tip funding in.  Given the size of their annual transport budget anyway, I prefer to take the pragmatic approach.

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail Quest click here!

Rail lobby group calls for increased services on Doomben line to reduce traffic

Rail lobby group calls for increased services on Doomben line to reduce traffic

    by: Peta Fuller, City North News
    From: Quest Newspapers
    August 29, 2012 8:40AM

A public transport lobby group has called for Sunday services to be introduced on the Doomben line.

Robert Dow from Rail Back on Track said on top of increasing frequencies in the area, the addition of trains on Sundays would help boost patronage by making the line more attractive.

"The road situation in that area is getting worse by the day, the Kingsford Smith Drive upgrade is at a stalemate, why wouldn't you add trains to the Doomben line?''

He said increasing the service frequency was the key to making it work.

"The reason why it does not have good patronage overall is that there's poor frequency and there are plenty of examples around Brisbane that this argument works, like the BUZ bus services,'' he said.

A Translink spokesman said Sunday passengers could use the route 303 bus-rail service.

When City North News canvassed locals, many were surprised the area did not already have a Sunday train service.

Nundah's Lee Andrew said he relied on the line for work and said the mid-week service was "appalling''.

"It's a bit of an inconvenience for locals, even during the weekdays, the service is appalling," he said.

Hendra resident Bonnie Brandt said she used the train line regularly and thought locals would use a Sunday service.

[Stillwater]

Yet another reason for the Doomben Line to be upgraded:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/racecourse-edges-closer-to-residential-highrises-20121102-28ozu.html

[colinw]

Ministerial Media Statement -> click here

If Northshore is to become a new "employment hub" for Brisbane, then it will surely require public transport services to match that status.

Deputy Premier, Minister for State Development, Infrastructure and Planning
The Honourable Jeff Seeney

Thursday, November 22, 2012

New business hub – a driver of economic growth

Commencement of Stage 1 of a $450 million business and innovation precinct at Northshore Hamilton underscores the Newman Government's determination to drive growth in the Queensland economy.

A private joint venture, BTP Development Services, will develop a five hectare site on part of old northshore Port of Brisbane lands to create a major new commercial space between the CBD, Brisbane Airport and Australia TradeCoast under an agreement with the Government through the ULDA.

Deputy Premier and Minister for State Development, Infrastructure and Planning Jeff Seeney said it would be the first of many such arrangements as the ULDA is transformed into Economic Development Queensland (EDQ) within his department.

"Northshore Hamilton is a good example of what the ULDA could have achieved and what EDQ will proceed with in the future.

"EDQ will pursue these types of agreements to deliver projects that will provide economic growth for communities and the state.

"Importantly EDQ will work with local government – rather than overriding it - to identify and proceed with projects that councils consider are important and beneficial."

Mr Seeney said Northshore Hamilton would become a new employment hub for Brisbane.

The agreement with BTP Development Services, a joint venture of companies Graystone, Harvest and Alceon, is to develop up to 65,000 square metres of commercial space in a new office and innovation precinct over a number of years.

"I am excited by BTP's proposed business and innovation precinct which will transform unutilised former dock land into a high quality development offering business and employment opportunities with ready access to the airport and the motorway," Mr Seeney said.

Northshore Hamilton will create a mixed use community with residential, commercial and business developments.

The business precinct will focus on knowledge intensive industries with typical tenants likely to include medical and health care industries, IT, electronics, biotechnology, aviation and aerospace industries.

[ENDS] 22 November 2012

[ozbob]

Not in Brisbane,  they will all ' telecommute' or some other such babble ...

[colinw]

More like they will all drive there along the newly upgraded Kingsford Smith Drive.

At the very least this development should be getting a high standard CityCat service.

[ozbob]

I am being a bit tongue in cheek Colin.

Yes, it will be just more massive congestion and gridlock.  Can transport planners in Brisbane open a sardine can?  Is that too beyond their obvious limited abilities ... 

[colinw]

Brisbane Times -> Council vote seals tracks' future

A unanimous vote on at a Brisbane City Council meeting yesterday has been labelled a win for Australian racing as it seals the future of the country's only capital city twin tracks through a multi-million dollar development master plan.

Councillors from both sides of the aisle united to grant preliminary approval of the major Brisbane Racing Club proposal, lodged with council last year and set to completely transform the Doomben and Eagle Farm tracks.

BRC now has a period of 10 years to lodge development applications for nine individual precincts contained within the master plan, which includes a new hotel, outdoor sporting and child care facilities, retail, food markets and residential apartments.


The draft Racecourse Precinct Neighbourhood Plan provides for towers up to 15 storeys high.

It's expected that people could be living at the track in five years, though it is likely the plan won't be realised in entirety until at least 2022.

But Lord Mayor Graham Quirk said the plan was ultimately about making the city's racing facilities a world-class standard, with new stands, better tracks, internal stables and more parking central to the deal.

Ahead of the plan's approval, Cr Quirk said the council had confronted the "scary possibility" of losing one of the two tracks due to problems faced by the industry.


Brisbane Racing Club's proposal for high-rise residential development could see people living near the courses by 2020.

"Brisbane is unique in that we're the only capital city in Australia that has two high-quality horse racing facilities side-by-side within 10 kilometres of the CBD and I want to see that remain," he said.

"Horse racing is an expensive industry to run but is a significant employer of locals. This is also prime inner-city land, which is why it's important we support innovative solutions such as this master plan which helps cater for growth whilst protecting the future of racing in Brisbane for generations to come."

As previously reported, the plan allows for the construction of towers up to 15 storeys high at the tracks – a move commensurate with the draft Racecourse Precinct Neighbourhood Plan which provides for buildings up to seven storeys high elsewhere in the area.

That local plan is being developed by council in tandem with the BRC proposal and will progress in the New Year.

[colinw]

15 storey apartments, commercial development, hourly train!

Cue the car chaos.

[somebody]

Charting Transport shows this part of Brisbane to be particularly under performing in PT mode share (as well as Moggill).

[nathandavid88]

In other words, QR has 10 years to make the Doomben line a respectable inner city train line or the area will face CARmageddon! Hopefully, the thousands more people who will move into the area might prove to be a nice carrot.

To quote Top Gear: "How hard can it be?"

[colinw]

The irony is that the area was built on a backbone of very frequent rail service, in the form of trams to Clayfield, Ascot/Doomben and Ascot Orial Park, with lines via Sandgate Road (Clayfield) & Kingsford Smith Drive (Ascot).

Ascot/Doomben:



Ascot Oriel Park:



Clayfield:



It is unsurprising that in tram days, the Pinkenba line was poorly serviced as the trams provided a far more direct & frequent service.  However with the trams long gone and the bus service today being far less frequent, it is disappointing that the railway has failed to step up to the challenge.

It is interesting looking at the old tram maps too, note the way the tram always managed to deliberately terminate short of the railway or otherwise avoid co-ordinating with it.  Same thing at Salisbury on the south side, and at Toowong, where the trams managed to dodge the rail station!  "Trains are the enemy" was deeply embedded in the Brisbane City Council tramway culture, and persists in Brisbane Transport thinking to this day.

Anyway, enough reminiscing, this is 2012 and the rail service still sucks despite the big plans for the area. Not good enough!

[petey3801]

I await (in horror) for the annoucement of a new busway along the Kingsfordsmith Drive.

Nah, they'll just trot out the double-deck roadway along there/on the river itself or the tunnel underneath the current road again.. It's difficult getting used to lousy public transport again after being in Europe and using mostly PT!

[huddo45]

It is interesting looking at the old tram maps too, note the way the tram always managed to deliberately terminate short of the railway or otherwise avoid co-ordinating with it.  Same thing at Salisbury on the south side, and at Toowong, where the trams managed to dodge the rail station!  "Trains are the enemy" was deeply embedded in the Brisbane City Council tramway culture, and persists in Brisbane Transport thinking to this day.

Let's give credit where it's due.
      The Clayfield tram line was opened in 1901 and Toowong in 1904 by the Brisbane Tramways Company Limited. The Brisbane City Council didn't exist until 1925 so can hardly be held responsible for the choice of routes. The real villian of the story was the Queensland Government Railways, who didn't want trams competing with the suburban trains. The extension to Evans Rd Salisbury from Moorooka was built during WWII to serve the munitions factories. 

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Riverfront Hamilton land opened up to market

[ozbob]

Transport failure ...

Brisbanetimes -->Northshore Hamilton: flyover 

[ozbob]

For interest ...

The Brisbane Courier 14 Sep 1899

THE HAMILTON TRAMWAY. LAYING- THE FIRST RAIL. A LARGE GATHERING.

>> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3701552

[Derwan]

I had a look at the website - interactive maps and the like.

By the looks, they're going to rely solely on existing public transport.  The only infrastructure change will be moving Brett's Wharf a bit closer.

There is a proposed "internal bus" between the urban village, residential areas and the business precinct within the development area.  This is the only bus that will actually go THROUGH the area. To get anywhere else, it's either bus from Kingsford Smith Drive or City Cat on the river.

There is no preserved corridor for rail (extension from Doomben).  Under this plan, there can be no rail.

[ozbob]

Going to be a nightmare in the years to come.  We are really being governed by idiots ..

[colinw]

Chill pill time people, the first part of the Coldstores branch corridor, through to the KSD / Curtin Ave area, is indeed to be preserved.  This is clearly indicated in the interactive masterplan in at least two places, and can be seen in the masterplan map as well.  I have added a red line showing the path of the preserved corridor, although it is unclear to me whether it would swing around to a station on the bottom level of the large building where the visible corridor terminates, or go in a more southerly direction past the old industrial tank farm.

Anyway, this development is not quite as dire as it looks at first glance.

In any case, I think rail would be the 2nd tier PT option after a much improved citycat and KSD BUZ.

[colinw]

In terms of infrastructure required, the major cost would actually be a road over rail bridge at KSD.  Drop the branch into a trench as much as is possible within gradient constraints.  Put KSD over the top. Simple single track extension to an el-cheapo station stylistically like a G:Link stop. Re-use the disused overhead infrastructure from Doomben to Eagle Farm or Salisbury to Acacia Ridge - or new if that turns out cheaper than relocating the old stuff.

The road bridge is going to be the major cost.

The other question is whether the extra running time to go one more station  blows up the now half hourly Doomben timetable, and thus requires a part duplication elsewhere on the branch.  If the service gets popular thanks to the 15K people at Hamilton it would probably end up triggering duplication of part or all of the branch anyway - the road over rail bridge on KSD should thus cater for 2 tracks even 'though only one will be built initially.

[ozbob]

Even with the 'widening' of KSD, still going to be a congestion sewer nightmare.

Folks would be better off  busing or walking into Doomben.

Queensland is just not with it.  I was impressed with Port Melbourne development, not dissimilar in some respects.  Serviced magnificently by the light rail on the old Port Melbourne VR branch. Marvellous.

In Queensland every thing is too hard, too many non-obstacles that other jurisdictions just sort.

[ozbob]

In terms of infrastructure required, the major cost would actually be a road over rail bridge at KSD.  Drop the branch into a trench as much as is possible within gradient constraints.  Put KSD over the top. Simple single track extension to an el-cheapo station stylistically like a G:Link stop. Re-use the disused overhead infrastructure from Doomben to Eagle Farm or Salisbury to Acacia Ridge - or new if that turns out cheaper than relocating the old stuff.

I had a meeting with the former DPremier once, where he actually outlined exactly that Colin, ie. putting the line into a cutting at KSD.

Who knows might happen in 2031!   2051! 

[colinw]

In Queensland every thing is too hard, too many non-obstacles that other jurisdictions just sort.

Sadly, with the possible exception of WA, I think QLD is merely the "trend leader" on that front. The dysfunction IS spreading - look at the cost and tantrums of Sydney NWRL, or the utterly outrageous cost of the South Morang extension, or the on-again off-again and how half baked Adelaide Electrification.

I've been spending a fair bit of time at our Docklands Drive office in Melbourne, and have grown to love the cheap and cheerful extension of the trams down to Harbour Town.  Just hop a 70, 86 or free circle tram at the front door of the office.  Intrigued to see that the Docklands Drive tram line uses normal rails, not grooved tram rail too.

I have to wonder, from seeing the Docklands area tram extensions, if the Gold Coast system could not have been built a hell of a lot cheaper than it was simply by tapping Melbourne expertise and tagging on the tram order with the Melbourne built Bombardiers.  But co-ordination and skill sharing between states seems to elude this dysfunctional shambles that we jokingly call a nation.

Getting back on track with the Hamilton extension - there is really no reason why that could not be done as a quick and cheap extension from Doomben.  No need for fancy Taj Mahal stations - a platform with Go Card readers and TransLink orange shelters will do.  As I already said, major expense is getting over or under KSD.

Take the Doomben line trains to northern periphery of Northshore at Curtin Ave area and, combined with KSD bus and CityCat we would have ourselves a reasonably decent waterfront precinct. 

Of course, I expect the concept of such sensible planning and infrastructure development to utterly elude either the numbnuts of either party in George St,or the career do-nothing obfuscators who populate QLD Transport and the smouldering remains of the once great QR.

Pardon my cynicism, but the last 12 months, still working in the industry but under a new name, has made my view of this country very bleak indeed.  Only way to get money spent on rail infrastructure or service is either (a) to pork barrel an electorate or (b) to export greenhouse gases to the world while denying there is a problem.

Queensland is merely the advance guard in this dysfunction. Its spreading - Federally, to other states as well.  Even NZ is doing it better now.

[ozbob]

... career do-nothing obfuscators who populate QLD Transport ...

Sums it up well Colin!

We battle on ..   

[Derwan]

Chill pill time people, the first part of the Coldstores branch corridor, through to the KSD / Curtin Ave area, is indeed to be preserved.  This is clearly indicated in the interactive masterplan in at least two places, and can be seen in the masterplan map as well.  I have added a red line showing the path of the preserved corridor, although it is unclear to me whether it would swing around to a station on the bottom level of the large building where the visible corridor terminates, or go in a more southerly direction past the old industrial tank farm.

First, if it was "clearly indicated" it'd have a dotted line in the map - even if it was "rail corridor preservation".  (This is a go at the map, not you Colin.  Thanks for doing their job and adding the line for us.)

Second, what's the point of only one station that's right next to Kingsford Smith Drive?  It's only a few hundred metres from Doomben!  Why not take the line down further and put a station in the heart of the residential area - maybe in the "Northshore Central Precinct"?  Yes - some existing properties might be affected but it'd provide a far better long-term solution!

[colinw]

I'll point out that there never was a rail corridor any further than what has (apparently) been grudgingly preserved.  But I do think it would have been preferable to designate a corridor for rail (possibly on viaduct) further into the precinct, preferably in the direction of the CityCat terminus.

However, at least we have the possibility of a station on KSD, close to both Northshore and parts of Hamilton, and in a much more visible and accessible location than Doomben.

It may only be 700 or so metres, but in terms of the psychology of accessibility there is a world of difference between a station in the KSD/Curtin Ave area and a station tucked away down the backstreets of Doomben.

I'll go so far to say that if this extension does NOT occur, the Doomben line is probably the Doomed line in the longer term.

[HappyTrainGuy]

It's been doomed since the line closed the first time.

[#Metro]

The next biggest development since South Bank and the train line is just ONE station short! Ha! QUEENSLAND!!
If you actually want passengers on Doomben line, the line needs to extend right there. Bus interchange at Doomben is not the best given all the turn bans etc, turnaround and transfer at Remora Rd is much easier.

I would not overcook it. All the infrastructure proposed could easily wipe out any net value of developing the place at all. There is also patronage risk as well. Rail will accelerate the development IMHO. Doomben Station is too far away, right on the edge of the 800m walk shed, and the services are 30 minutes anyway, so the actual 'pull' of the station is much less.

KISS.

First work out if the rail can get into the place on 30 minute and 15 minute frequency.
I think it should be possible given that services can pass at stations, shouldn't be a problem.
Simple terminus station at Northshore, just before crossing Remora Rd.

Leave the level crossing in.

[red dragin]

Are the Hamilton Reach crowd even the train catching type?  :conf

The CityCat maybe as it's more middle upper class to take the boat to work instead of the Merc/Bimmer, but not a train.

[dancingmongoose]

First work out if the rail can get into the place on 30 minute and 15 minute frequency.
I think it should be possible given that services can pass at stations, shouldn't be a problem.
Simple terminus station at Northshore, just before crossing Remora Rd.

Leave the level crossing in.

Question is, can KSD cope with having a train run through on average every 10 minutes during peak (4TPH peak and 2TPH counter)?

[ozbob]

Grade separation will be in place.

[Derwan]

Are the Hamilton Reach crowd even the train catching type?  :conf

The CityCat maybe as it's more middle upper class to take the boat to work instead of the Merc/Bimmer, but not a train.

Times are changing.  We're seeing a lot of Gen Y'ers giving up the dream of owning their own home or even a car in many cases.  They'd rather live in their fancy apartments spending the majority of their pay on rent and then catching public transport everywhere.  But yes, I think they'd be more inclined to catch a ferry than a train, but then not everyone needs to go to the city - or somewhere near the river.

[red dragin]

Are the Hamilton Reach crowd even the train catching type?  :conf

The CityCat maybe as it's more middle upper class to take the boat to work instead of the Merc/Bimmer, but not a train.

Times are changing.  We're seeing a lot of Gen Y'ers giving up the dream of owning their own home or even a car in many cases.  They'd rather live in their fancy apartments spending the majority of their pay on rent and then catching public transport everywhere.  But yes, I think they'd be more inclined to catch a ferry than a train, but then not everyone needs to go to the city - or somewhere near the river.

Having managed apartment complex's at Kangaroo Point, Woolloongabba, Milton & Kelvin Grove over the past seven years, most of our "Gen Y'ers" had cars and used them. Part of my job was constantly chasing the 2nd car out of the visitor car parks (amazing what happens when one car gets towed away and you tell everyone about it  ) It was only our internationals that really didn't have cars.

Average rents on those property's are $400-$500 per week. Hamilton Reach appears to be $500-$700 per week  . Given that you shouldn't be allowed to spend any more than 30% of your income per week on rent (if they are a responsible agent), I don't expect too many Gen Y'ers on $85k+ per year. My household is on $90k per year and we just manage to get by paying $340 a week (33 & 31 yrs old)

My personal believe is that the cost of providing a train and infrastructure would not generate the returns required. A bus can achieve a more suitable service for less capital outlay in my opinion.

[STB]

Are the Hamilton Reach crowd even the train catching type?  :conf

The CityCat maybe as it's more middle upper class to take the boat to work instead of the Merc/Bimmer, but not a train.

Times are changing.  We're seeing a lot of Gen Y'ers giving up the dream of owning their own home or even a car in many cases.  They'd rather live in their fancy apartments spending the majority of their pay on rent and then catching public transport everywhere.  But yes, I think they'd be more inclined to catch a ferry than a train, but then not everyone needs to go to the city - or somewhere near the river.

Having managed apartment complex's at Kangaroo Point, Woolloongabba, Milton & Kelvin Grove over the past seven years, most of our "Gen Y'ers" had cars and used them. Part of my job was constantly chasing the 2nd car out of the visitor car parks (amazing what happens when one car gets towed away and you tell everyone about it  ) It was only our internationals that really didn't have cars.

Average rents on those property's are $400-$500 per week. Hamilton Reach appears to be $500-$700 per week  . Given that you shouldn't be allowed to spend any more than 30% of your income per week on rent (if they are a responsible agent), I don't expect too many Gen Y'ers on $85k+ per year. My household is on $90k per year and we just manage to get by paying $340 a week (33 & 31 yrs old)

My personal believe is that the cost of providing a train and infrastructure would not generate the returns required. A bus can achieve a more suitable service for less capital outlay in my opinion.

A lot of the older Gen Yers (25-30 years) will mostly be in the workforce now though so will have for quite a few of them, the income to afford a place of that nature, and most of my Gen Y friends do tend to prefer to live fairly close to the city / city surrounds (normally no further than 10kms from the city) - only several of my friends (Gen Y and Z) live out in the burbs (beyond 15-20kms from the city).

My personal preference is to live close to the city myself, hopefully I'll be able to do that soon.  I know for one thing with myself (Gen Yer - 30 years old), I most definitely do not want to buy a house, much happier to rent and move around.

[ozbob]

Media Release
Deputy Premier, Minister for Transport, Minister for Infrastructure, Local Government and Planning and Minister for Trade
The Honourable Jackie Trad

Preferred developer of Brisbane riverfront site at Northshore Hamilton announced

A new $400 million waterfront community is a step closer after the Queensland Government announced it will work exclusively with Leighton Properties to finalise a detailed proposal to design and build apartment, retail and commercial buildings in Northshore Hamilton.

Deputy Premier and Minister for Infrastructure, Local Government and Planning Jackie Trad said the announcement of this project would support approximately 500 jobs during construction.

The Palaszczuk Government will invest $20 million to develop a shared public precinct and boost community infrastructure.

"Northshore Hamilton is one of Australia's largest urban renewal projects, stretching along 2.5 kilometres of Brisbane riverfront land and the revitalisation of this under-utilised, inner city area will create a new residential and retail hub for the community that will be a boost for Brisbane's economy," Ms Trad said.

"Hundreds of jobs will be created during the construction phase of Leighton's proposed development and their design proposal also includes space for approximately 18 retail and service businesses."

"With over 700 apartments planned, there will be a permanent residential population for businesses to service, as well as visitors to the planned parkland and new community swimming pool."

"The Queensland Government will fund the construction of a new community swimming pool which will be integrated into the overall design and serve as a key centrepiece for the precinct."

"The design team consists of notable Malaysian architect Ken Yeang, whose firm has received over 70 awards in 25 years including the Prinz Claus Award (Netherlands) and the Aga Khan Award for Architecture (Geneva)."

Mr Yeang's design intends to deliver a world class sub-tropical eco-master plan of "building in the park".

Ms Trad said Economic Development Queensland (EDQ) ran a two-stage competitive bid process for the site.

"Understandably this rare opportunity to develop a two hectare parcel of land on Brisbane's riverfront attracted top-tier developers, all bidding for the chance to turn it into something special," Ms Trad said.

"Great competition has resulted in a wonderful outcome for Brisbane, with Leighton's proposal including a riverfront parkland and boardwalk which the community can easily access and use."

"A new community swimming pool, which the State Government will deliver, will also be integrated into the overall design of this precinct."

Leighton Properties Project Director, John Campbell, said they were excited to be announced as the preferred developer for this sought-after site.

"We put a lot of thought into the public parkland and how to integrate it into the design of the apartments – and I think the result is quite unique," Mr Campbell said.

Earlier this month, Northshore Hamilton was the recipient of a national award at the 2015 Property Council of Australia / Rider Levett Bucknall Innovation and Excellence Awards.

"This is an excellent example of how to get the planning balance right in terms of sustainability, liveability and prosperity through good planning."

"This is why our Planning Reform Discussion paper, released this week, is imperative to future planning in Queensland," Mrs Trad said.