NorthShore / Doomben Line

[ghostryder]

All
IIRC these signals have been retained for signal training and tuition, as there are/were other semaphores in other parts of the state.

scott

[Fares_Fair]

g'day ghostryder,

just a quick abbreviation question, what does IIRC stand for ?
Is it "It Is Reasonable to Conclude" ? Only cliche I can think of that would fit.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Mozz]

If I recall correctly

[#Metro]

Abbreviations: http://netforbeginners.about.com/cs/netiquette101/a/abbreviations.htm

[Fares_Fair]

Thank you Mozz and Tramtrain.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

Is there anything preventing a 15 minute frequency on this line with a cross at Ascot?

Off peak, I can see that the current pairing with Cleveland wouldn't work while the cross is at Thorneside.  However, messing with the line pairing or crossing at Wellington Point (coincidentally) would make it work.

[somebody]

From the City North News 25th November pages 1 and 5

Way off track

Front page




Page 5

Electronic version: http://city-north-news.whereilive.com.au/news/story/way-off-track/

DUPLICATION of the Doomben rail line and extending the track to the Northshore Hamilton development have been touted as the most economical ways to improve the rail network in north Brisbane.

``It's an absolute no-brainer,''  said Rail Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow.

``I have looked at every station and there is absolutely no problem duplicating this line.''

However, commuters using the Doomben train line may have to wait up to 20 years for a duplication of the track, which is already 60 years behind schedule.

Despite the initial works for the duplication being completed in the 1950s, a Transport and Main Roads spokesman said the department had no immediate plans to duplicate the existing Doomben line.

``The draft Connecting SEQ 2031 plan suggests preserving a corridor to potentially extend the Doomben line in the future,'' he said.

Mr Dow believes the cost to upgrade the line and build a new station at Northshore Hamilton would be about $300 million.

``There would be no need for residential resumptions, which will keep the cost significantly down,'' he said.

``This is a very cost-effective investment and it makes absolutely no sense not to do it.''

Rail Back on Track estimates its proposal could carry 30,000 extra people each hour and easily accommodate 30 trains running each hour.

$300m for the duplication + new station?  Why's it so expensive?  That's almost what the Varsity Lakes extension cost.

[O_128]

KSD underpass and this i assume involves duplicating the whole lin

[SteelPan]

   The more things change - the more they stay the same with QR.  How can any organisation in SE Qld (other than the flat-Earthers who mope around QR's HQ) not embrace every possible opportunity to expand rail - we're going to need every bit of it we can get!  But no, in QR world, it's still the 1990's (at the latest) and that's been way generous to them - the overall lack of serious and sustained growth in QR's SE Qld network should warrant, but will never receive, a Royal Commission - yes, you read right - how generations of "management" could pass through the place and see so little action is a scandal - of course the deadbeats who've held the role of Transport Ministers for the last 20-25yrs have not helped!

Bring on the Doomben line upgrade and Northshore - if QR's current leadership is not up to the job - scrap it and start again with a NEW management team!            

[#Metro]

$300m for the duplication + new station?  Why's it so expensive?  That's almost what the Varsity Lakes extension cost.

I don't know, but everything in QLD seems very expensive. I'm not sure why.
The amount of money saved from skimping on the duplication for the entire length would be minimal IMHO. May as well do the entire thing at once.

[colinw]

$300 million seems very much excessive to me.  Maybe $100 million with station works and perhaps another $100 million to extend and sink the line under Kingsford Smith Drive.

QR itself has shown it can be done much cheaper than recent inflated projects in SEQ.  Some of the coal field duplications in the past decade have come in as low as $1 million per km including electrification & signalling.  We have slipped back a long way since the days of the Ipswich to Rosewood electrification costing $20 million.

To give more recent examples on the coal fields - the Westwood to Wycarbah duplication, some 7km of track, cost $32M (or $4.5m / km).
http://coalrail.qrnetwork.com.au/COALRAIL-Projects/Blackwater-System/Westwood-to-Wycarbah-Duplication.aspx

The Westwood to Wycarbah Duplication project was completed in August 2008 and involved the duplication of approximately 7km of track between Westwood and Wycarbah.  It also covered the associated civil works (including bridges), electrification, signalling and telecommunications.

Note: no bridges on the Doomben line!

No stations involved, but the upgrade occurred next to a running heavy haul coal line that could not be shut down.  Throw in stations and a higher density of signals for suburban operation at short headway, and I don't think my estimate of $100 million is too far off the mark.

Mind you, gold plating of rail projects in major east coast cities seems to be the norm, and I believe suits the ends of the anti-rail bureacracies in QLD, NSW & Vic, and the vested interests of the civil engineering consortiums.  Huge construction profits are being creamed off, while our big three cities sink into increasingly congested & unsustianable messes.  Government will to do something about it - nil - other than glossy brochures, media releases and vague promises of "indicative 2031 networks".  NOT GOOD ENOUGH!

[ozbob]

All stations will need significant upgrades (remember DDA requirements), plus a new signalling system on the full duplication.

Engineering works will cost a bit as well for the cutting under KSD.  $300M is a ball park maximum figure.

This line is a no-brainer.  Not only potential to move pax in a non congested road environment but also ramping up inner city capacity.

[somebody]

Anything which gives this line a 15 minute frequency, especially in peak, is to be encouraged.  That really makes the line useful, rather than the annoyance of somewhat unproductively using up CBD paths.

[somebody]

I used to think this line was a waste of time, but it does seem to have a few positive features.  Not least is competing with Kingsford Smith Drive.  I wonder how much to upgrade to allow crosses at Ascot?

[Stillwater]

I support the $300m ballpark estimate.  Don't forget the ability of this line to serve the Australian Trade Coast workforce, which will grow to be significant over time.

[colinw]

Once more - $300 million for duplication of 3.4km of track (Eagle Jct - Doomben) that has existing corridor in place, and double platforms already at all but 1 station?  Even with DDA works that seems excessive.

Let's compare with another recent project: Salisbury to Kuraby was 9.5km of new track, resumption of several houses at Altandi, new platforms and major rebuilds at 6 stations, 2 rail bridges, a major change to a road over rail bridge (Mains Rd) and bidirectional signalling for 3 tracks - for $258 million.  I entirely fail to see how the Eagle Jct to Doomben section could come in at much over $100 million.  That leaves a tidy $200 million or so for doing something to Hamilton or Eagle Farm (or, more likely, hyper inflated consultants fees and gross profits for contractors).

This ridiculous gold plating of rail projects is a major part of the problem in all east coast cities.  It is moving even minor rail extension projects like Epping to South Morang in Melbourne up into the half billion dollar or more bracket, and rendering any serious extensions of our rail systems completely unaffordable and unable to survive scrutiny by treasury/finance department bureaucrats.

With prices like are being bandied around here, I cannot see any Government doing other than slapping in a bus service for a few million at most.

For a new greenfields railway I can understand such costs, but for duplication and DDA compliant platforms - get real!

[#Metro]

This ridiculous gold plating of rail projects is a major part of the problem in all east coast cities.  It is moving even minor rail extension projects like Epping to South Morang in Melbourne up into the half billion dollar or more bracket, and rendering any serious extensions of our rail systems completely unaffordable and unable to survive scrutiny by treasury/finance department bureaucrats.

I prefer diamond encrusted 

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2007/11/the-worst-diamo/

[Stillwater]

Plus signals, plus extension to North Shore and road/rail works. EIS.   Station upgrades, rolling stock (separate from their operational costs).  Must allow for inflation between now and when work starts.

[Jonno]

All

Council is seeking our input into the 5 ROAD ONLY solutions:

Option 1 - retaining wall in the river, upgrade to six lanes. Estimated cost - $850 million
Option 2 - partial upgrade in sections, upgrade to six lanes. Estimated cost - $255 million
Option 3 - elevated structure over the river, upgrade to six lanes. Estimated cost - $1.35 billion
Option 4 - double-storey tunnel, upgrade to eight lanes. Estimated cost - $3.2 billion
Option 5 - side-by-side tunnel, upgrade to eight lanes. Estimated cost - $2.43 billion

Link to feedback page:

www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-transport/plans-projects/transport-projects/KingsfordSmithDriveUpgrade/Communityconsultation/index.htm

Get online and tell them all the Options will not solve traffic congestion and that the money should be invested in public transport instead.

[O_128]

i agree what about a pt uprgade?

[duncang]

two thumbs up on this 

with the increasing population density in this area the rail services must keep.

[#Metro]

The train (Doomben to Central) is also faster than the CityCat IMHO (Riverside vs Bretts Wharf) on comparable journeys by about 8 mins or so, although I would argue that the ferry being in the river is a complimentary mode because it offers a different menu of connections than the train does (Train offers aiport and northbound and busway connections at Roma St/Central and Bowen Hills, the ferry offers connections to New Farm, Bulimba, Kangaroo Pt and East Brisbane).

The CityCat also does not fall under the definition of mass transit as defined in the 2007 Mass Transit Report, I think because it is hard to increase the frequency beyond a certain point due to the very large dwell times it must spend at the terminals, and I think the cost/passenger is also much more expensive than rail for the CityCat because you need more labour than using a bus (someone to drive the ferry, a ticket seller and a deckhand) per 162 passengers (max), whereas for a train you need 2 people per 916 passengers (assuming morning peak hour fills the vehicles).

Faster speed also means less labour cost expenditure.

The CityCat's speed, the fact it runs in the Brisbane River separate from traffic on any roads anywhere and the fact that it offers a different menu of connections AND through routes East-West to St Lucia (rail goes to Cleveland, buses terminate in the CBD requiring transfer penalty for onward connections) means and the capacity of it means that it will be an important but complimentary mode of transport IMHO.

(Hmm, no citycat icon)  

[ozbob]

Media release 29 December 2010

SEQ: "Car rapid transit" is NOT the only option for Kingsford Smith Drive

RAIL Back on Track observes that an online survey is being run regarding 'options' for transport on Kingsford Smith Drive (1). RAIL Back on Track is deeply disappointed about the options presented, which can be summarised as follows:

Option 1:  ROAD
Option 2:  ROAD
Option 3:  ROAD
Option 4:  ROAD
Option 5:  ROAD

Clearly, the road-coloured glasses are in full operation (2).  What happened to the public transport options?

On closer inspection, the options are presented thus:

1. RETAINING WALL IN THE RIVER (estimated cost $850 million)
2. PARTIAL UPGRADE (estimated cost $255 million) for
3. ELEVATED STRUCTURE OVER THE RIVER (estimated cost $1.35 billion)
4. DOUBLE STOREY TUNNEL (estimated cost $3.2 billion)
5. SIDE-BY-SIDE TUNNEL (estimated cost $2.43 billion)

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"There happens to be a perfectly good railway line serving this area, and with a modest upgrade and extension into the future Hamilton Northshore development it could become a real people mover. RAIL Back on Track believes that the rail option along with bus and ferry improvements, would be the most cost-effective and fiscally prudent way to expand personal mobility in the area."

"Being a local council is no barrier to choosing the rail option. Indeed, there are precedents where local councils have directly campaigned for and directly contributed funds for rail projects. The most recent being the Moreton Bay Regional Council's $105 million contribution for the Moreton Bay Rail Line to Kippa Ring (3)."

"No doubt improvements to the fares and operating hours of Airtrain service would help too and be cheaper than the multi-billion dollar road proposals. The most expensive road option is on such a scale that it would be enough to pay for three world-class Gold Coast Light Rail projects and still have money to spare."

"RAIL Back on Track invites the concerned citizens and the community at large to 'have their say about Kingsford Smith Drive' by going to the web link at (1). Now is your opportunity to have your voice heard!"

"RAIL Back on Track has previously gone into detail about the potential of the Doomben line, and further details may be found here (4,5)."

References:

1. Have your say about Kingsford Smith Drive
www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-transport/plans-projects/transport-projects/KingsfordSmithDriveUpgrade/Communityconsultation/index.htm

2. Road coloured glasses http://backontrack.org/images/rcg.png

3. SEQ: Rail to Kippa-Ring, just the thing! http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4843.0

4. 16 Nov 2010: SEQ: The next station ... is North Shore http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4857.0

5. NorthShore / Doomben Line http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4852.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/12/vote-for-none-of-above.html
The title of this blog post could also apply to voting for Brisbane's politicians!

[ozbob]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/12/vote-for-none-of-above.html
The title of this blog post could also apply to voting for Brisbane's politicians!

[#Metro]

A bus route through Australia Trade Coast is possible. Far from being "too dispersed" the local road network is actually not bad
despite the Gateway motorway severing a few links. I suspect the roads are like this because there are large trucks in the area, so
buses should have no problem getting around. Indeed, a single bus route through the area would put most, if not all
the factories within immediate walking distance of a single bus route.

The route I have chosen is a modification of a cross town route. It would be too hard IMHO to have a dedicated city-direct route, much better
to have a cross town one because then you can serve trips such as

1. Portside at Hamilton and Toombul Shopping centre by Doomben residents (in later years when the ferry terminal/rail terminal is built at Northshore, this will connect
beautifully)

2. Toombul to Eagle Junction (single transfer to all Northbound and Citybound services, Eagle Junction has high frequency rail services all day so no need to
time connections, but there IS a need to make the bus stops more legible and provide information on the platforms)

3. (not shown on map) Toombul to Stafford Shopping Centre, Michelton and Great Western Super Centre) [Basically the previous Cross-town proposal modified with the end bit changed from DFO Airport to Australia Trade Coast).

4. Once the road network of the NorthShore Hamilton area is better defined and developed, the feeder bus route could be re-routed to be taken off KSD altogether and just use Remora Rd, interchange at the new train station, and go on to ATC. (not shown). I find it hard to see a need for super expensive busway using this method IMHO.

It looks like a new station on KSD is also not essential. So a station on KSD is optional. A bus only bridge/short busway connecting KSD with Lamington Ave
is also possible but not essential (as if and when a new station goes in at NorthShore, you could just transfer from that rather than Doomben)


http://s998.photobucket.com/albums/af104/tramtrain/?action=view&current=KSD.png

[#Metro]

I would suggest integrated Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) + rail option.
The BRT would have distinctive "CityGlider style" bus wrapping and painted kerbs. Bus stops every 400m or so along the route.
The route could be a cross town serving:

The Gap Shopping Centre (integrates with BUZ 385)
The Great Western Shopping Centre
Mitchelton (Blackwood St/Main Shops) (integrates with Mitchelton Rail)
Mitchelton Shopping Centre
Stafford Road (Stafford Rd Shopping Centre) (integrates with South Pine Road Frequent Bus Corridor, BUZ 345)
Eagle Junction (Caboolture, Shorncliffe, lines PLUS Gympie Road BUZ 333, and Sandgate Road Frequent Bus Corridor,)
Centro Toombul (Toombul Rail)

the "business" end:
Doomben Line (Hendra, Ascot and Doomben) - again proper bus stops and signs and information will make interchange easy
Portside at Hamilton (Remora Road roundabout) integrates with the new ferry terminal, bretts wharf is within walk distance)
(New Ferry Terminal)
(New Northshore Rail station)
Lavarack Ave East, Curtin Ave, Fison Ave West, Links Ave South (turn around).

Just an idea!

[ozbob]

Media release 23 February 2011

SEQ:  Doomben Line upgrade required

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org), a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers, again calls for the Doomben Line to be upgraded such that it can provide a 15 minute service frequency (1, 2).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Having a train line which ends less than 10km from the CBD being unable to provide a peak direction 15 minute frequency service is something of an embarrassment.  RAIL Back on Track suggests that a minor upgrade including the duplication of the section from Ascot to Doomben and returning the second platform to Ascot into service would be sufficient to have an all day 15 minute frequency without preventing freight from also accessing the line.  This could be done on a modest budget and would also not require a precision cross such as still occurs on the Cleveland line single track.  Another reason is that the current system presents timetabling constraints in peak hour, and the service provided is only moderately useful.  Far better to have a more useful service which can absorb some of the patronage of Albion, Wooloowin and Eagle Junction station."

"While full duplication would improve reliability and remove timetabling constraints, the proposed investment could be done without risking a stranded investment in the future if full duplication is proceeded with."

"Also the current practice of every second Cleveland line train terminating at Bowen Hills seems a waste of time and all of these could run through to Doomben.  Doomben station already has a run around track which any freight trains could use, so freight isn't really a reason not to do this."

"One of the major transport policy failings in south-east Queensland is a failure to properly utilise the assets and the investment all ready made.  Time get transport policy back on track!"

References:

1. 29 Dec 2010: SEQ: "Car rapid transit" is NOT the only option for Kingsford Smith   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5166.0

2. 16 Nov 2010: SEQ: The next station ... is North Shore   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4857.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[colinw]

Good release. 

One question: what freight?  I thought just about all freight service on the line had ended, and the section beyond Doomben was very quiet these days.

[ozbob]

Might start again one day!  Some wagons stored past Doomben as well.

[somebody]

Good release. 

One question: what freight?  I thought just about all freight service on the line had ended, and the section beyond Doomben was very quiet these days.

I'm not sure, but I thought there were still something like 2 trains/day through there.  That has stopped?

[colinw]

I thought the grain traffic - what little is left - was going to FI, and the fuel traffic on the Hamilton branch had ended.

There was some talk a while back of a Bioethanol plant at Pinkenba near the balloon loop, but I don't know what has happened with that.

I don't think there is enough freight traffic on the branch for it to be considered an impediment to frequent suburban service or vice versa.

[somebody]

I thought the grain traffic - what little is left - was going to FI, and the fuel traffic on the Hamilton branch had ended.

There was some talk a while back of a Bioethanol plant at Pinkenba near the balloon loop, but I don't know what has happened with that.

I don't think there is enough freight traffic on the branch for it to be considered an impediment to frequent suburban service or vice versa.

If there is any freight traffic at all it needs to be able to use the line at some point between the hours of 6am and 11pm.

[ozbob]

Feedback received, thanks.

Good MR.  I should say that I also know that a surprising number of people are now working in the Pinkenba area, often in industries associated with the airport.  How about resurrecting the full train service to Pinkenba?   I suspect that part of the Doomben problem is that it is such a short line, and therefore the potential for patronage is somewhat limited.

[#Metro]

The area is industrial, IMHO it needs a proper bus service to "test" patronage in this area.

Opening full length, that might be a bit complicated if a new station goes into Hamilton someone would have to miss out as the geometry would mean that the frequency would be split on the branches, The alternatives would be to connect Hamilton as BRT feeding into the line... or have the Tradecoast area served by feeder bus.

On a separate but related issue:

I read more into Connecting SEQ 2031 and into the "subway/metro" part last night; and there is "a possibility" of extending the metro from Newstead to Bulimba and then up to Hamilton Northshore and Airport Village.

I was appalled!

This area already has the Airport Line train and Doomben Rail line, why not actually use them before building extremely expensive sexy new infrastructure?

[somebody]

Feedback received, thanks.

Good MR.  I should say that I also know that a surprising number of people are now working in the Pinkenba area, often in industries associated with the airport.  How about resurrecting the full train service to Pinkenba?   I suspect that part of the Doomben problem is that it is such a short line, and therefore the potential for patronage is somewhat limited.

I think it has to be either Hamilton/North Shore OR Pinkenba.  I can't see the line going to both places.  Perhaps a triangle might make such a thing possible at some time, but it may be better to have the train going to Hamilton and the bus feeder to Pinkenba.

[colinw]

Definitely Hamilton North Shore.  I'd rather have the rail to a vibrant TOD than rattling along the back fences of a bunch of sheds.

The nature of Australia Trade Coast is such that it is best served by one or more bus routes.  One employer in the area that I am aware of already puts on a minibus from Eagle Junction for its employees.

A Hamilton North Short line could be a high frequency metro operation to a bustling mixed residential & commercial area.  A Pinkenba line will be more of an "industrial backwater" trundle like the many such lines that once operated in Adelaide, or the now closed Sandown service in Sydney.  It would inevitably be very peaky in demand and almost dead through the day, and thus end up being cut back to a peak hours only operation like the original Pinkenba service was.

As for ideas of extending the already pie-in-the-sky Metro to Hamilton, all I can say is don't be daft!  There is a perfectly good line to Doomben waiting to be re-purposed as a high frequency metro style operation.  If Hamilton is to be served by rail then reuse of the Doomben line is the first option, and the only other thing I'd consider is extending an LRT branch from a proposed Newfarm LRT route, after all trams ran along KSD to Hamilton right up to the '60s.

Extending a Metro to Airport Drive instead of building the proposed 3rd station on Airtrain is even more ridiculous. Whoever wrote that deserves a slap on the back of the head.

There's a perfectly good electrified railway sitting there that could be fixed up for the small change left over from the reduction in cost of the Springfield extension.  Any other proposal (KSD tunneling, Metro, even LRT) is going to cost billions more.

But then this is Queensland, where we ignore or underutilise our existing assets, while at the same time promoting multibillion dollar schemes to duplicate what we already have. That is why a huge percentage of the money spent on public transport over the last 25 years has been used to put back things that we once had and threw away.

[#Metro]

Feeder bus idea to TradeCoast


Could be tweaked, but you get the idea.

[SteelPan]

My concern with this one is yet AGAIN, it's all just taking far to long - Paul Lucas said years ago this idea was been looked at and so far - nothing!  C'mon state govt, deliver - how obvious can it be - ghee, do ya think it's ever gonna be used!      

[ButFli]

Might start again one day!  Some wagons stored past Doomben as well.

I heard (possibly on QRIG) that a tender had been put out for the disposal of those wagons. Just looking at them from the old Gateway Motorway (whatever it's called now) doesn't fill me with confidence in their railworthiness.