New Generation Rollingstock

[verbatim9]

The Adelaide trains are guage convertible the undercarriage can be converted to fit a new guage.

Regarding the lack of rolling stock, what would stop QR from ordering 50 modified TransPerth C series? Probably better than ordering and then trying to fix another 50 NGRs.

There would be no cheap way out of the current NGR contract. However if future orders are not to be NGRs, then work needs to start now to ensure that they are in operation for CRR opening.

Yeah, I get that we're stuck with 75 NGRs, I was meaning more for future requirements (rather than current, which the NGRs really are, despite only a handful being in service so far).

I just thought that buying something similar to a TransPerth C series would reduce development costs (design, tooling etc) and hopefully they actually know how to make a DDA-compliant train. Realistically, the next order needs to be placed now, not two years or more down the track when the NGR mess is sorted.

Adelaide has Bombardier Electric trains similar to the (diesel ones in Vic) but built to standards. Top speed is slower than the NGR's by 20kph or 30kph, "I believe".

I can't see Adelaide trains being of much use in Qld, seeing as how they're standard gauge. That's why I thought TransPerth trains would be a better fit. After all, weren't the TransPerth B-series based off the IMU160/SMU260 series (or was it the other way around)?

[achiruel]

The Adelaide trains are guage convertible the undercarriage can be converted to fit a new guage.

What about the loading gauge though? Some areas in the QR suburban network are pretty tight, eg. suburbans between Roma St and Fortitude Valley.

[verbatim9]

If Bombardier can't supply further trains? Alstom are a great train manufacturer. They also own recent patents for new train technology, which is a bonus. Alstom might be able set up an assembly plant in Australia. It's most likely that the bulk of the work of train manufacturing is done overseas. Unless you pour money and subsidies into Maryborough to make it Automated? Then Downer EDI still don't have all the new patents necessary incorporate new tech into trains. They would have to negotiate to use patented technology which would increase costs.

Don't get me wrong but I would like to see a train manufacturing industry in Australia. It's seems though that all new factories are going to be run mostly by robotics. So the increase of potential mass employment will be limited, countering the political slogans of lots of jobs making future trains in Maryborough.

Boeing has a great model where parts are ordered from all over the world even from Australia. I think that it maybe the same for trains in the medium term. Where Bombardier, Alstom and other companies just order potential specialist's parts from specific countries including Australia.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/998603971013984258

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/998604651820793856

[SurfRail]

Any new rollingstock either has to be subject to tender, or more NGRs arising from an option or extension of the current contract.  Case closed.

[burgo]

This is an aerial image from Nearmap of NGR sitting at Redbank Workshops dated 16/5/2018 https://imgur.com/a/C9mKKJs

[ozbob]

This is an aerial image from Nearmap of NGR sitting at Redbank Workshops dated 16/5/2018 https://imgur.com/a/C9mKKJs

Neat!  Thanks ... 

[not_available]

717 is in service now. Saw it BNE bound.
703 704 705 706 708 709 710
711 712 713 714 716 717 718

[ozbob]

Some new visitors to the  'agistment paddock ' at Redbank Workshops (Progress Rail).

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1003158511541313536

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1003163268867715073



NGRs 733 & 734, with 701 and 715.  715 has been moved next to 701 for company!

[Stillwater]

Seriously, why doesn't QR send a couple of quality control people to India to watch the NGR trains being built?

[ozbob]

Seriously, why doesn't QR send a couple of quality control people to India to watch the NGR trains being built?

TMR have ' control ' of this NGR botch.  TMR decided it wasn't necessary a while back ...   

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1003367135031144448

[matlock]

Saw an NGR going outbound across the Indro bridge yesterday around 12.30pm - what service was that?

[verbatim9]

Saw an NGR going outbound across the Indro bridge yesterday around 12.30pm - what service was that?

They only service the Gold Coast line at present. Maybe travelling back to a stabling yard. Or a test train.

[ozbob]

NGRs are also out on the Doomben line doing revenue runs as well.

There are frequent NGRs (not in revenue service) on the Ipswich line running to and from Wulkuraka.

I often see them early morning passing through Goodna ~3-4am or so as well.  Training / testing I expect.

[verbatim9]

Yeah I forgot about Doomben I caught a NGR service out that way a few weeks back.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1003551829358096384

[HappyTrainGuy]

The Adelaide trains are guage convertible the undercarriage can be converted to fit a new guage.

Regarding the lack of rolling stock, what would stop QR from ordering 50 modified TransPerth C series? Probably better than ordering and then trying to fix another 50 NGRs.

There would be no cheap way out of the current NGR contract. However if future orders are not to be NGRs, then work needs to start now to ensure that they are in operation for CRR opening.

Yeah, I get that we're stuck with 75 NGRs, I was meaning more for future requirements (rather than current, which the NGRs really are, despite only a handful being in service so far).

I just thought that buying something similar to a TransPerth C series would reduce development costs (design, tooling etc) and hopefully they actually know how to make a DDA-compliant train. Realistically, the next order needs to be placed now, not two years or more down the track when the NGR mess is sorted.

Adelaide has Bombardier Electric trains similar to the (diesel ones in Vic) but built to standards. Top speed is slower than the NGR's by 20kph or 30kph, "I believe".

I can't see Adelaide trains being of much use in Qld, seeing as how they're standard gauge. That's why I thought TransPerth trains would be a better fit. After all, weren't the TransPerth B-series based off the IMU160/SMU260 series (or was it the other way around)?

Put down the foam machine.

[SurfRail]

I've been on 722 and 723 this week.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1011452470378156033

[not_available]

I've been on 722 and 723 this week.

Service Not yet
701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715
716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730

16/75 = 21.3%
Will newer NGRs go on new lines or will it be more of a, say "729 enters service -> 706 goes and gets DDA compliant, repeat" scenario?

[InclusionMoves]

Gee guys and girls if I am 'not constructive' I would hate to see what the rest of you get called :-) Got to laugh at the childishness of it all.

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/1011476259304456192

[ozbob]

The RTI is here ..

Interesting RTI  https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/About-us/Right-to-Information/Disclosure-log/2017-Disclosure-log

12 December 2017 135/05414

Emails to/from Neil Scales, Director-General, Department of Transport and Main Roads relating to any Courier-Mail questions and/or newspaper stories about (or linked to) the New Generation Rollingstock Project. This should include any emails mentioning reporters Kelmeny Fraser or Jessica Marszalek. Timeframe: 1 February  2017 - 12 December 2017.

>> https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/-/media/aboutus/rti/disclog/r_135-05414---Released-Documents.pdf

[ozbob]

The really do go to great lengths to control the ' message ' as demonstrated in the RTI.

You were very constructive IM. 

I am now very motivated to put in an RTI for emails where RAIL Back On Track and Robert Dow are mentioned.

Worth the application fee I reckon .. 

[Stillwater]

Heard on ABC radio news tonight Mark Bailey in interview saying that the solution for the NGR non-compliant trains is 'in the design stage'.  That's polly-speak for 'not got very far'.

He said TMR was in 'constructive consultation' with disability advocacy interests about where to from here.

Pity that didn't happen when the NGR trains were in the design phase. 

Edit: Mark Bellaver is a ministerial political operative.  In the past has travelled overseas with Jackie Trad on official business.

[InclusionMoves]

All of what he has said by the sounds of it is true Stillwater. But when when speaks so generally as to hardly sound as though he has spoken at all it is hard to get in trouble with facts. There is a group looking at what to fix. I chose not to be part as we already did this once and government pulled out at the last minute and lodged their now failed human rights exemption. So not in the mood to have my time wasted. They will most likely get a result eventually but I hope they wont want a pat on the back. The Minister put out a statement re funding for Downer to complete NGR. http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2018/3/29/statement-from-transport-and-main-roads-minister-mark-bailey Oh actually its not that one thats from 3 months ago. Excuse me I was confused because the same 3 dot points at the bottom of the statement are contained word for word in the one 3 months ago and the one from today http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2018/6/26/boost-to-queenslands-rail-manufacturing-capacity-at-maryborough Progress is glacially slow.

Geoff

Heard on ABC radio news tonight Mark Bailey in interview saying that the solution for the NGR non-compliant trains is 'in the design stage'.  That's polly-speak for 'not got very far'.

He said TMR was in 'constructive consultation' with disability advocacy interests about where too from here.

Pity that didn't happen when the NGR trains were in the design phase. 

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> New Queensland trains too long to fit in Maryborough workshop

LABOR'S election-eve jobs pledge to fix design flaws with the state's new train fleet in Maryborough will cost taxpayers $10 million as the trains are too long for the local workshop.

Transport Minister Mark Bailey announced on Tuesday the funds would be spent upgrading Downer EDI's Maryborough manufacturing plant to "better accommodate six-car trains".

Works include upgrading powerlines, installing new track and extra cranes.

The workshop is designed to repair the state's existing three-car trains, but the $4.4 billion New Generation Rollingstock fleet is designed as six-car sets.

This is just the latest hurdle to strike the beleaguered NGR rollout and follows Deputy Premier Jackie Trad announcing $150 million of NGR rectifications last year, including access design issues and non-compliant toilets.

Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk announced during last year's election campaign that the repairs would be handled by Downer's Maryborough plant under Labor's local jobs policy, despite Canadian firm Bombardier holding the contract to build the 75 new trains.

It formed part of Labor's campaign strategy and came as its MP in Maryborough Bruce Saunders fought to hold his ultra-marginal seat. Labelled the "Save Bruce Strategy", the funding was on top of a $70 million upgrade already announced by Labor for the Downer plant following a union-backed local jobs campaign.

Downer rail chief executive Michael Miller in March downplayed concerns about whether the new trains could fit in the workshop, saying the cost of upgrades would be "small beer".

Mr Miller said on Tuesday it had since found it would be "beneficial to have a six-car test shed to enable a more appropriate testing process".

Both sides of politics have agreed to release papers on the delayed NGR project.

The project was contracted under the previous Liberal National Party administration in 2014 before Labor took carriage of its delivery.

Labor early last year attacked the LNP for ordering "trains for half-price manufactured in India" but the LNP has pointed out that Downer had pulled out of the tender in 2011.

Disability advocate Geoff Trappett yesterday there was still no "agreed rectification design drawing that anyone from the disability sector has signed off on."

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1011639252117942273

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1011662449571840001

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Queensland rail fail: Taxpayers to pay $10 million towards modifying New Generation Rollingstock

DESIGN problems with the state's new trains could have been fixed by their manufacturer, Bombardier, in Victoria, which would have spared taxpayers a $10 million bill.

The Palaszczuk Government will funnel the money into upgrading rival Downer EDI's workshop at Maryborough to fulfil an election campaign commitment on local jobs in which Labor promised to spend $150 million modifying the New Generation Rollingstock in Maryborough as its MP, Bruce Saunders, battled to hold the seat.

That was despite Canadian multinational Bombardier being under contract to build the trains in India.

Work includes modifying on-board toilets that fail disability access laws, and adding guard workstations, after a Rail, Tram and Bus Union deal guaranteeing their positions on the trains.

Dubbed the "Save Bruce" strategy, the Maryborough pledge followed the Government's allocation of $70 million of work to Downer, on the back of a union-backed local jobs campaign. But it was only revealed this week that the NGR upgrade announcement hinged on a $10 million state-funded workshop upgrade as the Maryborough plant cannot handle the longer NGR trains.

The trains were built as six-car units to save money, as the old-style three-car sets – joined in the middle to create a six-car train – were rarely decoupled. That means the NGR trains are too long for the Maryborough workshop.

Questioned as to whether Bombardier could have done the work itself, a company spokeswoman yesterday confirmed it had the capacity at its Victorian workshop.

Transport Minister Mark Bailey said yesterday Maryborough "is the most suitable location in Queensland'' but did not say whether alternatives, such as Bombardier doing the work at other facilities were considered or costed.

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1012710405066522624

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1012712408891047937

[bretto82]

702 has rejoined the other 4 at REDBANK workshops on the weedman street side near the gatehouse

[ozbob]

702 has rejoined the other 4 at REDBANK workshops on the weedman street side near the gatehouse

Thanks

[red dragin]

702 has rejoined the other 4 at REDBANK workshops on the weedman street side near the gatehouse

Makes me think of the Blues Brothers "we're getting the band back together" 

[SurfRail]

DESIGN problems with the state's new trains could have been fixed by their manufacturer, Bombardier, in Victoria, which would have spared taxpayers a $10 million bill.

And what premium would we have had to pay to put transfer bogies on everything to ship it interstate for extended periods?  At least they can run under their own power for virtually the whole way up here and don't need to be taken off the rails to end up in the right spot.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Opinion: Expensive rail fail continues as does the buck passing between Labor and the LNP

A FRIEND of mine bought a short wheelbase four-wheel drive recently. He did this because he had measured his garage and realised that if he bought a long wheelbase model, it wouldn't fit.

He could, of course, have spent more than he paid for the vehicle extending his garage but as it was his own money, he chose a vehicle that matched the dimensions of his garage.

In politics it's different, as witnessed by the Palaszczuk Government's decision to send Queensland Rail's NGR — New Generation — trains to the Downer EDI workshops in Maryborough to have some of their many faults rectified.

By the time the litany of problems plaguing these trains is addressed, they will be OGR — Old Generation trains. This, however, is no one's fault because the former LNP government says that Labor did it and Labor says — you guessed it.

As politicians never lie, both parties must be right and the ongoing Queensland Rail new train debacle is an act of God. As usual, mugs like you and I get to pick up the tab for monumental bureaucratic and political incompetence.

The only problem with sending the trains to Maryborough, however, was that unlike my friend's four-wheel drive, they didn't fit in the Downer workshops. Someone in government, who is obviously destined for great things, took the trouble to measure them and found they were too long.

This minor irritation was overcome when the Premier produced the special tape measure that she keeps locked away in the top drawer of her desk.

This is the one used in situations as in Maryborough, when you have a local Labor MP such as Bruce Saunders, who is in danger of losing his seat, and trade unions reminding the Premier where her campaign funds come from at election time.

The special tape was taken to Maryborough where measurements showed the six-carriage trains would fit perfectly — as long as the Government spent $10 million making the sheds longer!

There was also the small matter of upgrading overhead power lines, installing a new section of track, building a new spur line and installing extra cranes and what Saunders describes on his Facebook page as "general infrastructure upgrades to support the rectification work", all paid for by the taxpayer.

Apart from these niggling issues, which amount to a significant public subsidy to a private company, Downer EDI was the standout candidate for the job.

The company that built the trains, Bombardier, has said that it has the capacity at its Victorian workshops to do the job. This, however, would not please the trade union reps in Maryborough or help Saunders keep his seat on that other piece of government rolling stock, the Political Gravy Train.

Still, all is well that ends well, for while that dreadful Peter Beattie may have blocked her from making a speech at the Commonwealth Games, the Premier had her moment in the sun at the Logies. You and I paid a reported $1.7 million to stage this event. I'm not sure how much per word when measured against the Premier's speech that represents. I'd need the special calculator she keeps in her top drawer to work that out.

[ozbob]

Days since NGR 701 towed to Wulkuraka

[#Metro]

It's just gravy at every turn. For-profit engineering workshops are not a public service. If Downer wanted a larger shed etc why didn't they get a business loan from the bank like all other companies do?

Could it be because the bank might have a different view of the business' viability?

[JustSomeTrainGuy]

Can the NGR's not be modified at the "purpose built" facility at Wulkuraka? (even if it means Downer EDI does it)

[PoliticalFootball]

It's just gravy at every turn. For-profit engineering workshops are not a public service. If Downer wanted a larger shed etc why didn't they get a business loan from the bank like all other companies do?

Could it be because the bank might have a different view of the business' viability?

Could say the same thing about Wulkuraka too.

[PoliticalFootball]

Can the NGR's not be modified at the "purpose built" facility at Wulkuraka? (even if it means Downer EDI does it)

It's been setup for maintenance, not major overhaul works like will be needed in this case.

Plus look at the bigger picture here. 6 car units are now the future, no matter what design or model they are. With the current governments commitment to building trains in QLD (as it should have always been) that means the next lot will be built at Downer. Hence the government upgrading their shed now under the guise of NGR works. They are probably billing Bombardier for it.