RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Question for those who have a better understanding of these things than I do:
With the addition of CRR, why have the train lines that will use it not been converted to Sydney style automated metro? Aren't these driverless cars cheaper in the long run?
Are the conversion costs that prohibitive?

I spent months in Vancouver recently and their Skytrain frequency was extrordinary. I never looked up a timetable ever.

Quote from: Habitant on November 09, 2024, 14:33:29 PMQuestion for those who have a better understanding of these things than I do:
With the addition of CRR, why have the train lines that will use it not been converted to Sydney style automated metro? Aren't these driverless cars cheaper in the long run?
Are the conversion costs that prohibitive?

I spent months in Vancouver recently and their Skytrain frequency was extrordinary. I never looked up a timetable ever.

Many reasons

1) requires the whole network to have ETCS signalling. Currently huge parts of the network use old school line side signalling where traffic lights tell the driver if it's safe to proceed to the next section of the track (ie a train isn't too close in front). These traffic lights are operated manually by an operator in the control centre. In order for driverless operation, you need to have ETCS signalling (ie automated signalling with movable blocks) on the whole network, which we currently don't have.

2) internationally it is standard that automated trains do not operate on lines that have level crossings. Brisbane's network has many, so they would need to be removed

3) automated train lines are usually fully sectorised, ie don't share tracks with other trains. Brisbane's network has sections that share tracks all the time, and even share with freight trains. This sort of mixed traffic operation doesn't work with automated trains.

4) again for safety, automated train lines usually have platform screen doors / gates and level boarding at all stations. We don't have that currently.

Tldr the whole network would need significant upgrades to the back end infrastructure and safety features to allow automated trains. It's not as simple as replacing the Rollingstock. To answer your question yes, the upgrades required to allow automated trains on the Brisbane network would be extremely expensive

Quote from: timh on November 09, 2024, 14:50:48 PM

Quote from: Habitant on November 09, 2024, 14:33:29 PMQuestion for those who have a better understanding of these things than I do:
With the addition of CRR, why have the train lines that will use it not been converted to Sydney style automated metro? Aren't these driverless cars cheaper in the long run?
Are the conversion costs that prohibitive?

I spent months in Vancouver recently and their Skytrain frequency was extrordinary. I never looked up a timetable ever.

Many reasons

1) requires the whole network to have ETCS signalling. Currently huge parts of the network use old school line side signalling where traffic lights tell the driver if it's safe to proceed to the next section of the track (ie a train isn't too close in front). These traffic lights are operated manually by an operator in the control centre. In order for driverless operation, you need to have ETCS signalling (ie automated signalling with movable blocks) on the whole network, which we currently don't have.

2) internationally it is standard that automated trains do not operate on lines that have level crossings. Brisbane's network has many, so they would need to be removed

3) automated train lines are usually fully sectorised, ie don't share tracks with other trains. Brisbane's network has sections that share tracks all the time, and even share with freight trains. This sort of mixed traffic operation doesn't work with automated trains.

4) again for safety, automated train lines usually have platform screen doors / gates and level boarding at all stations. We don't have that currently.

Tldr the whole network would need significant upgrades to the back end infrastructure and safety features to allow automated trains. It's not as simple as replacing the Rollingstock. To answer your question yes, the upgrades required to allow automated trains on the Brisbane network would be extremely expensive

You also need to factor in that the current system will also be used at the same time as ETCS in the core area as freight trains and rolling stock not fitted with ETCS will be in the same section. For full automation to work you need to have the rolling stock operating to very similar specs IE  length of trains power and breaking effert and performance so  no full ETCS will not be fully implemented for auto mode due to all of these different operations and operators on the .network

Quote from: Habitant on November 09, 2024, 14:33:29 PMQuestion for those who have a better understanding of these things than I do:
With the addition of CRR, why have the train lines that will use it not been converted to Sydney style automated metro? Aren't these driverless cars cheaper in the long run?
Are the conversion costs that prohibitive?

I spent months in Vancouver recently and their Skytrain frequency was extrordinary. I never looked up a timetable ever.

Simple answer, Qld is stuck in the 1970s unfortunately.

Quote from: HabitantQuestion for those who have a better understanding of these things than I do:
With the addition of CRR, why have the train lines that will use it not been converted to Sydney style automated metro? Aren't these driverless cars cheaper in the long run?
Are the conversion costs that prohibitive?

I spent months in Vancouver recently and their Skytrain frequency was extrordinary. I never looked up a timetable ever.

This is a great question Habitant.

Over time I think there will be a further differentiation between the train modes used based on distance. Victoria does this (Metro vs V/Line) and NSW (Sydney Trains vs NSW Trains/Sydney Metro).

In principle, it is possible to convert some parts of the QR network into a Brisbane Subway. This would resolve issues with vertical and horizontal train platform gaps, curved platforms, signalling and the ability to run trains at high frequency in both directions all day. It would also allow DOO.

Conversion costs would be expensive (new train station, new trains, new train depots, potentially a new underground tunnel), but these would also be one-off. Electrification costs would also be lower as we already have 25 kV AC and this means fewer substations are required than say somewhere like Melbourne or Sydney.

I don't think CRR will be suitable for conversion, but other parts of the network may be.

Did you have any particular lines in mind?  The below thread might be suitable for continuing this discussion.

Brisbane Virtual Metro: 10-minute all day train service
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15298.0

In principle you can do many things. That doesn't mean that you should. And DOO is an invalid argument that needs to be dropped especially when the major cost at the moment isn't actually the guard as members here constantly bring up.

Quote from: verbatim9 on November 09, 2024, 16:46:33 PM

Quote from: Habitant on November 09, 2024, 14:33:29 PMQuestion for those who have a better understanding of these things than I do:
With the addition of CRR, why have the train lines that will use it not been converted to Sydney style automated metro? Aren't these driverless cars cheaper in the long run?
Are the conversion costs that prohibitive?

I spent months in Vancouver recently and their Skytrain frequency was extrordinary. I never looked up a timetable ever.

Simple answer, Qld is stuck in the 1970s unfortunately.

Driver only operations would be the first step as a cost saving measure as well as a step towards increased frequency, which is more economical under such a model. Yet, automation is the ultimate goal for economical running of cummuter trains.

Urgh. Plenty of cost saving measures out there before you even get to DOO. At the moment DOO trains has actually dramatically increased operational costs on our network

DOO has no impact on frequency. Since 2016 the second and third NGR deliveries were not delivered and future CRR operations has prevented any and all short term service frequency increases on any existing lines. Redcliffe for example even has the frequency spots already in the timetable. There are no problems increasing the frequency now and we have the rollingstock to do so. But as I said now isn't the problem. Due to no new rollingstock coming online and rollingstock retirements, rollingstock refurbishments and rollingstock DAA modifications all happening in a timeframe around CRR operations that has prevented service frequency increases. Once CRR is operational and QTMP starts getting delivered that's when you can expect service increases to selected lines. Remember all the EMUs were supposed to have been scrapped by now but are still running around the network.

Also to go DOO to save a few bucks hundreds and hundreds of millions would need to be spent upgrading rollingstock, stations and trackside signalling. Otherwise you end up with the same problems we have now with high levels of PSAs required.

Oh and FYI Tokyo has ATS/ATC, 5 minute frequencies and guards on trains and yet members harp on about costs of a guard preventing frequency increase.

Quote from: verbatim9 on November 09, 2024, 16:46:33 PM

Quote from: Habitant on November 09, 2024, 14:33:29 PMQuestion for those who have a better understanding of these things than I do:
With the addition of CRR, why have the train lines that will use it not been converted to Sydney style automated metro? Aren't these driverless cars cheaper in the long run?
Are the conversion costs that prohibitive?

I spent months in Vancouver recently and their Skytrain frequency was extrordinary. I never looked up a timetable ever.

Simple answer, Qld is stuck in the 1970s unfortunately.

I think you meant simpleton answer. You really have no clue what you're on about, as HTG's answer demonstrates.

Quote from: Habitant on November 09, 2024, 14:33:29 PMQuestion for those who have a better understanding of these things than I do:
With the addition of CRR, why have the train lines that will use it not been converted to Sydney style automated metro? Aren't these driverless cars cheaper in the long run?
Are the conversion costs that prohibitive?

I spent months in Vancouver recently and their Skytrain frequency was extrordinary. I never looked up a timetable ever.

Quote from: #Metro on November 09, 2024, 18:42:32 PM

Quote from: HabitantQuestion for those who have a better understanding of these things than I do:
With the addition of CRR, why have the train lines that will use it not been converted to Sydney style automated metro? Aren't these driverless cars cheaper in the long run?
Are the conversion costs that prohibitive?

I spent months in Vancouver recently and their Skytrain frequency was extrordinary. I never looked up a timetable ever.

This is a great question Habitant.

Over time I think there will be a further differentiation between the train modes used based on distance. Victoria does this (Metro vs V/Line) and NSW (Sydney Trains vs NSW Trains/Sydney Metro).

In principle, it is possible to convert some parts of the QR network into a Brisbane Subway. This would resolve issues with vertical and horizontal train platform gaps, curved platforms, signalling and the ability to run trains at high frequency in both directions all day. It would also allow DOO.

Conversion costs would be expensive (new train station, new trains, new train depots, potentially a new underground tunnel), but these would also be one-off. Electrification costs would also be lower as we already have 25 kV AC and this means fewer substations are required than say somewhere like Melbourne or Sydney.

I don't think CRR will be suitable for conversion, but other parts of the network may be.

Did you have any particular lines in mind?  The below thread might be suitable for continuing this discussion.

Brisbane Virtual Metro: 10-minute all day train service
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15298.0

Although the Cross River Rail authority weren't awarded the  Gold Coast Faster Rail project, it would be good if they get the construction contract for at least the Sunshine Coast rail. It just makes sense to transfer that knowledge as well as the human resources straight onto that project. Same goes with the extension from Varsity lakes to Coolangatta. Allowing this to happen could get the line from Coolangatta to Birtinya done before the Olympics.

Additionally having it running as a Driver Only Model as well.

You really have no idea what the hell you are talking about and only make yourself seem silly.

Quote from: verbatim9 on November 10, 2024, 11:10:41 AM

Quote from: Habitant on November 09, 2024, 14:33:29 PMQuestion for those who have a better understanding of these things than I do:
With the addition of CRR, why have the train lines that will use it not been converted to Sydney style automated metro? Aren't these driverless cars cheaper in the long run?
Are the conversion costs that prohibitive?

I spent months in Vancouver recently and their Skytrain frequency was extrordinary. I never looked up a timetable ever.

Quote from: #Metro on November 09, 2024, 18:42:32 PM

Quote from: HabitantQuestion for those who have a better understanding of these things than I do:
With the addition of CRR, why have the train lines that will use it not been converted to Sydney style automated metro? Aren't these driverless cars cheaper in the long run?
Are the conversion costs that prohibitive?

I spent months in Vancouver recently and their Skytrain frequency was extrordinary. I never looked up a timetable ever.

This is a great question Habitant.

Over time I think there will be a further differentiation between the train modes used based on distance. Victoria does this (Metro vs V/Line) and NSW (Sydney Trains vs NSW Trains/Sydney Metro).

In principle, it is possible to convert some parts of the QR network into a Brisbane Subway. This would resolve issues with vertical and horizontal train platform gaps, curved platforms, signalling and the ability to run trains at high frequency in both directions all day. It would also allow DOO.

Conversion costs would be expensive (new train station, new trains, new train depots, potentially a new underground tunnel), but these would also be one-off. Electrification costs would also be lower as we already have 25 kV AC and this means fewer substations are required than say somewhere like Melbourne or Sydney.

I don't think CRR will be suitable for conversion, but other parts of the network may be.

Did you have any particular lines in mind?  The below thread might be suitable for continuing this discussion.

Brisbane Virtual Metro: 10-minute all day train service
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15298.0

Although the Cross River Rail authority weren't awarded the  Gold Coast Faster Rail project, it would be good if they get the construction contract for at least the Sunshine Coast rail. It just makes sense to transfer that knowledge as well as the human resources straight onto that project. Same goes with the extension from Varsity lakes to Coolangatta. Allowing this to happen could get the line from Coolangatta to Birtinya done before the Olympics.

Additionally having it running as a Driver Only Model as well.

Quote from: ozbob on June 08, 2024, 07:31:41 AMThe history of half baked roll out of ETCS L2 is no great surprise considering the long list of other half baked projects of recent times.

The original ETCS L2 roll out in 2016 ( https://www.statedevelopment.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0023/54509/ETCS-Inner-City-Cost-Benefit-Analysis-Summary_web.pdf ) was Northgate - Central - Milton. Shorncliffe line being the pilot line.



See Government Statement 21 June 2016

World-class signalling system on track to boost SEQ's train capacity
http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2016/6/21/worldclass-signalling-system-on-track-to-boost-seqs-train-capacity

Quote... "The new system will be installed from Northgate to Milton, upgrading 26 percent of the existing signalling assets in South East Queensland in one project," he said.

"This will allow more trains to pass through the bottleneck in the CBD, where every single train line on the City network merges into a single corridor and every service stops at Roma Street, Central, Bowen Hills and Fortitude Valley stations.

"ETCS is a critical project because our current rail system expected to reach crush-capacity by 2021 with rail demand expected to double by 2026, and triple by 2036.

"The new signalling system would be operational from 2021, helping to bridge the capacity gap on the rail network." ...

This project was under the management of Queensland Rail.  In July 2018 management of this project was transferred to CRRDA and TMR.  This was the beginning of the end for this project.

Between when the project was taken over by CRRDA in 2018 and around 2022 the inner city ETCS L2 plan was  quietly dropped.  The rollout at that time was to be Northgate <> Salisbury via CRR. I was also told in a meeting that the plan was to extend the ETCS L2 to Varsity Lakes, although this was not confirmed by other official sources.

Mr Bailey was no doubt aware of the scope changes with respect to the Inner City.

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableoffice/questionsanswers/2022/1062-2022.pdf

Quote... The Palaszczuk Government will deploy ETCS technology into the tunnel and south to Salisbury
first, so as to derive the greatest benefit from this investment to the broader network.  ...

About this time the plan was to fit the QR Fleet with ETCS L2 equipment but that has been shelved along with the Inner City rollout. The bean counters would make the argument that those trains will not be running in ETCS L2 territory so they don't need to be done now.

====

https://twitter.com/AnnastaciaMP/status/1407980722439090180

I'm assuming the Premier is referring to SMU260 and IMU260 sets, as together, they add up to 64 sets.

====

So, we now have a half baked rollout between Exhibition <> Moorooka via CRR.

It is just a fuking great big embarrassment these constant failures and lack of real vision.

 

You sure you want the CRRDA being responsible for the sunny coast rail projects?? I mean if you want to cancel or hide information from everyone the CRRDA is the way to go

Couriermail --> Qld LNP government targets CFMEU BPIC deal $

Quote... The LNP said declining productivity on Queensland construction sites led to billions in cost escalations and months-long delays.

Mr Crisafulli on Tuesday revealed Cross River Rail would cost Queensland taxpayers almost $7bn, with Labor quietly signing off on a $494m increase to the state's largest infrastructure project on the eve of the state election.

Mr Crisafulli and Transport Minister Brent Mickelberg revealed the figure after Deputy Opposition Leader Cameron Dick and transport spokesman Bart Mellish said on Monday the cost had only risen by $170m.

However, Mr Crisafulli said the $494m increase in the cost of the Cross River Rail project was in addition to the $170m released by Labor. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1856358310334869834

Gabba Roof being installed

https://flic.kr/p/2qufMox