RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Understand first mainline ETCS L2 test was done last evening between Shorncliffe and Sandgate with SMU 276.

ETCS update - just an update on the successful testing the other night.

A lot of discussion on other issues eg. covid etc.

Commences about 7 minutes 30 seconds in.

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1548121841788932096

Brisbanetimes --> As Brisbane slept, the future of state's train travel passed crucial tests

QuoteAs commuters slept one night last week, a coastal track in Brisbane's north-east played host to crucial testing of the future of Queensland's train travel.

A train equipped with new rail control technology – set to be part of Cross River Rail and then the broader Queensland Rail network – was successfully tested on the Shorncliffe line. ...

International Railway Journal --> $A 107m contract for equipping the state's NGR fleet with ATO over ETCS.

QuoteHITACHI Rail has won a $A 107m ($US 74.4m) contract to equip Queensland's New Generation Rail (NGR) fleet of 75 EMUs with ATO over ETCS Level 2.

The contract will be delivered over a four-year period across the six-car trains and will provide the ability to operate at GoA2. The first two trains are undergoing technical fit-out and testing. In addition to equipment installation, Hitachi has also been awarded a contract worth $A 65m for the maintenance of fleet through to 2046.

The NGR fleet was delivered from 2016 under a $A 4.4bn public-private partnership (PPP) by the Qtectic consortium made up of Bombardier, John Laing, Itochu and Aberdeen Standard Investments. The contract also included construction of a maintenance centre at Wulkurata in Ipswich and a 32-year maintenance contract.

As IRJ reported on July 18, Queensland has been testing ETCS on Brisbane's 11km Shorncliffe suburban line as a prelude to its installation on the under-construction Cross River Rail project ahead of a state-wide roll-out, which will boost capacity across the 1067mm-gauge network.

Following the completion of the Hitachi Rail contract to install ATO and ETCS in the NGR fleet, Queensland Rail will also benefit from the significant energy efficiencies associated with consistently running trains at an optimum speed, helping to reduce costs and electricity usage. ...

Couriermail --> From $634m to $1.3b: Massive blowouts put rail upgrades off track $

QuoteCost blowouts have plagued a new rail signalling system being built by the Palaszczuk government to allow trains to operate closer together with improved safety.

The Opposition has used figures which show the budget for implementation of the European Train Control System had increased from $634m in 2016-17 to more than $1.3bn.

The LNP argues the Palaszczuk government has attempted to hide the blowout by creating new projects outside the existing project – a claim the government denies. ...

LinkedIn

^^Slowly but surely

Rail Express---> New test milestone for Queensland ETCS

QuoteA train from the Queensland New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) fleet has completed its first low speed ETCS dynamic test on the Shorncliffe line: a significant milestone in preparing for travel through the Cross River Rail twin tunnels, where ETCS will also be installed as the signalling system.

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2023/1114-2023.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 1114
Asked on 14 September 2023

MR S MINNIKIN ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS AND MINISTER FOR DIGITIAL SERVICES (HON M BAILEY)

QUESTION:

Will the Minister advise, for each train in the Queensland Rail fleet, the date that it is programmed
to have all necessary European Train Control System (ETCS) equipment installed and
operational?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Chatsworth for the question.

Each of the three car City Train sets in the Queensland Rail fleet which will have ETCS equipment
installed and operational for testing and commissioning purposes will be equipped and
operational before the end of 2023.

Does that mean ETCS is being installed in EMUs? Surely not!

Quote from: achiruel on October 21, 2023, 11:52:43 AMDoes that mean ETCS is being installed in EMUs? Surely not!

Good point. I hope so 

(seriously I probably think not ...)

No to EMUs. I believe the answer he gave was rather two faced, pretty sure he is talking about only the QR units being fitted for testing and initial commissioning.

Correct. Only the NGR will have full fleet fitout for ETCS. Everything else remain as is. Only a handful of 260's will have it installed for testing on the Shorncliffe and Gympie lines. As far as I am aware the 260's potentially will never even get to go inside CRR tunnels even as test units as NGR ETCS test units will do that role.

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2023/1359-2023.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 1359
Asked on 26 October 2023

MR S MINNIKIN ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS AND MINISTER
FOR DIGITAL SERVICES (HON M BAILEY)

QUESTION:

With reference to the Minister's previous advice that 'Each of the three car City Train sets in the
Queensland Rail fleet which will have ETCS equipment installed and operational for testing and
commissioning purposes will be equipped and operational before the end of 2023'—
Will the Minister provide the fleet ID number and model of each three car set that (a) will have
ETCS equipment installed and (b) which will not?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Chatsworth for the question.

(a) The European Train Control System (ETCS) onboard equipment has completed design,
fitment, and initial testing on three Queensland Rail SMU260 fleet (IDs 261, 264 and 276).
These trains are currently being used for various ETCS testing activities on the Shorncliffe
line ahead of the Cross River Rail commissioning phase.

(b) Fleet IDs 161–188 from the IMU160 class, and fleet IDs 262, 263, 265–275 and 277–296
from the SMU260 class will not have ETSC installed.

Queensland Parliament Questions on Notice

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2024/121-2024.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 121
Asked on 5 March 2024

MR S MINNIKIN ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS AND MINISTER
FOR DIGITAL SERVICES (HON B MELLISH)

QUESTION:

Will the Minister advise the total cost to the taxpayer for the European Train Control System
(ETCS)?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Chatsworth for the question.

The European Train Control System (ETCS) is a vital program of works to modernise
Queensland's rail network. Investment in this system will be ongoing to meet population growth,
now and into the future. The program includes various stages of work to roll ETCS out across the
South East Queensland rail network over the next decade.

ETCS will increase network capacity across South-East Queensland by up to 20 per cent,
allowing more frequent and efficient services whilst maintaining safe distances between trains on
the network.

ETCS is the world standard for monitoring and safely managing trains. The system will constantly
monitor, evaluate and help regulate the speed of trains on the SEQ Network.

ETCS provides a multitude of benefits including increased safety, reliability and reduced network
disruptions associated with maintenance of conventional signalling equipment. ETCS represents
significant value for money compared to both the conventional signalling system it replaces and
the costs associated with the major infrastructure works that would otherwise be necessary to
achieve similar increases in network capacity.

As per the 2023-24 Queensland Budget, the current published budget for ETCS is $764.3 million
(Excluding GST). Queensland Rail: Queensland Budget 2023-24 Capital Statement Budget
Paper No. 3 Page 105 and Cross River Rail Delivery Authority Queensland Budget 2023-24
Capital Statement Budget Paper No. 3 Page 108.

As announced in SEQ Rail Connect, released in August 2022, the Queensland Government will
continue the full rollout of ETCS across the entire South East Queensland rail network. Therefore
the total cost for the rollout of the ETCS program is not yet known.

I have undertaken to provide updates on project costs twice per year, at the June Queensland
Budget and at the Mid-Year Update

^

" ... As announced in SEQ Rail Connect, released in August 2022, the Queensland Government will
continue the full rollout of ETCS across the entire South East Queensland rail network. ... "

    

Quote from: ozbob on April 05, 2024, 14:53:13 PM^

" ... As announced in SEQ Rail Connect, released in August 2022, the Queensland Government will
continue the full rollout of ETCS across the entire South East Queensland rail network. ... "

    

That is excellent news. Now, can we get the LNP to commit to the same?

Quote from: ozbob on April 05, 2024, 14:53:13 PM^

" ... As announced in SEQ Rail Connect, released in August 2022, the Queensland Government will
continue the full rollout of ETCS across the entire South East Queensland rail network. ... "

    

Meh. Level 1 has always been planned. The problem with it is that it's never been timescaled. Remember ATP plans of the early 90's Sector 1 will be the third install. Sector 2 will be fourth and sector 3 will be the last to have it. Caboolture-Gympie being the first and Shorncliffe-Northgate/CRR being level 2.

Sector one will get it sooner as it has the QTMP MTCE facility, crr services etc, sector two will get it mid term as it has the NGR MTCE facility and sector 3 it's not a priority as NGR/QTMP will unlikely ever be using it in the short term.

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2024/331-2024.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 331
Asked on 21 March 2024

MR R STEVENS ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS AND MINISTER
FOR DIGITAL SERVICES (HON B MELLISH)

QUESTION:

Will the Minister advise (a) what sections of the Queensland Rail Citytrain network will utilise the
European Train Control System on completion of the project and (b) when the system is expected
to be operational on these sections?

ANSWER:
I thank the Member for Mermaid Beach for the question.

(a) The European Train Control System (ETCS) is a vital program of works to modernise
Queensland's rail network. Investment in this system will be ongoing to meet population
growth, now and into the future. The program includes various stages of work to roll ETCS
out across the South East Queensland (SEQ) rail network over the next decade.

(b) ETCS is already being tested on the Shorncliffe Line and will also go live on Cross River
Rail when the tunnel opens in 2026. ETCS will progressively activate as it is installed across
the SEQ network over the coming decade.

ETCS will increase network capacity across SEQ by up to 20 per cent, allowing more frequent
and efficient services while maintaining safe distances between trains on the network. ETCS is
the world standard for monitoring and safely managing trains. The system will constantly monitor,
evaluate and help regulate the speed of trains on the SEQ network.

ETCS provides a multitude of benefits including increased safety, reliability and reduced network
disruptions associated with maintenance of conventional signalling equipment. ETCS represents
significant value for money, compared to both the conventional signalling system it replaces and
the costs associated with the major infrastructure works that would otherwise be necessary to
achieve similar increases in network capacity.

For interest ...

https://x.com/steve220459/status/1793716724090515793

Funding has been allocated in the budget for ETCS to be extended down the Beenleigh Line to Moorooka. The plan now is to roll it out across the entire network.

" An extra $554 million in next week's state budget will allow a new train navigation system to be extended in the Brisbane rail network.

The European Train Control System is fundamental to the $6.3 billion Cross River Rail project and is also being tested on the Shorncliffe line where it has operated alongside older technology.

The ETCS will now be extended to the Beenleigh line, from the CBD to the upgraded Moorooka station, and eventually cover the entire south-east Queensland network."

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/extra-554-million-in-the-budget-to-help-brisbane-trains-run-on-time-20240606-p5jjv2.html

ETCS L2 rollout was always Northgate to Salisbury (via CRR), and Northgate to Milton (via Central). 

This is just cost escalation dressed up as a porky pie!

This was when the Inner City ETCS was finished.

Quote from: ozbob on December 24, 2018, 11:44:48 AMHave finally received a response from Community Engagement at Queensland Rail.

" Procurement and delivery of the European Train Control System (ETCS) program transitioned to the Cross River Rail Delivery Authority (CRRDA) in July 2018.

This transition was undertaken because of the significant interdependencies between these critical infrastructure projects. As identified on our website, shortlisted proponents have submitted offers for ETCS design and delivery and evaluation of these offers is currently underway (https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/inthecommunity/projects/current-projects/cross-river-rail).  If you have further queries about project milestones, you can also contact the CRRDA on 1800 010 875 or info@crossriverrail.qld.gov.au. "

 

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableoffice/questionsanswers/2022/1062-2022.pdf

Quote... The Palaszczuk Government will deploy ETCS technology into the tunnel and south to Salisbury
first, so as to derive the greatest benefit from this investment to the broader network.  ...

Government Statement

https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/100514

State of the art train signalling system set to expand under State Budget

7th June 2024

Minister for Transport and Main Roads and Minister for Digital Services
The Honourable Bart Mellish

. State Government set to expand the rollout of the European Train Control System to more of the South East Queensland rail network

. Extra funding set aside in the upcoming State Budget

. The signalling system is widely used around the world, and will enable more train services to run closer together

. This rolling program of works is a key part of modernising South East Queensland's rail system and is critical for the future of the inner city network, including Cross River Rail

. ETCS will be a vital part of the rail network, including Sunshine Coast Direct when it comes online, supporting the region's rapid population growth by allowing more services to run more often

Transport Minister Bart Mellish has today announced a major expansion of the world-class signalling system that is currently being installed on South East Queensland's rail network.

As part of the rolling program, additional funding has been earmarked in the upcoming budget to extend the European Train Control System (ETCS) south to Moorooka.

ETCS will also be fundamental in the planned expansion of rail services direct to the Sunshine Coast.

The system will revolutionise rail travel for the South East, by digitising components of the rail network and trains, helping deliver more frequent and reliable train services. ETCS does this by constantly relaying the speed and position of trains on the network back to the control centre.

The system then calculates the optimum speed each train can travel at, increasing the number of trains that can run closer together, more often.

While existing rail signalling in South East Queensland is safe, it is older technology and is reaching its capacity.

Additional funding in the Budget will also enhance cyber security, operational readiness and testing to increase the resilience of the system against unauthorised third-party access. 

The ETCS program will be rolled out across the SEQ network over the next decade, increasing capacity, safety and reliability.

ETCS will also help reduce train service disruptions by replacing ageing and obsolete rail assets. For example, if there is a breakdown, ETCS will automatically help calculate the best alternative route for trains, eliminating or severely reducing delays.

Modern ETCS technology already operates in cities around the world meaning it is a tried-and-true signalling technology that meets the highest standards of safety.

The ETCS is also continually reviewed to ensure it has the best cybersecurity possible.

The technology will put the rail network on par with the most modern and advanced train systems globally and enable the State Government to achieve the outcomes set out in its SEQ Rail Connect plan.

The first tranche of funding was announced in 2016.

As part of ongoing investments to modernise and improve reliability across the Queensland Rail network, the government will continue to expand the ETCS program as required to deliver a world class rail network for the South East.

Additional funding of $554 million toward ETCS will enable:

. Completing installation of ETCS equipment further south from the Cross River Rail tunnel to Moorooka.
. Enhanced cyber security, operational readiness and testing to increase the resilience of the system against unauthorised third-party access. 
. Supporting the successful integration of Cross River Rail with the rail corridor and general rail traffic
. Replacing ageing and obsolete rail assets to help ensure ETCS operates effectively alongside conventional signalling.
. Investigating the preferred deployment strategy for ETCS beyond the Cross River Rail project.
. Continuing to source key signalling materials, while managing the impacts of global supply chain factors.

This takes the governments investment in ETCS to a total of $1.318.3 billion over the next four years.

This new investment will build on the work already completed toward the delivery of the ETCS, which is currently being tested and installed on the Shorncliffe line.

Quotes attributable to Minister for Transport and Main Roads, Bart Mellish:

"The rail revolution is happening in South East Queensland and the ETCS is a cornerstone of the future train network.

"Introducing world-class digital signalling will make the whole rail network more efficient and more reliable for Queenslanders while achieving the highest safety standards.

"Just like air traffic controllers use hi-tech systems to keep planes moving in and out of airports safely and efficiently, ETCS tells trains whether they need to speed up or slow down to move between stations as efficiently as possible without compromising safety.

"As part of our commitment to safety, our on-going investment in ETCS will also help ensure the cyber security of the rail network as well.

"The threat of virtual attacks has increased in recent years and we are responding with a dedicated investment to help safeguard the rail system.

"Like infrastructure projects right across the country, ETCS has not been immune to external pressures such as supply chain constraints, particularly given the specialised parts needed for hi-tech signalling.

"The additional funding and expanded scope that comes with it will ensure the work continues to make our rail network here in South East Queensland right up there with the best in the world.

"The upgrade program to the ETCS system is a giant leap forward for rail technology in Queensland and ultimately delivers a better, safer and more reliable transport experience for commuters."

Fast facts - What is ETCS?

. ETCS is an advanced digital signalling system that relays information between trains and central Rail Management Centre via a radio system, trackside technology and onboard equipment.

. The technology calculates safe braking distance, alerts the driver if the train is travelling too fast and automatically applies brakes if the train doesn't reduce speed.

. It is being introduced to the SEQ rail network as part of the Cross River Rail project by the Sequence Signalling & Systems Alliance, which consists of Hitachi Rail, Queensland Rail and Cross River Rail Delivery Authority.

. ETCS hardware will operate on both the New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) trains and the future Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP) fleet. ETCS equipment is also being fitted trackside and in the Rail Management Centre.

. ETCS will improve the daily train commute for Queenslanders by calculating the safe, maximum running speeds so each train can move through the network efficiently.

.ETCS will provide a more accurate position of each train on the network, including in Cross River Rail's tunnels. This will enable the NGRs and the future QTMP trains to be scheduled to travel closer to each other while maintaining the highest standards of safety.

. Safety will be further enhanced with the delivery of the Automatic Train Protection (ATP) system onboard the NGR fleet and QTMP fleet. ATP is a digital system that will complement ETCS by alerting the driver if the train is travelling too fast and automatically applies brakes if the train doesn't reduce speed.

ENDS

So appears all that the ETCS L2 will cover for now is Northgate <> Moorooka via CRR tunnels.

Shorncliffe line being the pilot line.

So the Inner City roll out of ETCS L2 seems not proceeding, and the project is now cut back to Moorooka.

Something I'm not entirely clear on - is the equipment on the Shorncliffe line to basically be mothballed in situ once testing is complete, or will it be operational and in use whenever an NGR or QTMP train equipped to use it happens to be on the line? 

Given the Traveltrain yard at Banyo I expect conventional signalling may still be in place to some extent even if all other lineside signalling is removed in the future, once the whole SEQ fleet and any other incidental visiting trains (MTCE, steam specials etc) are equipped?

By what i'm hearing, current plans have ETCS L2 starting at Exhibition, not Northgate, and the future of the Shorncliffe ETCS equipment after testing is complete is still up in the air.

^ thanks.  I hope to get some definite answers on the actual scope of the ETCS L2 next week.

Shaping up as another half baked effort sadly ...

What was once ETCS L2 from Northgate to Milton via Central, Northgate to Varsity Lakes via CRR, is now Exhibition to Moorooka via CRR!      



====

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/qld-politics/state-gov-data-reveals-new-cost-blowouts-totalling-more-than-12bn-have-been-identified/news-story/ef0d36ea826c9942fc04ab69e505e5b6

Quote... Meanwhile, the state government has also confirmed it will spend an extra $500m to expand a new train signalling system — though it confirmed the technology won't go as far south on the line as initially envisioned.

Mr Mellish also steadfastly denied the expansion of the European Train Control System out to Moorooka would cause delays opening Cross River Rail.

Queensland's total spend on the ETCS will now stand at $1.32bn over the next four years.

The $500m expansion will extend the ETCS to Moorooka and put in place critical cybersecurity defences on the system.

But the state government had initially intended to take the ETCS as far out as Salisbury, with former Transport Minister Mark Bailey stating in 2022 this would "derive the greatest benefit from this investment to the broader network".

It's understood the expansion out to Salisbury was not funded under earlier packages to install the system, and investigations since that time have led to the government picking Moorooka as the "preferred location". ...

The history of half baked roll out of ETCS L2 is no great surprise considering the long list of other half baked projects of recent times.

The original ETCS L2 roll out in 2016 ( https://www.statedevelopment.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0023/54509/ETCS-Inner-City-Cost-Benefit-Analysis-Summary_web.pdf ) was Northgate - Central - Milton. Shorncliffe line being the pilot line.



See Government Statement 21 June 2016

World-class signalling system on track to boost SEQ's train capacity
http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2016/6/21/worldclass-signalling-system-on-track-to-boost-seqs-train-capacity

Quote... "The new system will be installed from Northgate to Milton, upgrading 26 percent of the existing signalling assets in South East Queensland in one project," he said.

"This will allow more trains to pass through the bottleneck in the CBD, where every single train line on the City network merges into a single corridor and every service stops at Roma Street, Central, Bowen Hills and Fortitude Valley stations.

"ETCS is a critical project because our current rail system expected to reach crush-capacity by 2021 with rail demand expected to double by 2026, and triple by 2036.

"The new signalling system would be operational from 2021, helping to bridge the capacity gap on the rail network." ...

This project was under the management of Queensland Rail.  In July 2018 management of this project was transferred to CRRDA and TMR.  This was the beginning of the end for this project.

Between when the project was taken over by CRRDA in 2018 and around 2022 the inner city ETCS L2 plan was  quietly dropped.  The rollout at that time was to be Northgate <> Salisbury via CRR. I was also told in a meeting that the plan was to extend the ETCS L2 to Varsity Lakes, although this was not confirmed by other official sources.

Mr Bailey was no doubt aware of the scope changes with respect to the Inner City.

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableoffice/questionsanswers/2022/1062-2022.pdf

Quote... The Palaszczuk Government will deploy ETCS technology into the tunnel and south to Salisbury
first, so as to derive the greatest benefit from this investment to the broader network.  ...

About this time the plan was to fit the QR Fleet with ETCS L2 equipment but that has been shelved along with the Inner City rollout. The bean counters would make the argument that those trains will not be running in ETCS L2 territory so they don't need to be done now.

====

https://twitter.com/AnnastaciaMP/status/1407980722439090180

I'm assuming the Premier is referring to SMU260 and IMU260 sets, as together, they add up to 64 sets.

====

So, we now have a half baked rollout between Exhibition <> Moorooka via CRR.

It is just a fuking great big embarrassment these constant failures and lack of real vision.

 

https://x.com/steve220459/status/1798792902241403053

Quote from: ozbob on June 08, 2024, 08:30:06 AMhttps://x.com/steve220459/status/1798792902241403053

I know some of the Japanese steam locomotives I've been on are equipped with ATP and have been for a long time - in particular I recall seeing such a retrofit on C57 180, which operates the SL Ban'Etsu Monogatari service (Niigata - Aizu-Wakamatsu), and that was back in 2013.

QuoteWe already know that ETCS2 is incorporated into this project but they should go a step further and include outdoor platform screens doors at these stations or the provisions for these stations to be quickly retrofitted for automation. In the mean time / near term Driver Only Operations would be a step forward to ensure economical and efficient operations, hopefully by 2028.

As with ETCS2, provisions should be made to  build outdoor platform screen doors now or at least allow for quick retrofits in the future for automation on the Sunshine Coast line down to Coolangatta. In the mean time Driver Only Operations would be the best way forward. Although they should include outdoor platform screen doors for this operational model as well.

 

Yes let's install screen doors on low height platforms and DOO works on the majority of track that doesn't actually have ETCS.

 

Quote from: ozbob on June 07, 2024, 08:47:24 AMSo appears all that the ETCS L2 will cover for now is Northgate <> Moorooka via CRR tunnels.

Shorncliffe line being the pilot line.

So the Inner City roll out of ETCS L2 seems not proceeding, and the project is now cut back to Moorooka.