RAIL - Back On Track Forum

https://x.com/CampbellNewman/status/1846015578697601305

"Never thought I'd see the day that @TimNichollsMP, a relentless advocate of privatisation and the free market, would openly oppose an exciting Public Private Partnership to build a world class stadium at Hamilton North Shore.

If we want to deliver the Olympics properly we need to have a bigger vision than what timid
@LNPQLD are putting forward.  The Hamilton North Shore proposal deserves better than its dismissal by a two decade MP who is far too comfortable in his seat.

If they decide to spend taxpayer funds on a rebuild of the Gabba or to destroy Victoria Park you can be sure that  @LibertariansQLD will be vocal against such waste."

====

 

Couriermail --> LNP's Brisbane 2032 Games plan still 100 days away $

QuoteIt would be longer than 100 days before Queenslanders know an LNP government's plan for Brisbane's Olympic and Paralympic Games, with a promised review unable to start until staff are appointed to an independent infrastructure authority.

But David Crisafulli has vowed to release the findings of his government's 100-day review in full once completed. ...

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/state-election/david-crisafulli-the-new-premier-of-queensland-after-lnp-election-victory/news-story/6d22737703781d947b3b8527d3197c8c

Quote... Within hours he had sacked the state's top bureaucrat Mike Kaiser and talked on the phone with Prime Minister Anthony Albanese.

Mr Crisafulli said he had spoken on the phone with Mr Albanese for 20 minutes, discussing increased spending for the Bruce Highway and the Olympic Games.

He said Labor's plan to use QSAC as Brisbane's Olympic and Paralympic Games' athletics venue was dead.

Mr Crisafulli said the state would be "proud" of his 100-day plan to get the Games back on track, but was still refusing to say where athletics should be held.

"Within 100 days Queenslanders will see a plan that they are proud of, and in doing so, we can restore faith in that process," he said. ...

'Gabba is looking like coming back into contention ...

as it should be that is where the new CRR station is and BERT.

Couriermail --> Albo on board as Crisafulli drops massive Olympic stadium hint $

QuotePremier-elect David Crisafulli used his first conversation with Prime Minister Anthony Albanese to discuss the delivery of Brisbane's Olympic and Paralympic Games.

But Queenslanders won't have any answers on the LNP's vision for the Games until at least March – more than 1250 days after Brisbane was awarded the event.

He has given his team one month to appoint a new independent Infrastructure Co-ordination Authority tasked with mapping out infrastructure and transport needs for the Games.

The authority will then have 100 days to provide a report to government outlining which infrastructure projects, including the main stadium, will be given the green light for 2032, and what money will be allocated to each. ...

... On top of scrapping QSAC, Mr Crisafulli has promised no new stadiums would be built, indicating a return to Ms Palaszczuk's Gabba rebuild. ...

News.com.au --> Queensland Premier-elect David Crisafulli flags scrapping QSAC for Olympics

Brisbanetimes --> Gabba opponents prepare for round two in fight against rebuild $

QuoteOpponents of the Gabba's Olympic rebuild are preparing for another fight after the election of the Crisafulli government put the project firmly back on the table.

Former premier Annastacia Palaszczuk announced a $1 billion rebuild in 2022, but the price tag ballooned to $2.7 billion. That led successor Steven Miles to scrap the project in favour of hosting track and field events at the Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre, about 10 kilometres south of the CBD.

On the Sky News election night panel on Saturday, Palaszczuk said the Gabba made "perfect sense" as Brisbane's Olympic stadium and QSAC would be "going backwards". ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1850930518394827262

 

Couriermail --> Editorial: Experts must make the call on stadium $

QuoteTo say those advocating for a new stadium for Brisbane are suddenly optimistic is an understatement.

The election of LNP Premier David Crisafulli has marked the consignment to history of one of the worst ideas in Queensland's history – to set fire to $1.6bn on a temporary upgrade of the old QEII Stadium to host athletics at the Brisbane 2032 Olympics and Paralympic Games.

The Courier-Mail took a strong position against that brain-fart from former premier Steven Miles for a very simple reason: it promised not one iota of legacy – even, ironically, for the sport of athletics. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1851283138804347172

Brisbanetimes --> Lord Mayor says Victoria Park must be considered in Olympic venue review $

QuoteThe new independent Olympic infrastructure review must consider Victoria Park, the lord mayor said as Queensland's new premier confirmed the Brisbane 2032 stadium debate would be finally put to rest in about four months' time.

Premier David Crisafulli said the clock would start ticking on his promised 100-day review sometime next month, when the board of the independent Olympic infrastructure delivery authority was constituted.

"That's a lot of work to do in a short period of time, but it's important that we put a road map forward, and within that 100 days, you're going to get something that Queenslanders are proud of," he said.

That review should consider all options, including Victoria Park, Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner told the regular Brisbane City Council meeting on Tuesday. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1851286179750285506

I reckon Victoria Park was always the LNP plan but they didn't want to say it out loud before the election.

The only thing that makes me question it is that Schrinner didn't seem too keen, as did five former Lord Mayors including Campbell Newman!

Campbell Newman is no longer LNP and often criticises the current LNP. I think Schrinner will come around when a shiny new stadium that he can share credit for is built.

Schrinner is one of the vice-presidents of the Brisbane 2032 Organising Committee.

So now he has to tow the line, because he's predecessor is the same person who recommended Victoria Park in that review.

Brisbanetimes --> Greens councillor claims LNP 'cabal' plotting to build Victoria Park stadium $

QuoteA Greens councillor has sensationally accused an LNP "cabal" of conspiring to build a stadium at Victoria Park, after Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner insisted this week it must form part of the Crisafulli government's 100-day Olympic venue review.

Paddington councillor Seal Chong Wah, who won the ward from the LNP at the March council election, said the wheels were set in motion when former LNP lord mayor Graham Quirk delivered his review of Olympic venues in March.

Chong Wah said the Schrinner administration could not, on one hand, promote the transformation of  Victoria Park to Brisbane's "Central Park" while also saying it was a "compelling" site for a new oval stadium.

"Those two things are completely incompatible," she said. ...

Quote from: Brisbanetimes"Those two things are completely incompatible," she said.

Well, there are examples where the two co-exist. There's Lakeside Stadium in Melbourne. Perhaps members can find others. While it's not at Olympics size or capacity, it does not seem to be an incompatible use.

Lakeside Stadium, Albert Park, Melbourne
https://statesportcentres.com.au/venues/lakeside/

QuoteLakeside Stadium is located in the northern end of the iconic Albert Park Lake and play host to a variety of sporting events, social functions and other events that take advantage of the picturesque setting. Along with its international standard athletic facilities and FIFA sized soccer pitch, there are many functions rooms available to hire to suit your events needs.

One benefit of a Victoria Park stadium (or perhaps a Meanjin Stadium if you wanted to name it that) is the possibility of a Spring Hill train station being inserted into CRR at the approximate location of the Normanby Train Car Wash facility. This would give Spring Hill excellent PT access, which is otherwise difficult to service with PT due to the street layout.



Adelaide Oval



Adelaide Oval is proudly managed by the Adelaide Oval Stadium Management Authority (AOSMA).

QuoteAOSMA is a joint venture company of the two entities that grow and develop cricket and football in South Australia – the South Australian Cricket Association and the South Australian National Football League.

Adelaide Oval itself is owned by the people of South Australia. We operate the venue on an 80-year lease from the Government of South Australia and are responsible for running, maintaining and developing Adelaide Oval along with our obligations to pay annual rent and sinking fund contributions.

Adelaide Oval
https://www.adelaideoval.com.au/about-us/

Commbank Stadium Parramatta



https://commbankstadium.com.au/

QuoteCommBank Stadium is a 30,000 seat stadium in Parramatta designed to give the best experience for the fans. Its award-winning state of the art design brings you closer to the action than ever before, offering an extensive range of premium venues to enhance match day experiences and hosting functions & events.

I think you've acknowledged one of the differences right there Metro but there's significant size differences.
The lakeside park you've shown appears 2 to 3 times the size. An Olympic stadium would take around double the space of the one you've shown. And that's not including the large areas of extra concreting around all large modern stadiums which doubles the footprint.

I've said it before but I don't believe vic park stadium will happen. Wealthy centrist voters revolt over issues like this and the liberals would be handing the Greens a perfect chance to reelect the federal MPs.

I think we're much more likely to return to the Gabba plan. The protests will return but the liberals won't have to fight their own voters or risk their own seats.

Thanks for your comments AJ Transport.

The prior post is purely exploratory. I note the Adelaide Oval capacity is 53,500, which is close to what a rebuilt Gabba Stadium would be expected to hold for the Olympics (currently 42,000).

It would be good to resolve this stadium issue soon, the sooner a venue is locked in the sooner the discussion can move to transport and planning that to the final chosen venue.

SCG and Allianz stadium are both in Moore Park, thats probably the most prominent example.


Even the MCG/AAMI/Rod Laver is in the middle of a broader parklands system.

SCG and Allianz Stadium

Nice pick up, Gazza. And its probably the most relevant example to the Victoria Park case as well. 

New Ministerial Appointment:

Tim Mander - Minister for Sport and Racing and Minister for the Olympic and Paralympic Games

Quote from: AJ Transport on November 01, 2024, 12:26:27 PMAn Olympic stadium would take around double the space of the one you've shown. And that's not including the large areas of extra concreting around all large modern stadiums which doubles the footprint.

I've said it before but I don't believe vic park stadium will happen. Wealthy centrist voters revolt over issues like this and the liberals would be handing the Greens a perfect chance to reelect the federal MPs.

I think we're much more likely to return to the Gabba plan. The protests will return but the liberals won't have to fight their own voters or risk their own seats.

While I think that your read of the politics is spot on, I think it would be ironic to return to the Gabba because a stadium is "too big" to fit into Victoria Park.  The reality of the Gabba site is that there is barely 20m from the gutter on Vulture Street to the sideline of the field.  That leaves barely any space for a grandstand.

The existing stadium at the Gabba deals with this by stacking the seating tiers on top of each other.  Typical stadiums don't do this.  In a typical stadium, each tier of seating is positioned above and behind the next tier down. Typical stadiums are arranged like so:


The Gabba is much more like an old fashioned ball-park.  Like so:


The thing to notice here is how much space there is in the undercroft of a typical modern stadium, and how little undercroft there is in a "ball park" style stadium such as the Gabba.  In fact, the Gabba itself has even less space because the lowest seating tier is actually dug into the hill on the Vulture Street side.

The reality is that events such as the Olympics require the back of house space that you find in the undercroft of a typical modern stadium.  This is missing in the Gabba as it stands.  Even the space to construct an undercroft is missing from the Gabba.  The only solution is either to excavate an enormous cavern underneath the playing field, or else build a humungous platform up in the air with the whole stadium perched atop.  That's why the plan went from a $1b thought bubble to a $3b, 5 year project when the architects finally got a look at it.

Quote from: #Metro on November 01, 2024, 12:00:53 PMOne benefit of a Victoria Park stadium (or perhaps a Meanjin Stadium if you wanted to name it that) is the possibility of a Spring Hill train station being inserted into CRR at the approximate location of the Normanby Train Car Wash facility. This would give Spring Hill excellent PT access, which is otherwise difficult to service with PT due to the street layout.

Stadium or no, I think there should be a station here.  The distance between Roma St and Exhibition is one of the longest on the entire Beenleigh line, and it's not like the area is short of schools and universities that could benefit from improved public transport links.

My money is on Vic Park or possibly Hamilton Northshore given that they have the seat of Clayfield. The Gabba is costly, and given how much the LNP is focusing on cost atm, I doubt they would take that risk politically.

Quote from: #Metro on November 01, 2024, 12:36:19 PMThe prior post is purely exploratory. I note the Adelaide Oval capacity is 53,500, which is close to what a rebuilt Gabba Stadium would be expected to hold for the Olympics (currently 42,000).

Enjoyed your posts on this.

To be brutally honest, I think Victoria Park is criminally underused. I quite often walk the old golf course on a Saturday afternoon and you'd be struggling to walk past 20 people. And that's not counting the section south of the ICB. Done right, Vic Park could be amazing and actually give Brisbane some green space that would actually stand a chance of being used. The LNP would spruik the "activation" of Victoria Park and I would agree with them (first time for everything I guess).

I don't they'll fear the backlash of the NIMBY's as much as it would take Pisasale levels of f-uppery for Schrinner and whoever succeeds him to be turfed out and the LNP have just won the election without taking Grace Grace's seat. If they deliver a stadium at a reasonable cost (probably involving private money) the public won't crack the sads too much. I can't see the Gabba being an option still - the site constraints mean costs there are always going to be inflated as opposed to green/brown-field sites.

BTW and not that it really matters, but the Gabba hasn't been 42K capacity for a long while (and probably wasn't even then). 37K is closer the the mark.

Couriermail --> Time is running out for Brisbane 2032 planning $

QuoteWhile the dust settles after the Queensland election, it continues to swirl like a tornado around the Brisbane 2032 Olympics.

After years of bickering and flip-flopping involving Queensland's political parties, incoming Premier David Crisafulli now has a gold medal opportunity to get The Greatest Show on Earth back on track. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1852814695721586695

Sunday Mail 3rd November 2024 page 21 

TOOMBUL RINGED IN
BRENDAN O'MALLEY

QuoteDeveloper Mirvac has failed to rule out speculation it's been approached to build an Olympic stadium at its abandoned Toombul shopping centre site in Brisbane, which has been completely cleared ahead of a major redevelopment.

Mirvac previously said the project would be mixed-use and would include public green space, a bus interchange and office, residential and retail offerings, but when asked about the possibility a stadium would form part of the rebuild a spokeswoman would rule nothing out.

"We are continuing to work on our plans for Toombul, as well as having productive discussions with state and local government on the future options for the site," a Mirvac spokeswoman said. ...

Even though Toombul doesn't seem as grand in terms of locations, I could see the merit in placing a stadium there due to proximity to so many transport options. My only potential issue with Toombul is flooding issues. Would that be something that could be easily overcome?

The nearby dining and entertainment options are...underwhelming!

Quote from: Jonno on November 03, 2024, 17:27:18 PMThe nearby dining and entertainment options are...underwhelming!

Ha - fair point. I've been living in New Zealand for coming up on 18 years so it's been a while since I've really visited that area!

I do think it's good that QSAC is likely to be scrapped now, that was a stupid option. However no matter which other option is considered now (Gabba, Victoria Park or Hamilton Northshore) there are going to be naysayers and NIMBY whiners, so the government is going to have to just bite the bullet and make a decision. While I'm not confident of this, I do hope that they can put politics aside and make a decision based on what's best for the city and ongoing legacy. While there are definitely pros and cons to each location, the more I think about it, I do think that the best option of those three at the moment is Victoria Park.

Why a Northshore Olympic Stadium Trumps Victoria Park & Gabba Rebuild

https://brisbanedevelopment-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/brisbanedevelopment.com/why-a-northshore-olympic-stadium-trumps-victoria-park-gabba-rebuild/?amp=1

. Cost-Efficiency: Northshore Hamilton avoids costly relocations for the Lions and Queensland Cricket, using state-owned land with minimal disruption.

. Iconic Riverfront Location: Supported by the Brisbane Design Alliance, Northshore's waterfront setting would create a globally recognisable Olympic precinct that showcases Brisbane.

. Enhanced Transit Infrastructure: Extending the Doomben rail line would improve connectivity, benefiting Olympic visitors and future residents in Brisbane's northern suburbs.

. Long-Term Legacy: The Northshore Vision 2050 promises a sustainable, self-sufficient community with commercial, residential, and public spaces that thrive post-Games.

. Preservation of Green Spaces: By selecting Northshore Hamilton, Brisbane can transform underused industrial land without encroaching on cherished parks like Victoria Park.

With Queensland's incoming LNP government now officially sworn in and undertaking a 100-day review of Brisbane's Olympic stadium options, the focus has shifted back to viable urban sites following the anticipated shelving of the previous government's flawed QSAC proposal in Nathan. ...

More > https://brisbanedevelopment-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/brisbanedevelopment.com/why-a-northshore-olympic-stadium-trumps-victoria-park-gabba-rebuild/?amp=1

^ It's pretty clear that whoever wrote that article hasn't put a lot of thought into the shortcomings of the Doomben line that would need to be rectified, including lack of platform capacity at Eagle Junction, the flat junction, the fact it's single track, the signalling system, and the lack of a way to even get the line to Northshore.

Quote from: hU0N on November 01, 2024, 16:11:49 PM

Quote from: AJ Transport on November 01, 2024, 12:26:27 PMAn Olympic stadium would take around double the space of the one you've shown. And that's not including the large areas of extra concreting around all large modern stadiums which doubles the footprint.

I've said it before but I don't believe vic park stadium will happen. Wealthy centrist voters revolt over issues like this and the liberals would be handing the Greens a perfect chance to reelect the federal MPs.

I think we're much more likely to return to the Gabba plan. The protests will return but the liberals won't have to fight their own voters or risk their own seats.

While I think that your read of the politics is spot on, I think it would be ironic to return to the Gabba because a stadium is "too big" to fit into Victoria Park.  The reality of the Gabba site is that there is barely 20m from the gutter on Vulture Street to the sideline of the field.  That leaves barely any space for a grandstand.

The existing stadium at the Gabba deals with this by stacking the seating tiers on top of each other.  Typical stadiums don't do this.  In a typical stadium, each tier of seating is positioned above and behind the next tier down. Typical stadiums are arranged like so:


The Gabba is much more like an old fashioned ball-park.  Like so:


The thing to notice here is how much space there is in the undercroft of a typical modern stadium, and how little undercroft there is in a "ball park" style stadium such as the Gabba.  In fact, the Gabba itself has even less space because the lowest seating tier is actually dug into the hill on the Vulture Street side.

The reality is that events such as the Olympics require the back of house space that you find in the undercroft of a typical modern stadium.  This is missing in the Gabba as it stands.  Even the space to construct an undercroft is missing from the Gabba.  The only solution is either to excavate an enormous cavern underneath the playing field, or else build a humungous platform up in the air with the whole stadium perched atop.  That's why the plan went from a $1b thought bubble to a $3b, 5 year project when the architects finally got a look at it.

Quote from: #Metro on November 01, 2024, 12:00:53 PMOne benefit of a Victoria Park stadium (or perhaps a Meanjin Stadium if you wanted to name it that) is the possibility of a Spring Hill train station being inserted into CRR at the approximate location of the Normanby Train Car Wash facility. This would give Spring Hill excellent PT access, which is otherwise difficult to service with PT due to the street layout.

Stadium or no, I think there should be a station here.  The distance between Roma St and Exhibition is one of the longest on the entire Beenleigh line, and it's not like the area is short of schools and universities that could benefit from improved public transport links.

Why not build the Stadium near the Exhibition Station and 2 busway stations in an are that is mostly barren, with an Energex depot and not even in the Park compared to a site that has quite extreme contour...I used to do hill sprints ion them They are a killer.

Sure it has its challengers but nothing like the slopes where the pretty drawings have them.

https://x.com/jonathanpbryant/status/1851148060883095738?s=46&t=EDszjTErsxTIqAna7yuP-w

Its a HV substation that is indoors. I'm not sure if you'd save much because for a piece of infrastructure like that would have to find a site nearby anyway, and mucking with central HV infrastructure is hideously expensive.

A site over a substation and an active road is basically doing stuff on hard mode.

You can definitely nest stadiums into hillsides though.

Quote from: Gazza on November 04, 2024, 09:21:21 AMIts a HV substation that is indoors. I'm not sure if you'd save much because for a piece of infrastructure like that would have to find a site nearby anyway, and mucking with central HV infrastructure is hideously expensive.

A site over a substation and an active road is basically doing stuff on hard mode.

You can definitely nest stadiums into hillsides though.

I reckon it is a push cost wise and one is far better located.

Sorry still dont agree. Excavating a hill is easy, they do it all the time, for example go see the Coffs Bypass.

Perth stadium is a good benchmark for a modern oval stadium. A stadium like that, with a decent walkway around the outside is 330m wide, so the entire stadium will have to be elevated over the rail line, ICB, plus relocating the energex infrastructure, and rebuilding things like the busway ramps.



Its the exact same reason all these ideas for TODs elevated over rail tracks never go anywhere, because its so expensive and disruptive working over a live rail line, its cheaper to build on the ground.

Hamilton Northsore

No new stadiums, so a rebuild of the 'Gabba is the only realistic option.  I think this is what they will go with. Transport is there in spades.

Lets be honest though, a rebuild of the Gabba IS a new stadium.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-news-live-deadly-cancer-detected-among-60-percent-of-men-over-60-could-lose-its-name-20241101-p5kn7t.html?post=p57sln#p57sln

Minister can't say whether rebuilding the Gabba is 'new stadium' or not

When is a new stadium a new stadium?

Given the new LNP state government has repeatedly ruled such an option out of bounds for it's looming 100-day review of 2032 Games venues, it's a pertinent question.

But, asked by journalists today if knocking down and rebuilding the Gabba would be classed as a new stadium, Deputy Premier Jarrod Bleijie said this was "getting into hypotheticals".

====

 

Quote from: ozbob on November 04, 2024, 13:56:04 PMNo new stadiums, so a rebuild of the 'Gabba is the only realistic option.  I think this is what they will go with. Transport is there in spades.

Definitely meets the transport requirements! Do you think that an Olympic stadium can fit in that space?

Quote from: Gazza on November 04, 2024, 14:09:34 PMLets be honest though, a rebuild of the Gabba IS a new stadium.

Anywhere else but Queensland it seems Gazza ... 

Quote from: ilovebrisvegas on November 04, 2024, 14:25:25 PM

Quote from: ozbob on November 04, 2024, 13:56:04 PMNo new stadiums, so a rebuild of the 'Gabba is the only realistic option.  I think this is what they will go with. Transport is there in spades.

Definitely meets the transport requirements! Do you think that an Olympic stadium can fit in that space?

I think it could but defer to those who know these things, but it will not be cheap. 

Quote from: ozbob on November 04, 2024, 14:23:43 PMhttps://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-news-live-deadly-cancer-detected-among-60-percent-of-men-over-60-could-lose-its-name-20241101-p5kn7t.html?post=p57sln#p57sln

Minister can't say whether rebuilding the Gabba is 'new stadium' or not

ROFL hows that for comedic timing.

Quote from: ilovebrisvegas on November 04, 2024, 14:25:25 PM

Quote from: ozbob on November 04, 2024, 13:56:04 PMNo new stadiums, so a rebuild of the 'Gabba is the only realistic option.  I think this is what they will go with. Transport is there in spades.

Definitely meets the transport requirements! Do you think that an Olympic stadium can fit in that space?

I don't. Drive/walk down Stanley Street sometime. The existing stadium doesn't even fit on the footprint. An Olympic stadium with an extra 10-20k seats definitely would need some serious engineering to either extend over Stanley/Vulture streets, over Main street, or demolish the school.

My top picks at the moment are Boondall or Toombul. Hamilton as a third but not that ridiculous private enterprise nonsense. And only if it involves a Doomben line upgrade and extension