RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Sure, I have been on some packed buses. It is usually only at a specific time, rather than all day that a metro bus would run. There's also usually still some spare seats that no one sits down at and the bus driver might declare it full.
However, if you had increased frequency, many of these people would end up on the other bus anyway.

Quote from: #Metro on October 14, 2024, 10:39:28 AM

Quote from: JonnoI have zero confidence that this 20 year plan and more bus oriented public transport will delivery anything different than the plans for the last 30 years.

The more something costs, the less of that something we can get with our budget. It's hard to accept, but it's also true. Commuter rail projects in SEQ also seem to be heading this way, especially when compared to Perth (which offers new rail at low unit costs and excellent BCRs).

At $1 billion/km, metro rail projects are pricing themselves out of existence.

Rail must be cheaper if we want it more abundant.

The BUZ program is highly successful and should be restarted to complement Metro buses. It is improvements to off-peak services that will move the dial on mode share, not peak.

we tried the "cost is the primary driver" approach over the last 30 years and look where it got us.  PS.  if 90% of trips are by motor vehicle then peak period has to do a hell of a lot more heavy lifting as well.

Quote from: RowBro on October 14, 2024, 11:06:31 AM

Quote from: SilverChased on October 14, 2024, 10:26:23 AMthese buses don't get full anyway.

Clearly have never been on the 66 during peak Uni loadings... The 66 definitely warrants the extra capacity. Not so sure about the 111. The other extensions, I'm not so sure about. It would make more sense to replace, say the 333, with standard artics before paying a premium for these metro busses.

333's are fine. The problem is network design helps contribute to crowding issues. For example in peak hour everyone jumps off the 111 (which are always high capacity/bendy buses) at cultural centre and boards an empty 330/333 or a 66. 330/333 arrive at Roma street and no one can board. This also creates excessive dwells and delays the thru capacity as at times all platform 1 traffic can not go anywhere. By the time they arrive at rbwh there are only a few onboard. During Ekka Roma street-RBWH 66 services were being run to prevent excessive platform overcrowding as at times there were simply too many people creating a safety issue.

To relieve pressure on the inner core extending the 111 to RBWH would solve a number of capacity and delay issues. As the metro service is doing this it is actually a smoke screen to make it appear that they will have extra benefits in reducing some of the existing issues. CRR is another that will have an impact as some train-bus transfers will be eliminated.

Quote from: SilverChased on September 21, 2024, 11:40:29 AM

Quote from: ozbob on September 21, 2024, 10:58:13 AM.

The 169 trial with the bi-artics will be interesting.  I hope to get on it when it starts.   

Is there meant to be an adjusted timetable for this? Boggo Road to 8MP Plains in the morning are 4 buses per hour on 169. It also says it is quicker to catch two buses (66+555) than take the 169.

I don't actually find the current buses full. Maybe I dont travel at the right time or direction. Frequency could be better, but the new buses are designed for capacity rather than frequency.

The travel time for the 169 includes 8 minutes to travel from Garden City busway to 8MP.  The bus is then timetabled for a 6 minute layover at 8MP.  I've never caught the 169 to 8MP, but I suspect they don't actually do that, and the actual journey from Boggo Rd to 8MP is closer to 16 minutes. But someone else might know different.

I haven't noticed it taking that long at Garden City to 8MP but I've seen a few buses overtake it due to dwell time. It might be buffer in the schedule due to dwell time?

I do wish the timetable was more accurate though as people do base their route on the apps receiving these feeds.

What happened to there being no go card readers on the metro buses to speed up dwell time? That could have been a decent time saving for a bus that is guaranteed to need to stop at every station, once the other routes get collapsed.

I imagine it got ditched because it would simply be too hard to get passengers to use the system correctly with a mixture of on and off busway routes.

If the reader density on-board is higher than 2 per door it might not be too much of an issue.  If 2 per door is all they have gone with then keep in mind that is the same number on board the 3-door artics already in use, and with a higher passenger density.

By way of comparison - an E-class tram has 2 per door, but in practice it amounts to 4 per door since there is practically (or actually) nowhere the doors on both sides would be open at the same time.

Quote from: Gazza on October 14, 2024, 13:18:45 PMI imagine it got ditched because it would simply be too hard to get passengers to use the system correctly with a mixture of on and off busway routes.

is there anything of the orginal intent left?

Adelaide St tunnel, longer platforms and the long bois.

Quote from: SurfRail on October 14, 2024, 14:26:07 PMIf the reader density on-board is higher than 2 per door it might not be too much of an issue.  If 2 per door is all they have gone with then keep in mind that is the same number on board the 3-door artics already in use, and with a higher passenger density.

By way of comparison - an E-class tram has 2 per door, but in practice it amounts to 4 per door since there is practically (or actually) nowhere the doors on both sides would be open at the same time.

Photos I've seen indicate 2 readers per door.

Quote from: Gazza on October 14, 2024, 15:29:26 PMAdelaide St tunnel, longer platforms and the long bois.

long bus?  that was meant to be a long train.  so we are down to Adelaide St tunnel and some longer platforms. Talk about scope removal but $$ went up.

Quote from: Jonnolong bus?  that was meant to be a long train.  so we are down to Adelaide St tunnel and some longer platforms. Talk about scope removal but $$ went up.

Will you be taking a ride on the Brisbane Metro bus Jonno?

Quotelong bus?  that was meant to be a long train.

lol no it wasn't, originally it was going to be a short line that only ran from Gabba to Herston and was going to use rubber tired trains that most likely would have been short due to the tight turns they were planning.

https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2016/06/brisbane-metro-subway-system-cut-crap.html

Quote from: #Metro on October 14, 2024, 17:00:58 PM

Quote from: Jonnolong bus?  that was meant to be a long train.  so we are down to Adelaide St tunnel and some longer platforms. Talk about scope removal but $$ went up.

Will you be taking a ride on the Brisbane Metro bus Jonno?

Only if I happen to be using the route and need to use it.

Quote from: Gazza on October 14, 2024, 17:18:36 PM

Quotelong bus?  that was meant to be a long train.

lol no it wasn't, originally it was going to be a short line that only ran from Gabba to Herston and was going to use rubber tired trains that most likely would have been short due to the tight turns they were planning.

https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2016/06/brisbane-metro-subway-system-cut-crap.html

But was the train length longer than the bus?  I assumed that was wat you said by long bus     

If it had a track as originally planned, it would be possible to have driverless and hence more reliable and frequent services. Especially off-peak.
I think that would be better value personally. It would also be more obvious why you touch on and off on the platform like a train, rather than on the vehicle like a bus.

As an aside, is there any plan or roadmap to have automated buses within busway using some driverless technologies (camera, lidar) in the future? As it is a controlled environment,  I believe we have the technology to do it already today.
We like to talk about Perth on here. Apparently they are trialling some autonomous (but with driver) trackless tram (bus) from China.
https://www.stirling.wa.gov.au/your-city/shaping-our-city/search-all-projects/trackless-trams-business-case

QuoteIf it had a track as originally planned, it would be possible to have driverless and hence more reliable and frequent services. Especially off-peak.
I think that would be better value personally. It would also be more obvious why you touch on and off on the platform like a train, rather than on the vehicle like a bus.

It is possible to run buses on a track: these are guided buses and a good example is the Adelaide O-Bahn system.

The thing about the Brisbane system is that it is an open, not a closed system. Buses originate in the suburbs and then flow into the busway. For this reason, you will definitely need a driver for the suburban sections of the route.

In terms of touching on or off, I have always liked the PTUA's April Fool's suggestion of using the eTag RFID tag. After all, it it works for cars, making it work for PT users should be very easy!

Axe Myki and use e-Tag instead, says PTUA
https://www.ptua.org.au/2013/04/01/axe-myki-use-etag/

Quote from: The Brisbane ChannelThe new Brisbane Metro will be carrying up to 150 passengers at a time around Brisbane starting on the 21st of October, 2024, but before official runs begin along the 169 route, members of the public had the opportunity to experience a ride on the Metro buses. Of course THE Brisbane Channel was there to share it with you.

Quote from: #Metro on October 14, 2024, 20:33:44 PM

QuoteIf it had a track as originally planned, it would be possible to have driverless and hence more reliable and frequent services. Especially off-peak.
I think that would be better value personally. It would also be more obvious why you touch on and off on the platform like a train, rather than on the vehicle like a bus.

It is possible to run buses on a track: these are guided buses and a good example is the Adelaide O-Bahn system.

The thing about the Brisbane system is that it is an open, not a closed system. Buses originate in the suburbs and then flow into the busway. For this reason, you will definitely need a driver for the suburban sections of the route.

The metro 1 and 2 routes are essentially isolated to the busway though. The only complication is that other non-metro buses use the busway as well.
If it is automated, it would just need to be aware of potential non-automated buses and the rare pedestrian or unauthorised vehicle. Surely that technology exists today, for an otherwise controlled environment.

We use this already in my line of work with mining trucks. Automated trucks work alongside non-automated trucks and civs (like utes) and potential people, on assigned virtual routes that can be made on the fly. A busway is a far more controlled environment.

I understand we aren't going to have a state of art system, so a monorail guide is more likely to enable this automation. I did find it interesting that the city of Stirling is exploring the virtual guide rail (Chinese tech) instead though.

Quote from: Jonno on October 14, 2024, 18:33:01 PM

Quote from: Gazza on October 14, 2024, 17:18:36 PM

Quotelong bus?  that was meant to be a long train.

lol no it wasn't, originally it was going to be a short line that only ran from Gabba to Herston and was going to use rubber tired trains that most likely would have been short due to the tight turns they were planning.

https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2016/06/brisbane-metro-subway-system-cut-crap.html

But was the train length longer than the bus?  I assumed that was wat you said by long bus     

300 pax was quoted which is similar to LRT, but then the capacity is not necessarily higher because buses have a shorter platform reoccupation time.
So do you spend money on construction costs ,or spend money on higher labour costs?

I still maintain the view that something like metro we got is worthwhile in terms of getting the busway flowing better....If its a busway, make it a functional one basically.

But if you are proposing major reconstruction works to retrofit a track, well screw it, and build that infrastructure on a better corridor instead of next to a freeway....Eg tunnel under logan road.
Its not like the current busway would dissapear, but it would be subject to lower demand if people from surrounding suburbs had stations in their heart, instead of "off to the side" next to the M3.

Or build Flagstone rail in order to reduce demand from the 130, 140, 150 and the associated rockets.

I am looking forward to having a ride on a Bertie (a bi-articulated electric bus that runs on the Brisbane BERT system) on Monday next (21st October 2024).  If all goes as planned I should be at PA Hospital bus station around 9.15am or so.

Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) has its advantages and disadvantages, like all modes.
Dressing it up as ' Metro ' is really high farce, it is realistically solid BRT.

It will always be BERT to me!   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

Another factor is that if BCC is saying these things carry 150-170 pax depending on situation, given these are buses it is much more likely to be accurate and an actual limit, based on licensing and industrial (RTBU) requirements.

Trams on the Gold Coast are given a notional carrying capacity of 309 (80 seated, 229 standing), but this is based on 4 pax / sqm and is not a hard regulatory or other limit.  I have seen a crush capacity figure somewhere for the E class (which have roughly the same door density) calculated at 6 pax / sqm which is around 300.  If you apply the same rate to a Gold Coast Flexity 2, you get about 420 pax.  I am pretty confident that figure has been reached from time to time, especially for major events (going all the way back to launch day in 2014 when the system took about 100,000 passengers over the day). 

Single-ended trams common elsewhere in the world have a higher seating density, but they don't have the advantage of wide doorways on both sides which give you more standing room (also an issue for Brisbane's biartics).

The buses definitely feel spacious and luxe as the lowest density configuration of lighTram 25. I saw numbers in the 200s for capacity of this HESS bus for other regions. For example, 220 in Lausanne.
In fact, they typically carry 150 passengers on their 18 metre buses.
It feels like we just copied the Nantes design, charging and configuration because it was the first one, operational in 2019.

By the way, I hadn't seen this posted here before but their HESS testing video on Mt Cootha was quite interesting: https://youtu.be/4Labogrixx4
Managed to handle driving up Mt Cootha stuffed with sandbags.

https://translink.com.au/updates/587291
I just saw this page published today and specifically this text:

QuoteTo catch a metro vehicle, hail the service like you would a bus or use the help phone on the platform to request the service. You can board through the first, middle and rear compartment doors.

Does this mean we can call up and request a 169 outbound in the morning when it is 20-25 minutes between services? Have you always been able to call up and request a bus, or do you need to be disabled or similar?

They have also updated the timetable for 169 during the preview. For morning outbound, buses are currently 25 minutes from UQ Lakes to 8MP and 22 minutes from Boggo Rd to 8MP. From the 21st, this changes to 22 minutes and 17 minutes respectively. Decent 25% time saving and it will now be preferenced over every other service in the journey planners.

The frequency has changed as well, removing the 25 minute gap I had just mentioned. It is now every 20 minutes instead.

The timetable for the 169 from 21 Oct 2024 shows the off peak services are every 15 to 20 minutes, 5 to 10 minutes at peak times.  I understand the help phone is for those who need it for various reasons.

^^ Using the phone would make sense for people with lower motor control who aren't able to operate the door and ramp switches.

Do those levels of frequency more or less match the current route 169 frequency?

The frequency was slightly improved. As I mentioned, there was a 25 minute gap in the morning. It seems to have been made more consistent.

It is now correctly split up as Inbound and Outbound rather than clockwise.

Quote from: SilverChased on October 16, 2024, 11:39:55 AMIt is now correctly split up as Inbound and Outbound rather than clockwise.

The clockwise stuff is an artefact of the recent UQ Lakes works (except for the 29 and maybe the 28?) as the routes were scheduled as not terminating at UQ.

I saw about half a dozen Metros running along the busway during my bus ride in this morning, which is the most yet. Possibly a dress rehearsal for Monday.

On Monday I'm looking to include a Metro in my morning commute to try it out.

Yes, plenty of metros just now. I noticed they were doing a lot of two metros back to back. Maybe a different type of test?

Quote from: nathandavid88 on October 18, 2024, 14:54:08 PMI saw about half a dozen Metros running along the busway during my bus ride in this morning, which is the most yet. Possibly a dress rehearsal for Monday.

On Monday I'm looking to include a Metro in my morning commute to try it out.

Did Sydney's Metros get lost and end up in Brisbane or was it just slightly longer buses?

I will definitely not be on a Metro ( I will not be Sydney ) come Monday the 21st October 2024 on the 169. 

I will endeavour to board a bus (an electric bi-articulated bus) running route 169 on the busways. 

 

Quote from: ozbob on October 19, 2024, 20:38:58 PMI will definitely not be on a Metro ( I will not be Sydney ) come Monday the 21st October 2024 on the 169. 

I will endeavour to board a bus (an electric bi-articulated bus) running route 169 on the busways. 

 

See you onboard a Bertie!!

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1848010521267863710



Brisbanetimes --> Everything you need to know about the Brisbane Metro $

QuoteSomething new is rolling out on Brisbane's roads.

It's not a tram, and it's definitely not a train. It's more like a bus. (But don't call it a bus.)

Almost nine years after then-lord mayor Graham Quirk announced his Brisbane Metro plan, the first vehicles are taking to the streets. ..

... Murphy admitted the Brisbane Metro name caused "some confusion", and hinted there might be changes in the future.

"We're having a good look at the name at the moment ... but ultimately, we're not obsessed with the name."

Murphy said Metro 1 and 2 would run at five-minute frequencies, but could be ramped up to three-minutes in peak hour.

A date for a full opening depended on negotiations with the state government, which was in caretaker mode, he said. ...

Sent to all outlets:

BERT (Busway Electric Rapid Transit) begins today!

21st October 2024

Greetings,

RAIL Back On Track welcomes the introduction of new bus rapid transit services on the busway between Eight Mile Plains and UQ Lakes from today, 21st October 2024.

The new electric bi-articulated buses are running the 169 timetable ( https://translink.com.au/updates/587291 ) and passengers will be able to hail, board and pay for their fare as for all other Brisbane bus routes.

It is unfortunate that the improvements in bus rapid transit (BRT) are being described as part of the ' Brisbane Metro '.  Bus rapid transit is not a metro.  Sydney has a metro.

It is pleasing to note that Cr Murphy has been quoted in the *Brisbanetimes today as:

Quote... Murphy admitted the Brisbane Metro name caused "some confusion", and hinted there might be changes in the future.

"We're having a good look at the name at the moment ... but ultimately, we're not obsessed with the name."

* https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-brisbane-metro-20241007-p5kgfe.html

RAIL Back On Track has long suggested a suitable name for the improvements in bus rapid transit on the busways would be  BERT (Busway Electric Rapid Transit) - this correctly describes what it is, and would be an excellent marketing tool.  The new electric bi-articulated buses could be referred to as ' Berties '.

Congratulations BCC and all involved with the commencement of the improved bus rapid transit! 

I plan to have a ride today on BERT!

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Facebook ...

https://x.com/railbotforum/status/1848023480035606592

Well done BCC, 'Superbuses' from 2014 now delivered. Will only expand further across Brisbane from here on.

🍿🍿🍿🍿

First BERT revenue service

> https://www.facebook.com/share/p/aHg1xs3jMoAQRGBB/