RAIL - Back On Track Forum

I understand that. I mean will the timetable be adjusted for the trial?

Quote from: ilovebrisvegas on September 21, 2024, 12:44:01 PMYes, BERT to Airport is in reality very low priority if any priority at all.  There is rail, and besides, BERT extensions are best where there is no rail e.g. Capalaba and the Sunnybank extension.  Funds are precious and best allocated to improving and putting in services where there isn't that much.

100% agree. I have actually been thinking that if a BERT was built to Capalaba, that it would be worth extending that to either Birkdale rail station or Cleveland via Finucane Road, which would give MUCH better connectivity with the Cleveland line, and also provide a seamless connection from the Redlands to Westfield Carindale, which a lot of people from that area travel to for shopping.

I think on road running would be fine for either of those options. Birkdale Road is pretty straightforward, and Finucane Road could be made faster with some bus lanes with bus priority signalling at the intersections along the route.

I've thought about the idea of linking up with Birkdale too. The increased connectivity options would be amazing and yeah even just some buslanes would help.

Running along Old Cleveland Road East to Birkdale also has the added benefit of running straight past the proposed venue for the Redlands Whitewater Centre for the 2032 Olympics, which would provide some great connectivity for this Olympic venue

Want a ride on a Bertie?

====

Here is my prediction.

We won't see any change in patronage after the city-changing BERTIE buses start.

The Brisbane Metro BRT services are meant to solve the congestion issue at Cultural Centre and increase vehicle capacity on already highly patronised routes. The service does not go anywhere that a high-frequency bus does not already go.

In this regard, they are not expected to increase patronage.

Patronage growth will instead come from some of the other service changes like the combination of 174 and 175 into an all-day frequent bus service on Logan Road.

The best chance for rapid patronage growth remains restarting the BUZ network in combination with boosting off-peak rail frequency, similar to your own plans Jonno. BUZ increases there are typically 100%, mostly driven by high growth in the off-peak periods.

BUZ Routes
http://hdl.handle.net/2123/6058

Event   

QuoteMetro depot community open day
To celebrate the Rochedale metro depot being open and ready to support metro operations, we're inviting Brisbane residents to a Community Open Day on Sunday 13 October from 10am to 2pm.

Explore one of Australia's most technologically advanced depots and be one of the first to experience the future of public transport, and enjoy live entertainment, kids' activities and food.

The event will be held at the Rochedale metro depot and Council will be providing a free local shuttle service from a nearby location. There is no public parking available at the depot. More details will be provided closer to the event. Find event details.

https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-and-transport/public-transport/brisbane-metro

Quote from: #Metro on September 22, 2024, 10:25:44 AMThe Brisbane Metro BRT services are meant to solve the congestion issue at Cultural Centre and increase vehicle capacity on already highly patronised routes. The service does not go anywhere that a high-frequency bus does not already go.

In this regard, they are not expected to increase patronage.

Patronage growth will instead come from some of the other service changes like the combination of 174 and 175 into an all-day frequent bus service on Logan Road.

The best chance for rapid patronage growth remains restarting the BUZ network in combination with boosting off-peak rail frequency, similar to your own plans Jonno. BUZ increases there are typically 100%, mostly driven by high growth in the off-peak periods.

BUZ Routes
http://hdl.handle.net/2123/6058

Yep agree 2 billion and it won't increase patronage!! Want my rates back please

Jonno, the main reason is that it is simply replacing one high frequency service with another high frequency service.

To get new passengers, service needs to extend to where it isn't already frequent.

Quote from: #Metro on September 22, 2024, 11:48:38 AMJonno, the main reason is that it is simply replacing one high frequency service with another high frequency service.

To get new passengers, service needs to extend to where it isn't already frequent.

well it is actually reducing capacity but it is just not a big enough change to make a difference.  It's all so incremental!!

I thought the idea was to consolidate the busway routes in to frequent high capacity metro routes and then have all those regular buses feed in to them, improving the network and improving patronage?

Quote from: Jonnowell it is actually reducing capacity but it is just not a big enough change to make a difference.  It's all so incremental!!

Agreed Jonno.

At 40 million passengers per year, the SEB corridor already has the patronage to support a rail-based metro at 4 min intervals in peak. A North-South subway could extend up to Chermside, Aspley and Carseldine and buses could then be run off it.

Setting any discussion about costs to one side, a rail-based metro from 8 Mile Plains to Chermside/Aspley probably is the right mode for this case, all things considered. The ability to take interchanging passengers, for example, is much better for the rail-based metro option than the BRT bus option. And huge amounts of bus service citywide would be freed up by buses no longer having to drive the entire distance into the Brisbane CBD.

Sadly, at potentially $1 billion/km (ballpark $30b for 8MP to Aspley) it would be a hard sell versus alternatives.

The current Brisbane subway proposals (e.g. Connecting SEQ 2031 Brisbane subway) present a Paris-style inner-city service. This is not what we need IMO. For Brisbane, the greatest demand is along a North-South axis Chermside-CBD-8MP and a more suitable plan would therefore be one closer to what Sydney has done (line haul).

The distance CBD-Chermside is about 10 km, so at $1 billion/km the ballpark for a rail-based metro would be about $10 billion, the same as what the Gympie Road Tunnel is likely to cost. Something for members to think about.

Notes
15,000 pphd / 1000 pax metro train = 15 trains per hour, which is a service every 4 mins.

Just imagine what 89% of trips at 6x the subsidy is costing us.

Quote from: SilverChased on September 22, 2024, 13:16:35 PMI thought the idea was to consolidate the busway routes in to frequent high capacity metro routes and then have all those regular buses feed in to them, improving the network and improving patronage?

It is. Don't listen to Jonno, he is Mr negative when it comes to Brisbane Metro, and has a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole purpose of the project

What's the basis for saying that the heaviest demand is north south?

Isn't that kind of due the fact that it's the only corridor where a high level of service is provided?

Demand was induced on the southeast busway corridor because good service was provided . Yet This hasn't been done in other areas even though it could do well.

I believe in east west Metro could do well because currently East-West journeys are a little bit painful by car and indirect due to the river so public transport could have a massive advantage if it cuts straight under.

Unfortunately I think the council and government look at current demand to predict future demand instead of looking at where people are and where they are going.
I purposely start my journey from more frequent terminus and watch as these grow in to larger and larger hubs.

Quote from: timh on September 22, 2024, 18:59:14 PM

Quote from: SilverChased on September 22, 2024, 13:16:35 PMI thought the idea was to consolidate the busway routes in to frequent high capacity metro routes and then have all those regular buses feed in to them, improving the network and improving patronage?

It is. Don't listen to Jonno, he is Mr negative when it comes to Brisbane Metro, and has a fundamental misunderstanding of the whole purpose of the project

89% of trips.  Not negative just want actually change!

Quote from: SilverChased on September 22, 2024, 19:37:44 PMUnfortunately I think the council and government look at current demand to predict future demand instead of looking at where people are and where they are going.

This was all but confirmed with Steven Miles saying that improving service in the regions is like a chicken and egg problem where they need the patronage to be able to increase service. I mean the logic is completely flawed but alas that's the car brain that exists currently.

It's a very car centric way of thinking since of course when there's roads between every single destination it's super easy to see which routes have demand by just counting the cars/ The issue is, if there is no existing PT connection or an extremely poor service it simply doesn't work like that.

Quote from: RowBroThis was all but confirmed with Steven Miles saying that improving service in the regions is like a chicken and egg problem where they need the patronage to be able to increase service. I mean the logic is completely flawed but alas that's the car brain that exists currently.

It is not really a chicken and egg problem as Miles may have put it.

Service upgrade trials can be run for say 6-12 months of high-frequency services and see what happens. This is also low cost - a good BUZ-type service would be about $5/million year to operate.

Quote from: Jonno on September 22, 2024, 09:38:00 AMHere is my prediction.

We won't see any change in patronage after the city-changing BERTIE buses start.

I disagree. There are bottlenecks on the busway that are regularly congested like the Cultural Centre and Buranda Station that are both seeing longer platforms and incremental improvements. Sometimes I see buses backed up between Greenslopes Station and Buranda. Eliminating the bottlenecks should see improved reliability and passenger experience.

Commuting habits take time to change but I think improved reliability and cheaper fares would keep increasing patronage.

BRT needs to keep expanding out further like Carseldine, Capalaba and Browns Plains to improve bus reliability more broadly.

I do also think Brisbane needs to look beyond the bus network, but I also think the bus network isn't going away any time soon.

Quote from: SilverChased on September 20, 2024, 15:58:37 PM

Quote from: nathandavid88 on September 20, 2024, 15:32:26 PM^^ Low hanging fruit, but I would press for the 'Metro 1' route to be extended down to Rochedale and Springwood as soon as the Busway extension is completed. It just makes sense to have it cover the entirety of the SE Busway, not stop two stations short.

Is it to do with frequency? There is a convenient turnaround at 8MP and limited bi-artic buses.

I think it's mainly that, when "Metro" was originally planned, 8MP was the end of the line for the busway. BCC services all used the turnaround, while services going further south from there (like Clarks' 555 and peak services) were pushed out onto the M1 to Springwood and beyond to areas well outside the BCC LGA.

However, since then the busway has been extended, first to School Road (which facilitates access to the "Metro" depot) and now onto the very close to completion Rochedale Busway Station (which is located within the BCC LGA - albeit only just), and then onwards to Springwood Station. Being part of Brisbane, extending "Metro" to service Rochedale would make political sense, but Rochedale doesn't have a turnabout so it needs to go to Springwood. 

There could be issues with number of vehicles and frequency constraints, I get that, but considering it's only 6-8 minutes between 8MP and Springwood currently (according to the current 555 timetable using the highway), surely such a relatively minor extension could be accommodated with minimal extra investment.

Schrinner has talked about Springwood in the past. It makes huge amount of sense from a network perspective and it's 5km for two stops at almost top speed. We can always buy more vehicles - we'll have to, if we're to do all the expansions! 

In terms of the Metro patronage uptick, I expect to see some uplift due to the higher perception of comfort and legibility, further improved by the new tunnel.

Similar to the "tram bonus" you get with LRT but perhaps not as spectacular.

Also because some feeders are being boosted, that'll enhance the "network effect" and deliver more pax into the busway stations.

I expect the main patronage uplift will come from freeing up more buses to run more frequent and direct services like what is happening with the 175 and 185.  The main benefit for the 2 routes the Hess vehicles will run on is more capacity service for service compared with the 66/111/160/555 alone.

BCC: Brisbane Metro Depot Community Open Day

Sun, 13 Oct, 2024
9:00 AM - 3:00PM

Tickets

https://sustainablebrisbane.zohobackstage.com.au/BrisbaneMetroDepotCommunityOpenDay#/

To celebrate the Rochedale metro depot being open, Brisbane City Council is inviting Brisbane residents to a Community Open Day on Sunday 13 October from 9am to 3pm.

Explore one of Australia's most technologically advanced depots and be one of the first to experience the future of public transport. Not only will you see the depot's state-of-the-art facilities that keep our electric metros moving, there will also be live music, displays, kids' activities and food trucks - something for everybody.

The open day will be held at the Rochedale metro depot and Council will be providing free high-frequency bus services from three stations:

·      Griffith University busway station

·      Upper Mt Gravatt busway station

·      Eight Mile Plains busway station

Please note, there is no public parking available at the metro depot.

This is a ticketed event, with three session times available:

·      Session 1: 9:00am - 11:00am

·      Session 2: 11:00am - 1:00pm

·      Session 3: 1:00pm - 3:00pm

We ask that you please only attend your allocated session. Once you have selected your preferred session, a ticket confirmation email will be sent to you with travel and event information.

For any enquiries please contact the Brisbane Metro team on metro@brisbane.qld.gov.au

We look forward to welcoming you to the Brisbane Metro depot community open day.

On my run in this morning, I saw a number of the Metro vehicles out on the busway - two ran past my bus heading back towards 8MP, and one was a few buses ahead of me the whole way in and turned off onto towards UQ. I'm guessing that this was preparing for their use on the 169 - that starts this month, right?

^ yes, I think the bi-artics on the 169 starts from Monday 21st October 2024.

I hope to at least get a ride from PA Hospital <> UQ Lakes as time allows for me.

I'm somewhat lucky (long commute  ) that I have a route that is about the same time via several different routes with combination of driving, train and bus. One of which includes the 169 from Boggo Rd to 8MP. I'll be sure to check it out too!

https://x.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1845024291534082392

Was there today and got to speak with the project manager. Also had a quick loop ride on one as well.

A good initiative, but NOT a metro.

Good initiative. Wrong corridor!!

It is fantastic to see these Metro buses ready to be put into service!

Yes they are not a metro train or light rail, but we all now need to accept that they are now here and working.   

Let's support the rollout of these buses to more corridors, even off-busways like Mains Road, Gympie Road etc. And more BUZ services. Better service builds demand, and results in a simpler network, which in turn drives patronage and makes further upgrades in the future easier (possibly even mode changes to light rail).

Where is the Brisbane rail-based metro? Still an unfunded idea from 2010 and not carrying passengers right now unfortunately. Maybe it is another 30 or 40 years away.

Notes
20-year transport vision unveiled for south-east Queensland
https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/67634

I have zero confidence that this 20 year plan and more bus oriented public transport will delivery anything different than the plans for the last 30 years.

Mode Share2 by Jon Bryant, on Flickr

One thing I took from experiencing the Metro yesterday is how they are essentially just expensive buses. The number of extra seats isn't appreciably different (extra 35 or so including standing room)? Most buses don't actually get full -- they just don't come very often. Frequency is one of the touted benefits but it is fairly unrelated. Smaller buses could have done the same thing as, again, these buses don't get full anyway.

The biggest issue to frequency is likely driver numbers. It feels like they are trying to measure by seats instead to get around this problem. However, it is a false economy because those seats will not get filled.

I appreciate they are trying to combine routes to ensure these buses are filled. Again, though, there's only capacity for roughly 35 more people?

Quote from: JonnoI have zero confidence that this 20 year plan and more bus oriented public transport will delivery anything different than the plans for the last 30 years.

The more something costs, the less of that something we can get with our budget. It's hard to accept, but it's also true. Commuter rail projects in SEQ also seem to be heading this way, especially when compared to Perth (which offers new rail at low unit costs and excellent BCRs).

At $1 billion/km, metro rail projects are pricing themselves out of existence.

Rail must be cheaper if we want it more abundant.

The BUZ program is highly successful and should be restarted to complement Metro buses. It is improvements to off-peak services that will move the dial on mode share, not peak.

Quote from: SilverChased on October 14, 2024, 10:26:23 AMthese buses don't get full anyway.

Clearly have never been on the 66 during peak Uni loadings... The 66 definitely warrants the extra capacity. Not so sure about the 111. The other extensions, I'm not so sure about. It would make more sense to replace, say the 333, with standard artics before paying a premium for these metro busses.