RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Doomben line isn't going anywhere. The best we can hope for is duplication, and maybe increased frequency/span.

Absolutely right!

Why downgrade a train line to a lower order transport mode?

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1830400004781195651?t=lVCIT2RmKbdilGiqJzw4NA&s=19

Will members be on the first revenue service? Might be a good event 🙂🙂

I presume the very first will be leaving from Eight Mile Plains.
Maybe for members already on that side of town 

But it would be fun to greet it at UQ Lakes and then ride the first outbound and a later inbound.

UQ Lakes - facilities for the Berties (electric bi-articulated buses)









R Dow 2 Sep 2024

Couriermail --> Brisbane Metro: $450m expansion into suburbs approved by feds $

QuoteA bold plan to extend Brisbane Metro to the airport and South East Queensland suburbia in time for the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games has received the backing of the federal government.

The Courier-Mail can reveal Infrastructure Minister Catherine King is supportive of the Brisbane City Council and state government plan, and has vowed to keep $150m in federal funding on the table.

Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner and Premier Steven Miles last month joined forces, alongside the Council of Mayors SEQ, to lobby the federal government to fast-track a business case for the extension. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1836778761615999128

So, the Woolloongabba $450 million station has been officially scrapped and is likely to be redirected to expanding Brisbane Metro BRT.

Excellent move! I think I had suggested something like this funding redirection previously.

This is the approach we can really benefit from.

Having 22 new BRT stations all over the city in mix of Priority A and Priority B ROW with Brisbane Metro BRT than a singular $450 million station at Woolloongabba seems like great value.

BNE Airport
BNE Airport access could be sorted by scrapping 50c fares and using the $300 min/year to buy out Airtrain plus fund ongoing Airport line timetable boost and fare reduction on the line.

If Brisbane Metro buses will be accessing the Airport via AirportLink then it already breaks the idea that these vehicles should only regularly run on busways. We might see the vehicle run on more major arterials staff as from Browns Plains, Indooroopilly etc.

Federal backing also makes both Doomben line conversion and extension to Chermside more likely. The Queensland Government generally acts when all the levels partner and align so this is also a good sign.

The extension to Chermside is very interesting. Is this line in the surface or underground? There is an opportunity here to repurpose the Gympie Road tunnel as a busway, and in doing so get Brisbane Metro BRT, the northern busway and scrap the Gympie Road Tunnel - a triple win from our own perspective.

Just do the Eastern busway. Preliminary plans already exist. Largely tunneled from Langlands Park to the start of the old tram tracks ar Camp Hill. Parts of the station cavern already exist at Coorparoo Square.
From Camp Hill to Capalaba it's all largely median running, with a few flyovers/cut and cover sections.

If they want to roll it into an Olympics thing, it makes a lot of sense to prioritise getting a Class A ROW out to Sleeman Sports Complex considering that Velodrome Cycling, Water Polo, Diving, BMX and I think also gymnastics will all be held out there

It will cost a hell of a lot more than half a billion dollars, but it's a start

Quote from: #Metro on September 20, 2024, 07:26:58 AMFederal backing also makes both Doomben line conversion and extension to Chermside more likely. The Queensland Government generally acts when all the levels partner and align so this is also a good sign.

For someone who clearly has a sound understanding of economics and finance, why are you so keen on spending all this money converting the Doomben line when the money could be better spent doing more important things such as increasing service levels on major bus routes or duplicating the Cleveland line. It just seems to be at odds with other things you advocate for.

Quote from: RowBroFor someone who clearly has a sound understanding of economics and finance, why are you so keen on spending all this money converting the Doomben line when the money could be better spent doing more important things such as increasing service levels on major bus routes or duplicating the Cleveland line. It just seems to be at odds with other things you advocate for.

The Doomben line is an existing line. From a mode-neutral perspective, it is simply upgrading something we already have (a Priority A corridor).

By changing mode from rail to bus, services could go from half-hourly to every ~ 5-6 minutes in the off-peak. The QLD Government and BCC would need to compare and study the relative merit of a rail upgrade vs a BRT conversion, which should be done anyway.

You are right that restarting the BUZ program is probably the first priority within BCC. It is a highly effective program with typical patronage increases of 100%. It could be funded in its entirety with money left to spare within the BCC LGA by simply repurposing funds currently directed at 50c fares.

Notes

BUZ = frequency and reliability - the winning formula, Alan Warren, Brisbane City Council
https://thredbo-conference-series.org/downloads/thredbo10_papers/thredbo10-themeA-Warren.pdf

50c Fares Repurposing
Estimated cost of 20 new BUZ routes along Brisbane major arterials x $5 million/year run cost = about $100 million/year. The 50c fares initiative cost $300 million/year. This leaves $200 million/year left to spend on something else.

91% of trips by motor vehicle! This is so fiddling at the edges it's laughable!

There is already a free shuttle between DFO and the airport. How is this allowed but a Metro requires buying out the airtrain contract?

BERT extensions are only a plan.

The future of Woolloongabba has not yet been determined, it is possible that it might be back on after the Queensland State Election.

The proposed Airport Extension of BERT is the lowest probability (near zero) of the mooted extensions of actually occurring IMHO .  The BNE Airtrain contract has to be sorted first, and even then I think the Airport Link route would be the option. The Doomben line is going no where, and in fact could be a key part of future developments at Hamilton North Shore.

Everyone, including BCC, need to swallow some reality chill pills.

Quote from: SilverChasedThere is already a free shuttle between DFO and the airport. How is this allowed but a Metro requires buying out the airtrain contract?

This is a great question. I suspect the answer is because Brisbane Airport operates the bus (BARL deed is between Airtrain and the Queensland Government) and because no fare is charged on the shuttle bus (so it's not commercial).

Quote from: #Metro on September 20, 2024, 07:51:04 AMBy changing mode from rail to bus, services could go from half-hourly to every ~ 5-6 minutes in the off-peak. The QLD Government and BCC would need to compare and study the relative merit of a rail upgrade vs a BRT conversion, which should be done anyway.

The thing is, I don't see a need for the Doomben line to have that high of a frequency. A 15-minute service would be more than adequate out of peak for a line that isn't direct to the city and doesn't have a large trip generator. Most people heading to the city will just catch the 300, 301, or even the Gold Glider if that ever gets going.

If you duplicate the line, you'd be able to manage 15-minute service frequency. The sub tracks from EJ inwards certainly have enough capacity for 15-minute frequency on the Airport, Shorncliffe, and Doomben lines throughout the day. Once ETCS 2 is rolled out on that section of track (and the trains are equipped of course), you could probably even manage 7.5-minute headways on all the lines (24 tph).

If Doomben is converted to BRT, i want to know how you bridge the gap between Eagle Junction and the Northern Busway.

Bus lanes on Junction Rd and some sort of treatment of the intersection at Kedron park rd.

Or 2km of tunnel from EJ to Kedron Brook Busway station?

Or is it a standalone line which terminates at EJ at a bus loop, with no connections to other Brisbane Metro services?

RowBro, why is it better to run a 500 or 1000 pax train at 15 min frequency if patronage is lower versus a 150 seat articulated bus at say 5-6 minute frequencies?

Your comment seems to suggest we need capacity more than frequency, but for my own view it's the other way around.

Quote from: #Metro on September 20, 2024, 09:46:43 AMRowBro, why is it better to run a 500 or 1000 pax train at 15 min frequency if patronage is lower versus a 150 seat articulated bus at say 5-6 minute frequencies?

Your comment seems to suggest we need capacity more than frequency, but for my own view it's the other way around.

You have answered your own question in the question.  RowBro can comment as you wish.  There are much higher priorities for BERT extensions eg. Springwood, Capalaba, than hundreds of millions of dollars trying to convert an existing transport asset to a half baked BRT solution.  Time to move on to some sensible discussions.

I have never seen any explanation of why we need a second mass transit line to the airport when most of the region has none. It just makes no sense at all. If the claim is that the airport train is too expensive then just make it cheaper. You might have to break the contract but you'll have to do that to send the BERT metro there anyway. It just defies all logical transport planning and rehashes all of Brisbane transport history with buses and trains competing with each other rather than integrating and complementing to form a complete and coherent network.

Quote from: #Metro on September 20, 2024, 09:11:25 AM

Quote from: SilverChasedThere is already a free shuttle between DFO and the airport. How is this allowed but a Metro requires buying out the airtrain contract?

This is a great question. I suspect the answer is because Brisbane Airport operates the bus (BARL deed is between Airtrain and the Queensland Government) and because no fare is charged on the shuttle bus (so it's not commercial).

So the solution is for the government to pay Brisbane Airport to increase frequency of their free buses? Problem solved.
The route is quite slow, but it is fairly frequent as it is.

Quote from: #Metro on September 20, 2024, 09:46:43 AMRowBro, why is it better to run a 500 or 1000 pax train at 15 min frequency if patronage is lower versus a 150 seat articulated bus at say 5-6 minute frequencies?

Your comment seems to suggest we need capacity more than frequency, but for my own view it's the other way around.

The cost of running a train is mostly the cost of the driver and guard as far as I am aware (HTG can probably shine more light on this). The capacity is largely irrelevant if the infrastructure already exists. If the capacity is really that much of a biggie you can simply run 3 car sets on the line instead.

Any further discussion on the Doomben line please use this thread.

>>> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=287122

With QLD labor, federal labor, and QLD lnp all now backing the a BERTie expansion some version of the project is certain to occur.

My primary concern is that both parties may intend to tie it to a Chermside Toll tunnel to improve its business case and reduce opposition to that project.

We need to be increasingly clear with each other and with other stakeholders what we feel are essential project improvements.

E.g. which lines to prioritise? Where it can best connect with trains? Designs for interchanges. And highest level ROW/technology to prioritise BERTies at traffic lights.

^^ Low hanging fruit, but I would press for the 'Metro 1' route to be extended down to Rochedale and Springwood as soon as the Busway extension is completed. It just makes sense to have it cover the entirety of the SE Busway, not stop two stations short.

Quote from: nathandavid88 on September 20, 2024, 15:32:26 PM^^ Low hanging fruit, but I would press for the 'Metro 1' route to be extended down to Rochedale and Springwood as soon as the Busway extension is completed. It just makes sense to have it cover the entirety of the SE Busway, not stop two stations short.

Is it to do with frequency? There is a convenient turnaround at 8MP and limited bi-artic buses.

To support this plan is to fail all Queenslanders.

If you want to turn the SEB into light rail you have to uplift every major corridor in Brisbane (and terminate the rest / re-route them via surface streets).

While I would love to see light rail on every major corridor in Brisbane it's prohibitively expensive to do it all at once.

So I think the ultimate solution to the SEB is something like #Metro's old north-south subway idea - a parallel corridor, probably along Logan Rd and ending up along Mains Rd.

In the meantime, projects which can incrementally improve the average vehicle capacity on the busway are helpful and should be supported.

With almost 90% of trips by motor vehicle we can't afford to incrementally improve things! We tried that for 30 years and we went from 78% to 89%.

We can edesign the network to be trunk route based.  Just because we have an illegible number of bus routes today does not mean we need to keep them in the future


SEQ 2032 - Bold Transport Vision - SEQ Rail, Metro, Light Rail and BRT

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fbackontrack.org%2Fdocs%2Fjonno%2FConnectingSEQ2031BoldTMLB_SchematicMap.pdf&h=AT2jFfif7ehpxgHC5C75bqSOTfrBpCcEAT11_zNfoyIfasZGpEPfOOkI2QJdqAUsMHRBI-3fNpSOxsZfiX0yOP3d2yKx-PeboMLUXYSe8d4Za7ZksPVDXdnS-ZqL7fGZKQYg&__tn__=-UK

Agree Jonno, the minimum viable frequent bus network is about 150 bus routes within BCC LGA. Currently there are about 230.

For about 1/3 the cost of 50c fares, you could compete the frequent BUZ network in Brisbane.

Over time, as those fill up, you would then have a solid case for conversion.

Posts on the Doomben line have been moved to the appropriate thread:

> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=287923

Quote from: ozbob on September 20, 2024, 10:30:07 AM

Any further discussion on the Doomben line please use this thread.

>>> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=287122

If BERT ever did get to BNE, and it is a fuking big IF

where would passengers luggage go in a Bertie heading to BNE?

If any of you have travelled on the Melbourne Sky Buses you would have noted the special luggage areas.

Dream on fantasisers, dream on! 

Quote from: ozbob on September 21, 2024, 05:36:25 AMIf BERT ever did get to BNE, and it is a fuking big IF

where would passengers luggage go in a Bertie heading to BNE?

If any of you have travelled on the Melbourne Sky Buses you would have noted the special luggage areas.

Dream on fantasisers, dream on! 

I'm waiting for the "but bac buses..." It was just a line drawn on a map to make it be network look bigger than it actually is. Similar to comments from the council in the lead up to the election about the Northside metro is full steam ahead while being dependent on the state providing funding and infrastructure.

Have you seen the refurbed IMU160's recently?? They have been modified for non long distance running with all luggage racks removed. And on that theme QTMP will also not have any luggage racks.

Luggage fits in a train easily of course.

Bertie?  No, would have to rip half the seats out.  This is another simple reason why it is all nonsense.



image: https://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g255100-d7824850-i490461159-SkyBus-Melbourne_Victoria.html

Long time reader of this forum. For some reason I've had issues logging in for a long time, so am finally able to.

What do you think is the BCC obsession with getting 'metro' services to the airport? And on top of that, what is the obsession with having bus routes competing with so many rail services? Is it an ego thing? Do they just like to undermine the state government? Do they like to have the most passengers bragging rites? It is so strange to me.

Quote from: ilovebrisvegas on September 21, 2024, 09:09:25 AMLong time reader of this forum. For some reason I've had issues logging in for a long time, so am finally able to.

What do you think is the BCC obsession with getting 'metro' services to the airport? And on top of that, what is the obsession with having bus routes competing with so many rail services? Is it an ego thing? Do they just like to undermine the state government? Do they like to have the most passengers bragging rites? It is so strange to me .

My guess is it's mostly a funding thing. BCC gets more funding for running a bus 10km into the city than they do running a bus 2km to a train station.

That and the fact that the train frequencies on the outer lines aren't too great either which makes it more challenging to create well timed transfers.

Quote from: RowBro on September 21, 2024, 09:24:31 AM

Quote from: ilovebrisvegas on September 21, 2024, 09:09:25 AMLong time reader of this forum. For some reason I've had issues logging in for a long time, so am finally able to.

What do you think is the BCC obsession with getting 'metro' services to the airport? And on top of that, what is the obsession with having bus routes competing with so many rail services? Is it an ego thing? Do they just like to undermine the state government? Do they like to have the most passengers bragging rites? It is so strange to me .

My guess is it's mostly a funding thing. BCC gets more funding for running a bus 10km into the city than they do running a bus 2km to a train station.

That and the fact that the train frequencies on the outer lines aren't too great either which makes it more challenging to create well timed transfers.

Transfers won't help when buses are peak direction only or are peak only. And then you have routes such as the 327 avoiding railway stations in peak hours or bus routes such as the 335 having the first service arrive at the station just before 9am. Translink have no spine because they can't criticise the state for a lack of funding, the state has its own problem with lack of infrastructure which hampers how the network is run and both bcc/state use it as a political tool rather than a service. Legislation was changed when Newman got in which gave bcc back some powers and the state doesn't want to revert it back or do anything about it as they have enough on their plate and don't want to open a can of worms such as crr preventing service increases due to a lack of rollingstock uncertainty (key point to remember is that it's not due to the lack of trains running in 2017 - they can easily increase the frequency now if they want to - the problem is on CRR opening day and the potential of cutting services as a result).

Quote from: ilovebrisvegas on September 21, 2024, 09:09:25 AMLong time reader of this forum. For some reason I've had issues logging in for a long time, so am finally able to.

What do you think is the BCC obsession with getting 'metro' services to the airport? And on top of that, what is the obsession with having bus routes competing with so many rail services? Is it an ego thing? Do they just like to undermine the state government? Do they like to have the most passengers bragging rites? It is so strange to me.

Glad you are back on ilbv.  If you have any problems etc. please contact me and I can assist.

Yes, BERT to Airport is in reality very low priority if any priority at all.  There is rail, and besides, BERT extensions are best where there is no rail e.g. Capalaba and the Sunnybank extension.  Funds are precious and best allocated to improving and putting in services where there isn't that much.

The 169 trial with the bi-artics will be interesting.  I hope to get on it when it starts.   

Quote from: ozbob on September 21, 2024, 10:58:13 AM.

The 169 trial with the bi-artics will be interesting.  I hope to get on it when it starts.   

Is there meant to be an adjusted timetable for this? Boggo Road to 8MP Plains in the morning are 4 buses per hour on 169. It also says it is quicker to catch two buses (66+555) than take the 169.

I don't actually find the current buses full. Maybe I dont travel at the right time or direction. Frequency could be better, but the new buses are designed for capacity rather than frequency.

^ the 169 is a trial "Metro" route. It's not planned to have the big buses long-term. 66 and 111/160 are the routes to be replaced.