RAIL - Back On Track Forum

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1823573627926929641

Couriermail --> Brisbane 2032 Olympics: Jason Akermanis backs rebuild of Gabba $

QuoteA Lions AFL hall of famer has called on the state government to stop wasting time and fork out whatever funds are necessary to transform the Gabba into the centrepiece of the 2032 Games.

AFL great Jason Akermanis said it was time for the government to "get on with it" and set out a plan to make the Gabba a 60,000-seat Olympic stadium to provide a lasting legacy item for his former team. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1824107438578311346

Couriermail --> Private push for $6bn Northshore Olympic precinct to save taxpayer amid stadium debacle $

QuoteAn Olympic mega precinct with a stunning 60,000-seat waterfront stadium would be built on the Brisbane River in a bold $6bn proposal to solve the 2032 Games planning debacle – and it won't cost taxpayers an extra cent.

A group of globally renowned architects – including the firm behind some of the best stadiums in the world such as Los Angeles' SoFi Stadium and the Dallas Cowboys Stadium – have put forward the plan to transform Brisbane's Northshore into a one-stop Olympic precinct. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1824474924028940359

It's a beautiful design, but the location is still a concern. Victoria Park has the advantage of being central, whereas getting away from Eagle Farm is going to be a challenge and a hell of a commute for many of the southsiders, even if there is an upgraded Doomben line, CityCats and increased bus services.

Also, how many of that consortium have their fingers in pies in the Hamilton Northshore precinct? Always leaves me a little sketpical.

This is the first alternative proposal which has a legitimate chance of getting up.

Victoria park proposal will never succeed because the campaign against losing green space will make it just as toxic as the Gabba became. This option offers a chance for large urban renewal and it is well positioned for rail upgrades.

I'm still not sure things can get moving quickly enough for QSAC to come off the table but it's the first proposal with significant backing that has any realistic chance.

Is this image AI generated? There are people walking on the roof of the stadium and a high rise building mashed into it. All this for $6 billion; this is a joke!

Quote from: AJ Transport on August 17, 2024, 11:40:03 AMThis is the first alternative proposal which has a legitimate chance of getting up.

Victoria park proposal will never succeed because the campaign against losing green space will make it just as toxic as the Gabba became. This option offers a chance for large urban renewal and it is well positioned for rail upgrades.

I'm still not sure things can get moving quickly enough for QSAC to come off the table but it's the first proposal with significant backing that has any realistic chance.

I'm sure the learned people here will know better than this noob, but how long would it take to move 60K people away from a stadium like that in a single direction? Or to ask the same question a different way, how much upgrade of public transport would be enough to move that amount of people away post-event within an hour?

^ Welcome McFly!

Spot on, transport is the weak link in this plan, acknowledged in the article:

Quote... Mr Colling said transport was the only missing piece of the puzzle, with upgrades required for trains, buses, trams and ferry networks – something he thinks the government could afford, with private investors keen to pitch in and pay for the precinct. ...

Shuttle buses will not handle it, really needs rail.

QuoteIs this image AI generated? There are people walking on the roof of the stadium and a high rise building mashed into it. All this for $6 billion; this is a joke!

I wonder if the AI / Machine Learning could be used to judge the end cost and time of projects based on a big database of past projects?

Now, wouldn't that be interesting? Might pop out some unflattering answers if it were to happen?

I rather Vic Park but if they can build that at Hamilton North Shore privately, I would be happy. Yet, the main sticking point is transport. Could it be an underground metro, LRT, heavy rail or least favourable BRT.

QuoteI'm sure the learned people here will know better than this noob, but how long would it take to move 60K people away from a stadium like that in a single direction? Or to ask the same question a different way, how much upgrade of public transport would be enough to move that amount of people away post-event within an hour?

I don't think the rudeness was necessary but aside from that I think you missed my point.

My comment made no assessment of the details of the proposal. I'm very clear eyed about the political realities of Brisbane and the Olympics.

The Gabba redevelopment fell over because the campaign to save the school made it politically toxic. Neither Labor or the LNP will touch Vic park stadium proposal because they know there will be a campaign to save all green space in Vic park and it will become just as toxic. John Coates sees this too which is why he's pushed so hard for QSAC.

There are many other ways to get a new stadium but all are expensive and there isn't much spare time.

That's why I say if this group can legitimately commit to do this as a private project it's more likely to actually happen than Vic park or Gabba. Though the chances are still low Vic park and Gabba are both basically zero chance.

Quote from: AJ Transport on August 17, 2024, 17:44:15 PMI don't think the rudeness was necessary but aside from that I think you missed my point.

Apologies friend. I'm not sure why your post was quoted in mine - i wasn't replying to yours, just asking a general question regarding transport. No rudeness intended and I'll have to be more careful obviously.

But now that I re-read yours, yes there is a risk of that, although I still think it can be sold in the right way. The loss of green space can be minimised and offset in other ways. Just not before the election. Until then I think both major parties will lose the word "Olympics" from their vocab.

But I think the Gabba redevelopment fell over mainly because of the cost. The school is already on the move, so politically I don't think that's relevent. And from what I've heard John Coates wanted a legacy for athletics (which did't happen in Sydney) which was a big part of his push.

Both cricket and AFL will much prefer being closer to the city if push comes to shove, but both will take what they can get.

Update:  https://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/brisbane-olympics-and-paralympics-2032/private-push-for-6bn-northshore-olympic-precinct-to-save-taxpayer-amid-stadium-debacle/news-story/2fe91b5849577df9e41f4c691329f8ed

Quote... Plans for a bold Olympic mega precinct with a stunning 60,000-seat waterfront stadium have been all but shut down by state government Minister Di Farmer. ...

 ... Ms Farmer said on Saturday the government wanted to own its Olympic stadium and had already issued tenders for QSAC upgrades and the Hamilton athletes village.

"We are already investing heavily in the Northshore area, we've already got dwellings there, we have already put out a proposal and tender for the athletes village," she said.

"The government is always interested in private investment ... but I think that the die has been set.

"We want to move forward." ...

Quote from: ozbob on August 17, 2024, 13:10:38 PM^ Welcome McFly!

Spot on, transport is the weak link in this plan, acknowledged in the article:

Quote... Mr Colling said transport was the only missing piece of the puzzle, with upgrades required for trains, buses, trams and ferry networks – something he thinks the government could afford, with private investors keen to pitch in and pay for the precinct. ...

Shuttle buses will not handle it, really needs rail.

I'd say this has quite a good chance under a change in government.

LNP promised 100 day review will politically need to produce something different, yet they've promised not to spend anymore and also don't support Vic Park. Crisafulli has also said the focus should be on infrastructure legacy, like transport...

Enter this proposal - private sector funded precinct (no extra venue spend by govt ✅️), new transport infrastructure (infrastructure legacy✅️) and delivers much better outcome than QSAC (result for the 100 day review ✅️).

I've always wondered why Hamilton wasn't looked at more seriously. Any housing loss could be offset by high density at a demolished Gabba (maximising use of the CRR and busway investments there).

Quote from: McFly on August 17, 2024, 19:06:55 PMBut I think the Gabba redevelopment fell over mainly because of the cost. The school is already on the move, so politically I don't think that's relevant. And from what I've heard John Coates wanted a legacy for athletics (which didn't happen in Sydney) which was a big part of his push.

Is it confirmed that the East Brisbane State School will be moving?  If so, then why isn't the focus back on rebuilding The Gabba?

If Coates' wanted an athletics legacy for Queensland, then hosting the biggest Olympics events at a small temporary venue was maybe not a good idea.

Quote from: GonzoFonzie on August 17, 2024, 22:46:00 PM

Quote from: McFly on August 17, 2024, 19:06:55 PMBut I think the Gabba redevelopment fell over mainly because of the cost. The school is already on the move, so politically I don't think that's relevant. And from what I've heard John Coates wanted a legacy for athletics (which didn't happen in Sydney) which was a big part of his push.

Is it confirmed that the East Brisbane State School will be moving?  If so, then why isn't the focus back on rebuilding The Gabba?

If Coates' wanted an athletics legacy for Queensland, then hosting the biggest Olympics events at a small temporary venue was maybe not a good idea.

Nothings confirmed yet for the school or what the scope of works for Gabba is yet (under Labor's current plan).

QuoteFollowing the independent review of the Brisbane 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Master Plan, the Department of State Development and Infrastructure (DSDI) has informed the Department of Education (the department) that East Brisbane State School will not be required to relocate at the start of the 2026 school year.

The department will work with DSDI to understand any future proposals for the Gabba and what this means for East Brisbane State School.

The department will continue to consult with the staff and communities of the East Brisbane State School.

https://alt-qed.qed.qld.gov.au/programs-initiatives/department/building-education/news/east-brisbane-state-school-consultation

Couriermail --> Business leaders, sporting identities back proposed Olympic precinct $

QuoteTwo of the state's top businessmen have joined leading sports stars in backing a bold plan for a privately-funded Olympic stadium on the Brisbane River as part of a $6bn mega precinct.

Events king Harvey Lister and Howard Smith Wharves boss Luke Fraser have applauded the proposal for a new 60,000-seat waterfront stadium on the Northshore site between Hamilton and Eagle Farm.

Despite the groundswell of support the government, however, has confirmed it quietly started the tender process for QSAC last week. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1824802115359068193

https://x.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1824718929991741721

Quote from: ozbob on August 17, 2024, 23:33:33 PMThe alliance claims the project could be privately-funded.

A similar model was used to build Perth's Optus Stadium, with the government there contributing 60 per cent of the funds, while the remainder was paid for by the Westadium Consortium.

Mr Lister, whose company ASM Global manages more than 350 venues worldwide including Suncorp Stadium, the Brisbane Convention and Exhibition Centre and Boondall Entertainment Centre, said it was an exciting proposal.

"It's a great example of a fantastic vision by architects," he said. "The thing we keep hearing from people in South East Queensland is that they're just worried they're going to be embarrassed (by the 2032 Olympic venues).

Yesterday, it was supposed to funded fully by this mysterious 'alliance', and today they are wanting a PPP (public-private-partnership)?

Meanwhile no update from ASM Global on the progress on their Brisbane Live Arena or what will be happening with Boondal.

https://x.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1824727014231904486

The mention of canals in the article seems to go against the continually discussed concept of a 'clean' Brisbane River, at least in environmental terms.

The elevated footpath to Doomben Station also seems unnecessary to me. It will be very windy this close to both the river and Moreton Bay, as well as the general unpleasantness during planning and operation. It would be a far better legacy to have a pedestrian-first space right next to the station, not above it.

Quote from: GonzoFonzie on August 17, 2024, 22:46:00 PMIs it confirmed that the East Brisbane State School will be moving?  If so, then why isn't the focus back on rebuilding The Gabba?

From a few contacts in government last I heard, they are still moving to Coorparoo. I think the Gabba is dead due to the site constraints. The electrical infrastructure is a mess too and will take a bit of work to fix. Much cheaper to build on a greenfield site than knock something down and rebuild or refurbish existing facilities.

The issue not yet mentioned with Hamilton is the light issue. Brisbane Lions had gone partway down the road with relocating their HQ to Eagle Farm, but Govt put the kybosh on it due to lighting concerns with respect to the airport. That's why they switched back to Springfield. Hamilton Northshore is a little further removed, but I wonder if it's far away enough not to draw the same issues.

Quote from: ozbob on August 18, 2024, 13:09:28 PMhttps://x.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1824727014231904486

It looks horrendous IMO.

There's also no way it's happening without either a huge injection of public money, or mothballing other public facilities to prop it up (yikes).

About as much thought as Victoria Park: looks flashy in the architects' portfolio, whether it's realistic is not actually relevant.

Brisbanetimes --> Premier not sold on ambitious new Brisbane stadium pitch $

QuoteQueensland Premier Steven Miles has pushed back against the claim that a new $6 billion, 60,000-seat stadium to anchor the 2032 Games could be funded with no, or little, public money.

The idea, from a consortium calling themselves the Brisbane Design Alliance and including the architects behind the SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles, was announced on Saturday. ...

... Despite suggestions that taxpayers would incur no cost for the stadium, the alliance is hoping the state would offer up the 150-hectare site between Hamilton and Eagle Farm, and also upgrade transport links. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1825188231488704517

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1825190609910644881

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1825555648551219375

Couriermail --> $2b-plus price tag for proposed Northshore 2032 Games precinct land at Hamilton $

QuoteA snapshot of mega riverfront land sales have indicated the price tag that a 150ha site at Hamilton, proposed for a $6bn precinct for the 2032 Games, would command if it were on the market.

Recent mega riverfront land sales indicate a 150ha Hamilton site proposed for a visionary 2032 Games precinct would be worth well over $2 billion, with the Government being called on by the idea's backers to buy half of it. ... 

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1825920705533456433

Couriermail --> Minister reveals why Qld isn't considering a new stadium $

QuoteIt's been a hot topic for months. Now State Development Minister Grace Grace has revealed why existing proposals for a new stadium ahead of the 2032 Olympics wouldn't work.

The lack of a warm-up athletics track for the 2032 Olympic Games is preventing the government from seriously considering industry plans for a major new stadium, State Development Minister Grace Grace has revealed. ...

Could it get any more embarrassing?

Quote from: ozbob on August 25, 2024, 16:20:09 PMCouriermail --> Minister reveals why Qld isn't considering a new stadium $

QuoteIt's been a hot topic for months. Now State Development Minister Grace Grace has revealed why existing proposals for a new stadium ahead of the 2032 Olympics wouldn't work.

The lack of a warm-up athletics track for the 2032 Olympic Games is preventing the government from seriously considering industry plans for a major new stadium, State Development Minister Grace Grace has revealed. ...

That's a joke right? The Gabba plan required a temporary warm up track at a (sort of) nearby park...are they saying that was never feasible?

From what I understand of the private proposal for Hamilton, much of the broader development of the 150ha comes post 2032 - so there'd be plenty of space close by for a warm up track.

It wouldn't be in any of the proposals because it's a purely operational requirement for the Olympics. It's of no interest to the private interests and of no legacy value. So it would need to be covered in the Olympics operational budget. Probably why Coates likes QSAC too - makes the organising committee budget look better while the state wastes a billion on concrete slabs for temporary seating.

You cancelling the Gabba rebuild was your decision over a school, not the location of a warm-up track.

Do they really need a warm-up track in proximity to the venue?

Can't they warm-up inside the venue? If not, build a warm-up track at Hamiltion next to the Athletes Village then.

Couriermail --> Editorial: Pollies take us for mugs in stadium farce $

QuoteThis risk-averse state government is taking Queenslanders for mugs with its new excuses about why Brisbane can't have a world-class round stadium.

The disingenuousness is actually breathtaking. Having shot down every proposal from industry leaders calling for a new stadium – and instead endorsing the Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre idea that has little support – the government is now relying on dubious technicalities to stifle growing calls for a sporting legacy from 2032. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1827725073731792942

In fairness the warm up track was a key source of building community opposition to the Gabba rebuild. The plan was to use Raymond park for the warm-up track but some opponents/campaigners realised it would require property resumption to match usual international size. Eventually the Palaszczuk government admitted it would require property resumption. After more opposition the government claimed they could redesign a smaller warm up track with no property resumption. But protests continued to save Raymond park anyway.

It's a key strength of the QSAC option and one of several reasons that the Vic park option needs to be larger than is claimed.

But there was an independent review that looked at all those issues and concluded Vic Park as the best option.

Couriermail --> Brisbane 2032 Olympics: Lord Mayor's warning over wasted days $

QuoteBrisbane's Olympic Games head start has slipped through its fingers and the city must move quickly to avoid squandering the last chance to create a legacy from the global event, Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner says.

In a keynote address to the Committee for Brisbane's lunch on Wednesday, Mr Schrinner drew gasps when he noted it had been 1135 days since Queensland won the 2032 Games.

He argued the state government's decision-making process had been "off the rails".

"That's quite a shocking figure to think that we had the longest period of time that any city has been given a head start and some of that has slipped through our fingers," he said. ...

Couriermail --> Brisbane 2032 Olympics: David Crisafulli hints LNP will ditch QSAC, embrace Gabba $

QuoteOpposition Leader David Crisafulli has given his strongest signal Labor's plan for QSAC to be the centrepiece of the Brisbane 2032 Olympics will be dead if the LNP wins government.

Only Premier Steven Miles thinks building a multimillion-dollar temporary Olympic stadium "in the middle of the scrub" at QSAC is a good idea, Opposition Leader David Crisafulli has declared.

It is the strongest sign Mr Miles's plan to use the Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre for athletics at the Brisbane 2032 Olympics would be on the chopping block if the LNP won the October state election as expected. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1829177549689368917

InQueensland --> Power Games: $1.5 billion of 'temporary stands in the bush' won't cut it, says Crisafulli

QuoteThe Miles government hoped to have a signed and sealed plan to deliver a major upgrade to the ageing Queensland Sports and Athletics Centre (QSAC) for the Games.

However, it may not come to fruition after the opposition leader poured cold water on the proposal. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1829353938040299689

Quote from: GonzoFonzie on August 25, 2024, 21:12:04 PMYou cancelling the Gabba rebuild was your decision over a school, not the location of a warm-up track.

Do they really need a warm-up track in proximity to the venue?

Can't they warm-up inside the venue? If not, build a warm-up track at Hamiltion next to the Athletes Village then.

That's the thing.  To hold an Olympic games, a warm up track is absolutely needed within walking distance of the stadium.  The stadium also needs to have many dressing rooms (unless you think they might be able to get changed on the field itself too).  They need an athletes gym.  They need media rooms.  They need administration rooms.  They need medical rooms.  They need storage areas for all sorts of athletic equipment (like javelins, pole vault poles, crash mats, hurdles etc. etc).  They need technical space for the broadcast partner.  They need cable runs, catwalks and other access arrangements for broadcasters that are separate from public and athlete areas.  They need kitchens.  They need loading docks.  They need a secure entry for athletes and secure corridors so that athletes and their entourage can move around the stadium apart from the general public.  They need a way of getting food and drink into the bars and food outlets during an event (at current everything comes in before and once it's gone, it's gone).  They need proper loading docks.

The Gabba as it currently exists has almost none of this.  Moreover, since the lowest seating tier at the Gabba is built directly on the dirt, there is no undercroft where any of this stuff might be inserted.  The Gabba rebuild was cancelled because it's list of shortcomings is incredibly long, and it's so hemmed in by development that these shortcomings can only be partially addressed, and even then, only with a complete rebuild at enormous cost.  Nobody in a position of power gives a hoot about the school.

It isn't viable to simply shrug off this almost complete lack of amenities at the stadium.  Sure, an Olympics staged at QSAC would feel like a school carnival.  But an Olympics staged at a stadium lacking most of the required amenities would actually be a school carnival.

^ OK, but the Gabba is going to have to be rebuilt at enormous cost anyway. There's no world where it just gets knocked down.

Your points may be valid, but QSAC has been spun as a cost thing, and that's dishonest. If QSAC has the required footprint for the Olympics, then cool. But all-in, it's going to cost more than the alternatives because Brisbane still needs that new round stadium. Calling it: QSAC will keep the "temporary" stands, be the backup stadium for a few years during construction, and then be left to rot. So basically, the exact same trajectory as last time.