RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Brisbanetimes --> Victoria Park an Olympic hurdle as Coates, mayors, architect grilled on Games $

QuoteAustralian Olympic supremo John Coates says if Brisbane were to build a new Victoria Park stadium, it should not be considered a Games-related cost.

Coates made the comments at a Senate inquiry in Brisbane on Wednesday, where a leading architect revealed 2032's main Olympic venues could come in almost $700 million cheaper if they were all in Victoria Park, under a plan that would also give the city a permanent aquatic centre.

Under current plans, confirmed by former lord mayor Graham Quirk's review of Olympic venues, the to-be-built Brisbane Arena would host swimming in a drop-in pool.

Both the Labor government and the LNP opposition have rejected calls for a new stadium, including at Victoria Park. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1780642724703801831

ABC News --> Queensland government introduces independent Olympics authority bill as senate review of 2032 Games sits in Brisbane

QuoteQueensland has moved one step closer to having an independent delivery authority for the Brisbane Olympic and Paralympic Games.

Legislation for the independent body was tabled in Queensland parliament on Wednesday.

The moves follows a key recommendation in a $717,000 report from Deloitte on "governance arrangements" for the 2032 Games. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1780733562431692843

     

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1780738926724141118

The transcript for the Senate Inquiry 'Australia's preparedness to host Commonwealth, Olympic and Paralympic Games' in Brisbane 17th May 2024 will appear here when available >

https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Rural_and_Regional_Affairs_and_Transport/PreparednessforGames/Public_Hearings

Couriermail --> Brisbane 2032 Games preparation lagging badly, says senator $

QuoteA federal inquiry has failed to find any evidence of the state government having completed any real work in preparation for the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games, according to key senators leading the probe.

Nationals senator Bridget McKenzie said the evidence at the inquiry into Australia's preparedness to host the Games so far suggested the only planning completed had been "half-arsed and half-baked".

"From the paperwork we've seen, there's no feasibility studies, there's no business cases, there's no funding agreements, there's no sod turning," Senator McKenzie said.

"Nothing has been done. There's been a lot of buck passing and no building." ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1780740559076040875

Is there a reason nobody has suggested the Toombul Shopping Centre site for a stadium? Plenty big enough, has a train station serving most lines close by, reasonably central, not losing any parkland or houses, close to the airport etc. Sure it floods, but so does Lang Park - a stadium is probably pretty good use of occasionally flood-prone land.

QuoteSure it floods, but so does Lang Park

Bad practice to repeat mistakes.

I think plain old sporting fields with minimal infrastructure are fine to go on flood plains, but a "proper" stadium shouldn't.

Quote from: OzGamer on April 18, 2024, 10:37:52 AMIs there a reason nobody has suggested the Toombul Shopping Centre site for a stadium? Plenty big enough, has a train station serving most lines close by, reasonably central, not losing any parkland or houses, close to the airport etc. Sure it floods, but so does Lang Park - a stadium is probably pretty good use of occasionally flood-prone land.

It's probably some simple excuse like 'the land is privately owned' or some such. Putting that aside, my initial concern is the site is not level beyond the profile of the shopping centre and slopes down to Kedron Brook, meaning entry areas and secondary buildings probably necessitate a lot of building up the site. That could in turn impact the drainage properties of the  Kedron Brook, perhaps making the area even more flood prone. But no-one in a decision making position has probably even thought about it as it seems only state owned locations have been considered thus far.

I doubt anybody in the State Government is lining up to pay a big insto property fund like Mirvac for a big site with numerous hairs on it, when they have public land available which is similarly hairy.

(It would mean a decent upgrade for Toombul station at least.)

In addition to the flooding concerns and ownership concerns, I don't think the site at Toombul is big enough.

This is by no means a great way of doing things, but a quick cut and paste of Sydney's Olympic stadium over the site at the same zoom level on Google maps doesn't look promising



And for attention, the same thing done to the BEC carpark site at Boondall:



Again I'm not saying this is a particularly accurate way of doing things 
Nor do I think either spot is ideal, but to me Boondall is the better spot than Toombul at least. It could be worth being looked into if a government was interested. I am keen to see what the Miles' government response to this enquiry is, because right now ALL stadium options seem bad in their own way shape or form.

Quote from: Gazza on April 18, 2024, 10:53:45 AM

QuoteSure it floods, but so does Lang Park

Bad practice to repeat mistakes.

I think plain old sporting fields with minimal infrastructure are fine to go on flood plains, but a "proper" stadium shouldn't.

The thing is, a stadium can be designed around flooding. If electrical and other infrastructure are slightly raised you could basically just let the field flood once every 10-20 years and it wouldn't matter that much. Lang Park didn't seem to badly affected by being a lake for a couple of days.

Quote from: SurfRail on April 18, 2024, 11:47:25 AMI doubt anybody in the State Government is lining up to pay a big insto property fund like Mirvac for a big site with numerous hairs on it, when they have public land available which is similarly hairy.

(It would mean a decent upgrade for Toombul station at least.)

The thing is, I don't think it does have that many hairs on it. The flooding issue can be managed and the accessibility and location are actually pretty excellent.

Surely the cost of the land can't be that high given it's constraints. Flooding is much worse for residential or retail than it is for a stadium.

Quote from: timh on April 18, 2024, 12:06:27 PMIn addition to the flooding concerns and ownership concerns, I don't think the site at Toombul is big enough.

This is by no means a great way of doing things, but a quick cut and paste of Sydney's Olympic stadium over the site at the same zoom level on Google maps doesn't look promising

I don't think anyone's planning a stadium that big. They're talking about more like 55,000 rather than 80,000, so it wouldn't have that large a footprint. Also, it can run east-west rather than north-south.

QuoteNor do I think either spot is ideal, but to me Boondall is the better spot than Toombul at least.

Everyone hates Boondall as a location, which is why the BEC is being replaced by Brisbane Live. It's further out that QSAC.

There's a spot I've located that is currently housing Energex with old brutalist style buildings on Bowen Bridge Road near the RBWH.  Could potentially consider that spot, Energex would need to move, along with realigning the bikeway and possibly moving the Parkour park into Victoria Park itself, the stadium could sit partially over the ICB and railway (easier to build over that sort of infrastructure than say Roma Street with the now moved planned Entertainment Centre site), would also have access to Exhibition station, which would make it a far bigger event style railway station than simply the Ekka and the odd event outside of the Ekka. 

There's a heritage listed substation on the site, but could easily be avoided given the site, it also would have minimal impact on Victoria Park, especially given that part wouldn't be attractive to keep anyway given it's next to major roads and a railway.  The site's a little constrained, but not as much as the Gabba is currently.

Quote from: STB on April 18, 2024, 12:57:49 PMThere's a spot I've located that is currently housing Energex with old brutalist style buildings on Bowen Bridge Road near the RBWH.  Could potentially consider that spot, Energex would need to move, along with realigning the bikeway and possibly moving the Parkour park into Victoria Park itself, the stadium could sit partially over the ICB and railway (easier to build over that sort of infrastructure than say Roma Street with the now moved planned Entertainment Centre site), would also have access to Exhibition station, which would make it a far bigger event style railway station than simply the Ekka and the odd event outside of the Ekka. 

There's a heritage listed substation on the site, but could easily be avoided given the site, it also would have minimal impact on Victoria Park, especially given that part wouldn't be attractive to keep anyway given it's next to major roads and a railway.  The site's a little constrained, but not as much as the Gabba is currently.

If you're talking about the site at the corner of Bowen Bridge Road and Gregory Terrace, that's the site that Jonno proposed. It fits nicely on the site and is indeed close to busway stations and Ekka train station, but the site is really difficult considering I think the footprint would be too large to fit in between Gregory Terrace and the ICB, so you'd end up building over the top of one of the railway line or one of the roads. Then we're back to the same problem we had at the Gabba where engineering challenges make costs too high.

They've already baulked at the cost of a new stadium. Why would they choose a site that is more expensive to build on due to the site conditions?

But didn't the Architect say that the 3.4 billion is for 3 stadiums/arena all suspended over the rail line and road.  We should ask for a single stadium to be costed.

Quote from: OzGamer on April 18, 2024, 12:35:52 PM

Quote from: SurfRail on April 18, 2024, 11:47:25 AMI doubt anybody in the State Government is lining up to pay a big insto property fund like Mirvac for a big site with numerous hairs on it, when they have public land available which is similarly hairy.

(It would mean a decent upgrade for Toombul station at least.)

The thing is, I don't think it does have that many hairs on it. The flooding issue can be managed and the accessibility and location are actually pretty excellent.

Surely the cost of the land can't be that high given it's constraints. Flooding is much worse for residential or retail than it is for a stadium.

Quite possibly correct on both counts, but having to pay anything for the site would put it out of contention realistically.

Even if it cost $500M less to build? How can that make any sense?

I would have thought Vic park would have been one of the cheapest options regardless, since its fairly vacant.

Anything that involves elevating over floodplains or existing road or rail is just escalating the cost.

I don't understand the fixation with trying to build a giant stadium/venue over active rail lines, main roads, live railway stations.

Yes, stadium in Victoria Park will occupy some open space but there will still be plenty of park left over.

Quote from: #Metro on April 18, 2024, 16:56:26 PMI don't understand the fixation with trying to build a giant stadium/venue over active rail lines, main roads, live railway stations.

Yes, stadium in Victoria Park will occupy some open space but there will still be plenty of park left over.

I guess people are concerned for a few reasons, one, is that it could damage the overall amenity of the park, the park is meant to be an escape from the hustle and bustle and provide some peace and quiet from day to day life, having a stadium built in the park can cause noise impacts, especially during sporting and concert events.  Another reason could be that people are worried that it's a slippery slope, that if you allow development in the park, it could lead to influencing future decisions about further development in and around the park, with the argument that well, we built a stadium in the park, so surely we can start building some units or shops to support the stadium.

Given that Victoria Park has been promised to be given back to the public after being used as a golf course for many years, the public has an expectation that the park will be protected from now on and into the future - and we do need more greenspace to supplement what we have already with the growing population.  It also provides a bit of a buffer between the city and Kelvin Grove/Herston - providing some sort of urban separation.

There are options that involve very little of the Park and don't appear to cost 3.4 billion!!

QuoteI guess people are concerned for a few reasons, one, is that it could damage the overall amenity of the park.

What's the definition of amenity being used here? A stadium hosting the Olympics would have far greater amenity plus there's plenty of park left over.

No stadium/arena should ever be located in the suburbs ever again. Inner city only and near rail. NOT Boondall.

Let's wake up and stop playing politics.

Couriermail --> Opinion: Time to send home the clowns and get busy with Games $

QuoteThree years on, we still do not know whether the Queensland government will put on a successful Olympics, but they have put on a pretty good circus, writes Matt Canavan.

Three years ago the Queensland and Australian governments were negotiating to fund the venues needed for the 2032 Olympics. The promise had been that this Olympics would use as many existing venues as possible so it did not cost a bomb.

The Queensland government had sent a list of projects to Canberra and all had almost been agreed.

Then one Sunday, the media contacted the then federal sport minister Richard Colbeck for his views on then premier Annastacia Palaszczuk's plans to use a rebuilt Gabba as the main Olympics stadium.

It was news to Canberra. The Queensland government gave them a week to respond. As Senator Colbeck described, the federal government had been bushwhacked. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1780991547191996838

Quote from: OzGamer on April 18, 2024, 15:33:35 PMEven if it cost $500M less to build? How can that make any sense?

If.

The main stadiums are almost never in the city centre. The most successful stadium projects are outside of the city centre where land costs are lower, they are colocated with transport, and they have good urban redevelopment take place around them.

QuoteWhat's the definition of amenity being used here? A stadium hosting the Olympics would have far greater amenity plus there's plenty of park left over.

I guess a park means nature and open space first and foremost and some people dont give a sh%t about major sporting events.
For some people, a few extra hectares of grass and trees they can freely use is considered more amenable to them.
Not saying they are right or wrong.

If its being occupied by a large bulky building 40m high and 250m wide then that's a pretty big chunky thing to have dwarfing everything, and you cant really use it on non game days as a member of the public and some people might prefer to have the largest area of parkland possible free of large manmade structures.

Sort of like how Kings Park in Perth is. Just a huge area of nature:

Couriermail --> Steven Miles says Mike Kaiser likely ordered QSAC shadow review $

QuotePremier Steven Miles says it was "probably" his director-general Mike Kaiser who asked for an investigation into using the Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre for the 2032 Games at the same time former lord mayor Graham Quirk was conducting his independent review.

Mr Miles made the revelation on Thursday after a federal Senate inquiry was told his government embarked on a "shadow review" while the former Brisbane Lord Mayor's independent assessment of games venues – ordered by the Premier – was still under way. ...

Quote from: AJ Transport on April 19, 2024, 10:33:37 AMThe main stadiums are almost never in the city centre. The most successful stadium projects are outside of the city centre where land costs are lower, they are colocated with transport, and they have good urban redevelopment take place around them.

Definitely disagree.

Where are the best stadiums in Australia?

• Lang Park/Suncorp - Milton
• SFS/Allianz - Moore Park
• Stadium Australia/Accor - "Sydney Olympic Park" (previously Lidcombe)
• MCG - East Melbourne
• Docklands/Marvel - Docklands
• Melbourne Rectangular Stadium/AAMI - Melbourne
• Adelaide Oval - North Adelaide
• Perth Stadium/Optus - Burswood
• Townsville Stadium/QCB - Railway Estate

With the exception of Stadium Australia, all of these are quite close to the city centres, not way out in the suburbs like QSAC and BEC. Having been to Stadium Australia a couple of times for State of Origin matches, I'm not even sure it deserves to be on this list.

Most of the Olympic stadiums from the last 30 years have been a bit further out, I will add.

1996 Georgia - Center Parc Stadium (approx 3km from Downtown Atlanta)
2000 Sydney - Accor Stadium (approx 18km from Sydney CBD)
2004 Athens - Athens Olympic Stadium (approx 10km from Syntagma Square, arguably the core of Athens' CBD)
2008 Beijing - National Stadium (approx 16km from Beijing Central Business district, although it really depends where you consider Beijing's urban core to be)
2012 London - London stadium (approx 8km from City of London, although again depends where you consider centre of London to be. Might consider it to be Canary Wharf these days)
2016 Rio - Estadio Nilton Santos (approx 14km from Centro)
2021 Tokyo - Japan National Stadium (approx 3km to either Shinjuku or Shibuya central areas)

Gabba would be approx 3km from CBD
Vic Park location proposed by Archipelago would be approx 3km from CBD
QSAC would be approx 12km from CBD
BEC site is approx 17km from CBD
Toombul site is approx 9km from CBD

Boondall would push the stadium out into the suburbs further than any games in recent memory
(Beijing is pretty dense everywhere within the 4th ring road really. National stadium is just outside 4th ring road so while it's not "Central" it's still fairly urban)
QSAC is within the sort of radius of stadia like Athens or Rio, and if you look at the urban density around those stadia, Athens especially is getting a bit more "suburban" there, while Rio is still pretty dense. Athens was a pretty financially poor games though IIRC (as was Rio).

Mind you, ALL of the above stadia, with the noteable exception of Atlanta (classic 'Murica) have rail access.

I'm not trying to push for any idea here. It's just worth noting that with "Olympic" stadiums, they have tended to not be super central to the actual downtown core of the city for the last 20 years, with the exception of Atlanta and Tokyo (although the Atlanta one is just outside the downtown and not exactly very pedestrian friendly).

Although, this has of course been a part of the problem of creating white elephants. Hence why this whole "new norm" approach has been taken. These things are expensive and large space like that near downtown cores is at a premium (especially in the last 30 years). Hence why I've said that currently none of the ideas seem particularly good.

There's plenty of park left over and nearby.

I think those with a view that anything over 0% building footprint is unacceptable are being uncompromising and have structured their argument to be a deliberate blocker.

And there is no general universal principle that parks 'should' be free of buildings or facilities. Lots of parks have these.

The land IS there and available, plus the PT options are very good. Rail access could be added to Victoria Park by adding a station to the existing line at Spring Hill.

Bottom line nobody is going to get 100% of what they want, option is very divided about precisely where the stadium should be.

Quote from: achiruel on April 19, 2024, 11:40:54 AM

Quote from: AJ Transport on April 19, 2024, 10:33:37 AMThe main stadiums are almost never in the city centre. The most successful stadium projects are outside of the city centre where land costs are lower, they are colocated with transport, and they have good urban redevelopment take place around them.

Definitely disagree.

Where are the best stadiums in Australia?

• Lang Park/Suncorp - Milton
• SFS/Allianz - Moore Park
• Stadium Australia/Accor - "Sydney Olympic Park" (previously Lidcombe)
• MCG - East Melbourne
• Docklands/Marvel - Docklands
• Melbourne Rectangular Stadium/AAMI - Melbourne
• Adelaide Oval - North Adelaide
• Perth Stadium/Optus - Burswood
• Townsville Stadium/QCB - Railway Estate

With the exception of Stadium Australia, all of these are quite close to the city centres, not way out in the suburbs like QSAC and BEC. Having been to Stadium Australia a couple of times for State of Origin matches, I'm not even sure it deserves to be on this list.

Some of the best of these are legacy sites like the Gabba, established as sporting precincts long ago and upgraded in situ. In developing new stadiums there are large costs, technical issues, and community issues that mean what can be achieved in each city varies. But internationally these are exceptions.

Paris, London, LA, Beijing, Sydney, Athens, Rio were all Olympics with main stadiums away from the cbd/urban core but colocated with transport.

Most fifa world cups utilise main stadiums away from the city centre. Certainly true of Korea/japan, Germany, South Africa.

In most European cities club sporting stadiums have been spread through the city. Some excellent redevelopments in places like London have resulted in nicely developed areas that have life even outside of game times. A major step that Homebush is still not fully achieving decades later.



I'm not saying city centre stadiums are bad but Brisbane doesn't have excellent sites to do it quickly, they all require a lot of negotiation and other work to provide for concessions (build a new school or buy other land for parkland). I am saying that suburban stadiums are very common around the world and can be excellent. Good long term planning is needed for good stadium precincts whether they are in the city or the suburbs.



I think one day the Gabba redevelopment will occur long after the Olympics if the state can buy up much more land around it, build a new school, build thousands of new homes and involve a lot of private investment. But neither the Gabba or Victoria park will happen for the Olympics.

Brisbanetimes --> Govt has 'eroded' Brisbane's 11-year Olympic runway: Paris '24 and LA '28 consultant $

QuoteA consultant to the Paris 2024 and Los Angeles 2028 Games says Brisbane's advantage from a 11-year lead time to the 2032 Olympics has been "eroded" by the lack of an independent delivery authority.

But Arcadis global cities director John Batten, visiting Brisbane on Friday, said the past three years had not been a total waste, and there was time to get it right.

"I've seen many Games delivered in seven years from scratch, so no, the answer is no," he said, when asked whether Brisbane had cause to worry.

Brisbane's Olympic planning has been beset by indecision and captain's calls, such as former premier Annastacia Palaszczuk's unilateral 2021 announcement of a Gabba rebuild and last month's move by her successor to instead have the main Olympic stadium at the Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre. ...

Quote from: ozbob on April 20, 2024, 03:57:57 AMBrisbanetimes --> Govt has 'eroded' Brisbane's 11-year Olympic runway: Paris '24 and LA '28 consultant $

QuoteA consultant to the Paris 2024 and Los Angeles 2028 Games says Brisbane's advantage from a 11-year lead time to the 2032 Olympics has been "eroded" by the lack of an independent delivery authority.

But Arcadis global cities director John Batten, visiting Brisbane on Friday, said the past three years had not been a total waste, and there was time to get it right.

"I've seen many Games delivered in seven years from scratch, so no, the answer is no," he said, when asked whether Brisbane had cause to worry.

Brisbane's Olympic planning has been beset by indecision and captain's calls, such as former premier Annastacia Palaszczuk's unilateral 2021 announcement of a Gabba rebuild and last month's move by her successor to instead have the main Olympic stadium at the Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre. ...

The 11 year horizon should have meant we had the most transformative infrastructure plan for the Olympics possible - nothing delivered simply because of the games and instead all connected to meeting the needs that would exist in a hugely growing region and state regardless of the Olympics. And across sport (elite and community), social (housing, parkland etc) - and of course transport!

The 2018 stadiums task force report should have been catalyst the for starting planning and community discussion about the future of the Gabba. There would have been the time then to really have all options on the table, and have it separated from the Olympics in the community's mind (and therefore in the politicians too). Hosting the Olympics could have then been a great launch party for whatever was built as the Gabba 2.0 but not seen as the sole reason for building it.

Instead of any of that, the legacy we're going to get is the world's best experience in assembling temporary seating and planning mass event shuttle bus services...

The crux of this problem is that the planning in this state is stuck in the 1970's so any planning is done with that mind set. 

They are claiming a duplicating freeway as Olympic Infrastructure Says it all

Here is a roughy for you ...

Brighton Homes Arena Springfield

https://www.austadiums.com/stadiums/springfield-central-stadium

Right next to Springfield Central railway station.

"Springfield Central Stadium will be used for the Brisbane 2032 Olympic Games, with the Modern Pentathlon to be staged at the venue. In bid documents and videos, the venue had been referred to as Ipswich Stadium. It was also initially referred to as 'The Reserve Community Arena' by the Brisbane Lions before the naming-rights sponsorship with Brighton Homes was announced."



image: https://www.ipswichfirst.com.au/brighton-homes-arena-half-the-cost-of-rna-to-host-brisbane-lions/

Quote from: Cleveland Line on April 20, 2024, 08:18:08 AMA consultant to the Paris 2024 and Los Angeles 2028 Games says Brisbane's advantage from a 11-year lead time to the 2032 Olympics has been "eroded" by the lack of an independent delivery authority.

But Arcadis global cities director John Batten, visiting Brisbane on Friday, said the past three years had not been a total waste, and there was time to get it right.

The very same Arcadis that was commissioned by Archipelago to do a feasibility study for the Victoria Park proposal that was costed at $3.4 billion?

Explains why they not consultants for the 2032 Games.

I have never heard of an architect firm spending money on an engineering report for one of their own drawings, just for it to show up in Quirk's 60 day review as the preferred option.

Quote from: #Metro on April 19, 2024, 13:14:57 PMThere's plenty of park left over and nearby.

I think those with a view that anything over 0% building footprint is unacceptable are being uncompromising and have structured their argument to be a deliberate blocker.

And there is no general universal principle that parks 'should' be free of buildings or facilities. Lots of parks have these.

The land IS there and available, plus the PT options are very good. Rail access could be added to Victoria Park by adding a station to the existing line at Spring Hill.

Bottom line nobody is going to get 100% of what they want, option is very divided about precisely where the stadium should be.

I think you're absolutely right that compromise will be necessary for anything to get done.

But I do share the opinion that a Vic Park stadium would incentivise further development of the park into an entertainment precinct. It wouldn't be long until more and more of the park is taken over by pubs, restaurants, hotels, etc because the presence of the stadium is a natural incentive.