RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Wow, can The Queensland Government f^ck these Olympics anymore even if tried harder?

This is an absolute embarrassment for our Country, State and City. Invite the world in and send them to the backwater known as QSAC while us the mug taxpayer fork out $1.6 BILLION on a stadium that will then not be used post olympics (other than athletics with small crowds) and the occasions concert.

At least the Gabba upgrade was providing a lasting legacy that is used most weeks and is already close to lots of amenity.

Bring on the election.

Quote from: Jonno on March 19, 2024, 09:29:52 AMI think the problem with the "Vic Park Option" is that there is only the drawings by Archipelago as a guide and in those drawings the Stadium wipes out most of Vic Park. It is poorly located transport wise so not really an option.  There are options to the East end of the park that minimise Vic Park impact, 300-400m to Train Station (same line a CRR) + busway in support and walkable to RNA/Valley and the City as well.  I can't see this costing $3.4B.

Using the Archipelago drawing a major part of the Stadium is not even in the Park.  Get rid of the Carparking in North West Corner and you end up with more parkland.

Hi Jonno,

I was thinking more about placing the Vic Park stadium into the side of the hill.

So nesting it into the hillside.

So it would be placed at Label 19 in the images. This is a variation on what Archipelago is proposing.

The other thing to note is that KG State College has a Feild only 1km from the stadium with facilities that could be used/upgraded (tack mostly)



Victoria Park does not have to be decimated to make this work.

Facebook ...

Premier Miles and his ministerial colleagues have not thought this through properly.

Brisbane's population growth over the next 10 years means we must have a principal sports stadium that matches our larger population in 2032, and that means a stadium with a capacity of 55,000 spectators. It would double as a large capacity concert venue.

The obvious place tobuild it is Victoria Park, close to rail and Metro bus services.

Yes, a stadium at that location will cost $3.4 billion. BUT, this cost can be offset by selling off The Gabba when it reaches the end of its economic life in 10 years time. It is prime real estate. Developers would pay a premium to buy it and build accommodation units there.

Or how about this, Dr Miles:

- commit to a new, larger and modern stadium in Victoria Park
- when the time comes, sell of The Gabba
- retain a strip of land for expansion of the East Brisbane State School (to cater for increased population density in the inner-city)
- retain another strip of land for a community park (to partly offset the loss of parkland at Victoria Park)
- sell off the rest to the private sector to kick start a Wolloongabba precinct redevelopment
OR
- rather than sell to developers, the State Government retains the remainder of the site and works with the private sector to build subsidised rental accommodation for teachers, ambos, police and other state government frontline employees whose low wages mean they can't afford to live in the city, but are pushed to the margins around Aura and Flagstone, from where they must travel to work and thereby contribute to congestion and pollution.

I am sure the world media would appreciate the park-like setting of an Olympic Stadium at Victoria Park. They are unlikely to be impressed by an athletics venue up Kessells Road, past the warehouse household good stores and commercial premises, and a cemetery next door.

ABC News --> Lang Park will be the centrepiece of the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games, along with changes to other venues

QuoteIn short: The plans for a number of Olympic venues have changed following an infrastructure review led by former lord mayor Graham Quirk.

The review's recommendation to build a new stadium at Victoria Park has been ruled out by the government, with Lang Park set to host the opening and closing ceremonies.

What's next? The government said it will now "move quickly", with an independent delivery authority to be established by mid-2024. ...

In Qld ---> https://www.inqld.com.au/news/olympics/2024/03/19/athletics-at-nathan-water-sports-at-chandler-surely-it-cant-be-long-till-they-roll-out-matilda-again


^^Welcome back Matilda with the one eyed wink. 😂🤪

QuoteThe use of QSAC at Nathan will require construction of a permanent bus hub capable of holding up to 150 buses at a time for just the four weeks of the Games – and with little to no use after.

^^OMG!!!

Quote from: Stillwater on March 19, 2024, 14:12:07 PMPremier Miles and his ministerial colleagues have not thought this through properly.

Brisbane's population growth over the next 10 years means we must have a principal sports stadium that matches our larger population in 2032, and that means a stadium with a capacity of 55,000 spectators. It would double as a large capacity concert venue.

The obvious place tobuild it is Victoria Park, close to rail and Metro bus services.

Yes, a stadium at that location will cost $3.4 billion. BUT, this cost can be offset by selling off The Gabba when it reaches the end of its economic life in 10 years time. It is prime real estate. Developers would pay a premium to buy it and build accommodation units there.

Or how about this, Dr Miles:

- commit to a new, larger and modern stadium in Victoria Park
- when the time comes, sell of The Gabba
- retain a strip of land for expansion of the East Brisbane State School (to cater for increased population density in the inner-city)
- retain another strip of land for a community park (to partly offset the loss of parkland at Victoria Park)
- sell off the rest to the private sector to kick start a Wolloongabba precinct redevelopment
OR
- rather than sell to developers, the State Government retains the remainder of the site and works with the private sector to build subsidised rental accommodation for teachers, ambos, police and other state government frontline employees whose low wages mean they can't afford to live in the city, but are pushed to the margins around Aura and Flagstone, from where they must travel to work and thereby contribute to congestion and pollution.

I am sure the world media would appreciate the park-like setting of an Olympic Stadium at Victoria Park. They are unlikely to be impressed by an athletics venue up Kessells Road, past the warehouse household good stores and commercial premises, and a cemetery next door.

surely it can't cost 3.4B

Quote from: Jonno on March 19, 2024, 17:05:38 PMsurely it can't cost 3.4B

It definitely could. Look at the picture where you've put it. How does the busway at RBWH connect to Herston? You are going to be building ON TOP of the inner city bypass. HUGE logistical and engineering challenges to begin with, regardless of the increasing costs of labour and materials, plus the fitout of a stadium for world class productions in 2032. You're talking hundreds of millions in live technical Production costs alone

Correct me if I am wrong but 3x the cost of a recently built brand new stadium in Sydney that needed to be demolished. No major engineering challenges But 3 x the cost? Am I missing something?

QuoteThe stadium was completed and opened on 28 August 2022. The total construction cost of this stadium was A$828 million

Matilda, the Brisbane Commonwealth Games mascot, stands ready at Traveston Service Centre if required for a cut-price Olympic Games in 2032.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/basalamant/51270318314

https://x.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1770001279831757137?t=ktaGfVt1etALRv7iCZ-oJQ&s=09

Quote from: Stillwater on March 19, 2024, 14:12:07 PMYes, a stadium at that location will cost $3.4 billion. BUT, this cost can be offset by selling off The Gabba when it reaches the end of its economic life in 10 years time. It is prime real estate. Developers would pay a premium to buy it and build accommodation units there.

I don't think there's any world where the Gabba site gets repurposed.
Depending what you think was discussed behind closed doors, that assumption was built into the Victoria Park option to make it sound more palatable, or to make it more of a grenade than it already is.
But even if all 30 recommendations were accepted for now, I can't see a future government stomaching that final step. More likely the Gabba would just get rebuilt as a smaller venue.

If we're being realistic, every option ends with the government committing billions more dollars to sporting facilties in the mid-2030s, and the funny thing is that probably nobody will bat an eyelid. It's just this concept of "Olympic spend" that's become toxic.

Respectfully, building a 70k stadium in Nathan is not a good idea. It's simply too far from the CBD, even with an express rail tunnel.

Take it from a native Montrealer, who's city built their Olympic Stadium in 1976 too far from downtown (CBD). Even with a heavy subway line (the Metro's Green Line) directly connecting it with the CBD, its unfavourable location has made it a pariah. It caused attendance to baseball games to be so poor the team moved to the USA. And Montreal will never get a baseball team back until it builds a new stadium closer to downtown.

Major stadiums need to be a stone's throw away from CBDs to have lasting success.

Couriermail --> Adrian Schrinner slams QCAS's 'notoriously bad' mass transport options and says Games now 'at crossroads' $

QuoteRe-elected Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner says the Olympics are "at a crossroads" revealing he personally would have accepted the Victoria Park stadium proposal had it fulfilled three key elements.

Brisbane Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner says he would have personally backed building a brand-new stadium at the council-owned Victoria Park – but only if it could have been built for less than $3.4bn.

Lashing the state government for bungling the handling of the Brisbane 2032 Games venue plans, the newly re-elected Lord Mayor – who last year stepped down from the government's Games forum – told The Courier-Mail the Olympics were "at a crossroads". ...

Couriermail --> Miles govt denies claims it's sought advice to cancel Brisbane 2032 Games $

QuoteThe state government has emphatically denied seeking advice to cancel the 2032 Brisbane Olympic and Paralympic Games.

Media reports on Tuesday night indicated the government had considered cancelling the global event amid a public backlash over venue costs and waning public support.

Senior government figures have privately raised the question of cancelling the global event amid a public backlash over venue costs and waning support.

But Premier Steven Miles's office has denied that any serious consideration was given – saying the government was committed to the event. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1770142934609838329?s=20

Couriermail --> Brisbane 2032: QSAC stadium to be to smallest Games athletics venue since 1928 $

QuoteBrisbane residents hoping to catch the Olympics action in the city's $1.6bn athletics stadium are in for a fight for tickets, with the venue set to be the smallest since the Amsterdam Games held 104 years earlier.

Brisbane's Olympic athletics stadium at Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre would be the smallest since the Amsterdam Games held 104 years earlier and give residents "little opportunity" to see finals events in 2032.

Analysis of Olympic Games reveals the government's proposal to build a $1.6bn, 40,000-seat stadium at the Nathan QSAC site will make it the smallest athletics venue since 1928 – when women debuted in athletics and art competitions were still part of the medal program. ...

Couriermail --> The 2032 Games venues review is over, now we must get on with it $

QuoteThe increasingly farcical and fractious debate about the 2032 Games stadium risks damaging the event and our international reputation, writes Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner .

The Brisbane 2032 Games is, yet again, at a crossroads. The increasingly farcical and fractious debate about where the main stadium should be built risks damaging not just the event itself but our international reputation.

Since I stepped down from the State Government's Games forum last year, my view on this has been very clear: We live in the fastest-growing region in Australia. So, we should first be pursuing transport solutions, not over-priced stadiums, as themain legacy of the Games.  ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1770146866648449190?s=20

https://x.com/CameronAtfield/status/1770021031484493825?s=20

Brisbanetimes --> Arena to bring life to precinct between Suncorp Stadium and CBD $

QuoteThe Queensland government has backed a recommendation Brisbane Arena be built on a new site, with paths, bridges and boulevards to connect it to the CBD and beyond.

The proposed 17,000-seat entertainment centre has been on the agenda for years and attracted $2.5 billion in federal funding to be built above the rail lines at the CBD end of Roma Street.

It will host swimming for the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games using a drop-in pool – the Brisbane Aquatic Centre will also be upgraded – and be served by the Cross River Rail and Metro stations under construction.

But the review, led by former Liberal lord mayor Graham Quirk, found there were engineering challenges at that site, as well as a risk of cost blowouts and delays. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1770148570387173775?s=20

Brisbanetimes --> If these are the Games Brisbane will deliver, perhaps it's not worth it $

QuoteStung by local criticism of the Gabba rebuild, which was helping cement the Greens' grip on the formerly safe Labor seat of South Brisbane, Queensland Premier Steven Miles launched a review into its $2.7 billion rebuild.

The review ostensibly covered all 2032 Olympic venues, but it was clear the Gabba was front-and-centre of Miles' thinking when he flagged the independent appraisal days before he took office.

It was an early sign of pragmatism from the new premier, and his appointment of former Brisbane lord mayor Graham Quirk – an LNP stalwart and the man who kicked off the Olympic bid in the first place – was an absolute masterstroke.

"My preference would be that they come back and say, actually, 'there is an alternative and here's what we think you should do'," Miles said as he announced Quirk's $150,000 appointment in January.

"In which case, I will take that advice."

Except, he didn't. ...

Can QIC or a super fund build the stadium instead?

If the billionaire owners of professional AFL and cricket teams want a new stadium to play in, why don't they pay for it?
It's how sports stadiums are financed in the rest of the world.
Why is it the taxpayer that has to foot the bill?

ABC News --> Queensland Premier Steven Miles's attempt to end division over Gabba demolition sent him back to starting line

QuoteIt's been more than 900 days since Brisbane was announced as host for the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games, and the Queensland government is back to square one for its centrepiece stadium.

Premier Steven Miles ordered an independent review of major Olympic venues to end the division created by the $2.7 billion demolition proposed for the Gabba, and to find a better value for money option.

But the outcome has resulted in the state government landing back where it started — with $2.7 billion to spend on venues for the opening and closing ceremonies, and athletic events.

Only this option won't give Brisbane a new world class stadium by 2032. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1770205684891799560?s=20

I think a consensus view is growing that Victoria Park was not such a bad idea after all.

https://x.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1769999194012442891?s=20

Queensland Parliament Hansard Tuesday 19th March 2024

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/events/han/2024/2024_03_19_DAILY.pdf

So, Premier Miles is going to establish (finally) an Olympic Games Delivery Authority ... after politicians making all the important decisions for the authority, which will now be handed a sh%it sandwich. AND there is a prospect that a possible future LNP government will change the game plan yet again.

Quote from: Stillwater on March 20, 2024, 08:16:56 AMSo, Premier Miles is going to establish (finally) an Olympic Games Delivery Authority ... after politicians making all the important decisions for the authority, which will now be handed a sh%it sandwich. AND there is a prospect that a possible future LNP government will change the game plan yet again.

And consider this.  The only reason the ' Brisbane Arena ' project still survives is because the Feds agreed to support it with $2.5Billion. The Feds wiped their hands clean wrt the 'Gabba and the rest.

I would not be surprised if the LNP decide to support the 'Quirk plan' holus bolus.  It is interesting to note that LM Schrinner has shifted his position to one completely against Victoria Park to now supportive (with a few conditions).  I read the tea leaves this morning ... 

Governments need to assess the cancellation option as part of due diligence and contingency. Even if it is an unpopular and unpleasant possibility, it still needs to go to assessment.

It's implied by the news report that perhaps the Qld Govt wanted to cancel the games, but I don't think this was the case.

Quote from: ozbob on March 20, 2024, 08:33:27 AM

Quote from: Stillwater on March 20, 2024, 08:16:56 AMSo, Premier Miles is going to establish (finally) an Olympic Games Delivery Authority ... after politicians making all the important decisions for the authority, which will now be handed a sh%it sandwich. AND there is a prospect that a possible future LNP government will change the game plan yet again.

And consider this.  The only reason the ' Brisbane Arena ' project still survives is because the Feds agreed to support it with $2.5Billion. The Feds wiped their hands clean wrt the 'Gabba and the rest.

I would not be surprised if the LNP decide to support the 'Quirk plan' holus bolus.  It is interesting to note that LM Schrinner has shifted his position to one completely against Victoria Park to now supportive (with a few conditions).  I read the tea leaves this morning ... 

Ther Lord Mayor's conditiosn are quite stringent though:
1) keeping the stadium footprint to a minimum
2) no net loss of parkland
3) the stadium delivering a cheaper option than knocking down and rebuilding the Gabba

1) and 2) seem easy, but 3) is quite the hurdle...

^ cost should be less.  There isn't the demolition costs and it is green field construction.

I don't think LM Schrinner would stand in the way now.

Quote from: Habitant on March 20, 2024, 08:44:44 AM

Quote from: ozbob on March 20, 2024, 08:33:27 AM

Quote from: Stillwater on March 20, 2024, 08:16:56 AMSo, Premier Miles is going to establish (finally) an Olympic Games Delivery Authority ... after politicians making all the important decisions for the authority, which will now be handed a sh%it sandwich. AND there is a prospect that a possible future LNP government will change the game plan yet again.

And consider this.  The only reason the ' Brisbane Arena ' project still survives is because the Feds agreed to support it with $2.5Billion. The Feds wiped their hands clean wrt the 'Gabba and the rest.

I would not be surprised if the LNP decide to support the 'Quirk plan' holus bolus.  It is interesting to note that LM Schrinner has shifted his position to one completely against Victoria Park to now supportive (with a few conditions).  I read the tea leaves this morning ... 

Ther Lord Mayor's conditiosn are quite stringent though:
1) keeping the stadium footprint to a minimum
2) no net loss of parkland
3) the stadium delivering a cheaper option than knocking down and rebuilding the Gabba

1) and 2) seem easy, but 3) is quite the hurdle...

Yeah, #3 isn't happening. The Quirk review suggested VP because it was a better value option. I suppose Schrinner could always spin it that he's taking a long term view in saying "cheaper".

I think #1 is also a bit wishy washy. The main benefit of using a greenfield site is that it's less constrained. I'm all for minimum loss of parkland, but if you're going to squeeze a stadium into a tiny, lonely corner of Victoria Park, what's the point?

It's also worth considering that the impact of a stadium on the VP greenspace will be a lot more than just it's footprint.

Quote from: Habitant on March 20, 2024, 09:58:48 AMIt's also worth considering that the impact of a stadium on the VP greenspace will be a lot more than just it's footprint.

already shown it can be done with minimal to no loss of green space. Remove car parking and it could be an increase in green space overall. 

Cost I am still struggling with.  4x Sydney's 42,000 seat World Class stadium. 

There is already a workable underpass under Bowen Bridge Rd that would need to be made wider/safer/more attractive.

Couriermail  --> Brisbane Olympics boss Andrew Liveris coy over stadium stoush $

QuoteAfter 24 hours of turmoil around the Brisbane 2032 Olympics, President of the Brisbane 2032 organising committee Andrew Liveris has defended the political gymnastics on stadium infrastructure as "very normal" but maintained that the Games should "deliver long term sporting venues and infrastructure to support the fastest growing region in Australia."

Speaking at the Sport NXT conference, Liveris carefully avoided commenting on Queenlsand Premier Steven Miles' captain's call to scrap the major recommendations of the Games' independent review of venues, instead saying that decisions were still to be made.

"Recommendations from it are being assessed for their appropriateness and decisions will be made with full consultation of our Organising Committee and the IOC and AOC, and provide a path forward for the Australian and Queensland governments to decide on," he said.

Liveris' comments will give some hope that the Premier's decisions are not seen as final by the organising committee, particularly the reference to the Federal Government. ...

Quote from: Jonno on March 20, 2024, 10:01:54 AMCost I am still struggling with.  4x Sydney's 42,000 seat World Class stadium. 

I'm struggling with this also. How can we be so stupendously inefficient or corrupt that it would cost so much more in Qld than in NSW? The Gabba rebuild would be extremely difficult on the very constrained site, but that would not be the same here.

Victoria Park becomes a contender if you weigh up other considerations .... like not having to relocate and rebuild the Brisbane East State School and you don't have to pay relocation costs for cricket/AFL (these are musts in the rebuild The Gabba proposition).