RAIL - Back On Track Forum

The funny thing is why have a review when they were working on plans anyway.

Quote from: #Metro on March 18, 2024, 18:24:11 PMThis is going to be like CRR this. Govt might change come October and all plans rolled back and replaced.

Bring back the BAT!!!

Quote from: ozbob on March 18, 2024, 15:16:56 PMWell what a whirlwind of a day ...

I am happy that Brisbane Arena is no longer over Roma St station. 

"Brisbane Arena 

Recommendation to proceed with venue in new location within Roma St Parklands.

Recommendation accepted. "

Haven't had much time to think about the rest.

Yes this is ok and the location change has been on the cards for a while. They will need to build an new pedestrian overpass from Parkland Cres across the tracks on the western side with lifts and escalators down to the platforms. Still a bit of a walk but no different to what they have at Boondall

The most important sentence in Graham Quirks Olympic venues report should be printed in red, the type bolded and underlined. It reads: "At this time of high-cost escalation, quicker delivery means much lower cost." Don't Sunshine Coast residents waiting years for the CAMCOS/DSCL project to be delivered know that to be true.

It's good to see most recommendations have been accepted.

And as much as I despise the existence of QSAC, the reality is that it's there, and all the stadium options (Gabba vs Victoria Park vs QSAC) were bad in their own way. My big problem with the the QSAC decision is that they haven't accounted for the cost of transport infrastructure, i.e. they aren't going to build any. I don't see anything less than a busway spur as acceptable - the Nathan precinct should've had one all along.
Miles was quoted today as saying he'd "talk to BCC" about transport options which just boggles the mind.

All PT policy in Brisbane is essentially devolved/outsourced to BCC.

Expect BCC to put the transport plan together.

^ I know, but QSAC needs transport infrastructure. Fobbing it off to BCC to send some buses in there, with no real infrastructure spend, will be disastrous.
We all know this of course, and I think the state probably knows it too, but pretending otherwise keeps the headline cost low until a future government is forced to deal with the problem.

There is a good case now for a bus interchange at Coopers Plains, likely between Rookwood and Beaton Streets. This would allow connection to Beenleigh line and Gold Coast Line trains.

Coopers Plains > Orange Grove Road > Kessels Rd > QSAC (~ 4 km)

After the games, you could run a feeder service between Coopers Plains, the QE II Hospital, Griffith Uni and the SE busway.

Update:

I think it is a bit odd that UQ was not considered a venue. With the Schonell Bridge, Brisbane Metro, large parkland setting and proximity to Dutton Park/Park Road, a stadium there could also work. It would be a lot closer than Griffith Uni Nathan campus.

The best part of the Quirks review is having most of the venues in one area which would minimise the need for transport. This in itself could reduce costs. Plus having venues near the city South Brisbane and the Valley gives people the opportunity to spend at bars and restaurants. Vic Park is a no brainer.

So much for that expanded PDA around the Gabba as well 🤪😂

No wonder Qld is a joke and fails to attract real investment.

Quote from: Gazza on March 18, 2024, 15:27:41 PM

QuoteNot sure it can move the #'s in the timeframes needed for an Olympic Stadium.

Eh.
The Gabba has been bus dependent since day dot and QSAC will be smaller even with the temporary upgrades...

It really hasn't. Go to an event at the Gabba and you'll find plenty of people making the 1.4km walk to South Bank station. It's often quicker than hanging around waiting for a bus to the train.

I for one am glad they are not building at Victoria Park.
The "12%" figure seems ridiculous to me. A Stadium would impact the greenspace much more than it's 12% area footprint.
Large greenspace like Victoria Park is precious in a city as large as Brisbane and should not be eroded.

As for the cost or need for a new stadium to replace the Gabba, sure an argument can be made, I'm very open to the idea. But not a Victoria Park.

Also: 50-55k stadium? That's still on the small side really...

Brisbanetimes --> 'Leave it to the experts': LNP plans to take stadium decision-making out of politicians' hands $

QuoteThe Queensland opposition has blasted the Miles government for ignoring the recommendations of an independent review into Brisbane 2032 Olympic venues, but stopped short of taking a position on whether to build the recommended new stadium at Victoria Park.

Premier Steven Miles rejected the signature recommendation of the Graham Quirk-led review – the establishment of which was Miles' first act as premier – when he ruled out a $3.4 billion stadium at Victoria Park. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1769786385643315462?s=20

https://x.com/10NewsFirstQLD/status/1769593405485777078?s=20

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/editors-view-queensland-where-is-the-leadership/news-story/77b03d12439d90d440e2b43e4046e591

" ...  Meanwhile, the state's alternative premier, David Crisafulli, did not even have the ticker to turn up after state cabinet's bizarre decision, to explain what he would do if the LNP – as seems likely – wins power at the October state election.

Instead, he sent out his deputy Jarrod Bleijie – who launched into an extended monologue criticising the delays that Labor's mishandling of the Games has so far left us with, before revealing that in power the LNP would embark on its own review by asking the independent delivery authority to make the big decisions about venues. Talk about hypocrisy!

This is also not leadership. In fact, avoiding answering the question is even worse than what the Premier has done. At least he showed up! ... "

So this is probably the worse outcome now.  Not so much in the choice of venues but the clear political shambles we now have.  The LNP should they be successful want to do another infrastructure review!

My scanning around the media, feedback etc. would suggest the community is very much divided on what is the best approach.

The Couriermail had it right yesterday when they suggested Crisafulli and Miles should pick up the telephone and agree on a non-partisan approach.

Since Brisbane was awarded the Games we have seen not much substantive progress at all.

We are now in limbo once again until the outcome of the state election in 2024 is the way I see it.

 

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1769794478158807514?s=20

^

A comment on the shambles that is QLD and the ' games '

"So this is probably the worse outcome now.  Not so much in the choice of venues but the clear political shambles we now have.  The LNP should they be successful in the Oct #qldvotes want to do another infrastructure review!

My scanning around the media, feedback etc. would suggest the community is very much divided on what is the best approach.

The @couriermail had it right yesterday when they suggested  @DavidCrisafulli and  @StevenJMiles should pick up the telephone and agree on a non-partisan approach.

Since Brisbane was awarded the Games we have seen not much substantive progress at all.

We are now in limbo once again until the outcome of the state election in Oct 2024 is the way I see it."

#qldpol

Sent to all outlets:

A comment on the shambles that is Queensland and the ' games '

19th March 2024

"So this is probably the worse outcome now.  Not so much in the choice of venues but the clear political shambles we now have.  The LNP should they be successful in the Oct #qldvotes want to do another infrastructure review!

My scanning around the media, feedback etc. would suggest the community is very much divided on what is the best approach. The @couriermail had it right yesterday when they suggested @DavidCrisafulli and @StevenJMiles should pick up the telephone and agree on a non-partisan approach.

Since Brisbane was awarded the Games we have seen not much substantive progress at all. We are now in limbo once again until the outcome of the state election in Oct 2024 is the way I see it."

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1769794478158807514?s=20
Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Big contrast between what WA does - single decision and execute, and QLD where it is co-ordinate different stakeholders to get everyone to agree on 1 thing.

Neither is right or wrong, but approach No.2 takes much longer and usually comes with a flood of reviews and decision flips (as any of the multiple stakeholders can flip political party or be replaced).

Fully expect whatever Miles decides now will be thrown out in October if they lose govt and we will possibly have yet another review of the review, and another start on a different plan.

The original intention to establish an independent Olympic Games Infrastructure Authority, agreed to by Anna Palaszczuk but then abandoned, was designed to remove the politics and allow for an orderly progression outside the political/election cycle. Now the LNP has weighed in, saying they reserve the right to change things again. This is looking like an episode of the satirical comedy Utopia day by day. Or The Games.

https://x.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1769822637998412132?s=20

QuotePledged to go back to the drawing board.

^^ Right on cue! So predictable.

No point really doing much but be caretaker on this until State election in October.

Anarchy would be more organised.

Agreed. No point in doing much at all re the 'games'.

Planned venues could change, I don't think there's enough time for the Miles' Government to lock anything in by the way of contracts before #qldvotes.

What's so astounding is the extent to which Queensland politicians are prepared to game the system -- against common sense -- in order to play the political game to the point of chaotic brinkmanship. The paint will be barely dry on the Olympic Stadium, wherever it is located, before punters will be marching up the stairs to watch the opening ceremony.

Yeah, if the byelection results weren't a bad sign, I think this has made things worse.

Some people would have preferred to see the Gabba to preserve Vic Park.
Some would have preferred to see Vic Park in order to get a 'proper' stadium.

But with QSAC, nobody is happy.

Gabba is still doable and it's a better outcome IMO. However, to get 60k, Vulture St, Stanley St & possibly Wellington Rd would need to be sunk. I'm not totally against this, as it would massively improve pedestrian amenity in the area, but would likely cost $$$.

Does RBOT have a view to a reasonable location given transit arrangements?

From a PT perspective, Victoria Park would work well. QUT and Herston busways, an additional event station could be added to CRR broadly where the train wash station is, and so Spring Hill would get a train station.

Buildings at QUT could be used for any special or spillover events.

^

Two main options at present, with a possible third:

1.  The Quirk plan  30 recommendations.

2.  The Miles plan  27 of the 30 Quirk plan recommendations.

3.  Possible LNP plan, unknown at this time.

I think there are too many individual variations to form an consensus view on this just yet.

I don't think Victoria Park has any real chance because of the politics involved.  There is some strident community opposition to it.  For what is worth, BCC is against it as well.

Personally, I have always thought Lang Park could be used for the opening and closing ceremonies.

QSAC is fine for the athletics.

Brisbane Arena is sorted.

The Government of the day holds sway at present. I doubt the LNP will back the full Quirk plan.

So I don't think we can or should finalise a position at this time.  There is a lot to play out yet. Discussion on the merits or otherwise of the various venues is worth pursuing of course. Only then can things become clearer.

I think the problem with the "Vic Park Option" is that there is only the drawings by Archipelago as a guide and in those drawings the Stadium wipes out most of Vic Park. It is poorly located transport wise so not really an option.  There are options to the East end of the park that minimise Vic Park impact, 300-400m to Train Station (same line a CRR) + busway in support and walkable to RNA/Valley and the City as well.  I can't see this costing $3.4B.

I still haven't figured out the words to describe what I saw play out yesterday...

Luckily I'm just a country boy from the Southern Downs now, so I don't have to worry about it too much. Toowoomba essentially having no role in the Olympics is a bit of a bummer for our region, but there appeared to be a clear consensus the  plan there was bad value.

A distinct lack of clarity about what transport infrastructure the people of this state gets out of having athletics at QSAC makes me think shuttle buses are coming    .

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-news-live-lnp-to-leave-stadium-decisions-to-experts-qld-hotspots-among-biggest-online-shoppers-20240318-p5fda4.html?post=p55rqt#p55rqt

QuoteQSAC upgrades, improved transport connections to leave 'lasting legacy': Griffith

Griffith University, home of Griffith Sports College, has thrown its support behind the Queensland government's decision to invest in the Queensland Sports and Athletics Centre ahead of the 2032 Games.

"The uses for QSAC will only grow as we approach the Olympics and well after they are finished," Vice-Chancellor and President Professor Carolyn Evans said.

Evans added that this option would leave a "lasting legacy" in the city. Additionally, she explained, investment in transport connections to the area would greatly benefit those living in the city's south.

"It has been home to major sporting fixtures and teams and as a venue for international musical acts such as Madonna and Billy Joel." ...

Quote from: JonnoIt is poorly located transport wise so not really an option.

I don't think this is the case, and rail can be retrofit with an infill Spring hill station.

Already two busway stations that will allow access.

The current arrangements seem hand-made for the concept floated here recently (Gazza's I think) where instead of further track amplification between Kuraby and Boggo Road, we build a tunnel from Kuraby to Boggo Road CRR and send all Beenleigh and GC trains that way, with stops at Sunnybank (ie McCullough St and Mains Rd precinct) and QSAC / Nathan.

I'm increasingly of the view that is probably a much better approach than trying to shove a fourth track in on what is a compromised alignment in that stretch.  It has the advantage of better serving 2 much more useful locations than anywhere between Boggo Road and Kuraby at present, will wipe out a lot of busway congestion and provide faster travel times.  Combine that with a Flagstone line and you can reorient nearly all the bus services in the 130/140/150 region to be rail and busway feeders - Flagstone line for those further out, Gold Coast express line for those further in.

Quote from: SurfRail on March 19, 2024, 10:46:56 AMThe current arrangements seem hand-made for the concept floated here recently (Gazza's I think) where instead of further track amplification between Kuraby and Boggo Road, we build a tunnel from Kuraby to Boggo Road CRR and send all Beenleigh and GC trains that way, with stops at Sunnybank (ie McCullough St and Mains Rd precinct) and QSAC / Nathan.

I'm increasingly of the view that is probably a much better approach than trying to shove a fourth track in on what is a compromised alignment in that stretch.  It has the advantage of better serving 2 much more useful locations than anywhere between Boggo Road and Kuraby at present, will wipe out a lot of busway congestion and provide faster travel times.  Combine that with a Flagstone line and you can reorient nearly all the bus services in the 130/140/150 region to be rail and busway feeders - Flagstone line for those further out, Gold Coast express line for those further in.

Yeah, I would love this Gold Coast express tunnel idea, with stations at "Sunnybank Central" and Griffith/QSAC. And if anyone in government had come up with this idea 3 years ago, it might have been able to be done in time. But there's simply no way a railway project of that scale, plus a new stadium complex, could possibly be completed in time for 2032. There has been way too much mucking around with the politics of this whole thing.

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-news-live-lnp-to-leave-stadium-decisions-to-experts-qld-hotspots-among-biggest-online-shoppers-20240318-p5fda4.html?post=p55rrk#p55rrk

Parliament

QuotePut your big boy pants on': Miles calls on LNP to take a position on Games stadium

Miles used the first opportunity to launch an attack on Opposition Leader David Crisafulli about his party's failure to articulate a position on the Graham Quirk-led review's calls for a new stadium at Victoria Park (rejected by Miles).

Miles said he had taken the "tough decision" to reject that multibillion-dollar stadium proposal while cost-of-living pressures were biting, with Crisafulli instead "squibbing it" by not facing reporters.

"If you want this job, you better put your big boy pants on," Miles said.

"Too weak to even take a position. So weak that he suggests outsourcing that decision to an independent authority."

Sent to all outlets:

The Olympic Express  - A Sport and Transport Legacy for 2032

19th March 2024

RAIL Back On Track has devised an innovative alternative plan for stadiums and transport that would leave SEQ with a lasting legacy.

The problem with the various stadium options tabled so far are clear:

- The Gabba site is too small for a proper stadium, even after spending billions.
- Victoria Park / Barrambin is a good location, but there are concerns with losing parkland Brisbane has worked hard to free up.
- QSAC is in a poor location in terms of high capacity transport and the proposed temporary facilities won't leave much of a legacy.

All options cost in the billions and there's no escaping that.

Local governments and the community got behind the Olympics with the implicit understanding that we were going to get a visionary infrastructure boost to support the growth of SEQ.

So far all we have seen is cutbacks. As it is now, we're not even getting rail to Maroochydore after decades of government procrastination, and little else is on the table either.

RAIL Back On Track's plan centres around constructing a new 11km long Olympic Express rail tunnel from Dutton to Park to Runcorn, with 2 new stations (QSAC and Sunnybank Central), with a new permanent 70,000 seat stadium at QSAC becoming the premier sporting venue in SEQ.

The Olympic Express rail tunnel would connect the southern end of Cross River Rail with the northern end of the planned Logan and Gold Coast Faster Rail project at Kuraby, finally creating a truly fast, continuous, bottleneck free transport link between the two largest cities in Queensland.

Those attending events would be whisked from Roma Street to the new QSAC/Griffith station in around 12 minutes. The station would be set up much like the stations seen at Sydney Olympic Park and Perth Stadium, with multiple platforms to efficiently clear crowds.

Outside of sporting events, the station at the site would provide better access to Griffith University Nathan, QE2 Hospital, and the suburb of Robertson. It could even support housing for athletes, which can later be converted to affordable student housing for the campus.

The other station, Sunnybank Central, would be located at the intersection of Mains Road and McCullough St, providing better access to this busy precinct.

For everyone else, the tunnel would slash journey times to the Gold Coast by up to 15 minutes, bypassing the slowest and congested parts of the Beenleigh line around Altandi. It's work that is needed in the long run, and the Olympics are a good reason to get it done now.

RAIL Back On Track believes this is the sort of infrastructure the Olympics should have been bringing.

We've had plenty of time to plan for it!



Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Facebook ...

https://x.com/railbotforum/status/1769907894462673242?s=20

Silly arguments put by Miles et al, because Blue Team can simply adopt the Quirk review outcomes as their own. Quirk is from Blue Team.

As for the 11 km tunnel, would easily cost $3 bn on top of multi-bn stadium and facility builds and sunshine coast line etc. It will be a very crowded construction calendar.

By all means study it, but I think the appetite to add another mega project to the plate and fund something like this with a 2-way or possibly 3-way funding split is very low tbh.