RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Is it really a missing link if the road it replaces is directly above it?

More evidence that the merit principle just thrown out of the window.

https://x.com/JonathanPBryant/status/1726403135009390596?s=20

Quote from: ozbob on November 20, 2023, 10:32:04 AMhttps://x.com/bne_lordmayor/status/1726357273256329328?s=20

" Metro wash "

Yes, The Council has the right idea to deliver public transport improvements alongside this project.

What is needed?

An inline bus station at Chermside adjacent to Gympie Road instead of Hamilton road.

A new tunnel portal at Kedron  to connect the Gympie Road transit way southbound with the busway.

The completion of the busway from Federation St to the busway at Lutwyche

Plus the Gympie Road transit way to run 24/7.

Your Welcome.

2000 daily express buses via legacy way?

Permanent bus lane on Coronation Drive once Legacy Way is completed

 

I know it's kind of not the point here but did Schrinner forget that Brisbane is currently going underground with a large rail project?

IMO there are two financial problems with this tunnel, even if it is a public-private partnership:

The government will very likely have to cover upgrades to the road network outside of the immediate tunnel. For example, the privately funded Logan Motorway Enhancement came with it traffic light installation on Mount Lindesay and road widening (not included) and widening of Compton Road and Wembley Road (apparently included in cost). Unfortunately as Beaudesert Road continues to get busier, further widening seems inevitable. The government is also talking about building a new highway to Park Ridge (the Park Ridge Connector), a proposal from the 2000s which keeps coming back to life, as the Mount Lindesay Highway is quite constrained. The Gympie Road tunnel will certainly have wider impacts to the network and inevitably cost the government billions indirect costs.

The other major problem is that the car tunnel will consume government time and resources and further entrench car-centric planning in government policy.

Whether it is publicly or privately funded a car tunnel is very suboptimal at best.

https://x.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1730424862190272925?s=20

Meanwhile in Sydney
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-01/rozelle-interchange-explainer-first-week-congestion/103172454

https://x.com/dmichie66/status/1730362734875951427?s=46&t=EDszjTErsxTIqAna7yuP-w

"It's time they started designing a road system and acknowledging that you design for the road user."

And here's where the problem lies. You don't design a road system for road users, you design a transport system for people. They're so focused on moving cars that they forget the point is to move people.

Quote from: ozbob on December 01, 2023, 15:05:56 PMhttps://x.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1730424862190272925?s=20

Another 11 months of Bailey in Government is just too long.

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Sydney's Rozelle Interchange Disaster Showcases Brisbane Future

9th December 2023

RAIL Back On Track spokesman Robert Dow said the traffic chaos that ensued with the recent opening of Rozelle Interchange in Sydney provides the perfect showcase into the future of a Gympie Road tunnel (1, 2).

Headlines have been scathing and they are spot on:

"Rozelle Interchange design issues will be a problem for Sydney's future, experts say"

"A tsunami of traffic chaos': the new Sydney motorway prompting calls for a royal commission"

"Rozelle Interchange was meant to ease congestion on Sydney roads. So what went wrong?"

This is what happens when you prioritise driving over public transport, walking, cycling and mobility devices.

Industry experts are highlighting in Sydney (1):

"You can't solve congestion, we solved congestion during COVID when nobody was travelling — the question is, whether you have people on high-capacity public transport, on footpaths, on e-scooters.

"That's the question about what congestion you want, not can you solve it."

Christopher Standen, an urban transport and planning expert with the University of NSW, said the interchange was emblematic of poor infrastructure planning in Australia.

"It was always clear that it would be a disaster for Sydney and that's played out," he said.

"There were votes to be had in making it easier for people in outer suburbs to drive into the city, even though that's not a great thing from an urban planning perspective.

"The last thing we should be doing is building roads that encourage people to drive more and to move further away from work, so encouraging urban sprawl and low-density development."

The Palaszczuk Government and Schrinner Council must abandon any thought of a Gympie Road tunnel to avoid the same headlines being repeated here in Brisbane.

RAIL Back On Track again calls for both levels of Governments to focus more transport spending on public and active transport service improvements such as:

Separated active transport paths/lanes

Bus priority

SEQ Bus Network Overhaul

Increased Train and Bus Frequencies

Expanding Cycling Facilities

Children Free Travel around the clock on public transport in Queensland

The problem with "balancing transportation" - if you've been building for cars for decades, other modes can't catch up without prioritizing.
Brent Toderian

"A city's creativity doesn't depend on cars. That's the 20th century. We're in the 21st."
Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

1. Rozelle Interchange design issues will be a problem for Sydney's future, experts say
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-05/nsw-rozelle-interchange-design-experts/103186410

2. 'It's a forever problem': Experts say Rozelle hell is here to stay
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/it-s-a-forever-problem-experts-say-rozelle-hell-is-here-to-stay-20231130-p5eo2o.html

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https://x.com/railbotforum/status/1733474591706869854?s=20

Interesting point from IAs analysis of Melbourne Airport Rail

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/consider-delaying-melbourne-airport-rail-link-infrastructure-australia-20221031-p5buel.html

But a key issue is that Melburnians will keep driving to the airport until the recently widened Tullamarine Freeway reaches capacity around 2036. That "undermines" the project's short-term benefits and would result in low passenger volumes for the first 10 years of operation, the assessment says.

Delaying the project to align with the Tullamarine reaching gridlock, while also giving Victoria time to confirm its scope and building costs, would "reduce risk and maximise the return for taxpayers", it says.


So basically, expanding roads undermines the viability of public transport in the short to medium term.
Not hard to see why, if there is a shiny new road, there's less incentive for people to try new public transport, and the public transport has to 'work harder' if it is competing with a high speed road.

Why we need Road Tunnels (balanced reasoning) - https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4767.msg278658#msg278658

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Why the Gympie Road Tunnel Does Not Make Basic Sense!

15th January 2024

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web-based community group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has called for Transport Minister Bart Mellish and the Queensland Government to drop plans for a Gympie Road tunnel in favour of constructing a Northern Busway tunnel and Brisbane Metro to Chermside (1, 2).

We estimate that a two lane Gympie Road tunnel will have a maximum people moving capacity of around 4320 persons/direction/hour during peak (3). This is a similar capacity to adding 4.3 trains to the train network during peak hour. Not very 'congestion busting' in our view.

Why not build the Gympie Road tunnel as a busway tunnel? By the Queensland Government's own figures, capacity for up to 18,000 people/direction/hour would be added during peak (4). Could QIC fund and construct a busway tunnel and recover the money over time from the Queensland Government if funds are not available now?

'Car Rapid Transport' (CRT) is the wrong mode for South East Queensland. Its alluring fantasy vision of Sunday afternoon traffic congestion levels for everyone on surface roads like Gympie Road during the middle of weekday peak cannot be delivered or sustained. Roads are inherently low capacity, and any congestion gains will quickly be lost. Busways and Fast Rail are better investment choices.

Toll road tunnels are also presented as if there is no future cost to the government's own budget. This is not necessarily true. Once a toll road monopolist has major control over a large portion of Brisbane's motorway network, there will be enormous pressure to put in a daily cap on tolls and have the Queensland Government pay for it with taxpayer subsidies.

The NSW Government, for example, is now paying motorists an average of $389.58 per year to drive under toll capping. Residents of the Sydney suburb of Kellyville are some of the largest beneficiaries, even though their suburb has a metro station with services every few minutes. Subsidising car dependency is the exact opposite of good transport policy.

Can the Queensland Treasurer Cameron Dick or Transport Minister Bart Mellish explain why they are promoting a low-capacity toll tunnel with four times less capacity in preference to their own stalled Northern Busway plans?

We do not believe that there is a 'missing link' in the motorway network. What is missing though is a sensible transport plan for SEQ in the Government offices at 1 William Street.

References:

(1) Plan revealed for new northside road tunnel
https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/97905

(2) Brisbane on track for change with 'strategic removal' of level crossings
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-on-track-for-change-with-strategic-removal-of-level-crossings-20240113-p5ex0c.html

(3) Calculation - Car Toll Tunnel Maximum Theoretical Capacity
1,800 vehicles/hr per lane x 2 lanes peak flow x 1.2 passengers/vehicle = 4,320 people/hr/direction
Train Equivalent - 4,320 people/1000 pax train = 4.3 trains.

(4) Motorists to get $561 million cash back under toll cap
https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/news/motorists-to-get-561-million-cash-back-under-toll-cap#

(5) RBOT: A Gympie Road Toll Tunnel Will Monetise Congestion, Not Bust It
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15295.0

(6) Reality Check: No, More Roads Won't Give us a Congestion-Free Future
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15327.0

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

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Seems Team Schrinner has this as a fait accompli

From LM Summer Newsletter ...

https://x.com/BrendanNatoli/status/1749342145310585293?s=20

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1749416076629459179?s=20

Numbers tell you things that narratives won't - maximum theoretical peak direction capacity comparable to adding 4.3 trains to the network. This marks it as an exercise in marketing over logic, unfortunately.

Practical capacity actually lower than this because toll fees discourage use. Low peak capacity is an ugly statistic so the remedy is usually to omit the peak capacity number in favour of quoting a daily traffic figure, which serves to conceal the ugly fact.

But the peak capacity is essential, as peak is when the congestion is.

A busway tunnel could be built at half the size (and potentially at lower cost due to this) as well.

Council is upgrading Beams Road between Gympie Road and Handford Road.

At the Beams Road and Lacey Road intersection, Council wants to reconfigure for 2 lanes going to the traffic lights at Gympie Road. The state wants 2 turning lanes to Lacey Road IIRC.

There's an overpass over Gympie Road up Lacey Road at Linkfield Road, so Council could be starting to 'build in' the tunnel now, competing with other projects. There are plans to upgrade the Linkfield Road overpass, somewhat similar to Strathpine Road I'm assuming.

I just can't grasp how you can plan to build a car/truck only tunnel in 2024.

Quote from: verbatim9 on December 22, 2023, 10:19:47 AMWhy we need Road Tunnels (balanced reasoning) - https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4767.msg278658#msg278658

Go read about the Big Dig and get back to us.

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Add the Not-a-True Metro to the pole jumping!!

Brisbanetimes --> Busy Brisbane road being redesigned as tunnel decision looms $

QuoteQueensland Transport and Main Roads Minister Bart Mellish has asked his department to come up with designs to show how Gympie Road might cater for local traffic, with better public transport facilities and paths, if long-distance drivers were to use a proposed toll tunnel.

The Miles government was expected to use the state budget in June to make a decision on the Gympie Road Bypass Tunnel, proposed by the Queensland Investment Corporation to offer a paid alternative for motorists travelling between Kedron and Carseldine.

If given the green light, the tunnel would connect with Airport Link, and from it Brisbane's other toll tunnels and bridges, and allow more traffic to avoid the inner city. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1772310497192219118?s=20

I think it's odd to assume most drivers will use a toll road, when the CLEM7, Legacy Way and Go-Between Bridge traffic forecasts have been absurdly high compared to actual use.

Problem is Brisbane if not the whole of SEQ just voted for more of this!  They think it's the solution and I have no idea anymore how to show them it's the cause!

At least smoking had the medical profession highlighting the problem. They are deadly silent as a profession on this

https://x.com/DavidCrisafulli/status/1793082172414546182

https://x.com/DavidCrisafulli/status/1793124708310999333?t=_e14bfM5vjkhHiprw6KC3Q&s=19

The "certainty" that it will be the same failure as Federation Street to Truro Street and AirportLink, as the Tullamarine Freeway and rail to Melbourne Airport, and Sydney's toll subsidies for suburbs served by Metro?

There is a clear answer here, and the Government is slowly moving towards a busway to serve the Northwest suburbs. Who would think a second tunnel on the same road would work where the previous one hasn't?

Tunnel should be half the size and carry buses only.

Will give much higher people moving capacity in peak hour when congestion is at its greatest.

The study QIC is doing appears to be a 'one horse race'. Other horses were not included in the race because they might have won.

This is not how proper planning should be done!

Brisbanetimes --> Labor refuses to release new Brisbane tunnel plan $

QuotePlans for a new toll tunnel to avoid traffic around Chermside have bipartisan support, across two levels of government, but the details remain secret.

The Miles government has yet to release the results of a community consultation process that Transport and Main Roads Minister Bart Mellish claimed was "overwhelmingly positive".

And on Wednesday night, Labor used its majority in state parliament to block a Liberal National Party bid to force the government to release the results of a taxpayer-funded planning study. The RACQ motoring lobby had also called for the study to be released.

Details of the project remain under wraps despite the LNP – in parliament and City Hall – not only supporting the tunnel, but expecting it to be funded in the state budget. ...

https://x.com/brisbanetimes/status/1793441508340998493

Brisbanetimes --> Budget green light for Gympie Road bypass tunnel to move to next stage $

QuoteThe Miles government has decided there is merit in a new Brisbane tunnel that could save motorists 32 minutes by avoiding 19 sets of traffic lights on a return trip between Kedron and Carseldine.

But with the proposed Gympie Road Bypass Tunnel likely to cost more than $7 billion to build, it will be up to a future government to decide whether to proceed. Labor believes construction could start as early as 2027.  ...

Sent to all outlets:

Call for Cancellation of Gympie Road Toll Tunnel Project

11th June 2024

RAIL Back On Track (https://backontrack.org) calls for the next Queensland Government to independently review and cancel the Gympie Road Toll Tunnel project.

"The Gympie Road Toll Tunnel is the wrong mode for a Growing South East Queensland." RAIL Back On Track spokesperson Robert Dow said.

The first tactic in pushing a road project is to run what we call a 'one horse race' where only the feasibility of a road option is studied, and competing public transport options are excluded. A proper study would allow competing public transport options like a railway or a busway to be considered as well.

The second tactic in pushing a road project is to quote a daily traffic figure and not the 1-hour peak direction capacity of the tunnel. The effect of this is to conceal the tunnel's low peak hour capacity by omission. And its poor suitability for meeting the transport task compared against other transport modes such as busways or railways.

We request North Brisbane Infrastructure (NBI) and the Queensland Government to publicly release the 1-hour peak traffic figures from their traffic modelling this week to the media. Please confirm for us the tunnel's low peak hour and peak direction capacity.

If 40,000 vehicles use the Gympie Road Toll Tunnel per day, then the 1-hour peak direction capacity would only be about say 10% of this value, or 4,000 vehicles in the 1-hour peak direction.

This capacity increase is similar to adding just over four trains to the train network.

In our opinion, nobody in the Queensland Department of Transport and Main Roads would think spending $7 billion to add just four trains worth of peak hour capacity to the train network was good value, but apparently it makes sense when a road project does it?

Transport Minister Bart Mellish is quoted as saying that "traffic on Gympie Road was projected to increase from 80,000 vehicles a day to 111,000 a day by 2046." (1).

The problem for the minister selling this project is that the South East Busway carries about 150,000 passengers per day (equal to about 125,000 cars per day). This figure exceeds the entire quoted 2046 daily traffic volume for Gympie Road, with capacity to spare.

We think re-purposing the toll tunnel as an exclusive busway instead would see a peak hour capacity four times greater than using the tunnel for cars, and only require a tunnel half the size.

Can the Transport Minister Bart Mellish please explain, if the Queensland Government is so deeply concerned about northside traffic congestion, why is the lowest peak hour capacity option (compared against busways and railways) being chosen here?

The only thing this project is going to bust is the Queensland Government's credibility on being able to put together a sensible transport plan for South East Queensland.

We call for an independent review of the project against public transport options, and for the next Queensland Government to terminate the project.

References:

(1) Budget green light for Gympie Road bypass tunnel to move to next stage
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/budget-green-light-for-gympie-road-bypass-tunnel-to-move-to-next-stage-20240610-p5jkln.html

"Preliminary research by NBI has the support of Queensland Treasury. It estimates 40,000 vehicles would use the toll tunnel every day and there is a "strong rationale" for such a project in a growing city like Brisbane."

(2) South East Busway Extension - Rochedale to Springwood
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Projects/S/South%20east%20busway%20extension/Pdf_sebx_project_guide_intro_overview.pdf

"The South East Busway between Brisbane City and Eight Mile Plains is a success story – it carries more than 150 000 passengers per day or 35 million trips per year. Sections of the busway carry 18,000 passengers per hour. To carry the same number of people by car, nine lanes would have to be built."

(3) Why the Gympie Road Tunnel Does Not Make Basic Sense!
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15505.0

(4) A Gympie Road Toll Tunnel will monetise congestion, not bust it
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15218.msg274205#msg274205

(5) Northern Busway - Archived Full Documents
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14786.msg261505#msg261505

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

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Allocating $7 Billion for a toll tunnel in 2024...