RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Well, even if one was against foreign imports, was it possible to use the WA Train Manufacturing Facility? Even for a portion of the order?

It's a Red Team government over there too.

Bellevue Railcar Manufacturing and Assembly Facility
WA railcar program
https://www.buildingfortomorrow.wa.gov.au/projects/bellevue-railcar-manufacturing-and-assembly-facility/

Quote$46 million
Total budget

^^ Seems a little low for the total cost of the Perth Bellevue facility. According to ABC the QLD Torbanlea facility cost  $237 million. That's ~ 5x the cost of the Perth facility. What's different?

QuoteThe WA Railcar program is delivering 246 new C-Series Railcars and six new Australind rail cars over a 10 year contract with more than 130 workers currently employed at the Bellevue workshop.

^ Perth facility seems in a position to produce a large order of similar trains as well.

https://www.wa.gov.au/government/media-statements/McGowan-Labor-Government/McGowan-Government's-first-locally-built-METRONET-Railcar-leaves-facility-20220328

The Perth facility is busy building the C Series trains, they wouldn't have the capacity to build the QTMP trains. Let alone the fact the QTMP design is some time from being finalised.

Perth is a stupid idea. Any issues becomes an expensive fix. Perth found this out with their qld built trains. They had no other option at the time. Now they have their own local facility. As has been said they also have their own rollingstock orders.

Cost issues is down to tmr miss management. They simply do not have any experience in rail, do not have their own in-house departments or do not use them, project teams don't talk to other project teams and are choosing to outsource projects. From what I have been told some has been inflation but other price increases have come from oversights.

There is nothing wrong with ordering overseas or off the shelf trains if done right. We got lucky with the 160/260 fleet as Perth first came across most of the issues and we jumped onto their tooling. We did have issues but they were able to be rectified both locally at Redbank (at a cheaper cost which can no longer be done) or sending back to Maryborough depending on the issue - and I am not referring to the ac units. So even with us sharing similar fleets based on the same platform there are some big differences between them.

If you cheap out you get crap. You go overseas for cost savings so you aren't going to spend more money on better fleets. As others have said it's not too bad in the overall scope but the way they tried to hide it. And the excuses provided were simply bullsh%t pr spin which anyone with railway knowledge would know.

QuoteThe Perth facility is busy building the C Series trains, they wouldn't have the capacity to build the QTMP trains. Let alone the fact the QTMP design is some time from being finalised.

This is a good point, but it does assume that no option for a larger, expanded, or second WA facility to take the QLD order could exist.

Perth Facility $46 million, order 246 41 x 6-car trains*
QLD Facility $237 million, order 65 x 6-car trains

Doesn't this ~ 5x cost difference imply that, in theory, the QLD Government could have paid the WA Government to build an additional or expanded train manufacturing facility in WA to take on the QLD order (+ $46 million), and still have ~ $191 million spare? I'm not suggesting the order should be here or there, but its an obvious question to ask given the wide difference.

I'm scratching my head about how Perth can get their facility for just $46 million..? There must be some major differences between the two facilities.

Extract


Source: WA Railcar Program Fact Sheet
https://www.metronet.wa.gov.au/Portals/31/Project%20Documents/Railcars/WA%20Railcar%20Program%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

* Updated figures

246 ?  It is 246 rail cars NOT 246 six car sets

246/6 = 41 six car sets (82 3 car sets)

Queensland is doing full manufacturing.  WA the trains are ' flat-pak ' ...

Do you think there is a typo somewhere, Ozbob?

It appears here https://www.buildingfortomorrow.wa.gov.au/projects/bellevue-railcar-manufacturing-and-assembly-facility/

and also in the subtitles of the fact sheet

QuoteMETRONET's $1.6 billion Railcar Program will deliver 246 new C-series railcars to service new projects and replace older A-series trains. Additionally, six new diesel railcars will be delivered to replace the existing Australind Service between Perth and Bunbury.

https://www.metronet.wa.gov.au/Portals/31/Project%20Documents/Railcars/WA%20Railcar%20Program%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

^ as I explained above 246 rail cars = 41 six car sets ( or 82 3 car sets ).

WA uses slightly different terminology, plus 246 sounds better for the spin! 

Thanks for clarifying. 

QuoteQueensland is doing full manufacturing.  WA the trains are ' flat-pak ' ...

Where are the flat-packs coming from? France?

Not sure but here is the clue it is assembly although there is local content.

QuoteThe new railcars will be built at an assembly facility in Bellevue

https://www.metronet.wa.gov.au/news/latest-news/signed-sealed-delivered-from-2022-perths-new-c-series-trains-1

QuoteWith the shells of the trains being built in India, bogies made in WA and AC units in Germany, the new C-Series trains are going to be assembled and equipped with Pyrotek solutions at Bellevue in Western Australia

^

Pyrotek part of largest rolling-stock project in WA history

https://www.pyroteknc.com/case-studies/pyrotek-part-of-largest-rolling-stock-project-in-wa-history/

If you look at the diagram that #metro posted it is an assembly work flow.

This information is not presented up front by the WA Government, but now you all know.
These are really flat-pak trains. Bit different from the way it is spun ... 

Hey Minister Bailey et al.  Suggest you start talking about 390 new rail carriages!

  

Quote from: kram0 on July 15, 2023, 17:43:38 PMI personally would rather NGR's made in India considering this astronomic cost and put the change into our failing health system and the police force.

We cannot have a jobs at any cost mentality. This blow out could have funded other major projects and employed more people in the process and produced a better outcome for Queensland.

What a joke.

Where are you finding all the extra qualified workers for the health system? Hint: they don't exist. Probably get a bit OT for this thread, but Australia has placed excessive reliance on migrant healthcare workers for decades now, not training local staff, and now the migrant stream is drying up, we're flapped. Spending an extra $2 bil on the health system won't make it better if there's no staff to employ.

There has been a lot of changes with Downer over the last year

https://www.railexpress.com.au/gamuda-completes-downer-edi-acquisition/

As well as future changes and involvement with the Korean train manufacturer and John Holland

https://johnholland.com.au/news-and-media/john-holland-to-support-a-new-era-of-train-manufacturing-in-queensland

Thus a lot outsourced.

 

Quote from: achiruel on July 16, 2023, 05:48:48 AM

Quote from: kram0 on July 15, 2023, 17:43:38 PMI personally would rather NGR's made in India considering this astronomic cost and put the change into our failing health system and the police force.

We cannot have a jobs at any cost mentality. This blow out could have funded other major projects and employed more people in the process and produced a better outcome for Queensland.

What a joke.

Where are you finding all the extra qualified workers for the health system? Hint: they don't exist. Probably get a bit OT for this thread, but Australia has placed excessive reliance on migrant healthcare workers for decades now, not training local staff, and now the migrant stream is drying up, we're flapped. Spending an extra $2 bil on the health system won't make it better if there's no staff to employ.

Oh there are staff to employ. My wife is a Doctor with Queensland Health, and they are letting a lot of qualified Doctors walk, as they are not offering permanent contracts, just temporary (rolling 12 month) agreements for a lot of Doctors especially in SEQ. She's has permanent but seen many walk who are very good at what they do.

As for the trains, I will always prefer locally manufactured, but not at any cost. Tax payer value, has to be a contributing factor.

This deal does not seem a good one for Queensland.

Anyway the extra 2 billion could have gone towards other public transport projects. It's a real shame that the Government has taken this path.

Can somebody clarify if this extra $2bn is in fact for periods following what was already contemplated?

If so, I cannot see that it represents a drastic blowout (particularly if it doesn't relate to anything the State will incur for another 20-30 years).  The whole arrangement is expensive but if the scope has become proportionately more expansive with the cost I don't have any new problem with this.

^ my understanding is the cost increase is due to ' 10 km of test track ' and maintenance of the QTMP trains from the original 15 year period to around 35 years.

Quote from: SurfRail on July 17, 2023, 11:04:40 AMCan somebody clarify if this extra $2bn is in fact for periods following what was already contemplated?

If so, I cannot see that it represents a drastic blowout (particularly if it doesn't relate to anything the State will incur for another 20-30 years).  The whole arrangement is expensive but if the scope has become proportionately more expansive with the cost I don't have any new problem with this.

As I understood it they added an option for an extension to the contract if the performance levels have been met.  The focus should be on "Is this expensive for the service rendered" not Click Bait "Blowout" BS.  But that would take research on behalf of the journalists.

Test track is not needed.

Quote from: ozbob on July 17, 2023, 11:08:15 AM^ my understanding is the cost increase is due to ' 10 km of test track ' and maintenance of the QTMP trains from the original 15 year period to around 35 years.

Test track is bs. They have the ncl. Unless it's north of Gladstone as Aurizon own the ncl Rocky-Gladstone which feeds onto my next point. I've also heard murmurs about the state trying to push manufactures to Rocky/provide incentive to create a new supply chain for QTMP and traveltrain rollingstock. But being the state no doubt they could be trying to hide expenditures for multiple projects within other projects like they have done with crr.

Minister Bailey mentioned " 10 km of test track " in an interview as reported.


About the 1:16 minute mark

I believe there will be a test track (I thought it was only a couple km rather than 10km though) to allow (lower speed) testing away from the mainline, which is not uncommon for manufacturing facilities around the world. Much less planning, approvals etc required for early/lower speed testing vs going on the mainline.

Quote from: ozbob on July 17, 2023, 15:10:00 PMMinister Bailey mentioned " 10 km of test track " in an interview as reported.

About the 1:16 minute mark

I know he's mentioned it but all previous trains have been tested on the ncl including 160kph+ speed tests. It's not heavily patronised enough that they can't run testing. In the past that have hooked up certified trains should it fail it gets towed back. I'd be curious to know what this 10km test track actually is. Probably duplication.

https://twitter.com/JarrodBleijieMP/status/1680821761364074496

We could have had new fast train lines under construction to the Sunshine coast and Toowoomba by now, if the Government decided on train manufacturing overseas with assembly in Australia.

They could have also awarded the contract to Alstom where there are already trains being partially made in Australia.

In addition, Alstom would have been a better deal considering they own a lot of train tech patents.

The Premiers name was on the head of the Media Release.
She would have been briefed [I would assume].
Not to be briefed if your name is on a MR would be foolish at best.

The $7.1 billion figure quoted three times in the press release was old (incorrect) and the government issued the Media Release knowing full well the information it contained was false.

Maybe it's not the Premier.
Maybe it's ChatGPT who wrote the release, and the LLM model didn't have the latest figures.

 

Quote from: #Metro on July 18, 2023, 13:57:30 PMMaybe it's not the Premier.
Maybe it's ChatGPT who wrote the release, and the LLM model didn't have the latest figures.

 

They are likely to use AI tools, yet poor form when it comes to editing.

Quote from: verbatim9 on July 18, 2023, 11:32:53 AMWe could have had new fast train lines under construction to the Sunshine coast and Toowoomba by now, if the Government decided on train manufacturing overseas with assembly in Australia.

They could have also awarded the contract to Alstom where there are already trains being partially made in Australia.

In addition, Alstom would have been a better deal considering they own a lot of train tech patents.

Pure unsubstantiated rubbish.

Quote from: verbatim9 on July 18, 2023, 11:32:53 AMWe could have had new fast train lines under construction to the Sunshine coast and Toowoomba by now, if the Government decided on train manufacturing overseas with assembly in Australia.

They could have also awarded the contract to Alstom where there are already trains being partially made in Australia.

In addition, Alstom would have been a better deal considering they own a lot of train tech patents.

Hahahahahaha what a complete and utter load of bullsh%t. Many lines could have been upgraded or built by now but someone higher up in government has said no. The NCL has had many projects removed. For ages Townsville-Cairns kept having sleeper upgrade projects deferred (this would have maintained a more reliable timetable and less prone to delays). We had the same problem in brisbane too where it was wooden and to some extent steel sleepers mixed with cement sleepers. Suddenly a few track issues between Caboolture-Petrie with a number at Narangba suddenly brought forward those projects. Where the tilt crashed a few years back when the driver forgot his location was on a section of track that was intended to be straightened for 140kph running. The early 2000's a 200kph line to Toowoomba was done up with the intention of running tilts there ie they followed on from their ncl duties. This was around the same time Gympie-Caboolture was to be completely realigned for 160kph running Caboolture-Nambour. New fleets have been on the drawing block for ages aswell. The 160/260 fleet came off the back of a WA manufacturing deal that they had some input with due to transportation. The tilts even had an expansion program considered as part of the Toowoomba link/Nambour-Caboolture 160kph quad realignment/Bundaberg-Nambour realignments. Rollingstock issues only got worse for us when QR was privatised and we lost all in-house facilities. This included repair/DAA/overhaul work that was done at Redbank. Ipswich workshops are used every now and then but only for minor stuff. Mayne has slowly been losing its facilities as it gets resumed for CRR and those services moved elsewhere or outsourced. Oh but what about ATP in the suburban network blah blah blah that's been on the books since the mid 90's. It's one of the reasons why the IMU100/120 had atp provisions installed for future rollout. But hey. Still good to know you are still making bs comments as usual

A quick comparisons of costs

QTMP: $680k/car/year.
QLD(NGR): $320k/car/year
WA: $310k/car/year
NSW: $273k/car/year

Source - Skyscrapercity

^^Considering that WA also has local manufacturing incorporated, one has to wonder why it's double the cost in Qld.

Quote from: verbatim9 on July 19, 2023, 10:53:16 AM^^Considering that WA also has local manufacturing incorporated, one has to wonder why it's double the cost in Qld.

I would assume much of the additional cost are the actual facilities required to manufacture the trains. These facilities can be (and will be) used for future train orders, but they have been included in the same budget as the trains themselves.

But it's a considerable cost for a small manufacturing sector. Plus there is no guarantee that it will continue to be so.

Quote from: verbatim9 on July 19, 2023, 11:08:04 AMBut it's a considerable cost for a small manufacturing sector. Plus there is no guarantee that it will continue to be so.

Aren't they making this new facility to allow it to be leased to any contractor in the future. Unless they just stop having the trains be manufactured and maintained in QLD, it will continue to be used. It would be interesting to know what the split is between the facilities and the trains themselves.

It's also important to keep in mind the NGRs (and other trains) were manufactured in a vastly different economic environment. The construction and manufacturing sector has taken a large blow from covid and inflation and as such the prices are much higher than prior.

Rockhampton yards are also involved in this. As would be some sweetener deals for manufactures setting up their supply chain there. Ormeau mtce facility. The Maryborough manufacturing facility. The rollingstock itself. And not sure if they have announced the new stabling yard yet.

Quote from: verbatim9 on July 19, 2023, 10:53:16 AM^^Considering that WA also has local manufacturing incorporated, one has to wonder why it's double the cost in Qld.

What local manufacturing is incorporated in WA? There's barely any. It's the rail version of Ikea assembly.

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1683390511250325504

Mark Bailey apologises for delay in announcing $2 billion train cost blowout | 7NEWS

Couriermail --> Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk says she knew about $2.4 billion blowout $

QuoteA week after saying she would have to "double check", Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk has been forced to admit she knew of a $2.4 billion blowout in a rail program before the previous figure was released.

Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk has admitted she knew of the $2.4 billion blowout to Queensland's flagship train manufacturing program before a press release was circulated with the previous figure.

Transport Minister Mark Bailey faced widespread scrutiny this month for quietly updating the cost of the Queensland Train Manufacturing Program, which surged from $7.1 billion to $9.5 billion. ...

https://twitter.com/JarrodBleijieMP/status/1683683761236611073