RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: verbatim9 on April 10, 2023, 13:34:26 PMStation wise we have gone through this numerous times.

Wellcamp, Toowoomba, Gatton Rosewood, Ipswich, Redbank, Darra Indooroopilly, City, Airport.

Maybe a infill station at Helidon and another Green Field site depending on viability and potential population of these areas.

You might want to consider that not everyone agrees with your list. Wellcamp makes basically zero sense. There is not enough passenger movements through Wellcamp Airport to make a rail service viable. Run a bus to/from Toowomba City if you believe a public transit service is warranted.

If you read Under The Clocks (which Bob linked upthread) you'll see that a substantial amount of new build HSR track is required over and above the Inland Rail tunnel to get anything close to a 60 minute journey time Toowoomba to Roma St. (This often implies parkway stations between Rosewood and the range crossing, too.)

I think a good start here is something like Clocks' "Option 1". Basically, once IR is built we can get two more Spirit of Queensland* sets and run them through the new tunnel.

We're aiming for speed here with minimum infrastructure so the stopping pattern may also have to be pretty minimal: Toowoomba central, Gatton, Rosewood, Ipswich, Darra, Roma St. (I'm assuming a diesel train, hence Roma St only.)

Optionally with other stops than Gatton, depending - IR will bypass most other towns so they'd either need new parkway stations, or the passenger train takes the old slow alignment.

I thought a park-and-ride out near the junction at Gowrie would make sense but looking at it more closely I don't know where I'd put it, there's not really a good connection to the local road network. Wilsonton (Hogg St) would otherwise be OK but it's only a couple of km out of Toowoomba central. Maybe that'd still work for a lot of people. Certainly it's better than finding more space for parking in the Toowoomba CBD.

I'm skeptical about the utility of other stops inbound of Darra, but if the Toowoomba train is running in between Ipswich expresses which do stop at those stations then it's not really going to lose anything timetable-wise.

* edit: not exactly Spirit of Queensland set, but a similar DMU, obviously we don't need the sleeper cars

What in the horse sh%t am I reading here?

I simply just don't know where to start with the amount of bs and foam here.

Is this a good time to mention MagLev HTG?   

Bob, that has a better chance than some of the fantasy foam ideas being thrown around.

3 car sets and then stopping at multiple stations Ipswich-Brisbane. In other threads it's all about DOO to cut costs so what happens on a 6 car made up of 2x3 car sets? That's ignoring the rollingstock mtce facilities and rollingstock manufacturer. Roma Street/airport terminators? Fast trip times but at the same time adding in additional stations Ipswich-Toowoomba at some places that have stuff all patronage ie Wellcamp. Actually electrification is indeed a very big problem as it's not QR infrastructure. It's ARTC. QR crews won't touch it. That's an ARTC problem for them to sort out including electricity substations and feeds. Moving Toowoomba station? To an underground station? f**** me dead. The area is a flood plain. Dent street and the current station has gone under multiple times. Oh. And who is paying for this bullsh%t.



Inland Rail is designed for freight. Not passenger and little towns along it. Some people here need a big slap in the face to realise that. The old alignment will more than likely go once inland rail is built. State government has previously suggested this as a mtce cost cutting measure.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/toowoomba-to-brisbane-passenger-rail-strategic-business-case

The Australian and Queensland governments are working together to deliver the Toowoomba to Brisbane Passenger Rail Strategic Business Case.

Toowoomba is Australia's second largest inland city and is located about 125km from Brisbane's CBD. Existing passenger rail services between Toowoomba and Brisbane and through the Lockyer Valley are limited.

The Department of Transport and Main Roads and the Australian Government Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications are exploring ways to support current and future regional passenger connections and to enhance social and economic outcomes including access to employment, health and education services. 

The Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Communications and the Department of Transport and Main Roads are finalising a strategic business case to determine the merits and timing for improved passenger service connections in the Toowoomba to Brisbane corridor.

The strategic business case, comprises a Strategic Assessment of Service Requirement and a Preliminary Evaluation of options, which will:

. evaluate current and anticipated future capacity and demand for public transport services between Toowoomba and Brisbane

. investigate options for introducing new passenger rail services using existing and protected rail corridors

. consider the opportunity for integrating passenger rail services with future freight operations on the new Inland Rail infrastructure between Gowrie and Calvert

. identify preferred option(s) for future passenger services between Toowoomba and Brisbane

. identify staging and delivery options to suit the short, medium and long term demand and capacity of the existing transport network

. consider costs and benefits of the project.

Planning study map

Many stations flood on the QR network. We're still using them. Even new ones are not free of flood risk (e.g. CRR Albert Street).

If projects were always easy... there would be little need for engineers. ChatGPT or its derivative would be running things.


^ Not the End of The Universe ^(TM)

If flooding is a concern, mitigations should be considered. Groundbreaking. 

A new station location has merit. It's easier to connect the buses and its a major trip generator. It's a place you can have a coffee after your trip.

Member Gazza has put together a proposal, mentioned on this thread before. Credit where credit is due, it is a good proposal https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HvClv6kia5TC4WgRWNUbr_VCQsl-r29oghyyddtOJHg/edit?usp=sharing

Brunswick street was a drainage problem. And that's tracks. Not an entire train station. Toowoomba has channeled the flood plain through the centre of town. That's why there are no ground floor shops. It's why there are flood height markers around.

The Stops I would have would be

Toowoomba
Gatton
Laidley/Plainland
Rosewood
Darra
Walloon
Roma St
Then wherever....

Basically, thought process Is that Toowoomba and Gatton are must do of course.

Plainland and Laidley is actually building up (There's a bunnings warehouse out there!) so would be a parkway type station, which is 1.5km from Laidley/ 6km from Plainland so has enough of a catchment to support a stop and future growth.

Rosewood and Walloon are so you can get rid of the Rosewood Shuttle. In exchange for the loss of the shuttle and the closure of Karrabin and Thagoona, you get a fulltime express service to Brisbane.
(Ipswich services are extended to Thomas St and Wulkuraka, platforms extended at these stations)

The only suburban stop needed in Brisbane is Darra to interchange with the Springfield line. If you need to get to Toowong or Indro, then change trains at Darra.

I left out Helidon, Grantham and Forest Hill because the population of these stops is too low / they don't sit on the new alignment anyway.

In terms of journey times, 90 mins is achievable in the long term, but it is dependent on the two ARTC tunnels, and also IMO, a Deviation from Riverview to Darra, following the Goodna Bypass corridor. This would in effect quad this section and would knock out Redbank, Goodna, Gailes and Wacol.

Agree that an underground station in Toowoomba is unnecessary. Just build a transit mall on Station street in between Grand Central and the Station. Easy acess to both and you've just saved $500m compared to building an underground station.

(You CAN do underground station in flood zones, but it requires flood barriers to be installed at the station entrances, as was going to be done at Yeerongpilly. But whhhhhhhy. You really want a European town square that badly / be slightly closer to Grand Central to go to that expense?)

Fortitude Valley floods due to bad drainage. But I think the idea is to not replicate problems from the 1900s. They didn't have accurate flood modelling, or as much regard for human safety back then.  Today it looks like they build to a higher standard to avoid flooding, which is why you see stuff like this these days:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-23.411843,150.4990273,3a,75y,41.28h,87.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sre9WUJzB-ksiWwbOi7lqqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

But realistically, judging by the way inland rail is going this is not going to be open till the late 2030s at the soonest.

Either way, it will be criminal if the feds and Qld State Government cannot get an agreement together to have diesel sets (like in Victoria) running on the new inland rail.

Agree HTC, too many foamy ideas. Let's be realistic in what the Government will pay for and aim for an hourly (half hourly in peak) diesel service between the two cities. This can and should be operational by 2032.

 

Quote from: kram0 on April 11, 2023, 11:01:44 AMThis can and should be operational by 2032.

Well let's hope they get digging on the new tunnel pretty soon! The existing range crossing has about 40 km of track between Helidon and Harlaxton and I understand the speed limit on a lot of that is 30 or 40 km/h, so right now that's basically an hour right there even if a tilting train can go 10 km/h faster than normal. And it's still 100 ish km to the CBD from Helidon.

Quote from: aldonius on April 11, 2023, 12:17:50 PM

Quote from: kram0 on April 11, 2023, 11:01:44 AMThis can and should be operational by 2032.

Well let's hope they get digging on the new tunnel pretty soon! The existing range crossing has about 40 km of track between Helidon and Harlaxton and I understand the speed limit on a lot of that is 30 or 40 km/h, so right now that's basically an hour right there even if a tilting train can go 10 km/h faster than normal. And it's still 100 ish km to the CBD from Helidon.

Plenty of hybrid power regional trains to make it all very doable fleet wise - e.g. https://www.mobility.siemens.com/global/en/portfolio/rail/rolling-stock/commuter-and-regional-trains/alternative-drives.html

And their price/fleet lifespan still makes it unattractive. All comes back to cost.

What's the lifespan?

QuoteWell let's hope they get digging on the new tunnel pretty soon!

If a diesel train is in a tunnel won't it need major ventilation to remove the fumes?

There is no need to use hybrid trains here, especially for a short distance, and network integration. Furthermore, there is easy access to electricity networks between Toowoomba and Brisbane which makes electrification the best and only option. 

Quote from: #Metro on April 11, 2023, 14:56:44 PM

QuoteWell let's hope they get digging on the new tunnel pretty soon!

If a diesel train is in a tunnel won't it need major ventilation to remove the fumes?

Yes!

Quote from: #Metro on April 11, 2023, 14:56:44 PM

QuoteWell let's hope they get digging on the new tunnel pretty soon!

If a diesel train is in a tunnel won't it need major ventilation to remove the fumes?

Well yeah, since inland rail freight trains will use Diesel locos.

Quote from: Gazza on April 11, 2023, 15:02:46 PM

Quote from: #Metro on April 11, 2023, 14:56:44 PM

QuoteWell let's hope they get digging on the new tunnel pretty soon!

If a diesel train is in a tunnel won't it need major ventilation to remove the fumes?

Well yeah, since inland rail freight trains will use Diesel locos.

Different ventilation requirements needed for freight as opposed to passenger rail. It would need significant upgrades to meet regular  passenger services.

QuoteRail Tunnel Requirements.

Freight-only rail tunnels are designed to accommodate the transportation of goods, such as heavy equipment, large vehicles, and hazardous materials. These tunnels generally have larger clearances, wider tracks, and fewer restrictions on the types of cargo that can be transported through them. They may also have less strict safety requirements, as freight trains generally travel at lower speeds and have less strict passenger safety regulations to follow.

In contrast, passenger rail tunnels are designed for the transportation of people, and therefore have different requirements. Passenger rail tunnels typically have stricter safety regulations, including requirements for fire suppression, emergency exits, and air quality control. They also have more narrow clearances, since passenger trains are generally smaller and lighter than freight trains, and operate at higher speeds.

I posted this video over in the Inland Rail thread.

I think the tunnel (if ever built, and that is a big IF) would be be OK for passenger trains.

Inland Rail Toowoomba tunnel  22 Jul 2020

Shows a double-stack dual gauge tunnel.

Here is a slightly related question(s)

If (big if) the Toowoomba to Port/other intermodal hubs was electrified (good connection to power network) would switching locos at Toowoomba make sense and would it remove the ventilation costs in the tunnels? Might help with the concerns around noise?

Not saying this is a good idea just wondering the logistics of it?

India - double stack under wires.

Trains still noisy. But better in terms of loco emissions.

That's my thinking as well as it can then allow for electric passenger services to Wellcamp when the time comes, without significant infrastructure upgrades.

Quote from: Gazza on April 11, 2023, 14:06:58 PMWhat's the lifespan?

Depends on the batteries and technology. At present 5-10 years before full battery replacement is required. They don't last forever and lose performance over time.  Battery technology is constantly evolving and currently australia does not have a market at all for battery/hybrid trains. Just take a look at the difficulty in keeping EMU/SMU200 operational. Not to mention their limitations.

True, but I'm thinking in the 10-15+ years it will take to build this the battery tech will improve and so will lifespan.

Certainly, I think we will see better battery tech before we see a fully driverless bus 

QuoteWellcamp makes basically zero sense. There is not enough passenger movements through Wellcamp Airport to make a rail service viable. Run a bus to/from Toowomba City if you believe a public transit service is warranted.

Indeed. The Wellcamp airport rail link idea needs to be given a rest on RBoT.
There is one member who loves the idea, and the vast majority who think it' stupid (for decades at least)

Here's the reality.
GC Airport gets 6.5 million passengers per annum (link) Will get rail eventually.

Wellcamp airport has a capacity for 500,000 passengers per annum (link)

So even at full capacity, it would still only be 7% of the passenger movements of the GC.

But right now? Wellcamp is Under 100,000 per year.

But lets imagine the airpot was at capacity and had 500,000 per annum. That's still under 1400 people per day.
Still too low to pay the operational cost of a rail service.

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on April 11, 2023, 16:33:23 PM

Quote from: Gazza on April 11, 2023, 14:06:58 PMWhat's the lifespan?

Depends on the batteries and technology. At present 5-10 years before full battery replacement is required. They don't last forever and lose performance over time.  Battery technology is constantly evolving and currently australia does not have a market at all for battery/hybrid trains. Just take a look at the difficulty in keeping EMU/SMU200 operational. Not to mention their limitations.

What about bimode trains, something similar to the new NSW regional trains? Operate on electric power under the wires and diesel outside them. No batteries required (I think?).

QuoteWhat about bimode trains, something similar to the new NSW regional trains? Operate on electric power under the wires and diesel outside them. No batteries required (I think?).

Bi-mode is a really good option. Can run under sparks to Rosewood, then onto the un-electrified section beyond that. Neutral whether the service goes via Inland Rail (no sparks) or via a new tunnel into Toowoomba (potentially sparks).

Without a doubt it would improve over time but you will still need a market/industry to support it. Otherwise it becomes stupidly expensive with a lot of risk attached for whoever wants to enter the market and for a state to back it. That's where things get complicated here with the varying gauges and states backing built locally in this state nonsense. I don't see a manufacture starting up in Queensland to build 10 hybrid trains for Brisbane-Toowoomba nor for another state to get in on the action (and vice versa). If you are going to commit for a large order it makes more sense but where else would they run? Townsville-Cairns? Rocky-Gladstone to avoid aurizon track ohle fees? Can the extra mtce on the fleet life be better than just getting a reconfigured seat layout of an NGR3? Mt Isa-Townsville with a different internal layout? Then comes issues. Is that something that can be processed locally or does it have to travel 1000km back to the manufacture - if there is one here - to sort out.

In regards to combo diesel electric trains that would be the most likely and realistic move. But still runs the gauntlet of cost (outright/running/mtce) and how much of a tightass the state wants to be in regards to train length, traction motors and a few other things. Also has the same problem of the hybrids in terms of low order numbers.

Having said that it all depends how the network and mtce facilities are setup at the time.

I wonder if WA would ever be interested in replacing the Australind/AvonLink with bimode trains? Maybe QR & TransWA could get together and order jointly for economies of scale. Not sure that would ever happen, but it could be worth a thought. 

Not sure how much of a economy of scale you would get with the Avonlink/Prospector since they are SG.

Quote from: Gazza on April 11, 2023, 19:49:12 PMNot sure how much of a economy of scale you would get with the Avonlink/Prospector since they are SG.

Oops 

Stadler Rail does tailor made train orders. Swiss company. Can do bi-modal as well.

FLIRT160

QuoteThe FLIRT160 is a single-decker regional train. The name is everything with the FLIRT, the Fast Light Intercity and Regional Train. As a regional train with a maximum speed of 160 km/h, the FLIRT has been running successfully in a variety of climates, from Africa to the Arctic Circle, since 2004.

The FLIRT160 is a single-decker, flexibly customisable regional train. The lightweight construction in aluminium, maintenance-friendly construction and thousands of proven components help to keep running, energy and maintenance costs low. Trainsets of between two and six carriages are possible in standard and broad gauge, with an electric drive, diesel drive and even in a bimodal design. The design of the FLIRT can also be customised very flexibly in terms of seating capacity, passenger flow or interior design.

Stadler received its first order for electrically powered FLIRT trains from SBB in 2002.

Custom Service

QuoteTailor-made multiple units are characterised by the same features as train which are based on model series and produced in large series. One-off production models and small series from Stadler bear all the hallmarks of optimised individualisation and quality.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/detail-all/triebzuege/51/

They even do rack railways for Alpine Railways. 

^ maybe you should send those links to the Hon Mark Bailey MP Minister for Motorways.

Wouldn't meet aus crash standards.

Quote from: achiruel on April 11, 2023, 19:28:26 PMI wonder if WA would ever be interested in replacing the Australind/AvonLink with bimode trains? Maybe QR & TransWA could get together and order jointly for economies of scale. Not sure that would ever happen, but it could be worth a thought. 

WA currently has a new Australind on order!

I believe Stadler Rail did the Matangi train set for Wellington NZ.

Yeah I'm not sure what the big concern with a small order is?

Of course the value for money is not as good as getting 100 trains, and I know, there is stuff you need to think about, but we are certainly not the only operator with a small fleet.

If you can get the train from Brisbane to Toowoomba in 90 mins, A fleet of 3 or 4 trains could provide a 60 min headway.

You would hopefully order a QLD wide inter-city fleet to boost regional services beyond the crap frequencies we have to day!!

Perhaps, but the fit out of a 90 min duration commuter service to Toowoomba differ to a 4-6 hour service to Maryborough/Bundy/Rocky.

Problem with small orders is the spare parts stock and that adds even more to the cost long term. Take the 200's. Very few parts are swappable between them and the 220's. If you include the whole fleet aircon units, window panes, seat/seat mounts/fabrics/padding, radios, filters, light fittings and bulbs, cctv systems, brake pads, cab fittings, hand rails, floor fixtures, door fittings and fixtures are different and the list just goes on and on. For over a decade QR was getting parts manufactured to keep the emus running.