RAIL - Back On Track Forum

^^ Would this mean they won't be able to run to Ferny Grove due to the Gaythorne issue?

Let's get it right with these proposed new trains....3 door sided carriages 

Quote from: nathandavid88 on February 09, 2023, 15:30:34 PM^^ Would this mean they won't be able to run to Ferny Grove due to the Gaythorne issue?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I always understood:

- there is no technical issue with NGRs running to Ferny Grove per se;
- Gaythorne would need platform staff to enable this to work;
- since timetabled Ferny Grove services can be delivered without needing NGRs (ie using the other half of the fleet) it saves money to not do this right now; and
- it can be dealt with eventually when enough pre-NGR trains have been retired and replaced with the QTMP trains.

Quote from: SteelPan on February 09, 2023, 15:46:39 PMLet's get it right with these proposed new trains....3 door sided carriages 

Not going to happen.  They have to be compatible with the CRR PSD positions (3 doors per carriage face won't be) and a middle door at some platforms would likely be precluded by platform geometry given the carriage length of 24m.

When it comes to crr opening expect to see rollingstock sectorised aswell. Redcliffe/Caboolture/Nambour/Beenleigh/Gold Coast will effectively be NGR1/NGR2 only. You'll see them elsewhere due to numbers but their core will be crr. Ferny Grove-Beenleigh is more staffing issues with frequency than rollingstock limitations. There has been some interesting rumours about getting around this such as raising the middle of platforms temporarily like we have seen around the network already with the humps and then using CCTV back at Bowen Hills to notify crews of the next train about passengers that require assistance or cutting staff on other lines to prop up those now heavily used by the NGR1/NGR2 fleet.

It would be a touch overkill to run nine-car trains to Gympie North post CRR, so would that mean three-car or six-car trains operating as shuttles to Gympie North (and possibly beyond) -- requiring a train transfer at Nambour for the journey further south to Brisbane?

All depends on the network setup at the time. But more than likely 9 cars would go to the coast while Beerwah-Gympie would become its own shuttle. Maybe doing something similar to the current Caboolture/Nambour setup where every second/third/fourth/whichever one continues on to Gympie. Maybe same platform transfer for those transferring to the shuttle. To many factors and that's well we'll well down the line.

Here is some advice to the Noosa MP, Sandy Bolton from Minister Mark Bailey as recent as last month:

"I draw your attention to the following planning studies, jointly funded by the Australian and Palaszczuk Governments ......

"$1.5 million Brisbane to Sunshine Coast (B2SC) Rail Corridor Strategy. This strategy will guide future non-infrastructure and infrastructure investment opportunities to improve network capacity, travel times, safety, resilience and efficiency for passengers and freight. The strategy will also consider the forecast population growth in the Brisbane, Moreton Bay, Sunshine Coast, Noosa and Gympie regions with increases in service frequency between Gympie and Nambour to be considered. The strategy is expected to be completed in 2023."

So, it's factored in.

Quote from: Stillwater on February 09, 2023, 18:40:02 PMIt would be a touch overkill to run nine-car trains to Gympie North post CRR, so would that mean three-car or six-car trains operating as shuttles to Gympie North (and possibly beyond) -- requiring a train transfer at Nambour for the journey further south to Brisbane?

We need inter-city and regional fleets like NSW...without the industrial issues.

https://twitter.com/StevenJMiles/status/1625309710403649537

Quote from: Stillwater on February 09, 2023, 18:40:02 PMso would that mean three-car or six-car trains operating as shuttles to Gympie North (and possibly beyond) -- requiring a train transfer at Nambour for the journey further south to Brisbane?

I imagine the transfer would happen at Beerwah right?

I do suspect the AM and PM Gympielander on weekdays may remain as is, and separated from the standard Nambour services by operating via Northgate on its own (existing) paths.  It alternatively could be treated as part of the Traveltrain network traffic by control.

QuoteRoses are red, violets are blue, made in Queensland is what we do.

Towards a National Local Content Policy September 2022
https://ara.net.au/wp-content/uploads/20220907-Towards-a-National-Local-Content-Policy-Report_Final.pdf

In the case of TransPerth, who will now not be sending their orders to Queensland (due to state parochialism)...



So it is not hard to see that insistence on in-State production would see costs go up. They charge whatever they can get.

The founders of the Australian Constitution realised the problems that State Parochialism could cause for trade between Australian states. Hence, a clause banning state-based import taxes (tariffs) forms s92 of the Australian Constitution.

Quote92. Trade within the Commonwealth to be free
On the imposition of uniform duties of customs, trade, commerce, and intercourse among the States, whether by means of internal carriage or ocean navigation, shall be absolutely free.

[...]

Australian Constitution. Chapter IV. Finance And Trade.
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Senate/Powers_practice_n_procedures/Constitution/chapter4

It's not always an option to have out of state tenders. WA has a massive problem when it came to transporting as there is no way to transport rollingstock back to QLD via rail without change of gauge. Relatively cheap and easy fixes became expensive during the rollout or slower due to work being done in WA. We saw similar problems here after QR was privatised. When we lost Redbank services Ipswich workshops took up the slack and more work was shifted to Maryborough. Some problems ended up taking sets out of revenue for months at a time. This is another reason queensland is going forward with a dedicated facility because at the moment issues with rollingstock is having a negative affect on rollingstock availability because they simply can't get into Maryborough for simple work because of their existing schedule and access.

There's a difference insisting on local manufacturing, and on there being a lack of maintenance facilities close to where the trains actually operate. 

I have no problem with Wulkuraka or Ormeau, which are / will be purpose built to support the trains they will sustain.  These are probably better arrangements than relying on old, constrained and/or poorly laid out facilities like Maryborough, Redbank and a bunch of other smaller locations in the suburban area.

I expect in future some fairly substantial work will be needed at Mayne to provide a similar set up to those 2 sites, in order to sustain whatever comes after the current 65 trains in procurement and the new long distance kit. 

Very different proposition to insisting the things be built in Queensland to begin with.

Sunshine Valley Gazette 15th February 2023 page 14




 

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/events/han/2023/2023_02_21_DAILY.pdf

Questions Without Notice

Mr SAUNDERS: My question is of the Premier and Minister for the Olympic and Paralympic
Games. Will the Premier update the House on how the Queensland government is bringing
manufacturing back to Queensland?

Ms PALASZCZUK: Mr Speaker, you heard from the Treasurer—I thank the member for
Maryborough for that question—how well our economy is going in this state and I am proud to lead a
government that has nation-leading growth where over 480,000 people are now into work compared to
when we were elected in 2015. Over eight years I am absolutely proud of our track record when it
comes to people in employment and giving people the dignity of a job. I am also very proud that we are
bringing manufacturing back to Queensland, and what does that mean for Maryborough?

Mr Saunders: Jobs, jobs, jobs!

Ms PALASZCZUK: That is right; I take that interjection: it means jobs, jobs and more jobs and
$7 billion worth of making trains in this state. I had the opportunity to go to Maryborough recently with
the member for Maryborough. In fact, our whole cabinet went there because of the significance of this
announcement, because as a government we get out across the state; we will be taking our cabinet
across the different parts of this state this year again. We were able to meet with the men and women
who work at Downer. Generations of families are working at Downer and they are absolutely proud to
know that today they have certainty for their livelihoods and their families' livelihoods. Over a century
ago Maryborough was one of the significant hubs of Queensland, but what we saw during the Newman
years were massive cuts to jobs, services—

Opposition members interjected.

Mr SPEAKER: Order!

Honourable members interjected.

Mr SPEAKER: Order, members! Members will come to order!

Ms PALASZCZUK: That is one of the reasons that the mighty member for Maryborough was
elected into this House because he stood up to those savage cuts to services and now we see
Maryborough and the region thriving. The $7.1 billion Queensland-made Train Manufacturing Program
will see new trains being rolled onto the South-East Queensland network by 2026, supporting 800
jobs—800 jobs in a regional centre—and we know that this—

Mr Crawford: Disability compliant!

Ms PALASZCZUK: I take that interjection from the minister: disability compliant. I understand
the dignity of a stable, secure job for generations to come. We are going to link in with the schools to
make sure that those young people can get jobs locally, they can raise their families locally and they
will not have to leave Maryborough.

Update 27th Feb 2023

Queensland Train Manufacturing Program
Torbanlea manufacturing facility site investigations notice: February 2023
Site investigations in Torbanlea

From early March 2023, site investigations will commence within the manufacturing facility site and adjoining local streets to progress the design.

The map below shows the locations of the site investigation areas including Ritchie Road, Burgowan Road, and a section of the Bruce Highway. Investigations in all areas will continue intermittently until mid-2023.

Work hours
Site investigations will take place Monday to Friday, between 7am and 5pm each shift, weather permitting.



https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/programs/queensland-train-manufacturing-program

Update 27th Feb 2023

Queensland Train Manufacturing Program
Ormeau rail facility site investigations notice: February 2023
Site investigations underway in Ormeau

In January 2023, the Queensland Train Manufacturing Program (QTMP) team commenced site investigations on Prairie Road and Goldmine Road to determine potential vehicle access points to the rail facility site

From March 2023, site investigations will commence within the rail facility site to progress the design.

The map below shows the locations of the site investigation areas near Prairie Road and Goldmine Road. Investigations in all areas will continue intermittently until mid-2023.

Work hours

Site investigations will take place Monday to Friday, between 7am and 5pm each shift, weather permitting.



https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/programs/queensland-train-manufacturing-program

Trouble in paradise?

====

Melbourne Age --> Downer EDI interim chairman to meet investors following board purge $

QuoteDowner EDI's interim chairman Mark Menhinnitt will meet with major investors this week as the embattled engineering group attempts to mend relations with the market following the exit of its chairman and finance chief after a shock profit warning that sent its stock plunging.

Menhinnitt was forced into the role after Downer's long-serving chairman Mark Chellew resigned on Friday with immediate effect. ...

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1632377779458310144

Couriermail --> Qld Train Manufacturing Program taps Hyundai Rotem for design $

QuoteA major Korean train manufacturer has emerged as a key subcontractor in the state government's flagship "Queensland-made" $7bn election promise to build a fleet of 65 new trains in Maryborough over the next decade.

The Sunday Mail can reveal Hyundai Rotem, a Korean-based manufacturer of rolling stock, will be part of the major Queensland Train Manufacturing Program through a deal with Downer.

Downer was announced as the preferred applicant for the project last month. ...

... Mr Bailey said the Korean manufacturer's involvement would not involve manufacturing – but as a "design partner". ...

Good. I can't see a problem with this. Still QLD manufactured, but designed by a well known and reputable international train manufacturer.

Design is the intangible part of the manufacturing process.

IMHO this means the train is partly manufactured overseas.

Using an overseas design is essentially an import of intellectual property.

Business Korea --> Hyundai Rotem Close to Landing Big Train Order from Australia

QuoteHyundai Rotem is close to winning a multi-trillion-won motor car project in Australia. 

A consortium led by Hyundai Rotem and Downer, an Australian transportation company, was selected in early February as the preferred bidder for a railway project promoted by the Queensland government in Australia. ...

 

Quote from: timh on March 12, 2023, 04:45:27 AMGood. I can't see a problem with this. Still QLD manufactured, but designed by a well known and reputable international train manufacturer.

Yo, this mob do a real lot of trains.  Nothing at all wrong tapping into their design experience and expertise, in fact makes a lot of sense.

The State Government haven't been entirely direct about it though.

Hansard 17 August 2022
Mr Walker

"It is also this side of the House that is bringing train manufacturing back to Maryborough, delivering Queensland-made trains made by Queensland manufacturing workers. A $7.1 billion Queensland-made trains manufacturing investment will see 65 new trains built here while also rejuvenating rail supply chains in our state—not from China, made in Queensland."

Not entirely true as it turns out.

I wonder where the Perth and Melbourne trains are being designed?

^ the trains will be built in Queensland. 

It is just that they forgot to mention that a lot of the design work will be collaborative with Hyundai Rotem.

Quote from: ozbob on March 12, 2023, 08:16:39 AM^ the trains will be built in Queensland. 

It is just that they forgot to mention that a lot of the design work will be collaborative with Hyundai Rotem.

Non issue IMO. If Downer wasn't selected there'd be no expectation of it being designed in QLD. The idea has always been a company designs it, where-ever that may be, and then the construction takes place in QLD at the new facility.

Quote from: #Metro on March 12, 2023, 08:13:28 AMI wonder where the Perth and Melbourne trains are being designed?

Perth is an Alstom Design, with 50% local content.  The plant is an assembly factory, doesn't build from scratch.
(Some cynics have suggested to me they are ' flat pak ' trains .. )

Vlocity trains are a local design and build.

HCMT are based on the Type A design used by CRRC Changchun. A lot of components manufactured locally but the train shells imported.

QTMP is a full local build (well that is how it is being presented).

The design only line is spin.
The Korean company said manufacture in their announcement.

"Hyundai Rotem's involvement was also detailed in a Business Korea magazine article last month, which said the company would be "in charge of manufacturing electric locomotives".
Courier-Mail story.

I'm not against them doing work that we clearly must lack the ability to do.
But don't deceive about it

There are always going to be some overseas components put in to any new trains here and in the rest of Australia. Aus simply doesn't have the efficiencies of scale to economically built many of the specialised parts required (traction equipment and so forth). That will always come from overseas (AAB, Hitachi etc). Much ado about nothing IMO.

Quote from: RowBro on March 12, 2023, 08:29:50 AM

Quote from: ozbob on March 12, 2023, 08:16:39 AM^ the trains will be built in Queensland. 

It is just that they forgot to mention that a lot of the design work will be collaborative with Hyundai Rotem.

Non issue IMO. If Downer wasn't selected there'd be no expectation of it being designed in QLD. The idea has always been a company designs it, where-ever that may be, and then the construction takes place in QLD at the new facility.

Totally agree! Let's learn from the global industry instead of trial and error at home!

Yep, very hard for companies like Downer EDI to build trains without knowing the tech and getting around expensive IP without a partner.

This is what I mentioned prior to the tender that it's mostly better to go with a major manufacturer than a smaller one because of tech and design IP.

Quote from: Jonno on March 12, 2023, 09:07:21 AM

Quote from: RowBro on March 12, 2023, 08:29:50 AM

Quote from: ozbob on March 12, 2023, 08:16:39 AM^ the trains will be built in Queensland. 

It is just that they forgot to mention that a lot of the design work will be collaborative with Hyundai Rotem.

Non issue IMO. If Downer wasn't selected there'd be no expectation of it being designed in QLD. The idea has always been a company designs it, where-ever that may be, and then the construction takes place in QLD at the new facility.

Totally agree! Let's learn from the global industry instead of trial and error at home!

Still a lot of manufacturing will take place overseas as Australia doesn't have the capability of manufacturing a lot of parts for vehicles and trains, unlike China, India, South Korea, Japan, US and Europe.

Saying that the only way we would have a long term and sustainable train manufacturing industry in Australia would be having a well established train manufacturer that has continual contracts to supply the Asia Pacific region, who has also access to important design elements connected to IP.

The manufacturing process would also need to be heavily automated due to continual increasing labour costs. Europe, US and Asia are  far ahead in that respect.

Realistically, if we want "100% made in Australia" for our trains then that means one company, based in one state.

Quote from: aldonius on March 12, 2023, 11:12:43 AMRealistically, if we want "100% made in Australia" for our trains then that means one company, based in one state.

Even then I doubt that all components would be 100%. Furthermore, it would depend on the preferred manufacturer of each state.

Here is a hypothetical. Why would Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore buy trains from Australia if they can get them elsewhere for a fraction of the price. This is why train manufacturing in Australia is unsustainable, due to lack of automation in the manufacturing process across sectors.

The geographical location of Australia may also play a part on why global manufactures are reluctant to set up shop here too.

Here is a link on google to some of the Hyundai Rotem train sets.

They make quite a variety, but that stylised image that Downer published definitely has some H. Rotem looks ..



Google >> https://railbotforum.org/yourls/4r