RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Ozbob, you're front page BT news today:

QuoteRail advocates say commuters are confused by the name - and they've come up with an alternative that would please Thomas the Tank Engine fans.

Brisbane Metro 'is no Metro': rail lobby says name must change
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-metro-is-no-metro-rail-lobby-says-name-must-change-20221205-p5c3qy.html

QuoteA spokesman for Brisbane City Council on Monday slammed the brakes on the suggestion of a new name.

"There's no plan to rename the Brisbane Metro," he said.

 

We're going to keep seeing nonsense like this for as long as BCC has anything to do with running the system.  Time to take their toys off them and limit their involvement to suburban bus stops, like every other council.  The State can just levy BCC ratepayers the amount BCC would otherwise contribute with a differential charge, same as the emergency services levy all ratepayers pay.  BCC has no special expertise in running a public transport system given how broken things are.

Interesting comment on BT article, even we don't agree 😂

Quotecr00kman 6 HOURS AGO

You'd think these rail boffins would know that there are countless metro systems in the world that run on tyres and not rail. Woolworths Metro isn't a rail system either.

https://youtu.be/TYr7BcH-9Hw

^^ Montreal uses concrete guide bars apparently not rails. So more like Adelaide O-Bahn.

But it's a train, as the vehicle cannot leave the guideway.

Brisbanetimes --> Brisbane Metro 'is no Metro': rail lobby says name must change

QuoteBrisbane's coming Metro needs to be renamed because it's a not a rail service like Metros in other capital cities and confuses people, a Queensland rail lobby group says.

"The Brisbane Metro isn't rail," Rail Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said.

"It's bus rapid transit. It's good bus rapid transit.

"But it's a real pity they called it the Brisbane Metro because it is misrepresenting what it really is." ...

" ... A spokesman for Brisbane City Council on Monday slammed the brakes on the suggestion of a new name.

"There's no plan to rename the Brisbane Metro," he said. ... "

I like a challenge, calling it the Brisbane Metro is wrong. 
It is deception by a LNP Administration.

Labor want the Council, here is another opportunity ...

Quote from: SurfRail on December 05, 2022, 16:45:58 PMWe're going to keep seeing nonsense like this for as long as BCC has anything to do with running the system.  Time to take their toys off them and limit their involvement to suburban bus stops, like every other council.  The State can just levy BCC ratepayers the amount BCC would otherwise contribute with a differential charge, same as the emergency services levy all ratepayers pay.  BCC has no special expertise in running a public transport system given how broken things are.

+1   

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1599758042949513216

Sent to all outlets:

'Brisbane Metro' name is misleading the public

6th December 2022

Good Morning,

Brisbanetimes has now published an article on the misrepresentation that the ' Brisbane Metro ' is.

Brisbane Metro 'is no Metro': rail lobby says name must change
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-metro-is-no-metro-rail-lobby-says-name-must-change-20221205-p5c3qy.html

This metro naming farce reinforces what is really wrong with public transport in Brisbane and SEQ. 

As commented by a RAIL Back On Track member on our forum https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=265294

QuoteWe're going to keep seeing nonsense like this for as long as BCC has anything to do with running the system.  Time to take their toys off them and limit their involvement to suburban bus stops, like every other council.  The State can just levy BCC ratepayers the amount BCC would otherwise contribute with a differential charge, same as the emergency services levy all ratepayers pay.  BCC has no special expertise in running a public transport system given how broken things are.

In the Brisbanetimes article, it is reported that

" ... A spokesman for Brisbane City Council on Monday slammed the brakes on the suggestion of a new name.
"There's no plan to rename the Brisbane Metro," he said. ... "

So it would appear that BCC is happy to continue the misrepresentation of what is very good bus rapid transit as something it is not? 
This could be another factor in a change of political stewardship in City Hall no doubt.

The ' Metro ' name came about from the initial rubber-tyre rail-based proposal that the former Lord Mayor Quirk promoted in 2016 Council Elections.  We demonstrated then it was a sham and con ( Lord Mayor Graham Quirk's 'Quack' Metro is a Dead Duck!  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11952.msg176602#msg176602 )  but this ' metro ' nonsense lingers.

Don't set up Brisbane as a national laughing stock LM Schrinner! 

It's BERT - Busway Electric Rapid Transit !

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on December 05, 2022, 12:37:42 PMSent to all outlets:

5th December 2022

Article now published on Independent Australia

Planned 'Brisbane Metro' is misleading the public

https://independentaustralia.net/business/business-display/planned-brisbane-metro-is-misleading-the-public,17039

By Robert Dow | 5 December 2022, 11:00am

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

====

Quote from: ozbob on November 26, 2022, 23:17:07 PMSent to all outlets:

BERT - Busway Electric Rapid Transit

26th November 2022

Greetings,

Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) uses dedicated busways/lanes to deliver more capacity, reliability and quality than conventional street running buses.  Brisbane has good busways and it does make sense to further improve Brisbane's BRT.  The introduction of the electric bi-articulated buses, together with the busway infrastructure updates will to do that.  Calling the BRT improvements the ' Brisbane Metro ' is simply incorrect.  It is not a metro, it is a specialised form of BRT.  Following feedback from the public, we have coined the term Busway Electric Rapid Transit (BERT) to more correctly describe the BRT improvements. 

The electric bi-articulated buses will be mixed with other conventional buses on the busways.  It is not a dedicated network as such, and it is not trains.  A true Metro is characterised by trains, high frequency and high capacity, on a dedicated network mostly heavy rail, sometimes rubber tyre trains.  It is quite likely that Brisbane will one day have a real metro system, such as Sydney Metro.  This will be the true Brisbane Metro.

RAIL Back On Track is certain that if we had a proper Public Transport Authority in place in Queensland, this Metro misrepresentation would not occur, and the the project would be described and promoted for what it really is.  It is time to drop the nonsensical  ' Brisbane Metro ' spin,  and promote the very successful BRT that Brisbane offers.

bertbus3.jpg

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=264890

ABC: HESS MAKES HISTORY WITH HIGH CAPACITY ELECTRIC VEHICLE

https://www.busnews.com.au/product-news/2212/hess-makes-history-with-high-capacity-electric-vehicle

Yes, it is a bus, a bi-articulated battery electric one, according to Hess.

 

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1599961279015579650

Ha ha, everyone knows the bulldust that is being spread now with the false ' metro '.

Sorry        but in the absence of any real political leadership, any colour, someone has to call it out.

BERT trended on Redditt I was told as well.

Sad though, that the opportunity to promote Brisbane as a world leader in bus rapid transit is being squandered by dumb politics.

Join in ... 

Best comment was "Bus Pro Max"

https://www.reddit.com/r/brisbane/comments/zczewq/brisbane_metro_is_no_metro_rail_lobby_says_name/

But as cringe as the metro name is, I dunno  how much airtime I'd give the issue considering whats going on around the network.

The @Team_Quirk con  ...
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=171516

2012 'Cleveland LR'




2014 'BaT'




2016 'Metro' errrr Nope!

 

Not only is Metro the wrong name it is the Wrong Vehicle!

Quote from: Jonno on December 06, 2022, 17:44:45 PMNot only is Metro the wrong name it is the Wrong Vehicle!

Come on, we've been over this. We know that you can't mix BRT and LRT at the volumes the busway sees, so to take that upgrade path would mean rolling out LRT simultaneously on all major corridors, with 40+ tph at Gabba Junction. What we've got is cheap by comparison and can be rolled out fairly incrementally.

Quote from: aldonius on December 06, 2022, 21:59:23 PM

Quote from: Jonno on December 06, 2022, 17:44:45 PMNot only is Metro the wrong name it is the Wrong Vehicle!

Come on, we've been over this. We know that you can't mix BRT and LRT at the volumes the busway sees, so to take that upgrade path would mean rolling out LRT simultaneously on all major corridors, with 40+ tph at Gabba Junction. What we've got is cheap by comparison and can be rolled out fairly incrementally.

There is no room to roll it out incrementally!! The 60 BERTS will choke the Buswsy! They will only move max 7000 people an hour at 2.5 min spacing! There no room for the other 9000 people per hour to fit in between! 

You are also assuming that all existing route on buswsy need to convert to Light Rail instead it being a single. 

Quote from: Jonno on December 06, 2022, 17:44:45 PMNot only is Metro the wrong name it is the Wrong Vehicle!

Certainly is in many respects to be called a ' metro '.

My purpose of posting the 3 videos above was to demonstrate just how haphazard public transport policy development is in Brisbane and SEQ.  There is a very strong case to bring BCC under the control of a proper Public Transport Authority.

The ' metro ' name stems for the ' Paris Metro like ' 2016 political con, which did flummox the Labor camp at the time.  It was easy to explain it was bullsh%t and we did at the time, the Labor outfit could not raise to the occasion, and Brisbane and the media were done over like amateurs.

I don't care what BCC say, the Brisbane Metro is not a metro, it is bus rapid transit and should be described as such.  I am very tired of the political crap from BCC ( I delineate them from the TfB transport staff, who must be acutely embarrassed with this political nonsense ..)

Brisbanetimes --> 'Just common sense': Lord mayor wants Metro bus service extended to airport

QuoteWorkers and tourists should be able to catch the Brisbane Metro to and from the airport before the 2032 Olympic Games, Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner will tell business groups on Wednesday.

As Brisbane City Council finalises plans for the launch of Metro rapid bus services, Schrinner is ramping up the network extension plans he first flagged in 2019.

The move follows recent Queensland government confirmation that discussions aimed at ending the Airtrain's airport monopoly were underway. ...

' rapid bus services ' ... 

Sent to all outlets:

We are not Paris either ...

7th December 2022

Good Morning,

Tremendous support, feedback on BERT !  😃

BERT is a hook I used to demonstrate how dumb it is calling a bus rapid transit system a ' Metro ' .
It is not a metro and never will be.

To understand why has been incorrectly named the ' Brisbane Metro ' look back to the BCC Elections in 2016.  Then Lord Mayor Quirk floated a Paris like rubber-tyred subway plan he called a Metro.  As presented it did qualify as a Metro, but as we showed at the time was not going to be ever implemented.  [ Lord Mayor Graham Quirk's 'Quack' Metro is a Dead Duck!  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11952.msg176602#msg176602 ]. Because it was flawed, it slowly transformed to improving our bus rapid transit by using bigger buses.  It is not a Metro.

The ' metro ' name stems from this  ' Paris Metro like ' 2016 political con, which did flummox the Labor camp at the time.  It was easy to explain it was bull-dust and we did at the time, the Labor outfit could not raise to the occasion, and Brisbane and most of the media were done over like amateurs.

I don't care what BCC say, the Brisbane Metro is not a metro, it is bus rapid transit and should be described as such.  I am very tired of the political nonsense from BCC ( I delineate them from the TfB transport staff, who must be acutely embarrassed with this misrepresentation ..).

Enjoy this video!

Mayor Graham Quirk's $1.5b rubber wheeled metro looks like Newman's 2007 one
31 Jan 2016




Have a great day!

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=265297

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1600228956157796353

Quote from: ozbob on December 07, 2022, 00:21:43 AM

Quote from: Jonno on December 06, 2022, 17:44:45 PMNot only is Metro the wrong name it is the Wrong Vehicle!

Certainly is in many respects to be called a ' metro '.

My purpose of posting the 3 videos above was to demonstrate just how haphazard public transport policy development is in Brisbane and SEQ.  There is a very strong case to bring BCC under the control of a proper Public Transport Authority.

The ' metro ' name stems for the ' Paris Metro like ' 2016 political con, which did flummox the Labor camp at the time.  It was easy to explain it was bullsh%t and we did at the time, the Labor outfit could not raise to the occasion, and Brisbane and the media were done over like amateurs.

I don't care what BCC say, the Brisbane Metro is not a metro, it is bus rapid transit and should be described as such.  I am very tired of the political crap from BCC ( I delineate them from the TfB transport staff, who must be acutely embarrassed with this political nonsense ..)

Couldn't agree more!

The Lord Mayor is driving the public transport agenda using politics not good planning!  He talks of further expansion of his BERTS but we have shown it can't physically happen! Where pray tell do BERTS to Capalaba and Airport fit in between 2.5min head way and remaining bus routes still using busway?

The wider bus network actively competes and avoids integration with rail!!

The Busway must become just 1 or 2 lines or it will cripple publi transport growth for decades!

Quote from: Jonno on December 06, 2022, 22:34:11 PMThe 60 BERTS will choke the Buswsy! They will only move max 7000 people an hour at 2.5 min spacing!

Non sequitur.

The issue with LRT/BRT is that the trams can only go forwards on the track so they need a basically-clear platform. But the BERTs play by bus rules and can go around much the same way that any other bus already does. Ever seen an artic pull out while there's still another bus in the lead stop on the platform? Same deal.

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mbereni_brisbane-metro-is-no-metro-rail-lobby-activity-7005703246925234176-afOd



My response:

QuoteRobert Dow

Thanks for your comments Matthew. It does matter what our bus rapid transit in Brisbane is called in my view. BRT in Brisbane is very good because of the busways, and it is simply wrong to describe it as a Metro, something it is not. It should be promoted for what it is, very good bus rapid transit. Improving Brisbane's BRT with the deployment of the electric bi-articulated buses on the busways is another improvement. There is a history of political hoodwinks which has lead to the name misrepresentation. This can be explored further on the RAIL Back On Track forum here if desired > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=265362
Best wishes,
Robert

QuoteThe issue with LRT/BRT is that the trams can only go forwards on the track so they need a basically-clear platform. But the BERTs play by bus rules and can go around much the same way that any other bus already does. Ever seen an artic pull out while there's still another bus in the lead stop on the platform? Same deal.

Estimating Brisbane Metro Capacity Simple Case

Buses will be limited by the platform occupation dwell. I believe only two can be at the platform face at any one time. Any other bus that turns up will have to wait until the platform face will be free to dock at it. (Happy to be corrected)

The service interval therefore cannot be more than the time it takes to decelerate, dock, open the doors, let passengers on/off, and then exit. I would estimate that to be around 30-45 seconds to do that. There are other practical considerations, so I would estimate the maximum frequency of this at 45-60 seconds.

This would give 60-80 buses per hour throughput, and based on 150 pax/bus = 9000 - 12,000 pphd which is just under what the busway is already capable of doing. As mentioned elsewhere, Brisbane metro is more about repackaging existing demand so that places like Cultural Centre can be decongested and time savings from that decongestion realised.

Complex Case - Modified to Incorporate Interposed Buses       
https://www.google.com/search?q=interposed

We can modify the theoretical capacity to incorporate the idea that an alternative exit route for standard buses via the Captain Cook Bridge also exists. Currently about half of the busway buses (almost all rockets) leave the SE busway system at Woolloongabba.

It might be possible to squeeze another three buses per minute in between the Brisbane Metro buses, provided that they are diverted at Woolloongabba and don't stop at busway platform spaces. That would be another 3 buses per minute x 60 minutes = 180 buses per hour squeezed to in-between the Brisbane Metro buses on the busway (theoretical). So that is potentially another 180 buses x 65-85 pax = 11,700 to 15,300 pphd added.

Conclusions

The theoretical total would then be ~ 20,700 to 27,300 pphd, the sum of Brisbane Metro + Interposed Rocket/express buses via Captain Cook Bridge. Of course, this would consume an enormous number of labour hours to operate as each bus would need an individual driver. In practice, buses do not load and pack evenly, so a practical figure might be 80% of the quoted value.

The SE busway can already support a true metro rail system on current patronage as it carries ~2x the patronage of Sydney Metro (Tallawong-Chatswood). Current patronage would support a genuine metro train every 5 minutes during peak and 10 minutes during off peak. A metro train would need a tunnel, possibly shadowing CRR from Woolloongabba into the CBD, and some of the busway between Mater Hill and RBWH would remain as busway.

The benefit of a genuine "wheel on steel" metro is that it would consume far less labour hours to operate, could be fully automated, and it would have very high transfer passenger absorption capacity, which means that BUZ routes such as BUZ 130, 150, 140, 111, etc could all be terminated at (Rail) Metro stations similar to Toronto, Canada or Perth, WA. This would expel air parcels carried by buses at interchanges meaning good, even vehicle loading into the city, and release a large amount of bus route-km for recycling elsewhere as bus service and bus frequency upgrades across Brisbane.

Quote from: aldonius on December 07, 2022, 07:46:51 AM

Quote from: Jonno on December 06, 2022, 22:34:11 PMThe 60 BERTS will choke the Buswsy! They will only move max 7000 people an hour at 2.5 min spacing!

Non sequitur.

The issue with LRT/BRT is that the trams can only go forwards on the track so they need a basically-clear platform. But the BERTs play by bus rules and can go around much the same way that any other bus already does. Ever seen an artic pull out while there's still another bus in the lead stop on the platform? Same deal.

This is exactly where the "Let's play when and where on the platform you bus arrives" comes from!! It's a low quality passenger experience.

Quote from: #Metro on December 07, 2022, 15:54:08 PM

QuoteThe issue with LRT/BRT is that the trams can only go forwards on the track so they need a basically-clear platform. But the BERTs play by bus rules and can go around much the same way that any other bus already does. Ever seen an artic pull out while there's still another bus in the lead stop on the platform? Same deal.

Estimating Brisbane Metro Capacity Simple Case

Buses will be limited by the platform occupation dwell. I believe only two can be at the platform face at any one time. Any other bus that turns up will have to wait until the platform face will be free to dock at it. (Happy to be corrected)

The service interval therefore cannot be more than the time it takes to decelerate, dock, open the doors, let passengers on/off, and then exit. I would estimate that to be around 30-45 seconds to do that. There are other practical considerations, so I would estimate the maximum frequency of this at 45-60 seconds.

This would give 60-80 buses per hour throughput, and based on 150 pax/bus = 9000 - 12,000 pphd which is just under what the busway is already capable of doing. As mentioned elsewhere, Brisbane metro is more about repackaging existing demand so that places like Cultural Centre can be decongested and time savings from that decongestion realised.

Complex Case - Modified to Incorporate Interposed Buses       
https://www.google.com/search?q=interposed

We can modify the theoretical capacity to incorporate the idea that an alternative exit route for standard buses via the Captain Cook Bridge also exists. Currently about half of the busway buses (almost all rockets) leave the SE busway system at Woolloongabba.

It might be possible to squeeze another three buses per minute in between the Brisbane Metro buses, provided that they are diverted at Woolloongabba and don't stop at busway platform spaces. That would be another 3 buses per minute x 60 minutes = 180 buses per hour squeezed to in-between the Brisbane Metro buses on the busway (theoretical). So that is potentially another 180 buses x 65-85 pax = 11,700 to 15,300 pphd added.

Conclusions

The theoretical total would then be ~ 20,700 to 27,300 pphd, the sum of Brisbane Metro + Interposed Rocket/express buses via Captain Cook Bridge. Of course, this would consume an enormous number of labour hours to operate as each bus would need an individual driver. In practice, buses do not load and pack evenly, so a practical figure might be 80% of the quoted value.

The SE busway can already support a true metro rail system on current patronage as it carries ~2x the patronage of Sydney Metro (Tallawong-Chatswood). Current patronage would support a genuine metro train every 5 minutes during peak and 10 minutes during off peak. A metro train would need a tunnel, possibly shadowing CRR from Woolloongabba into the CBD, and some of the busway between Mater Hill and RBWH would remain as busway.

The benefit of a genuine "wheel on steel" metro is that it would consume far less labour hours to operate, could be fully automated, and it would have very high transfer passenger absorption capacity, which means that BUZ routes such as BUZ 130, 150, 140, 111, etc could all be terminated at (Rail) Metro stations similar to Toronto, Canada or Perth, WA. This would expel air parcels carried by buses at interchanges meaning good, even vehicle loading into the city, and release a large amount of bus route-km for recycling elsewhere as bus service and bus frequency upgrades across Brisbane.

OMG This would fail any Rail Safety Assessment!! Why is it allowed just because it is buses!!! Multiple buses every minute...instead of the correct high volume service every three minutes that elderly, disabled, young, visitors, new user can happily navigate!

Sydney Metro is a system still in its infancy and not yet connected to the CBD and running well under capacity, so we are comparing a barely full metros patronage with an established BRT.

Isnt Bris metro using platform allocation, eg Metro vehicles pull up in a separate location to regular buses (Hence the platform extensions being done) so it will work differently to the current lead stop arrangement.

Just to expand on my earlier claim:

12,000 pphd current peak busway patronage / 1000 pax train = 12 trains per hour.

60 min/12 trains per hour = 5 min train frequency during peak.

Steel wheel Metro works on current SEB patronage. 

*updated

Quote12,000 pphd current peak busway capacity

Quotecurrent SEB patronage.

Sorry to avoid confusion, are we talking busway patronage or busway capacity, because they would be two different figures.

Quote from: #Metro on December 07, 2022, 17:00:26 PMJust to expand on my earlier claim:

12,000 pphd current peak busway capacity / 1000 pax train = 12 trains per hour.

60 min/12 trains per hour = 5 min train frequency during peak.

Steel wheel Metro works on current SEB patronage. 

And that patronage has us just over worst practice public transport usage. Busway is good but needs great to fantastic to get us to leading practice! As does our rail and the whole bus network

Chermside, Brisbane Airport and Carindale on the cards

Quote from: #Metro on December 07, 2022, 21:20:07 PMChermside, Brisbane Airport and Carindale on the cards

That didn't answer the question, are we talking about busway patronage or Busway capacity.

Quote from: Gazza on December 07, 2022, 21:32:08 PM

Quote from: #Metro on December 07, 2022, 21:20:07 PMChermside, Brisbane Airport and Carindale on the cards

That didn't answer the question, are we talking about busway patronage or Busway capacity.

He'll respond with a partial answer soon 

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1600467624982638592

Sent to all outlets:

Expansion of the Brisbane BRT network supported

7th December 2022

Good Evening,

Brisbane Lord Mayor Schrinner is seeking support to expand bus rapid transit using the electric bi-articulated buses to Chermside, Brisbane Airport and Carindale.

Viz. Calls to extend Brisbane Metro network to airport | 7NEWS  7th December 2022



The name 'Brisbane Metro  does not correctly describe what it is.  'Brisbane Metro' is bus rapid transit, it is not a 'Metro', and it is very silly, confusing and misleading to continue to use the wrong name/description. 

RAIL Back On Track has always supported the expansion of bus rapid transit, and continues to do so. 

We have shown in previous correspondence how the misrepresentation of bus rapid transit as a 'Metro' has arisen. 
It was crass politics and just confirms how weak transport leadership really was in Brisbane.  The travesty continues.

Most transport professionals are not comfortable with the name ' Brisbane Metro' because it is claiming it is a mode it is not.
( https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mbereni_brisbane-metro-is-no-metro-rail-lobby-activity-7005703246925234176-afOd )

Brisbane has very good bus rapid transit, this is what needs to be promoted.  Not a mistruth!
It is time Lord Mayor to call the ' Brisbane Metro'  Brisbane BRT. 
Let's get it right and push on from here!

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Calls to extend Brisbane Metro network to airport | 7NEWS 7th December 2022



Thanks FF for doing this interview.   

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1600480172066877440

Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit