Brisbane: Bus Electric Rapid Transit (' Brisbane Metro ')

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1600503193112547330

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

December 07, 2022, 22:59:46 PM

Expansion of the Brisbane BRT network supported

Good Evening,

Brisbane Lord Mayor Schrinner is seeking support to expand bus rapid transit using the electric bi-articulated buses to Chermside, Brisbane Airport and Carindale.

Viz. Calls to extend Brisbane Metro network to airport | 7NEWS  7th December 2022



The name 'Brisbane Metro  does not correctly describe what it is.  'Brisbane Metro' is bus rapid transit, it is not a 'Metro', and it is very silly, confusing and misleading to continue to use the wrong name/description. 

RAIL Back On Track has always supported the expansion of bus rapid transit, and continues to do so. 

We have shown in previous correspondence how the misrepresentation of bus rapid transit as a 'Metro' has arisen. 
It was crass politics and just confirms how weak transport leadership really was in Brisbane.  The travesty continues.

Most transport professionals are not comfortable with the name ' Brisbane Metro' because it is claiming it is a mode it is not.
( https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mbereni_brisbane-metro-is-no-metro-rail-lobby-activity-7005703246925234176-afOd )

Brisbane has very good bus rapid transit, this is what needs to be promoted.  Not a mistruth!
It is time Lord Mayor to call the ' Brisbane Metro'  Brisbane BRT. 
Let's get it right and push on from here!

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

Re: Expansion of the Brisbane BRT network supported

8th December 2022

G'day,

Many thanks Brisbanetimes for referring to the *'Brisbane Metro rapid bus network'.  That's what it is.
* https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/lord-mayor-losing-sleep-over-olympic-delays-but-leader-to-be-named-soon-20221207-p5c4fl.html

Be good if all media did the same. Why propagate something that is not correct?



See you on board BERTie !

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

December 07, 2022, 22:59:46 PM

Expansion of the Brisbane BRT network supported

Good Evening,

Brisbane Lord Mayor Schrinner is seeking support to expand bus rapid transit using the electric bi-articulated buses to Chermside, Brisbane Airport and Carindale.

Viz. Calls to extend Brisbane Metro network to airport | 7NEWS  7th December 2022



The name 'Brisbane Metro  does not correctly describe what it is.  'Brisbane Metro' is bus rapid transit, it is not a 'Metro', and it is very silly, confusing and misleading to continue to use the wrong name/description. 

RAIL Back On Track has always supported the expansion of bus rapid transit, and continues to do so. 

We have shown in previous correspondence how the misrepresentation of bus rapid transit as a 'Metro' has arisen. 
It was crass politics and just confirms how weak transport leadership really was in Brisbane.  The travesty continues.

Most transport professionals are not comfortable with the name ' Brisbane Metro' because it is claiming it is a mode it is not.
( https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mbereni_brisbane-metro-is-no-metro-rail-lobby-activity-7005703246925234176-afOd )

Brisbane has very good bus rapid transit, this is what needs to be promoted.  Not a mistruth!
It is time Lord Mayor to call the ' Brisbane Metro'  Brisbane BRT. 
Let's get it right and push on from here!

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

Extend Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Metro to Chermside and Carindale to Fix Traffic Woes

9th December 2022

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) supports Brisbane City Council's in principle suggestion of extending the Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Metro (BBRT Metro) to Chermside and Carindale.

Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner has mentioned that BBRT Metro network should be expanded to Chermside and Carindale. We agree. Extending BBRT Metro beyond RBWH along Gympie Road to Chermside will increase overall transport capacity of Gympie Road.

The BBRT Metro can be rolled out quickly and more cheaply than the alternatives.

The BBRT Metro bi-articulated buses are capable of moving high passenger volumes quickly, even off the busways. There are many locations world wide where bi-articulated buses do street running.  At a 2-minute service frequency, or 30 vehicles per hour, about 4500 passengers/direction/hour can be achieved.

The additional net increase capacity offered by the BBRT Metro is similar to adding a new general traffic lane on Gympie Road or Old Cleveland Road in each direction.

We do have some concerns around delay and reliability. We think wherever possible, the BBRT Metro buses when running off the busways should be in prioritised lanes, either exclusive bus lanes or T3 or T2 lanes at minimum. We also think that works are required at Chermside to accommodate the vehicles. Aspley should also be investigated as a potential BBRT Metro terminus as well.

Another key question is where suitable land is available for a Northside BBRT Metro depot. Many Northside locations are flood-prone.

Brisbane City Council should also investigate the viability of extending the BBRT Metro west to Indooroopilly Shopping Centre or Mt Ommaney. Doing so would greatly simplify the Western Brisbane bus network, and would also justify the return of exclusive bus lanes to Coronation Drive.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org


References:

BBRT Metro Theoretical Capacity Calculation
30 buses/hr x 150 passengers/bus = 4500 passengers/hour/direction

Net Capacity Increase
4500 passengers/h/direction (total BBRT Metro capacity at a bus every 2 min)
minus 2160 passengers/h/direction (loss to motorists from installation of an exclusive lane)
equals a net gain of +2340 passengers/h/direction (a net gain in people moving capacity for the road overall)

'Absolute nightmare': Lord Mayor wants action on Gympie Road congestion
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/absolute-nightmare-lord-mayor-wants-action-on-gympie-road-congestion-20220906-p5bfsf.html

Calls to extend Brisbane Metro network to airport | 7NEWS

[ozbob]

Facebook ...

Extend Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Metro to Chermside and Carindale to Fix Traffic Woes 9th December 2022 RAIL Back On...

Posted by RAIL - Back On Track on Thursday, 8 December 2022

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Metro!

9th December 2022

Greetings,

As you may or may not have noted we have come to a compromise position with respect to the naming/description of the 'Brisbane Metro'.

Acknowledging that the 'Brisbane Metro' was initially based on former Lord Mayor Quirk's 'Paris like rubber tyre' metro, which then transformed to a bus rapid transit project, we think the name should be the 'Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Metro'.   Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) is a properly defined public transport system, with much more capacity, reliability and quality than conventional bus systems ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit ).  BRT on our busways is a one of our real significant public transport assets in Brisbane, and it needs to be promoted, not hidden away.

It is important to correctly describe the mode underpinning the 'Brisbane Metro'  because it is not what is accepted as being a true metro.

In so doing, residents and visitors will understand what it is.   
We are being directly honest and promoting our very good BRT!



I hope you all support this!

Thank you.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

Extend Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Metro to Chermside and Carindale to Fix Traffic Woes

9th December 2022

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) supports Brisbane City Council's in principle suggestion of extending the Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Metro (BBRT Metro) to Chermside and Carindale.

Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner has mentioned that BBRT Metro network should be expanded to Chermside and Carindale. We agree. Extending BBRT Metro beyond RBWH along Gympie Road to Chermside will increase overall transport capacity of Gympie Road.

The BBRT Metro can be rolled out quickly and more cheaply than the alternatives.

The BBRT Metro bi-articulated buses are capable of moving high passenger volumes quickly, even off the busways. There are many locations world wide where bi-articulated buses do street running.  At a 2-minute service frequency, or 30 vehicles per hour, about 4500 passengers/direction/hour can be achieved.

The additional net increase capacity offered by the BBRT Metro is similar to adding a new general traffic lane on Gympie Road or Old Cleveland Road in each direction.

We do have some concerns around delay and reliability. We think wherever possible, the BBRT Metro buses when running off the busways should be in prioritised lanes, either exclusive bus lanes or T3 or T2 lanes at minimum. We also think that works are required at Chermside to accommodate the vehicles. Aspley should also be investigated as a potential BBRT Metro terminus as well.

Another key question is where suitable land is available for a Northside BBRT Metro depot. Many Northside locations are flood-prone.

Brisbane City Council should also investigate the viability of extending the BBRT Metro west to Indooroopilly Shopping Centre or Mt Ommaney. Doing so would greatly simplify the Western Brisbane bus network, and would also justify the return of exclusive bus lanes to Coronation Drive.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org


References:

BBRT Metro Theoretical Capacity Calculation
30 buses/hr x 150 passengers/bus = 4500 passengers/hour/direction

Net Capacity Increase
4500 passengers/h/direction (total BBRT Metro capacity at a bus every 2 min)
minus 2160 passengers/h/direction (loss to motorists from installation of an exclusive lane)
equals a net gain of +2340 passengers/h/direction (a net gain in people moving capacity for the road overall)

'Absolute nightmare': Lord Mayor wants action on Gympie Road congestion
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/absolute-nightmare-lord-mayor-wants-action-on-gympie-road-congestion-20220906-p5bfsf.html

Calls to extend Brisbane Metro network to airport | 7NEWS

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1601013806473543680

[ozbob]

Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Metro! 9th December 2022 Greetings, As you may or may not have noted we have come to a...

Posted by Robert Dow on Friday, 9 December 2022

[ozbob]

' Brisbane Metro Bus 9001 testing at Mater Hill Busway Station '

[Ari 🚋]

Drove past a Metro bus on Kingsford Smith Drive yesterday around 10 in the morning, didn't realise they were running around on public roads as well!

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1601573632052191232

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1601575504674697216

[#Metro]

I have been thinking about this more, and Brisbane MetroBus    would be a good compromise. 

It captures the service level offering, while not lying about the actual vehicle as well.

It is also uses two words not five to describe it.

Precedent would be the Sydney MetroBus (now withdrawn).

[ozbob]

Call it what you want, the fact remains mode is bus rapid transit and it is a bi-articulated bus.

Anything else is non-standard and I don't support.

[Jonno]

Call it what you want, the fact remains mode is bus rapid transit and it is a bi-articulated bus.

Anything else is non-standard and I don't support.

1000% The name is a farce The planning is blinkered and BCC Centric! And it has been allowed to occur under a Road First Transport Minister! Failure personified!!

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1601941652817727489

[Jonno]

Ok I am really confused now! It's not a Metro it's a Bi-artic bus! It needs to be called BRT at best BERT! Now we are ok with Brisbane BRT Metro!

Might as well call a Meat Pie a "Savory pastry featuring a meat-based filling encased in a buttery, flaky golden-brown crust"

These new buses need to be running in a properly design prioritised (separated bus lane) BRT network (not the current busway mess of routes) with clearly legible and understandable routes! T1, L1, B1. 

BCC is killing public transport in SEQ and the Transport Minister is too busy widening freeways to even care!

[ozbob]

I put out an olive branch. Nothing to be confused about, it is all in this thread.

It was a process of working through to the best outcome and compromise as detailed below.

They (BCC) are not going to change it (they said as much) , but might consider emphasising it is BRT.  So lets see how things develop from here.

I used BERT as a media hook, and it worked well.

It is not a drama, I think we have managed to make sure the media et al understand it is BRT and  that the ' metro vehicle ' is a bus! 

https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=265468

Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Metro!

9th December 2022

Greetings,

As you may or may not have noted we have come to a compromise position with respect to the naming/description of the 'Brisbane Metro'.

Acknowledging that the 'Brisbane Metro' was initially based on former Lord Mayor Quirk's 'Paris like rubber tyre' metro, which then transformed to a bus rapid transit project, we think the name should be the 'Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Metro'.  Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) is a properly defined public transport system, with much more capacity, reliability and quality than conventional bus systems ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit ).  BRT on our busways is a one of our real significant public transport assets in Brisbane, and it needs to be promoted, not hidden away.

It is important to correctly describe the mode underpinning the 'Brisbane Metro'  because it is not what is accepted as being a true metro.

In so doing, residents and visitors will understand what it is. 
We are being directly honest and promoting our very good BRT! ...

[minbrisbane]

^^ absolutely, this is all just political garbage.  Certain media outlets are just eating it up.

PT planning needs to be removed from BCC at the very least to ensure a single plan for the entire region can be created and implemented independent of political interference. 

[ozbob]

^^ absolutely, this is all just political garbage.  Certain media outlets are just eating it up.

PT planning needs to be removed from BCC at the very least to ensure a single plan for the entire region can be created and implemented independent of political interference. 

Yes, and that will only happen if the State Govt grows a set and moves on the Public Transport Authority.

See > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=265507

[Jonno]

^^ absolutely, this is all just political garbage.  Certain media outlets are just eating it up.

PT planning needs to be removed from BCC at the very least to ensure a single plan for the entire region can be created and implemented independent of political interference. 

Our message needs to highlight that the Brisbane Metro, BERT, Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Metro, metal box with wheels and doors,  is a clear symptom of the failure public transport is in SEQ! Mode share is pathetic and unchanged in 30 years despite years of " trust use we have this sorted"

No bus network review, confusing dangerous busway stations, poor frequency all over the shop (bus and rail), no true integration between rail and bus) and absolutely no sign of anything changing!

My taxes and rates just going up in smoke!! 

[ozbob]

^ did you read the link?

https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=265507

Exactly what we said.

... BCC continues to run roughshod over proper public transport planning.  Even the name ' Brisbane Metro ' is incorrect, BCC are not honest. ...

After many years, it is clear to me the biggest issue with public transport in SEQ is BCC.  It sort of worked once when Brisbane was surrounded by market gardens, but these days Brisbane LGA cannot really be considered as separate from a PT point of view any more.  The State is being negligent in not acting.

All SEQ regions are suffering to various degrees because of BCC.  I keep pushing the PTQ because it is only way forward now to be honest.  With the Olympics on the horizon this might finally push them over the line.

[Jonno]

^ did you read the link?

https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=265507

Exactly what we said.

... BCC continues to run roughshod over proper public transport planning.  Even the name ' Brisbane Metro ' is incorrect, BCC are not honest. ...

After many years, it is clear to me the biggest issue with public transport in SEQ is BCC.  It sort of worked once when Brisbane was surrounded by market gardens, but these days Brisbane LGA cannot really be considered as separate from a PT point of view any more.  The State is being negligent in not acting.

All SEQ regions are suffering to various degrees because of BCC.  I keep pushing the PTQ because it is only way forward now to be honest.  With the Olympics on the horizon this might finally push them over the line.

We are on the same page, just think we should not refer to Metro at all unless it is truly one.  BCC's current plans are new electric bi-articulated buses (but there again all new buses should be electric) on an existing BRT system (be it a messy one at that).  Expanding the BRT in dedicate bus-lanes either curb or preferably centre running is the priority which we have called out.  The whole bus network needs to be redesigned to be BRT centric - not an expansion of the Metro BS.  All plans and media by BCC that are not led by Translink should be "called out for what they are" BCC blinkered and political. BCC needs to let/push Translink to take the lead or shut-up.

[ozbob]

I think in time the ' Metro ' will drop off and it will be Brisbane BRT ...

Presently we need to keep the Metro as part of the description so that there is some clear idea what we are referring too for the public etc. even though we know it is not a Metro.  But the message is starting to get out there.

[Jonno]

Not the Brisbane Metro? Bit like Not the Nine O'clock News.

[ozbob]

Is the Brisbane METRO a major error? John Coyle video.

[#Metro]

If we can talk about Metro Rail then we can talk about Metro Bus.

John Coyle raises the possibility of guided busway like Adelaide O-Bahn or perhaps electronic tagging in the road as the guideway. But the busway is already very fast. Doing either of these things will not really make a significant improvement to travel times or busway capacity.

I'm cool with the Brisbane MetroBus. As soon as passengers start using it, it will overload a few years soon after that; Blue team's streak at City Hall might even be over then.

At that point we can start drawing up genuine rail options. I think BCC realises rail will have to come eventually, as the initial Quirk Metro proposal was for an actual, genuine, Metro Rail with trains (albeit with rubber tyres like Paris/Montreal).

Busway was chosen as the Rapid Transit mode in Brisbane as:
- Busways didn't need a new tunnel into the CBD and could use the Victoria and Captain Cook Bridges (Save $billions)
- No new vehicles were required, as the existing BCC bus fleet could be used
- It could be opened in pieces and staged. This affects the BCR as benefits further away are penalised versus 'right now' improvements.
- There is a high reliance on rockets and express patterns in Brisbane (e.g. Sunnybank, Browns Plains). Busways handle this easily, with LRT and metro rail it is much harder to run a diversity of stopping patterns. Mixed service patterns reduce rail line capacity greatly.

Metro Rail will be expensive as a new tunnel is required to shadow CRR in from the SEB and underground stations. I'd say another $3-5 billion is needed for that. 

[Jonno]

If we can talk about Metro Rail then we can talk about Metro Bus.

John Coyle raises the possibility of guided busway like Adelaide O-Bahn or perhaps electronic tagging in the road as the guideway. But the busway is already very fast. Doing either of these things will not really make a significant improvement to travel times or busway capacity.

I'm cool with the Brisbane MetroBus. As soon as passengers start using it, it will overload a few years soon after that; Blue team's streak at City Hall might even be over then.

At that point we can start drawing up genuine rail options. I think BCC realises rail will have to come eventually, as the initial Quirk Metro proposal was for an actual, genuine, Metro Rail with trains (albeit with rubber tyres like Paris/Montreal).

Busway was chosen as the Rapid Transit mode in Brisbane as:
- Busways didn't need a new tunnel into the CBD and could use the Victoria and Captain Cook Bridges (Save $billions)
- No new vehicles were required, as the existing BCC bus fleet could be used
- It could be opened in pieces and staged. This affects the BCR as benefits further away are penalised versus 'right now' improvements.
- There is a high reliance on rockets and express patterns in Brisbane (e.g. Sunnybank, Browns Plains). Busways handle this easily, with LRT and metro rail it is much harder to run a diversity of stopping patterns. Mixed service patterns reduce rail line capacity greatly.

Metro Rail will be expensive as a new tunnel is required to shadow CRR in from the SEB and underground stations. I'd say another $3-5 billion is needed for that. 

I don't talk about Metro Rail. I would talk about a Metro/Subway, Heavy Rail, Light Rail and BRT.  All well defined modes of transport. Only in QLD to we much up marketing BS to see the latest political idea. The Lord Mayor's vanity bi-articulated electric bus will

• not significantly increase capacity;
• can't scale up;
• doesn't address the mess that constitutes a busway station; and
• can fit in additonal lines he is talking about

all for $1.2 billion of my rates.  Not sure i am patient enough to just hope it fixes itself in time. 

     

[Gazza]

If the SEB was reaching capacity, you could just build the Beaudesert line as far as Browns plains at least, and this would cannibalise a fair bit of the 130/140/150 patronage and by extension would eliminate the need for as many rockets from that part of Brisbane.
New stations would be at Acacia Ridge, Algester and Hillcrest at least, and would offer around 25 mins time saving compared to the current buses.


The beauty of this approach is that there is no need to shadow CRR, because CRR already has spare capacity to support this extension.

[Jonno]

It is all needed to get us off worst practice mode share

[#Metro]

It's just a cost thing Jonno.

I agree with you that Metro Rail would be better. 

The question though is whether Metro Rail would be ~ 4x better than the BRT option. 

To clarify why, here's my thinking:

- Imagine if the benefit/costs ratio for both Brisbane MetroBus and MetroRail were identical and both equal to 1 (present value sum of time savings, bus driver labour savings etc).

- Brisbane Metro Buses are $1.2 billion, a new MetroRail would easily be ~$5 billion. A QR extension to Beaudesert cost? Maybe ~$2-3 billion at a guess.

- MetroBuses would only have to generate $1.2 billion of benefits, so ~4x fewer benefits than Metro Rail to break even and be worth doing. In comparison, MetroRail needs to generate at least say ~ $5 billion in benefits (e.g time savings + accident reduction etc) to be worth it.

So that is like 4x more benefit required, more time savings etc than the competing BRT.

Example: A case where MetroRail is 2x Better than BRT Alternative

Imagine if MetroRail was 2x better than BRT. For $5 billion it would generate $2.4 billion of benefits, which would give a BCR of 0.48. That doesn't work for project acceptance.

What Does This Mean?

- Even if Rail Metro was better, there is still a range or band where you would reject the rail project.

Metro Rail in this particular case has a much higher bar to clear than BRT does, as Metro rail is more expensive. It's not enough for Metro Rail to be 1x, 2x, or 3x better than BRT. It would probably have to be at least 4x better than BRT to clear the hurdle and just to break even IMHO (*assuming MetroBRT BCR ~ 1).

Now, while my own personal position is get a Rail Metro in, as I definitely would prefer Sydney Metro > SE Busway. I can also deeply appreciate and understand the reasoning as to why BCC et al. won't change their plan to a train on rails yet.

Feel free to modify the numbers and see if you can get a situation where metro rail outdoes the metro bus. I'd be happy to be wrong

[Jonno]

My honest opinion that the vanity bus won't generate any benefit! Is that a BCR of -1.0? At total waste of money! Worse it will kneecap the future of the busway for decades to come. So I am at a BCR of -2.0!!

We have mode share near worst practice so only a solution that significantly improves that is worth considering not the play numbers used to justify the latest favorite project!

Replace the 100's of buses that make up the current busway and have them run on dedicate bus lanes the BCR is now through the roof!

[Gazza]

If a BRT project can still achieve a BCR of >1 when its only fairly small capacity increase and some efficiency gains, then surely a project which achieves a step increase in capacity and speed, like a new rail line would be higher?

But as I've said earlier, you can cook figures to generate a BCR of whatever you want these days its seems.

[Jonno]

If a BRT project can still achieve a BCR of >1 when its only fairly small capacity increase and some efficiency gains, then surely a project which achieves a step increase in capacity and speed, like a new rail line would be higher?

But as I've said earlier, you can cook figures to generate a BCR of whatever you want these days its seems.

Even Freeways miraculously have a BCR...despite all the evidence to the contrary.

[#Metro]

My honest opinion that the vanity bus won't generate any benefit! Is that a BCR of -1.0? At total waste of money!

Freeways miraculously have a BCR...despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Well, if you were setting up your own small business like a Cafe etc, the bank will want to see some estimates for revenue, costs and customers over time, and a plan. If you just turn up and say "modelling is systematically biased against Cafes" (or whatever), and don't present at least some structured justification, the bank will simply reject your application. As they should!!

Likewise, if you were getting a home loan, you would want an idea or estimate of the rates and amount of repayments etc. They might even do up a model. Yes the mortgage interest rate could change, but that would only be an argument for testing the effects higher rates of interest. It's not an argument to avoid getting estimates in the first place. You might also want to test the idea against renting and saving the money elsewhere.

You get the idea.

It is the same idea here, just scaled up and applied to the public sector large projects.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1602489523870408704

[ozbob]

Well there you go ... 

[Jonno]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1602489523870408704

I call BS!!!

[Jonno]

My honest opinion that the vanity bus won't generate any benefit! Is that a BCR of -1.0? At total waste of money!

Freeways miraculously have a BCR...despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Well, if you were setting up your own small business like a Cafe etc, the bank will want to see some estimates for revenue, costs and customers over time, and a plan. If you just turn up and say "modelling is systematically biased against Cafes" (or whatever), and don't present at least some structured justification, the bank will simply reject your application. As they should!!

Likewise, if you were getting a home loan, you would want an idea or estimate of the rates and amount of repayments etc. They might even do up a model. Yes the mortgage interest rate could change, but that would only be an argument for testing the effects higher rates of interest. It's not an argument to avoid getting estimates in the first place. You might also want to test the idea against renting and saving the money elsewhere.

You get the idea.

It is the same idea here, just scaled up and applied to the public sector large projects.

If I went to the bank asking for 100k loan on the cafe and my business case showed it doesn't increase patronage nor capacity (may in fact decrease it) and my media releases to expand services can't physically be catered for ....I doubt I would get the loan.  To get the loan the numbers get fudged.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1602489523870408704

I call BS!!!

Public admission.

It is BRT after all ...   

Which has been the point of my crusade of late, and I wanted people to understand that it is BRT.

The Metro name has lead to derision in some circles, which is a shame of sorts.  BRT is a good mode and that is being largely lost with the 'Metro' name deflecting. 

People can call it what they want, me?  Brisbane BRT ! 



Example:

https://twitter.com/ReturnoftheOP1/status/1602673444776189952

[#Metro]

If I went to the bank asking for 100k loan on the cafe and my business case showed it doesn't increase patronage nor capacity (may in fact decrease it) and my media releases to expand services can't physically be catered for ....I doubt I would get the loan.  To get the loan the numbers get fudged.

It's not an argument to avoid getting estimates in the first place. If there are "dodgy numbers" then you would point that out. The fact that they are made explicit in a BCR would allow you to do that. Auditor-Generals review business cases all the time, the most recently done was CRR.

Your position is essentially there shouldn't be an application in the first place.

And I think that's where we disagree.