RAIL - Back On Track Forum

^ a real ' metro ' huh?   

Quote from: ozbob on March 24, 2016, 14:58:21 PM
^ a real ' metro ' huh?   

As I was reading it I was thinking, "Now THAT'S how you do a metro!"

Quirk's is a model train set in comparison!

I might draw up a table later comparing the two systems ...   

Meanwhile ..

==================

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 20 minutes ago Brisbane, Queensland

The @Team_Quirk con

2012 'Cleve LR' ... ✖️

2014 'BaT' ... ✖️

2016 'Metro' errrr Nope! #qldpol

Quote from: ozbob on March 25, 2016, 07:09:20 AM
I might draw up a table later comparing the two systems ...   

Great idea!  Also include a column for the current busway for comparison of the capacity figures.  That way people can see - if you want to build a metro, it has to be done like Sydney, not the Quirk idea.  (Obviously we want to see it take a different route too - so we're not destroying one piece of infrastructure to replace it with another - but given what the proposal is, the bus comparison is relevant.)

Here we go ... a fantasy ' metro ' versus a real metro ..

It is planned for the Sydney Metro to go to 8 cars eventually. That would be 46,000 pphpd (2 min freq)  ....  now that is a good investment. They plan to go to 2 minutes eventually also.

Rubber tyre metros are also less energy efficient cf. with normal rail, and also higher maintenance.  This adds to operating costs.

The Quirk thought bubble is utter nonsense I am afraid.

Is there any recent or planned heavy rail projects (metro or otherwise) in the world that use trains of such a small length like 50m.  The main advantage of a train is its length.

In australia the only trains that are that small are in adelaide (and thats changing quickly), and some regional diesels in NSW and Victoria.  (Hunter, southern highlands).   

Quote from: tazzer9 on March 25, 2016, 17:43:09 PM
Is there any recent or planned heavy rail projects (metro or otherwise) in the world that use trains of such a small length like 50m.  The main advantage of a train is its length.

In australia the only trains that are that small are in adelaide (and thats changing quickly), and some regional diesels in NSW and Victoria.  (Hunter, southern highlands).

There are a few, legacy systems in the main. Most metros have train capacities of 1000-1200 pax minimum, and easily achieve 30,000 pphpd.  The bullsh%t spread by Quirk et al during the election campaign should have been destroyed by Labor, but they were to busy waving placards for Fare Free Friday ... fools.  The Quirk Metro is constrained in length because of the busway stations (60 m, Mater Hill 45 m) so if they want to go longer costs start escalating rapidly because of the works.  Also means Victoria Bridge could not be used. More cost.

There is no way this Quirky project will survive a proper business case, cost benefit analysis etc.  Will completely wreck the inner busway network for a negative gain ... 

Brisbane might well get a real metro one day.  The Quirk metro is not it obviously.  It would be a system comparable to Sydney.

Sent to all outlets:

25th March 2016

Is the Quirk ' Metro ' a Quack Metro?

Greetings,

RAIL Back on Track has compared the proposed Quirk Metro against that of the Sydney Metro (see table below). In our opinion, Quirk Metro is grossly under-costed and has cut multiple corners to reduce the 'headline cost' of the metro (i.e. lack of automation, lack of platform screen doors, does not connect to RBWH a major hospital and trip generator).

Scandalously, we calculate that it does not represent an increase in capacity over the current busway operations.

The Queensland Government should ask Lord Mayor Graham Quirk to sign a cost-explosion indemnification agreement. Should the project over-run its $1.5 billion funding allocation, any cost explosion must become Brisbane City Council's problem to pay. Brisbane City Council should also be asked to use BCC land on Gilchrist Ave and Victoria Park in Herston as a depot rather than valuable State Government TOD land at Woolloongabba.

We have identified a reference system, the T-Banen in Oslo, Norway, to compare vehicle capacities. A 3-carriage T-Bane metro train on the Oslo system at 54 meters in length carries approximately 493 passengers. Which suggests that the 300 pax capacity for a system with 50 m trains proposed in Brisbane with vehicles designed for Brisbane's bus infrastructure is indeed correct. The minimum capacity a metro requires to meet the 30 000 passengers/hour touted for Brisbane is 750 passengers/train.

In our opinion, the Quirk Metro is a vote bait promise that is about as real as The Easter Bunny.

The Queensland Government should proceed with bus reform proposals and draw up legislation to strip Brisbane City Council of all public transport functions.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org


Image: http://backontrack.org/docs/bcc/metrovmetro.png

Reference

OS MX 3000, T-Banen Oslo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_MX3000
"Capacity - 493 passengers (3 cars)"
"Car length - 54.14 m"
"Car width - 3.16 m"

Sent to all outlets:

26th March 2016

The Quirk ' Metro ' is a Quack Metro

Good Morning,

Why would a responsible Government - be it Council or State allow billions of dollars to be wasted on a pipe-dream scheme which is the Quirk Metro plan?

We have shown conclusively that it is aberrant nonsense.  It does not even match the current capacity of the busways.  The ' retro-spectroscope ' is a very useful instrument, but it is a real shame that the Labor Campaign was more interested in waving placards for ' Fare Free Friday ' another nonsense, rather than pointing out the many problems with the Quirk Quack Metro. They might have done better.

Lord Mayor Quirk has constantly rejected reform of the Brisbane bus network claiming it is not broken, and in any case people do not like to transfer.  Now he wants a half-baked quack Metro. Huh?

His Metro proposal will wreck the the Brisbane bus network and force massive transfers and massive route changes.  The inconsistency is breath taking.

Fortunately, the Quirk Metro is not going to withstand a rigorous business case / cost benefit analysis. It is a seriously flawed political proposition without serious transport grounding.

Time we moved on with what we can achieve.  Turn Victoria Bridge into a green bridge, fix up the Cultural Bus station, start reforming the bus network so that the number of near empty buses in the CBD can be reduced and buses deployed to the suburbs where they can actually service our community. Roll out frequent feeder buses to key bus and rail stations.

Brisbane might well need a real metro down the track.  The Quirk Quack Metro is not it, obviously.

There is a history of failed projects with Lord Mayor Quirk's support.  In 2012 we had the ' Cleveland Solution ' another bizarre transport fantasy.  Then came along the BaT - which said by Senior LNP sources was never really going to happen.  The Quirk Metro is the next in line of fantasy projects.

It is alarming that transport policy is so screwed in Brisbane and SEQ is it not?

Lord Mayor Quirk is correct about one thing.  The fare system for SEQ is in urgent need of reform.  Where is the fare review?

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on March 25, 2016, 18:26:44 PM
Sent to all outlets:

25th March 2016

Is the Quirk ' Metro ' a Quack Metro?

Greetings,

RAIL Back on Track has compared the proposed Quirk Metro against that of the Sydney Metro (see table below). In our opinion, Quirk Metro is grossly under-costed and has cut multiple corners to reduce the 'headline cost' of the metro (i.e. lack of automation, lack of platform screen doors, does not connect to RBWH a major hospital and trip generator).

Scandalously, we calculate that it does not represent an increase in capacity over the current busway operations.

The Queensland Government should ask Lord Mayor Graham Quirk to sign a cost-explosion indemnification agreement. Should the project over-run its $1.5 billion funding allocation, any cost explosion must become Brisbane City Council's problem to pay. Brisbane City Council should also be asked to use BCC land on Gilchrist Ave and Victoria Park in Herston as a depot rather than valuable State Government TOD land at Woolloongabba.

We have identified a reference system, the T-Banen in Oslo, Norway, to compare vehicle capacities. A 3-carriage T-Bane metro train on the Oslo system at 54 meters in length carries approximately 493 passengers. Which suggests that the 300 pax capacity for a system with 50 m trains proposed in Brisbane with vehicles designed for Brisbane's bus infrastructure is indeed correct. The minimum capacity a metro requires to meet the 30 000 passengers/hour touted for Brisbane is 750 passengers/train.

In our opinion, the Quirk Metro is a vote bait promise that is about as real as The Easter Bunny.

The Queensland Government should proceed with bus reform proposals and draw up legislation to strip Brisbane City Council of all public transport functions.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org


Image: http://backontrack.org/docs/bcc/metrovmetro.png

Reference

OS MX 3000, T-Banen Oslo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_MX3000
"Capacity - 493 passengers (3 cars)"
"Car length - 54.14 m"
"Car width - 3.16 m"

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 2h

Are @LNPQLD Public Transport Policies Destructive? @QLDLabor @QldGreens

> http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/03/are-lnps-public-transport-policies.html ... #qldpol

@StirlHinchliffe @scottemerson

April Fools?
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/04/april-fools.html

Quote from: BrizCommuter on April 01, 2016, 06:09:00 AM
April Fools?
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/04/april-fools.html

===============

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow now Brisbane, Queensland

BrizCommuter: April Fools?

> http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/04/april-fools.html ... #qldpol

@Team_Quirk @StirlHinchliffe @TMRQld @QLDLabor @LNPQLD

http://www.grahamquirk.com.au/lord-mayor-announces-reshuffle-of-civic-cabinet/

Lord Mayor announces reshuffle of Civic Cabinet

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk has announced a wide-ranging reshuffle of his Civic Cabinet with the development of the Brisbane Metro subway a new priority for the new four-year term.

Cr Quirk said Cr Adrian Schrinner – who was yesterday re-elected as Deputy Mayor unopposed – would have special responsibility for the development of the Brisbane Metro as part of an expanded Public and Active Transport portfolio.

"During the election campaign I made a commitment to building the Brisbane Metro subway system to cope with the demands on our public transport system and freeing up more buses for the suburbs and I look forward to making this a reality over coming years," he said.

"The Brisbane Metro is the biggest project that will get underway during this term and I'm handing responsibility for its development to Deputy Mayor Adrian Schrinner.

"I want to recommit Council to addressing the important matters for our city – tackling traffic congestion, even better public transport and enhancing our lifestyle and leisure opportunities.

"My team will continue Council's good work to ease traffic congestion by completing 90 new road projects across Brisbane over the coming four years, including the much needed Kingsford Smith Drive upgrade.

"I am committed to making our New World City the very best it can be and I look forward to working with all Brisbane residents to deliver on that vision."

The Civic Cabinet team remains the same as during the previous term however every member has different portfolio responsibilities.

Civic Cabinet and Councillors will be officially sworn in next Tuesday at City Hall.

The Civic Cabinet membership is:

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk
Deputy Mayor Adrian Schrinner, Chairman, Public and Active Transport Committee with special responsibility for the development of the Brisbane Metro and International Relations
Cr Krista Adams, Chairman, Finance and Economic Development Committee
Cr Matthew Bourke, Chairman, Lifestyle and Community Services Committee
Cr Amanda Cooper, Chairman, Infrastructure Committee
Cr Peter Matic, Chairman, Field Services Committee
Cr David McLachlan, Chairman, Environment, Parks and Sustainability Committee
Cr Julian Simmonds, Chairman, City Planning Committee

The Chairman of Council is Cr Angela Owen.

==================

Can't wait for the rubber tyred trains to be running in Brisbane  .... 

Not going to happen - I would expect that to hold true even IF the LNP take control of Parliament during the current term.

We should still be scared of it, any minute spent on this dumb project is taking away time and effort and other real projects.   This actively blocks any serious rail upgrades both in the brisbane area and outside it.

Duplication and upgrading the interstate line and building of 2nd freight terminal.
CCR
Trouts Rd
Cleveland duplication
any possible South side suburban railway lines
NCL duplication and upgrades
western line upgrades
Gold coast line extensions

These are just some of the SEQ rail projects that the 1.5 billion could go towards.  I could write a novel about how many other critical rail projects in other states could also use this money.

The truly silly thing is that there is nothing in this proposal that CRR would not do if built to its 2012 spec.

Gabba interchange - tick.

Northside interchange - tick (albeit at the upgraded Ekka station on O'Connell Tce).

Actual capacity increase instead of expensive conversion of an existing corridor resulting in no increase - tick.

Just tip some money into CRR and have done with it.

Quote from: SurfRail on April 05, 2016, 15:36:58 PM
The truly silly thing is that there is nothing in this proposal that CRR would not do if built to its 2012 spec.

Gabba interchange - tick.

Northside interchange - tick (albeit at the upgraded Ekka station on O'Connell Tce).

Actual capacity increase instead of expensive conversion of an existing corridor resulting in no increase - tick.

Just tip some money into CRR and have done with it.

Yes, not to mention avoiding the downgrade of travel times for all the buses that can't connect to the north/south interchanges.

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/04/quirky-metro-slow-coach.html
BrizCommuter's assessment of journey times - comparing Busway vs Quirky Metro.

(BrizCommuter promises this will be the last blog post on the Quirky Metro for a while).

Quote from: BrizCommuter on April 05, 2016, 20:34:16 PM
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/04/quirky-metro-slow-coach.html
BrizCommuter's assessment of journey times - comparing Busway vs Quirky Metro.

(BrizCommuter promises this will be the last blog post on the Quirky Metro for a while).

Nice work!  Thanks ... distributed to all!   

Sent to all outlets:

6th April 2016

Quirk Metro - another undeliverable grand plan?

Greetings,

There are very serious questions that need answering concerning BCC's proposal for a ' Metro '.

The capacity of the metro as proposed falls very short of the present capacity of the busway system.

As detailed here > http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/04/quirky-metro-slow-coach.html, there is a negative situation with respect to journey times.

It is difficult to understand how such a flawed proposal will satisfy a rigorous business case and cost benefit analysis.

Are we to wait in limbo for another decade before any systematic bus network reform is undertaken? Other jurisdictions have got on with bus network reform and have delivered great benefit - Houston, Auckland, Hobart for example.

BCC has resisted bus network reform claiming that people do not want to transfer. Now they want nearly everyone to transfer.  The hypocrisy is breath taking!

It does seem that the ' Quirk Metro ' can be added to the list of recent  ' grand plan ' failures such as the ' Cleveland Solution ' and the BaT tunnel. Both supported by the Lord Mayor.

Meanwhile we have worsening congestion and a bus network that cannot even achieve minimum performance standards, despite having an extensive busway component.

Good luck Brisbane, you are going to need it!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Why is it that Brisbane throws up these impractical ideas for PT, when so obvious solutions (such as bus reform) and fairer fares remain in the too hard basket?  Let us not forget the ill-conceived BAT that the Libs now admit they knew never would be built.  The State Infrastructure Plan is a farce without a financial package to implement it.

Crazy plans where the expectation is that the feds will fund them.  The feds don't want a bar of crocks of sh-t, so resist the SHOW US THE MONEY shouting, instead calling for business case analysis that would prove the brain bubble projects are poor investments.  We then move to some misguided patriotic Maroons mindset about Qld not getting its 'fair share' of funding from Canberra when, all along, the problem is of our own making.

Quote from: Stillwater on April 06, 2016, 06:20:33 AM
Why is it that Brisbane throws up these impractical ideas for PT, when so obvious solutions (such as bus reform) and fairer fares remain in the too hard basket?  Let us not forget the ill-conceived BAT that the Libs now admit they knew never would be built.  The State Infrastructure Plan is a farce without a financial package to implement it.

Crazy plans where the expectation is that the feds will fund them.  The feds don't want a bar of crocks of sh-t, so resist the SHOW US THE MONEY shouting, instead calling for business case analysis that would prove the brain bubble projects are poor investments.  We then move to some misguided patriotic Maroons mindset about Qld not getting its 'fair share' of funding from Canberra when, all along, the problem is of our own making.

Because its really hard to have a ribbon cutting ceremony for bus reform or lower fares.

OK I am have had it with metro

I just sent this to Quirk for a please explain

QuoteDear Lord Mayor
Can you please explain you comment on 7 News regarding Cross River Rail and I quote "Council will not be putting money into rail infrastructure, we never have, we are not about to start doing that". As I understand it your Metro Proposal is a rubber tyred train guided by metal guide rails technically making it rail infrastructure. Is this not a contradiction!
https://youtu.be/Yl_14gH5oiA
Sincerely
Donald Campbell

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 12th April 2016 page 17

Cross River project a winner for Brisbane

For interest, a real rubber tyre metro train. These are new and this is the first one in actual service.  Automatic although I think there is an observer in the front during this phase.  Older Montreal rubber tyre train sets do not  have carriage connections this one does, which gives overall an 8% boost in capacity.  About 50 seats per carriage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPM-10

Pax capacity is around 160 per carriage + 8% (http://metro.wikia.com/wiki/Montreal_Metro).  9 car trains ~ 1500 pax.

IMPRESSIVE RIDE ON NEW MONTREAL AZUR METRO





Can you see one of these running over Victoria Bridge?  No?  Me neither .. lol

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 14th April 2016 page 13

Cross River Rail can't come soon enough

Sent to all outlets:

15th April 2016

A real metro ...

Good Morning,

Still no response detailing how the Quirk metro will actually contribute positively to public transport for Brisbane.  As we have shown conclusively, as proposed it is nonsense.

For interest.  Here is a real rubber tyre metro train .. Montreal's New Azure Metro

>

These are nine ( 9 ) car rubber tyre trains that carry around 1500 passengers.  At 2 minute frequency that achieves 45,000 passengers per hour per direction (pphpd).  Can you see these running over Victoria Bridge?  No?  We can't either.

The Quirk Quack metro is 9,000 pphpd at a 2 minute frequency.  Our present busways can deliver 15,000 pphpd.    Why waste billions of dollars and cause massive disruption?  Bus reform will deliver massive benefits for near neutral cost.

Time we got on with bus network reform!  It would be politically negligent to not do that.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on March 26, 2016, 03:47:57 AM
Sent to all outlets:

26th March 2016

The Quirk ' Metro ' is a Quack Metro

Good Morning,

Why would a responsible Government - be it Council or State allow billions of dollars to be wasted on a pipe-dream scheme which is the Quirk Metro plan?

We have shown conclusively that it is aberrant nonsense.  It does not even match the current capacity of the busways.  The ' retro-spectroscope ' is a very useful instrument, but it is a real shame that the Labor Campaign was more interested in waving placards for ' Fare Free Friday ' another nonsense, rather than pointing out the many problems with the Quirk Quack Metro. They might have done better.

Lord Mayor Quirk has constantly rejected reform of the Brisbane bus network claiming it is not broken, and in any case people do not like to transfer.  Now he wants a half-baked quack Metro. Huh?

His Metro proposal will wreck the the Brisbane bus network and force massive transfers and massive route changes.  The inconsistency is breath taking.

Fortunately, the Quirk Metro is not going to withstand a rigorous business case / cost benefit analysis. It is a seriously flawed political proposition without serious transport grounding.

Time we moved on with what we can achieve.  Turn Victoria Bridge into a green bridge, fix up the Cultural Bus station, start reforming the bus network so that the number of near empty buses in the CBD can be reduced and buses deployed to the suburbs where they can actually service our community. Roll out frequent feeder buses to key bus and rail stations.

Brisbane might well need a real metro down the track.  The Quirk Quack Metro is not it, obviously.

There is a history of failed projects with Lord Mayor Quirk's support.  In 2012 we had the ' Cleveland Solution ' another bizarre transport fantasy.  Then came along the BaT - which said by Senior LNP sources was never really going to happen.  The Quirk Metro is the next in line of fantasy projects.

It is alarming that transport policy is so screwed in Brisbane and SEQ is it not?

Lord Mayor Quirk is correct about one thing.  The fare system for SEQ is in urgent need of reform.  Where is the fare review?

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on March 25, 2016, 18:26:44 PM
Sent to all outlets:

25th March 2016

Is the Quirk ' Metro ' a Quack Metro?

Greetings,

RAIL Back on Track has compared the proposed Quirk Metro against that of the Sydney Metro (see table below). In our opinion, Quirk Metro is grossly under-costed and has cut multiple corners to reduce the 'headline cost' of the metro (i.e. lack of automation, lack of platform screen doors, does not connect to RBWH a major hospital and trip generator).

Scandalously, we calculate that it does not represent an increase in capacity over the current busway operations.

The Queensland Government should ask Lord Mayor Graham Quirk to sign a cost-explosion indemnification agreement. Should the project over-run its $1.5 billion funding allocation, any cost explosion must become Brisbane City Council's problem to pay. Brisbane City Council should also be asked to use BCC land on Gilchrist Ave and Victoria Park in Herston as a depot rather than valuable State Government TOD land at Woolloongabba.

We have identified a reference system, the T-Banen in Oslo, Norway, to compare vehicle capacities. A 3-carriage T-Bane metro train on the Oslo system at 54 meters in length carries approximately 493 passengers. Which suggests that the 300 pax capacity for a system with 50 m trains proposed in Brisbane with vehicles designed for Brisbane's bus infrastructure is indeed correct. The minimum capacity a metro requires to meet the 30 000 passengers/hour touted for Brisbane is 750 passengers/train.

In our opinion, the Quirk Metro is a vote bait promise that is about as real as The Easter Bunny.

The Queensland Government should proceed with bus reform proposals and draw up legislation to strip Brisbane City Council of all public transport functions.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org


Image: http://backontrack.org/docs/bcc/metrovmetro.png

Reference

OS MX 3000, T-Banen Oslo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_MX3000
"Capacity - 493 passengers (3 cars)"
"Car length - 54.14 m"
"Car width - 3.16 m"

^ resent 21 April 2016

^ 7 News have followed up.  Thanks for the interest!   

I like how the grab bars and handles are positioned. Non above doorway entries unlike the Glink trams. The Montreal metro interior design and fit out is World Class.

7 News will be running a news item on the ' Metro ' in tonights news bulletin.

Quote7 News will be running a news item on the ' Metro ' in tonights news bulletin.

(Quickly grabbing popcorn)

Quote from: ozbob on May 05, 2016, 02:35:13 AM
7 News will be running a news item on the ' Metro ' in tonights news bulletin.

This evening's news will include a comedy segment.   

QuoteThis evening's news will include a comedy segment.

Quack, Quack!! 

============================


7 News Brisbane




Not sure if ' driverless ' is correct.  We had advice from BCC that as proposed the trains had drivers.

(home vid on TV)

Quote from: ozbob on May 05, 2016, 18:41:40 PM
Not sure if ' driverless ' is correct.  We had advice from BCC that as proposed the trains had drivers.

Yeah I was wondering about that.  Very different to what was proposed prior to the election.

It is obvious what needs to occur hey?

Bus network reform. 

What a sad case Brisbane and its transport has become ... from a PT enthusiast point of view, I would be tickled pink to see rubber tyre metro trains running through Brisbane, some how I don't think I will though ..

Problems in a nutshell.

1.  Is less capacity than the present busway. 

2.  Is under-costed, grossly.

3.  Has no network advantages as proposed, in fact wrecks the inner city bus network.

4.  Is very doubtful if Victoria Bridge can be used.

5.  Is not driverless as proposed (despite the comment in the news video).  If changed to automatic then cost of stations etc. ROW increases significantly.

6.  State controls the busway infrastructure.

7.  Proposed ' metro ' depot is state and actually earmarked for CRR.


Will never get past a proper business case as proposed. 

Yo, righto ...

They are just making it up as they go along.

Fire BCC.