LNP: Brisbane Metro Plan

[techblitz]

The Transport Minister is going to lose control of his portfolio all over again!!

yep......on bus reform i woud say hes being kept "in check" by his boss.....you know the one......who essentially helped hijack the bus review by drumming up all that suppport down at her home base inala(100buz)......her pet bus route....

Theres a harsh reality facing brisbane in the coming years....with the advent of a new "services"  boom as well as the current building boom.....brisbane road traffic is set to get exponentially worse than the mess we currently see.......upside is it brings a small glimmer of hope for  bus reform to return to the table.....

[ozbob]

The overall reform strategy should be this.

When it suits BCC they say TransLink is responsible for the network etc.  Ok then.

TransLink has a new boss, it is time they earned their keep.

TransLink needs to start making changes to the Brisbane bus network to reduce the waste, duplication and inefficiency.  For a start, redeploy wasted service, eg. empty buses on the busways late at night into bus black holes during the day so people can actually use the services!

It matters not a great deal if BCC do not want to cooperate.  TransLink must start acting for the benefit of the community.

This can be an incremental process over the next two years.

[ozbob]

There is so much dribble in this thread I can't see the surface.

BUS REFORM folks.

There's a reason why the Gold Coast has shiny new toys out earning their keep while Brisbane is doddering along.  Keep it achievable and sensible.

Bus reform is about as palatable to the electorate right now as poo burgers. Look at what happened in 2013 - the heat the government got over the proposal was insane.

Yes, bus reform is our main game, but if an idea is being floated, we're better off saying "Improve it by doing XYZ" rather than "This thing sucks!" Quirk isn't going to scrap a major election promise, we're better off saying how it could be improved (while also pointing out CRR is a better solution).

" ... Quirk isn't going to scrap a major election promise .. "

It will be scrapped on the basis of the Business Case and CBA.  It simply does not stack up, even our preliminary analysis shows that.

If it is to ever come to fruition it will need a lot of changes to what is presently proposed.

[techblitz]

The overall reform strategy should be this.

When it suits BCC they say TransLink is responsible for the network etc.  Ok then.

TransLink has a new boss, it is time they earned their keep.

TransLink needs to start making changes to the Brisbane bus network to reduce the waste, duplication and inefficiency.  For a start, redeploy wasted service, eg. empty buses on the busways late at night into bus black holes during the day so people can actually use the services!

It matters not a great deal if BCC do not want to cooperate.  TransLink must start acting for the benefit of the community.

This can be an incremental process over the next two years.

100% agree with this.....and if there is some sort of war/adknowledgement issue between BCC/BT and translink/dtmr...we need it resolved asap......only then can we move forward...

[BrizCommuter]

It is worth remembering that a metro is State Government policy also. Open the Connecting SEQ 2031 document and you will see a metro mentioned in it. Annastacia Palaszczuk was Transport Minister than and her face and signature are on the inside cover of it.

So clearly, the Queensland Government does want to see a metro in by 2031. They and Brisbane City Council are on the same page, they just don't want to admit it.

The state government proposed metro is on a completely different alignment and served completely different catchments.

I think you need to kindly take the cold shower of reality.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

22nd March 2016

Don't Be A Pushover on Quirk ' Metro! '

Greetings,

We are aware that Brisbane City Council will be corresponding with the Minister for Transport on the Quirk ' Metro ' proposal. It is unworkable in its current form in our opinion. We list our concerns:

1. Capacity. Our calculations show that Quirk Metro has no more capacity than the current busway.
2. Victoria Bridge. We do not believe it is capable of supporting the weight of a rubber tyre metro train system.
3. Alignment. A proper alignment study has not been done. There may be merit in combining it with CRR.
4. Depot. High-value land at Woolloongabba should not be used for low-value stabling purposes.
5. Automation. The metro must be automatic from day one, just like the Sydney metro.

Brisbane City Council should not be given carte blanche to do whatever it likes with State Government money or infrastructure - the busways! Without State Government approval and funds, the Quirk ' Metro ' cannot be constructed, and so the State Government must bargain hard with Brisbane City Council over this proposal.

We suggest:

6. Alternative locations for the depot to the Woolloongabba site should be investigated. Using the Woolloongabba site as a metro depot is an extremely poor use of high-value inner city land that would be better used for TOD and urban renewal.

7. Different route options must be looked at. In particular, the Queensland Government should investigate a double deck combined Cross River Rail/Metro tunnel from Woolloongabba to the CBD. The full business case should compare the merits of building Cross River Rail and the Metro as a combined project using a single tunnel versus the merits of building Cross River Rail and the Metro as separate projects using separate tunnels. A combined option means that Brisbane City Council is essentially contributing $500 - $750 million towards Cross River Rail.

8. Bus reform. No State Government funds should be committed unless Brisbane City Council either agrees to complete a prescribed program of bus reforms within two years, or hand over its entire bus operations to the Queensland Government in exchange for approval for the metro to use the busway. This bus reform condition should be non-negotiable. Bus reform must be completed during years one and two, as the business cases and project design is being done for the metro.

For the avoidance of all doubt, we are not suggesting that a combined CRR/Metro tunnel is the final solution or our preferred solution. We just want this option evaluated like the others. The Market Street Subway in San Francisco is a precedent where two different railway modes (BART regional rail and metro light rail) share a combined tunnel into a CBD.

Our suggestion to Transport Minister Stirling Hinchliffe is this - bargain hard with BCC! They need to earn this given their disgraceful history of flouting State Government bus on time standards, chronic inaction on waste, duplication, inefficiency within their bus network and wanton refusal to co-operate with TransLink bus planners on six separate occasions during the 2013 bus review.

Don't be a pushover!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

References:

1. Note:

Quirk Metro Capacity Calculation:
300 pax/train x 40 trains/hour = 12 000 passengers/hour, the same as the current busway already does.

Thus, even if trains ran every 90 seconds using state-of-the-art signalling, no increase in passenger capacity over the current busway operations would be achieved. Doubling train capacity from 300 pax / train to 600 pax / train still has capacity fall well short of the 30 000 passengers/hour touted in election vote bait material.

2. Market Street Subway, San Francisco

"The Market Street Subway is a double-decker subway tunnel that carries Muni Metro and BART train traffic in San Francisco, California. It runs under the length of Market Street between Embarcadero Station and Castro Street Station."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_Street_Subway

Sent to all outlets:

22nd March 2016

Quirk ' Metro ' is profound waste

Good Morning,

We now have a public transport crisis in Brisbane.  As was revealed on Television News services last evening in Brisbane, the Quirk ' Metro ' is at least 6 years away should it actually reach a construction stage. Buses continue to congest and run late in Brisbane, and it will only get worse.

Frankly, as proposed during the recent Council Elections the  ' Metro ' project does not stack up.  Firstly, why would anyone want to spend billions of dollars on a project that gives no overall gain in passenger capacity and completely disrupts the inner busway network in Brisbane?  There are serious questions about the proposed route alignment - Victoria Bridge is not structurally suitable for a mass transit system in our opinion.  The Team Quirk claims it is suitable for a ' metro ' but not light rail.  If it is not suitable for light rail there is little doubt that it will not be suitable for rubber tyre metro trains.  These vehicles require rails and power too, and are of similar size to a Queensland Rail Suburban Train only shorter.

There are real questions about the cost of the project that has been floated.  As was revealed during the campaign an internal memo from TMR also has questioned the costing.  There will be a need for an alternate to Victoria Bridge, the busway stations will require major works.  It is yet to be determined what other additional costs would be incurred.  Our estimate is a minimum of 3 billion dollars.

Team Quirk have presumptively assumed that the State Government will simply give over the busways for this project.  The suggested site for the depot for the Quirk ' Metro ' is actually planned to be utilised for Woolloongabba Railway station for Cross River Rail.  The land at Woolloongabba is not good for a depot. That would be a very poor use of valuable land and high opportunity cost and a loss of value capture opportunities eg. Transit Oriented Development at the station site. Depots should be located in areas where they are out of the way.

As was attempted in 2013, reforming the Brisbane bus network will effectively deliver much the same benefit as the Quirk ' Metro '.  Lord Mayor Quirk has said in the past that people do not want to transfer. Well, with the Quirk ' Metro ' nearly everyone will be transferring.

With bus network reform more buses will be deployed to the suburbs, the number of near empty buses clogging up the busways, Victoria Bridge and CBD will be significantly reduced.  It is outrageous to ponder the fact that our elected representatives are happy to spend billions of dollars on a pipe-dream, when simple network reform will deliver the same benefits for a near neutral cost.  Not only outrageous but also immoral and possibly fraudulent in our opinion. It takes some real political courage to do the right thing, something sadly lacking in Queensland and Brisbane it seems.

The Queensland Government must act and force Brisbane City Council to direct Brisbane Transport to be willing and cooperative partners in a bus network reform process for Brisbane.  If Council does not want to cooperate then the bus contracts must be removed from BCC. They are presently not able to meet the minimum performance standards and it will only get worse unless we have reform.

Brisbane cannot afford to sit in bus-jam any longer, waiting for pie-in-the-sky rolled gold dreams to come on by.

Time to act, and act decisively.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

References:

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11952.msg171225#msg171225

2. Note:

We have assessed Lord Mayor Graham Quirk's metro. As proposed, the capacity will fall far short of the 30 000 passengers/hour touted in election material. Our calculation shows that even if trains were run every 90 seconds, Quirk Metro would not add any new capacity to the South East Busway:

300 passengers / train x 40 trains/hour = 12 000 passengers/hour (This is the same as peak capacity on the SE busway)

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk is welcome to show us how he arrived at the figure of 30 000 passengers / hour. We do not believe it.
Even if train capacities were doubled, it would still fall short.

[Gazza]

While it is true that busway stations themselves do not generate high patronage (neither do train stations), it is also irrelevant information

So then why were you making the point that

- CRR takes a different route into the CBD than the busway
-Therefore CRR won't help the busway crush because it doesn't boost capacity at busway stations.

Actually it would...because most pax just want to get to the CBD.

If current bus passengers are dropped at Park Rd, Gabba, Altandi etc then the volumes using the inner segment of the busway are greatly reduced

[#Metro]

So then why were you making the point that

- CRR takes a different route into the CBD than the busway
-Therefore CRR won't help the busway crush because it doesn't boost capacity at busway stations.

Actually it would...because most pax just want to get to the CBD.

If current bus passengers are dropped at Park Rd, Gabba, Altandi etc then the volumes using the inner segment of the busway are greatly reduced

Well, if you want to advocate for that you can. People can already step off the 130 etc at Altandi and get the train or get the 169 to Park Road and then get a train to the CBD or get off at South Bank and transfer to a train into Central Station.

That is pretty much what people are advocating when they suggest feeding 12 000 pax (or even 50% of that) into CRR at Woolloongabba. It would be almost like 1960s where trains terminated at South Brisbane, everyone had to hop off and then get the tram across the Victoria Bridge. Except it would be East Brisbane now.

Later people thought that was not great, and they paid to build the Merivale Bridge into Roma Street.

Personally, I would much prefer to go to the busway station and get the metro which drops me off in the CBD. Or bus it into a metro station and get it to the CBD if I lived further away.

It also raises a question - if only some buses terminated at Wooloongabba CRR and others went straight through to the CBD, which bus would people catch? There is a real risk people let the terminating bus go past and get the direct one, overloading direct-to-CBD services and emptying the ones terminating at Wooloongabba. After all, not every service can stop at W'Gabba.

It would be very interesting indeed. Empty rockets into Wooloongabba, full and overloaded buses through CC.

I see the busway a line haul transit. Bus services should feed it from the suburbs, change to metro, go to CBD. Just like the TTC in Toronto.

[techblitz]

t also raises a question - if only some buses terminated at Wooloongabba CRR and others went straight through to the CBD, which bus would people catch?

117/110/115 thru acacia ridge is a decent guide......the stark majority prefer to walk further to the express route stops and go direct to the cbd rather than take a slower all-stops + transfer @ gabba 117...

[BrizCommuter]

t also raises a question - if only some buses terminated at Wooloongabba CRR and others went straight through to the CBD, which bus would people catch?

117/110/115 thru acacia ridge is a decent guide......the stark majority prefer to walk further to the express route stops and go direct to the cbd rather than take a slower all-stops + transfer @ gabba 117...

If the Quirky Metro was built (which hopefully it won't be) expect to see a sharp increase in demand for bus routes travelling across the Captain Cook Bridge for those one seat rides!

[Gazza]

If Quirks proposal were for something that ran all the way to 8MP, I imagine the attitude on here would be a bit different, because that would actually work (It being a lower priority project than CRR notwithstanding)

But that's not what we are getting, and it certainly can't be delivered for $1.5 bil to 8MP

What is proposed is a stubby line from Gabba to Herston, and THAT proposal, and mode of operation delivers nothing that CRR can't do.

And it's well and good to say there would be efficiency in terms of delivering a double deck tunnel.

But that's the same as saying its more efficient to duplicate to Nambor in one hit than to stage it to Landsborough.....of course! But the state has limited funds.

We're already struggling to get CRR off the ground yet
BCC wants the state government to help fund the metro Wheres the money?

I doubt BCCs part contribution ($800 mil?) would be anywhere enough to pay for a 2nd tunnel deck and link tunnels if funds were diverted that way.

[Gazza]

Also, a reality check....if you did CRR as a double deck tunnel then how does it hook into the busway, and where does the depot go?

The quirk proposal has gabba on the surface so hooking into a depot site would be feasible.

But with a double deck tunnel  the metro would be 60m below ground too, with the CRR tunnel, so you'd have some sort of long tunnel to another depot site, or a spiral to the surface, or what?

[ozbob]

The point is they need to look at all options.  I doubt if a twin tunnel will stack up (no pun intended) in the end.

It would be bad, very bad if the half baked Quirky Metro got off the ground as is.  I agree it is pointless.  I really reckon it  will not survive the business case as is.  Brisbane might well need a metro eventually, but would be a proper system not this absurd current proposal. Quirky Metro has less capacity than the busway as promoted (2 min trains), we have given them the benefit of 90 second trains and still just struggles to meet the busway capacity.  Simply will not happen as proposed. Be utter chaos!

[ozbob]

There has been no real critical analysis of the project, except for us and to a lesser extent the Greens.  I think the leaked memo indicates concerns on George St with it.

It is alarming the way the media just rolls with the spin and gloss, and really fails to look at things objectively and with balance, particularly the CM.

[Gazza]

Even with looking at options, it still needs to be affordable though.

No doubt the more a project can do/ the more features you add the better it is, but if it becomes unaffordable then its just foaming IMO.

Like, I reckon it would have been a lower overall cost to build g link from helensvale to broadbeach in one hit, but ultimately compromises had to be made...and the project still has done a lot of good.

If CRR got done, with proper approach works, I wouldn't shed a single tear if the metro didn't come for another 15 years after

[ozbob]

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 18th March 2016 page 13

Easy solution to nightmare

Yep, back to this ^   

[verbatim9]

t also raises a question - if only some buses terminated at Wooloongabba CRR and others went straight through to the CBD, which bus would people catch?

117/110/115 thru acacia ridge is a decent guide......the stark majority prefer to walk further to the express route stops and go direct to the cbd rather than take a slower all-stops + transfer @ gabba 117...

If the Quirky Metro was built (which hopefully it won't be) expect to see a sharp increase in demand for bus routes travelling across the Captain Cook Bridge for those one seat rides!

Thats a bold prediction and speculation. No one knows the preferred alignment as yet and what bus routes will be culled. I guess there will be some prepaid rockets still operating along Captain Cook. I think the metro will go ahead as stage 1 as planned with stage 2 and so forth to follow. Probably have stage 3 completed by 2028-2030 or earlier!?

[ozbob]

Made BT

Metro rail doesn't 'stack up'

A $1.5 billion metro rail project is "absolutely needed" for Brisbane according to Lord Mayor Graham Quirk but opponents fear it will have little impact. 7 News Queensland

>> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/video/video-news/video-qld-news/metro-rail-doesnt-stack-up-20160322-4ccna.html

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow now Brisbane, Queensland

Will this work on Victoria Bridge? > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11952.msg171254#msg171254 ... #qldpol

[dancingmongoose]

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow now Brisbane, Queensland

Will this work on Victoria Bridge? > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11952.msg171254#msg171254 ... #qldpol

[tazzer9]

I want to weigh in on how stupid quirks plan actually is.   

It is the exact same as if they decided to tear down the docklands light rail network and replace it with old style short tube train along the exact same alignment.    It might be slighter better for some.  But for most it would be ridiculous as its built for a different mode of transportation.

Its ripping up already expensive infrastructure so its useless for a few years (like the epping chatwoods rail line will be).  then replacing it with someone that isnt an improvement in nearly any way but using a whole load of $$$$ to do it.   

[ozbob]

^ sure is ...  thanks for your comments.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Next stop for Quirk: Brisbane Metro

Fresh from the Liberal National Party's record Brisbane City Council election victory, Lord Mayor Graham Quirk's attention has been turned firmly to getting his proposed Brisbane Metro off the ground.

The $1.54 billion Brisbane Metro was the LNP's biggest election promise and, if built, would link Woolloongabba and Herston.

Cr Quirk said the first step would be to prepare a business case for the Metro, which would take about a year, with construction likely to begin about a year after that.

"We've cleared the air, in terms of the election, and the people have spoken very loud and clear in terms of their intent," he said on Monday, less than 48 hours after his re-election as lord mayor.

"So we now have to sit down and have a sensible discussion."

In the heat of the council election campaign, the Labor state government was cool on the LNP's proposal, saying its own Cross River Rail was the priority public transport project for Brisbane.

During the council election campaign, the Quirk-led LNP administration was furious with the leaking of a Department of Transport and Main Roads document that warned the cost of the project could blow out to as much as $3 billion.

The Lord Mayor will now go cap-in-hand to the state government to get his project funded.

Cr Quirk said he wanted to limit the cost to the council as much as possible, which meant funding from different levels of government.

"We will structure this so that it doesn't create a significant burden for ratepayers," he said.

Transport Minister Stirling Hinchliffe said on Monday he had an "open mind" to work with Cr Quirk on delivering the Brisbane Metro.

Cr Quirk's decisive election victory has done nothing to dampen the opposition to the project from public transport advocate Robert Dow, from Rail Back on Track.

Mr Dow, who helped launch the Greens' council campaign, has ramped up his criticism of the Brisbane Metro, which he said was "unworkable in its current form".

"Brisbane City Council should not be given carte blanche to do whatever it likes with state government money or infrastructure (such as) the busways," he said.

"Without state government approval and funds, the Quirk Metro cannot be constructed and so the state government must bargain hard with Brisbane City Council over this proposal."

[ozbob]

^

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/brisbane-council-election-state-memo-warns-quirks-metro-could-cost-3-billion-20160304-gnb38g.html

" ... A state government memo has warned the cost of Lord Mayor Graham Quirk's proposed Brisbane Metro could blow out to $3 billion.

The memorandum to Department of Transport and Main Roads director-general Neil Scales, dated February 2 and obtained by Fairfax Media, raises serious concerns about how the project would affect the state government's Cross River Rail.

Bureaucrats from the department's transport strategy and planning branch also warned the cost of the project could blow out to as much as $3 billion.

"It is unclear in what terms (nominal, net present cost, real) these numbers are stated and whether or not they are risk adjusted," the memo notes.

"Noting the level of planning undertaken, these costs should be considered pre-project estimates, which should be anywhere between about 35 per cent and 50 per cent risk allowance.

"Subject to the risk allowance, the cost of the scheme could be in the order of $2 billion to $3 billion."

... The TMR memo notes Cr Quirk's Brisbane Metro would "require wholesale reconfiguration of the bus network across the Brisbane contract area, especially across the south-east".

"There was previously very strong community and BCC opposition to a proposed network review that was much less disruptive," it notes.

The memo also raises serious concerns about the Brisbane Metro's reliance on existing state-owned infrastructure.

"It is unclear what the expectation or implications would be with regards to operations and maintenance of the corridor," it notes.

"It is unclear how buses would access the Queen Street Bus Station, Adelaide Street and Elizabeth Street.

"If passengers are required to relocate to the King George Square bus station, many people would be disadvantaged in terms of access to their destination, especially those heading to the Queens Wharf precinct, the Riverside and Eagle Street precinct and the southern CBD.

"It will provide significant challenges during construction and major disruption to the busiest part of the busway network."

The memo also notes the Victoria Bridge, which would act as the Brisbane Metro's river crossing, was "known to have loading capacity limitations".

"It is unclear if and how these limitations have been addressed with regards to this proposal," it notes ...

[#Metro]

If Quirks proposal were for something that ran all the way to 8MP, I imagine the attitude on here would be a bit different, because that would actually work (It being a lower priority project than CRR notwithstanding)

Rome wasn't built in a day, was it?

But that's not what we are getting, and it certainly can't be delivered for $1.5 bil to 8MP

What is proposed is a stubby line from Gabba to Herston, and THAT proposal, and mode of operation delivers nothing that CRR can't do.

But it does. It would have the option of being extended along the busways, which are incompatible with QR trains.

And it's well and good to say there would be efficiency in terms of delivering a double deck tunnel.

But that's the same as saying its more efficient to duplicate to Nambor in one hit than to stage it to Landsborough.....of course! But the state has limited funds.

Limitation of funds is more to do with the politics of the state and politicians than it has to do with the technical aspects of the project. It is more to do with their unwillingness to fix their land tax loophole, not wanting to sell or lease state assets which have billions of dollars locked up in them, or borrow money against those assets. Interest rates are at record lows and there are plenty of workers who have left the mines to go on this and other projects. It is purely a self-made situation, and one that can change. 

We're already struggling to get CRR off the ground yet
BCC wants the state government to help fund the metro Wheres the money?

BCC can contribute money under a combined model. It would be very significant.

[ozbob]

This is a mind blowing scenario hey? 

I would love to see rubber tyre trains zipping around Brisbane, but somehow I don't think I will.  Not with this proposal anyway.



Meanwhile ... we can pretend!

[#Metro]

Should bring over some engineers from France or Quebec. Just wonder what their response to Quirk Metro would be?

Qu'est-ce que c'est? Ce n'est pas possible!

[verbatim9]

Should bring over some engineers from France or Quebec. Just wonder what their response to Quirk Metro would be?

Qu'est-ce que c'est? Ce n'est pas possible!

Everyone would hope that there is some kind of international expertise

[Gazza]

The amount the BCC could contribute would not be enough to pay for double decking the tunnel.

[#Metro]

I would actually like to see the proper evaluation done by TMR etc before I would make a statement like that.

[Derwan]

I would actually like to see the proper evaluation done by TMR etc before I would make a statement like that.

I wouldn't want to see time and money wasted on such an evaluation... but that's my opinion. 

[#Metro]

I wouldn't want to see time and money wasted on such an evaluation... but that's my opinion.

It's their job, that's what they are paid to do. Can't have billions spent on projects without due process. It is only fair.

[petey3801]

Cr Quirk said he wanted to limit the cost to the council as much as possible, which meant funding from different levels of government.

"We will structure this so that it doesn't create a significant burden for ratepayers," he said.

[tazzer9]

But its a line that will pretty much serve only the residents of the BCC area.   why shouldn't ratepayers fork up a large chunk of the cost.   
Its not like CCR or an upgraded NCL that will have indirect benefits to those outside of the BCC area.
Those living in rocky or cairns wouldnt be too happy that their tax payer dollars are going to something that will not benefit them at all.

[Gazza]

I would actually like to see the proper evaluation done by TMR etc before I would make a statement like that.

I wouldn't want to see time and money wasted on such an evaluation... but that's my opinion. 

But we already know from the costings for BaT what the additional costs of double decking are.

The only way they afforded it was by deleting 4km of tunnels, the bowen hills viaducts, an entire station at park riad, reducing the length of station boxes by 40% and scrapping track and station upgrades south of yeronga.

[#Metro]

False choice.

A proper appraisal would weigh both the costs and benefits of a combined option against the costs of constructing both projects separately at the same time or with one project (metro) delayed by 10 or 20 years.

Remember, a metro is both State Government and Brisbane City Council policy. It's there in black and white in the Connecting SEQ 2031 document with Annastacia Palaszczuk's face and signature on it. The only disagreements are about exact timing, what proportions each level should pay and route.

It would be wrong to compare CRR and metro versus a CRR and do nothing option as the base case.

As I have shown with calculations earlier, a metro would be running at 5 min frequencies in peak hour if it were operational today.

The BaT tunnel was nominally cheaper than CRR. I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but if it had the same funding envelope as the original CRR it may be possible to do.

Again, this discussion isn't useful until a proper evaluation as indicated above has been done. Just because some people don't like an idea does not exempt it from full and fair evaluation.

[#Metro]

8. Bus reform. No State Government funds should be committed unless Brisbane City Council either agrees to complete a prescribed program of bus reforms within two years, or hand over its entire bus operations to the Queensland Government in exchange for approval for the metro to use the busway. This bus reform condition should be non-negotiable. Bus reform must be completed during years one and two, as the business cases and project design is being done for the metro.

The beauty of imposing this condition is that if the metro proposal collapses or is shelved for any reason, the bus reform gains are already locked in.

[#Metro]

As for the depot location, that I will leave to the people at DTMR and BCC to work out. I am not paid to be an engineering firm or transport bureaucrat.

However, one could look at resuming Gilchrist Avenue and siting the metro depot on land there. Parts of Victoria Park Golf Course (BCC owned) could also be given over to a metro depot. The advantage of this is that it will never be developed (low opportunity cost), and it is already BCC land.

https://www.google.se/maps/@-27.4520138,153.0242988,628m/data=!3m1!1e3

Ultimately, when a metro reaches Eight Mile plains, a depot could be located at Rochedale.

BCC link http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/facilities-recreation/sports-leisure/golf-tennis/victoria-park-golf-complex

[Gazza]

I think you might struggle to use golf course land for a depot, because of the loss of green space.


Yes the state gov had a metro as a policy, but as a specific east west one that would serve new destinations, not just an inner busway conversion.
A specific line on map, not your interpretation that it means they support a metro everywhere or anywhere.

Its about as relevant as saying that because connecting SEQ 2031 has a gold coast light rail that means the state gov automatically supports a different light rail line down Bermuda st

And that metro was slated for the long term anyway...

[#Metro]

I think you might struggle to use golf course land for a depot, because of the loss of green space.

Are there any technical reasons why it cannot be sited there? Did you have an alternative depot location to suggest?

The current space appears to be cleared and already has a works depot of some description on it. I think it was also used as a construction staging area when the busway was under construction.

There will be no struggle. As one can see from Google maps, the Northern Busway already cuts through the Gold Course, which is the reason for the funny metal caging on the Northern Busway - Golf Ball Protection.

Most problems have solutions.