RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: #Metro on November 24, 2022, 09:01:18 AMJust get MTR Melbourne to sue all the Australian PT agencies for trademark & name / IP infringement. That'll fix it.   

Metro Melbourne really is ' Metropolitan ' Melbourne.  They are not representing themselves as a metro as such.

Facebook ...

Interesting feedback responses.  Consensus is calling it something it is not is just stupid, and politically devious.

Got that     

Just another reason why BCC needs to be roped in under a proper Public Transport Authority.

Weak State Government, weak Transport Minister.  Distinct lack of leadership on what really matters.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it! 

====

Stand to!

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1595802150990671873

Sent to all outlets:

BERT - Busway Electric Rapid Transport

25th November 2022

Good Morning,

Feedback on our Facebook post  Brisbane Bus Rapid Transport (BBRT) the correct name for ' Brisbane Metro '  at  https://railbotforum.org/yourls/30 has been  overwhelmingly  supportive calling out this Metro nonsense (see previous email below).  A real metro system is trains, high capacity and frequent, those trains might be on rubber tyres, e.g. some lines on the Paris Metro, or on heavy rail e.g. Sydney Metro, but a metro system is not buses.

One of the great public transport assets we have in Brisbane is the busways.  A leader in Australia and globally.  This is what you need to focus on and sell.  Why not call the deployment of the electric bi-articulated buses on the busway a catchy name such as the BERT (Busway Electric Rapid Transit).  That way we would catch a ' Bertie (bus) '  .

BERT describes what the system is, and it is not misrepresenting it as a metro system, which it clearly is not.  Bus rapid transit (BRT) is a great mode.  That is what it is.

We expect leadership from this point.  A proper Public Transport Authority would not allow the misrepresentation of the ' Brisbane Metro ' to be used.  A Transport Portfolio across the issues would act.  The name ' Brisbane Metro ' creates an expectation that cannot actually be delivered.

Ball is in your court!

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on November 24, 2022, 08:26:14 AMSent to all outlets:

Brisbane Bus Rapid Transport (BBRT) the correct name for ' Brisbane Metro '

24th November 2022

Greetings,

A big problem for the ' Brisbane Metro ' is the misappropriation of the term Metro.

This sets up a cycle of doubt in outcomes and the like in many minds, because it is not an appropriate name.

I have noticed a lot of lampooning of the name ' Brisbane Metro ' because of its misuse.

'Metro' in a public transport/transit sense means a mostly underground railway system in cities, usually a separate system of high capacity high frequency trains (1).

For example the Sydney Metro, the Paris Metro.  Calling it the 'Brisbane Metro' has been a mistake.

Calling the vehicles  ' Metro Vehicles ' or any other made up description is also hyperbole for what is just an electric bi-articulated bus.

It is a very nice innovative bus for sure, but lets not pretend it is anything other than what it is.

It is not too late to call the ' Brisbane Metro ' what it really is - bus rapid transit.

A suggested name is Brisbane Bus Rapid Transport (BBRT). This name says exactly what it is.

Visitors to Brisbane will no doubt be very surprised to find the ' Brisbane Metro ' is not a metro, but bus rapid transit.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Reference:

1. If It's Not A Metro System, Don't Call It One

Code Select Expand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bOhlaLjGJY

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1595885518193332224

QuoteMetro Melbourne really is ' Metropolitan ' Melbourne.  They are not representing themselves as a metro as such.

It is an interesting evolution of the term over time. The key criterion I would use is:
(a) a non-regional train service
(b) that is generally grade-separated
(c) that meets the frequency of at least 10 minutes all day at most stations, and
(d) in both directions

Lack of branching/interlining is not a reliable indicator of being a metro or not, for example, the Stockholm Metro is branched and shares common tracks between lines. As does the Washington DC Metro (USA).

Melbourne has regional rail (V/Line) so the Melbourne METRO trains service could qualify as a metro, provided that they increased train frequency generally to 10 min. Certain lines already meet this standard (Frankston, Dandenong).

Australia: Pitfalls of Metro Envy
https://humantransit.org/2010/04/australia-the-pitfalls-of-metroenvy.html

If you see in Paris, the stations are also signed "Metropolitan" or "Metro".


Image: https://www.introducingparis.com/metro

QuoteThe Metro signage is usually a letter M, or the words Métro or Métropolitain. The lines are numbered 1 to 14, and there are two additional lines called 3bis and 7bis.

What we can all certainly agree on, is that 'Metro' is not a bus. The test for whether its a bus or a train is to ask whether the vehicle can depart the guideway to run on ordinary roads. Trains cannot do this, whether they are rubber tyred (e.g. Montreal, Paris) or not. Buses can.

Using the name ' Brisbane Metro ' is really pathognomonic of the state of public transport mismanagement in Queensland.

BERT would work well.  It follows from a couple of suggestions received for BART (which is in use as Bay Area  Rapid Transit) and BURT.

If they continue to stick with the Metro name they are just going to get constantly lampooned.  It is not appropriate, and it is time the Minister for Transport, put down the selfie camera and got things happening.

https://www.bart.gov

 

QuoteIf they continue to stick with the Metro name they are just going to get constantly lampooned.  It is not appropriate, and it is time the Minister for Transport, put down the selfie camera and got things happening.

MBRT sounds good. Mark Bailey Rapid Transport.   

Isn't this Brisbane City Council's name for it?
I'm not sure the state government or anyone else can change that moniker.

I am sure the State can make them change the name.  The State would have approved it.

But BCC should change it without direction.  It is not a metro and is a huge joke to call it that.

As far I as I am concerned it is the BERT to me!    

What about 🅱etro?

^ I would stay away from any variation of Metro.  It just isn't.

Quote from: ozbob on November 25, 2022, 14:10:45 PMI am sure the State can make them change the name.  The State would have approved it.

But BCC should change it without direction.  It is not a metro and is a huge joke to call it that.

As far I as I am concerned it is the BERT to me!   

How about BUTT?
Brisbane Urban TransiT 

 

It is bi-articulated buses running on a busway.  Crikey, how hard is it?

Very interesting the feedback I have received, not only public but also private.

Not many transport types happy with ' Brisbane Metro '  I assure you.

Personally I think we should just stick to Trunk Route identifiers

T - Trains
U - Underground/Sunway
L - Light Rail
B - BRT
S - Suburban buses

If a B is converted to a L the Prefix changes and so on.  Why break something that works.

Yes, logical. But since when has logic had much to do with public transport in SEQ?

Calling it ' Brisbane Metro ' raises an expectation of a service that is a lot better than it will be in actuality - as you have pointed out on our Facebook pages Jonno. It is going to be a challenge for a lot of punters.  The bi-artics will be running with other buses and it will be confusing.  It is not a dedicated service. It should be promoted as what it is - bus rapid transit (BRT).  BRT is a good mode, and Brisbane with its busways does it well. But it can be improved.  But it is NOT a Metro, never will be.

I am sure if we had a Public Transport Authority they would do the sort of things that improve legibility, describe the network accurately and not play a political game designed to deceive the punters.  Which is what BCC is really doing.  The Council opposition is weak as well.

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1596209382936936448

Quote from: ozbob on November 25, 2022, 23:59:12 PMYes, logical. But since when has logic had much to do with public transport in SEQ?

Calling it ' Brisbane Metro ' raises an expectation of a service that is a lot better than it will be in actuality - as you have pointed out on our Facebook pages Jonno. It is going to be a challenge for a lot of punters.  The bi-artics will be running with other buses and it will be confusing.  It is not a dedicated service. It should be promoted as what it is - bus rapid transit (BRT).  BRT is a good mode, and Brisbane with its busways does it well. But it can be improved.  But it is NOT a Metro, never will be.

I am sure if we had a Public Transport Authority they would do the sort of things that improve legibility, describe the network accurately and not play a political game designed to deceive the punters.  Which is what BCC is really doing.  The Council opposition is weak as well.

I think the Minister has actually abandoned Public Transport except for the major already announced projects! He is letting the Lord Mayor run the bus network future ... to everyone's peril!!

Makes me think of Bert Newton when I hear it.

If it were Light Rail, you would call it LRT 1, LRT 2, LRT 3 as they do in Sydney, NSW.

Applying that scheme here, you would call it BRT 1, BRT 2, BRT 3, and so on.

BRT can be a name for both the infrastructure and the service.

It is not a conflict to name the service BRT also.

Because that's what it is, a BRT.

Of course it is BRT, but electric

BERT is now a sub set of BRT.   We have coined a new transit category.

Brisbane will be a leader in BERT !

Feedback on our Facebook was the inspiration, the rest is now history.

Sent to all outlets:

BERT - Busway Electric Rapid Transit

26th November 2022

Greetings,

Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) uses dedicated busways/lanes to deliver more capacity, reliability and quality than conventional street running buses.  Brisbane has good busways and it does make sense to further improve Brisbane's BRT.   The introduction of the electric bi-articulated buses, together with the busway infrastructure updates will to do that.   Calling the BRT improvements the ' Brisbane Metro ' is simply incorrect.  It is not a metro, it is a specialised form of BRT.  Following feedback from the public, we have coined the term Busway Electric Rapid Transit (BERT) to more correctly describe the BRT improvements. 

The electric bi-articulated buses will be mixed with other conventional buses on the busways.  It is not a dedicated network as such, and it is not trains.  A true Metro is characterised by trains, high frequency and high capacity, on a dedicated network mostly heavy rail, sometimes rubber tyre trains.  It is quite likely that Brisbane will one day have a real metro system, such as Sydney Metro.   This will be the true Brisbane Metro.

RAIL Back On Track is certain that if we had a proper Public Transport Authority in place in Queensland, this Metro misrepresentation would not occur, and the the project would be described and promoted for what it really is.  It is time to drop the nonsensical  ' Brisbane Metro ' spin,  and promote the very successful BRT that Brisbane offers.



Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=264890

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1596741738567069696

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1596744116208955393

Feedback on BERT has been very supportive.  A lot of folk are not happy with the ' Metro ' misrepresentation.

This has been a good move, informed by the public suggestions and feedback.

Key points:

BERT (Busway Electric Rapid Transit) is referring to the the deployment of the electric bi-articulated buses on the busways. 
It is a particular sub-set of BRT (Bus Rapid Transit). 

It is idiotic to suggest as BCC is doing, the bi-artics are a 'Metro' but the buses all around them are not.

BRT (and BERT) does have limitations as we all know.  Particularly with legibility, accessibility and quality.

Having said that Brisbane's busways are an important asset and do work. They will be better when the infrastructure station upgrades are in place. 
It is not the final answer though.  We need to consider the real Brisbane Metro (subway) in time.

Onwards ! 

LinkedIn ...

Sent to all outlets:

Re: BERT - Busway Electric Rapid Transport

1st December 2022

Greetings,

If It's Not A Metro System, Don't Call It One

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bOhlaLjGJY


The farce  continues ...  Brisbane is becoming a national laughing stock.

Will a real leader please stand up?

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on November 26, 2022, 23:17:07 PMSent to all outlets:

BERT - Busway Electric Rapid Transit

26th November 2022

Greetings,

Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) uses dedicated busways/lanes to deliver more capacity, reliability and quality than conventional street running buses.  Brisbane has good busways and it does make sense to further improve Brisbane's BRT.  The introduction of the electric bi-articulated buses, together with the busway infrastructure updates will to do that.  Calling the BRT improvements the ' Brisbane Metro ' is simply incorrect.  It is not a metro, it is a specialised form of BRT.  Following feedback from the public, we have coined the term Busway Electric Rapid Transit (BERT) to more correctly describe the BRT improvements. 

The electric bi-articulated buses will be mixed with other conventional buses on the busways.  It is not a dedicated network as such, and it is not trains.  A true Metro is characterised by trains, high frequency and high capacity, on a dedicated network mostly heavy rail, sometimes rubber tyre trains.  It is quite likely that Brisbane will one day have a real metro system, such as Sydney Metro.  This will be the true Brisbane Metro.

RAIL Back On Track is certain that if we had a proper Public Transport Authority in place in Queensland, this Metro misrepresentation would not occur, and the the project would be described and promoted for what it really is.  It is time to drop the nonsensical  ' Brisbane Metro ' spin,  and promote the very successful BRT that Brisbane offers.



Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=264890

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1598014851766693889

LinkedIN

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7003360749578334208?commentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Acomment%3A%28activity%3A7003360749578334208%2C7004082829944922112%29&dashCommentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afsd_comment%3A%287004082829944922112%2Curn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A7003360749578334208%29

Quote... Transport professionals should ensure that descriptions of public transport are correct. False expectations are otherwise raised, confidence is lost. BRT is very good in Brisbane (can be improved and will be) and should be promoted as such. Should not be left to advocates to challenge what is not correct. An electric bi-articulated bus is just that. Non standard names/descriptions just confuse.
🙂
Robert

Video: " If It's Not A Metro System, Don't Call It One "

Code Select Expand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bOhlaLjGJY

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1599251016624447489

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1599402197942669312

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1599576063054868483

Independent Australia --> Planned 'Brisbane Metro' is misleading the public

QuoteBrisbane City Council's planned 'Metro' system doesn't live up to its name and is nothing more than a specialised bus system, writes Robert Dow.

BUS RAPID TRANSIT (BRT) uses dedicated busways/lanes to deliver more capacity, reliability and quality than conventional street-running buses. Brisbane has good busways and it does make sense to further improve Brisbane's BRT. The introduction of the electric bi-articulated buses, together with the busway infrastructure updates, will do that. ...

Sent to all outlets:

5th December 2022

Article now published on Independent Australia

Planned 'Brisbane Metro' is misleading the public

https://independentaustralia.net/business/business-display/planned-brisbane-metro-is-misleading-the-public,17039

By Robert Dow | 5 December 2022, 11:00am

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

====

Quote from: ozbob on November 26, 2022, 23:17:07 PMSent to all outlets:

BERT - Busway Electric Rapid Transit

26th November 2022

Greetings,

Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) uses dedicated busways/lanes to deliver more capacity, reliability and quality than conventional street running buses.  Brisbane has good busways and it does make sense to further improve Brisbane's BRT.   The introduction of the electric bi-articulated buses, together with the busway infrastructure updates will to do that.   Calling the BRT improvements the ' Brisbane Metro ' is simply incorrect.  It is not a metro, it is a specialised form of BRT.  Following feedback from the public, we have coined the term Busway Electric Rapid Transit (BERT) to more correctly describe the BRT improvements. 

The electric bi-articulated buses will be mixed with other conventional buses on the busways.  It is not a dedicated network as such, and it is not trains.  A true Metro is characterised by trains, high frequency and high capacity, on a dedicated network mostly heavy rail, sometimes rubber tyre trains.  It is quite likely that Brisbane will one day have a real metro system, such as Sydney Metro.   This will be the true Brisbane Metro.

RAIL Back On Track is certain that if we had a proper Public Transport Authority in place in Queensland, this Metro misrepresentation would not occur, and the the project would be described and promoted for what it really is.  It is time to drop the nonsensical  ' Brisbane Metro ' spin,  and promote the very successful BRT that Brisbane offers.



Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=264890

Facebook ...

Its really Bus Rapid Transit. I wonder if IA had something to do with the initial Bne Metro name or was it solely thought up by BCC?

QuoteIts really Bus Rapid Transit. I wonder if IA had something to do with the initial Bne Metro name or was it solely thought up by BCC?

Thought up by BCC, blue team.
Background here https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11952.msg173638#msg173638

- LM Quirk promises a 'mini' metro (rail) similar to Vancouver SkyTrain (Election Promise)

- Quick math shows such a metro would reduce capacity of the busway for $1 billion; Due to the high cost the route is shortened. For example, BCC proposed the rail metro would terminate one stop before RBWH.

- On this basis and others, the concept fails application of the RBOT "Merit Test".
RBOT Media Release for issues: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11952.msg173638#msg173638

- BCC realises that its not going to work as proposed.

- BCC (under Blue Team) modifies the proposal into a BRT proposal. To avoid breaking an election promise, the reworked proposal retains the 'Metro' title of the original LM Quirk proposal so that it technically isn't a broken election promise.

- We now have the BRT proposal, with the Metro name inherited from Quirk's previous rail-based proposal. This is then retro-justified as being a generic PT branding (for example, Adelaide Metro and Metro Tasmania).

They didn't even call it "MetroBus", like Sydney.

Is it a Metro? Quick Test
- Does the service operate in a grade separated right-of-way?
- Does the service maintain an off-peak service frequency of at least every 10 minutes, 7 days per week?
- Does it use trains? With trains being defined as running on rails and being unable to leave the guideway (a bus can leave the guideway to run on roads, a train cannot).

References

Why busways? Styles of planning and mode-choice decision-making in Brisbane's transport networks
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07293682.2015.1047873

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk's 'Quack' Metro is a Dead Duck!
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=176602