Brisbane Subway

[ozbob]

https://web.archive.org/web/20120610054630/http://www.connectingseq.qld.gov.au/Libraries/Publications_split/Draft_Connecting_SEQ_2031_-_factsheet_rail.pdf

^

Brisbane Subway [Original concept as published in the Connecting SEQ 2031]

An extra 100 000 people are forecast to live in inner Brisbane (CBD, Spring Hill, Milton, South
Brisbane and Fortitude Valley) by 2031, bringing the total population to 288 000. Coupled with
doubling of employment in the area from 209 000 in 2006 to 403 000 in 2031, this will mean
about 2.4 million trips a day in the inner city (up from about one million in 2006).
The Brisbane Subway will be delivered as an entirely new network, with completely separate
operations to the existing rail network.
The London Underground and New York City subway are well known examples of this style of rail operation.

Features of a Brisbane subway would include:

• ultra-high frequencies, with only 90 seconds needed between services for safe operations
• closely spaced stations for higher accessibility
• ability to turn more sharply and tackle steeper grades than the present suburban rail.

Brisbane Subway

• priority corridor from Toowong to West End to Bowen Hills/Newstead

• longer term opportunities to expand:
− Bowen Hills/Newstead to Airport Village via Hamilton North Shore
− Newstead to Bulimba

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> 'The next big project' after Cross River Rail: Is it time to dust off the Brisbane Subway?

It was meant to be the next big thing after Cross River Rail, but the planned east-west Brisbane Subway has been largely forgotten.

Indeed, it barely entered the public consciousness when it was first mooted in a 2010 south-east Queensland public transport plan, as the more immediate Cross River Rail hogged the headlines.

Now, with the 2032 Brisbane Olympic Games on the horizon, there are calls for it to be placed back on the agenda. ...

... Public transport advocate Robert Dow, from commuter lobby group Rail Back on Track, counted himself as a fan of the subway proposal.

Dow said the upcoming 2032 Olympics, and a new prime minister with a history of backing public transport projects, meant it was time for the Queensland government to put the subway back on the agenda.

"Maybe with the change of [federal] government, they might have enough courage to resubmit the business case (Cross River Rail business case) because if [the federal government] can pop up $2 billion, which is quite reasonable when you look at what the other states are getting," he said.

"Now, if they $2 billion, that would be very handy for removing some level crossings, upgrading the Sunshine Coast line and doing some preliminary work on a proper subway." ..

... Dow said the subway's benefits were clear.

"It will provide novel mass transit in an east-west/west-east direction, across fairly dense residential and activity suburbs," he said.

"It will take pressure off the surface road system, it will take pressure off the surface rail system.

"It'll make cross-suburban connections a lot easier and being high-frequency mass transit, it'll be very, very successful.

"Frequency is the most important factor in getting people to use public transport." ...

[ozbob]

The Greens

The Brisbane Subway: the next step

https://electionwatch.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/2032356/Planning-Brisbanes-Clean-Transport-Future_final_0.pdf

^

The Greens proposed Brisbane Subway page 1

[SteelPan]

Can anyone, REALLY see the current state govt getting behind this?   

[ozbob]

^ well, if they don't they can probably kiss Government goodbye ... 

Momentum is building.  The Greens proposal above is a good one.

[ozbob]

Facebook ...

[kram0]

A proper Brisbane Metro should definitely be investigated for long term planning. Doubt we'll see it in time for 2032. This is still my preferred layout with maybe a branch at the southern end to both Toowong and UQ.

https://brisbanedevelopment.com/brisbane-needs-an-east-west-mass-rapid-transit/

[Cazza]

Indro would probably be the preferred western terminus, given the geometry (if trying to service West End and UQ), the key rail interchange it provides and the abundance of existing and future potential bus connections. Plus, that will allow for future potential extension towards Kenmore and Centenary/Darra (should feasibility, demand and funding permit).

I would also see huge merit in it extending up to Toombul. A subway/metro (proper metro we are talking here BCC) is only as successful as the connections it provides. Having bi-directional travel along the entire length of the line would be huge in terms of opening up the transport network to more than the population solely along the line. Look at the Victoria Line in London- it is the busiest underground line, runs every 90 seconds or better during peaks and has transfer points to other rail services at every station except Pimlico. Easy transfers plus high frequency services creates such strong and attractive transport networks. (Yes, I understand Brisbane is far from what London is).

Anyway, this is my take on it purely from a desktop review:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/edit?mid=1Mvk9EUGgp3iEcbXfVsuqGNrMJ4RwiS-m&ll=-27.47557561734941%2C153.026278&z=12

[Rail Rookie]

For any route proposal, where would the stabling yard etc. be located? I can't see anywhere that is flat, doesn't flood or has abundance of space etc. I had used Cazza route and adjusted it, instead of going to Hamilton my route goes back towards city from Bulimba (I think extending Doomben Line to Hamilton would suffice). However my Metro City idea would probably cost $25-30B and without knowing where to have stabling yard near city, I can't see how I could break it up in Stages.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1XpCbs8Xj6RRkf8__T7lF0w_xVGbGORQ&usp=sharing
   

[#Metro]

Converting the Eastern Busway to metro and then using that to tunnel under UQ and terminate out at Indooroopilly would serve both CBD-bound and UQ-bound passengers and provide a route with an absolute advantage over car (as the next best car route is either via the CBD or via Tennyson).

There would be a lot of interchange, but Toronto manages to do it, and so can we.

[Cazza]

Not that I've looked into it too much, but there's a whole lot of land at the Airport (some areas less flood prone and easier to access than others). Plus, a decent chunk of the industry close to Northshore Hamilton has numbered days with the Olympic Village moving in. I can't see the Doomben Racecourse going as a big loss either

[Ari 🚋]

Imagine the semantic hell this could cause to infrequent commuters. They've got the metro (which is actually a bus), the subway, cross-river rail (which consistently gets referred to as 'Brisbane's underground'), and all the signs around the network which point to a 'subway' that's actually a pedestrian underpass!

[Cazza]

Plus how pretty much all busway stations are just referred to as 'XX Station"

[STB]

Converting the Eastern Busway to metro and then using that to tunnel under UQ and terminate out at Indooroopilly would serve both CBD-bound and UQ-bound passengers and provide a route with an absolute advantage over car (as the next best car route is either via the CBD or via Tennyson).

There would be a lot of interchange, but Toronto manages to do it, and so can we.

Tunnelling under UQ was talked about when the Eastern Busway was being put together - UQ Senate voted against it and prevented it from happening.

[Jonno]

It's in their Master Plan now but suspect QLD Govt/Fefs will need to pay

[verbatim9]

Converting the Eastern Busway to metro and then using that to tunnel under UQ and terminate out at Indooroopilly would serve both CBD-bound and UQ-bound passengers and provide a route with an absolute advantage over car (as the next best car route is either via the CBD or via Tennyson).

There would be a lot of interchange, but Toronto manages to do it, and so can we.

Tunnelling under UQ was talked about when the Eastern Busway was being put together - UQ Senate voted against it and prevented it from happening.

They have changed policy and now support tunneling underneath their land.

[Jonno]

^ well, if they don't they can probably kiss Government goodbye ... 

Momentum is building.  The Greens proposal above is a good one.

I think this was from Ben Pennings run at mayor? I had forgotten about it

[verbatim9]

I have as well as others have been talking about a route from Kenmore, Chapel Hill, Indooroopilly, UQ then West End for ages. I believe the Greens have adopted the rationale behind this proposal

[SurfRail]

Tunnelling under UQ was talked about when the Eastern Busway was being put together - UQ Senate voted against it and prevented it from happening.

If the State genuinely wanted to do it I don't think UQ could stop it.  I think they are a bit more sensible now anyway.

Apart from only running to Hamilton and not beyond, the Greens' version is probably the best version of this I've seen.  You'd probably have to extend it past here just for the purpose of having access to a depot somewhere on industrial or airport land to the north.

[timh]

Stabling on the industrial land at Hamilton is my preference.

As for a northern connection Cazza, for me it makes most sense to actually link the new Subway up to the Doomben line, and convert Doomben to Metro standards. Yes requires some LX removals and duplication but I think it may actually be quicker to the city from Doomben by travelling via the new Subway.

Would also require a 5th separated platform at EJ, turning it into a terminus. Eliminates the flat junction at EJ and creates almost an inner suburbs loop all the way from Clayfield to Indro /Toowong

[verbatim9]

In Qld---> Missing the Meanjin Line: The gaps in Northshore Hamilton's grand vision

Current plans for the council's $1 billion Brisbane Metro suggest the new transit service will go nowhere near Hamilton and an ambitious concept floated by the Bligh government for a Brisbane "subway" running from Toowong to the airport via Northshore Hamilton – dubbed the Meanjin Line by former transport minister Paul Lucas – sank without a trace.

On the Gold Coast, light rail has transformed what was long considered a public transport desert into an efficient system of moving large numbers of people from one place to another.

[Jonno]

Just rode the Sydney Metro!! We need to build Brisbane Subway (only because BCC have bastardized the word Metro) now!!

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Like trains through the hourglass: Brisbane's transport problem – and solution

... But, just maybe, the next step towards that fix is contained within 2011's Connecting SEQ 2031 document, released by Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk in her previous life as a transport minister. Just maybe, that document is worth another look.

Just maybe, it's time to dust off the Brisbane Subway. ...

... Importantly, it would be an actual Brisbane metro (while it's a laudable project, Brisbane City Council's planned mass transit system is no metro) that would make it deserving of its self-proclaimed "New World City" status. ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1688989267350130693

[verbatim9]

As I have been saying for years we need new infrastructure for faster crosstown trips.

Extend the busway to Indooroopilly then to Chapel Hill from UQ.

Restart the Brisbane Subway iniatives.

In regards to the road network they should be building the tunnel from Toowong cemetery to Buranda as well to take pressure off Coronation Drive.

[SurfRail]

In regards to the road network they should be building the tunnel from Toowong cemetery to Buranda as well to take pressure off Coronation Drive.

Why though?  Building motorways doesn't relieve traffic, it creates it.

One of 2 things will happen:

- If tolled, it will do sweet bugger all for existing traffic because nobody will want to use it (a la every single tolled road delivered in the last 15 years within 5km of the CBD).

- If untolled, it will just induce more car traffic.

Neither of these is a good outcome and will result in capital misallocation away from the public transport system and from active transport infrastructure. 

The area around Buranda is already horrible enough with all the transport infrastructure through it as it stands, without having to shoehorn in more tunnel portals.

[SteelPan]

Again, for the zillionth time, the BCC originally proposed a tracked "Metro" project and got stuff-all support from....wait for it....the current STATE Govt....I know, who'd have thought, the current STATE Govt anti-rail, of any type...shocking news no-doubt (to no one).

Hence BCC had to go it alone and on a NO-Track basis!

Will Brisbane get a subway anytime [relatively] "soon"?? Probably, the day after Hell freezes over....the current mob at 1 William St are simply useless! 

The best path forward here, is to establish....YAWN....a properly legislated and resourced Public Transit Authority to takeover the studying, planning, construction and operation/maintenance of all public transit in SEQ!  From that structure will flow the projects really needed, with a lot LESS political BS in the air and bloated bureaucracies, overflowing with past their prime career staffers, with little to no actual interest in public transit!

Until the above happens, enjoy watching Hell freeze over!   

[Gazza]

The Metro BCC proposed was a very short section replacing the busway between Woolloongabba and Herston.
Here is the map from the BCC election campaign.



It was a useless design because for example it didn't even reach an important destination like UQ.

It was justified on the basis you would catch a bus to Gabba or Herston, and then ride a metro into the CBD.
But here's the thing, CRR was already happening, and the Graham Quirk metro had its termni right next to the CRR stations anyway.

So if you wanted to dump bus passengers on the edge of the CBD, you could dump them into CRR and not even build the metro!


Also, the east-west subway is a better plan because it's an actual new route.

What's your reasoning SteelPan??!
That because BCC proposed a crap subway route we can't have any now?!

[Jonno]

In regards to the road network they should be building the tunnel from Toowong cemetery to Buranda as well to take pressure off Coronation Drive.

Why though?  Building motorways doesn't relieve traffic, it creates it.

One of 2 things will happen:

- If tolled, it will do sweet bugger all for existing traffic because nobody will want to use it (a la every single tolled road delivered in the last 15 years within 5km of the CBD).

- If untolled, it will just induce more car traffic.

Neither of these is a good outcome and will result in capital misallocation away from the public transport system and from active transport infrastructure. 

The area around Buranda is already horrible enough with all the transport infrastructure through it as it stands, without having to shoehorn in more tunnel portals.

   

[SteelPan]

.....Also, the east-west subway is a better plan because it's an actual new route.

What's your reasoning SteelPan??!
That because BCC proposed a crap subway route we can't have any now?!

Huh???

[#Metro]

It is difficult to entertain subway proposals when basics and other relatively easy stuff like extended BUZ service to Bulimba, Yeronga, Centenary etc and frequent off-peak train service has not been dealt with.

Perth has more train stations with all day frequent service than we do.

There is no reason to think that the Queensland Government seriously intends to build one any time soon.

[Gazza]

.....Also, the east-west subway is a better plan because it's an actual new route.

What's your reasoning SteelPan??!
That because BCC proposed a crap subway route we can't have any now?!

What im saying is that not all subway proposals are created equal.

You said:

"BCC originally proposed a tracked "Metro" project and got stuff-all support from....wait for it....the current STATE Govt"

But the one proposed by Graham Quirk sucked bad, so the state was correct to not get onboard with it.

Something like the E-W route is much better, so deserves more support.

Huh???

[Jonno]

It is difficult to entertain subway proposals when basics and other relatively easy stuff like extended BUZ service to Bulimba, Yeronga, Centenary etc and frequent off-peak train service has not been dealt with.

Perth has more train stations with all day frequent service than we do.

There is no reason to think that the Queensland Government seriously intends to build one any time soon.

none of these are mutually exclusive!! Can do it all if they choose!!

[#Metro]

none of these are mutually exclusive!! Can do it all if they choose!!

Jonno, I wonder though if they could choose a lower cost path and get 10 minute service to train stations and bus stops in the inner city at a fraction of the cost and much sooner. A 16 km line from Toowong to Brisbane Airport via the CBD would easily be in the range of $8-$16 billion.

Sydney Metro vs Perth
Let's look at train frequencies in Sydney on the Sydney Metro. As you can see the off-peak frequencies for a city as dense as Sydney is a service every 10 minutes in the off-peak. Here is an extract (annotations added):



And here is an extract from Perth on the Fremantle line, which got a frequency boost now that Perth Airport Line trains also run along the line to Claremont (annotations added):



(in peak you can see Perth trains run every 6 min to Claremont which compares very well with Sydney's 4 min frequency)

Perth trains are running at a higher frequency all day on sections of the Fremantle Line than trains are running on the Sydney Metro off-peak!

Making a Metro out of the Existing System

The main thing about a metro is to achieve 10-minute train frequency or better in both directions all day. For a fraction of the $8-$16 billion and effort needed to bore a whole new train line from Toowong to Brisbane Airport via the CBD it might be possible to just add more off peak trains to inner sections of the Ipswich, Beenleigh, Cleveland, Airport, and Ferny Grove Lines etc. and make the infrastructure adjustments needed to support that 10 min bi-directional frequency.

Some areas like Bulimba do not have train stations. In that case can we look at running BUZ / CityGlider / Brisbane BRT Metro buses every 10 min?

Something to think about. 

Sources:

Australia: Pitfalls of Metro Envy
https://humantransit.org/2010/04/australia-the-pitfalls-of-metroenvy.html

It's been easy to jump from those desires to the notion that since Australia doesn't have metros now, it needs to build them. But Bowen's work in Melbourne (and our own work on the Sydney Morning Herald inquiry) are pointing out that our cities already have a network of grade-separated rail lines covering the areas of European density, and that the quickest way to get a "metro" level of mobility is simply to run these lines much more frequently.

Sydney Metro Timetable https://transportnsw.info/documents/timetables/93-M-Sydney-Metro-North-West-20201221.pdf

TransPerth Fremantle Line Timetable https://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/timetablepdfs/Fremantle%20Line%2020230612.pdf

[Jonno]

I see it more as a priority and/or starting point rather than a choice. It is all needed and of course the best value for money should go first (e.g. cycling infrastructure).

Public transport has been the poor neglected cousin in transport funding and cities squabble over minimal funding.  That is the key change needed.

[#Metro]

Public transport has been the poor neglected cousin in transport funding and cities squabble over minimal funding.  That is the key change needed.

I think the big shift is moving from an concrete-first approach to a service-first approach.

If Perth were to add just two trains per hour to most lines, the entire system of ~ 70+ stations would then meet the metro service level of trains every 10 min or better.

As above, Perth already meets or exceeds this standard on sections of its network.

I also suspect there is an element of govt marketing a vision of something that is always 'on the horizon' with subways, HSR, CoastConnect etc to get talking points.

This only works if the thing talked about cannot be delivered any time soon, or at all.

[minbrisbane]

Yep, I'd agree.  Use what we have to boost usage of Public Transport first, then add the 'shiny new things' with the higher service level from the outset.  Develop an actual deliverable plan, instead of pie in the sky plans of high speed rail in 30 years.  We need incremental change to get there. 

[Gazza]

So, to make a metro out of an existing system, you need to have an existing system right?

I agree with the notion of running more service, not a single person would disagree with that.

What I disagree with is this notion that "shiny new lines" are a bad thing.
There wouldn't be an existing network to run 4tph or 6tph on if forefathers had taken that attitude.

Like in Perth, prior to electrification, their rail system looked like this. 3 relatively short lines, and nothing that went north.


If I take each line as roughly having an extended catchment of 4km (for buses, P+R, cycle, scooters) you can now see that with the various Metronet projects, there is more of perth with rail then without, and I believe it is both the frequency and the relative proximity to rail that has driven patronage.


And the stats speak for themselves. 60% of the patronage comes from the too "shiny new lines" built post 1993, to Joondalup and Mandurah.
Both of those lines were said to be "too expensive" at the time*

So out of 70+ stations, 24 are responsible for 60% of the boardings, the shiny new ones.

What is the benefit in ignoring this evidence and real world experience?

*Reference
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-22/ellenbrook-train-line-following-mandurah-railway-debate/9682162

It was a common refrain from members of the Liberal Party of the time, with one frontbencher saying the Labor government should "can the whole bloody project" and another labelling it an "absolute waste of money".

"The government is trying to con the people of Western Australia into believing they need a railway line when they do not," then-Liberal MP Paul Omodei said in 2002.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-17/ellenbrook-rail-line-shaping-up-as-biggest-wa-political-football/8950036

In the ensuing years Ellenbrook residents have endured promises of delivery in a second term, a subsequent swift backtrack on that and even pledges from the Liberals of a new rapid bus transit line to the suburb as a substitute for rail

In my view, you cannot simultaneously hold up Perth as an example of a successful rail system, whilst trying to follow the same polices of the liberals of there, which is to say rail is not needed or that bus rapid transit will do instead.

[#Metro]

Develop an actual deliverable plan, instead of pie in the sky plans of high speed rail in 30 years.  We need incremental change to get there.

+1

[minbrisbane]

So, to make a metro out of an existing system, you need to have an existing system right?

I agree with the notion of running more service, not a single person would disagree with that.

What I disagree with is this notion that "shiny new lines" are a bad thing.
There wouldn't be an existing network to run 4tph or 6tph on if forefathers had taken that attitude.

Like in Perth, prior to electrification, their rail system looked like this. 3 relatively short lines, and nothing that went north.


If I take each line as roughly having an extended catchment of 4km (for buses, P+R, cycle, scooters) you can now see that with the various Metronet projects, there is more of perth with rail then without, and I believe it is both the frequency and the relative proximity to rail that has driven patronage.


And the stats speak for themselves. 60% of the patronage comes from the too "shiny new lines" built post 1993, to Joondalup and Mandurah.
Both of those lines were said to be "too expensive" at the time*

So out of 70+ stations, 24 are responsible for 60% of the boardings, the shiny new ones.

What is the benefit in ignoring this evidence and real world experience?

*Reference
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-22/ellenbrook-train-line-following-mandurah-railway-debate/9682162

It was a common refrain from members of the Liberal Party of the time, with one frontbencher saying the Labor government should "can the whole bloody project" and another labelling it an "absolute waste of money".

"The government is trying to con the people of Western Australia into believing they need a railway line when they do not," then-Liberal MP Paul Omodei said in 2002.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-17/ellenbrook-rail-line-shaping-up-as-biggest-wa-political-football/8950036

In the ensuing years Ellenbrook residents have endured promises of delivery in a second term, a subsequent swift backtrack on that and even pledges from the Liberals of a new rapid bus transit line to the suburb as a substitute for rail

In my view, you cannot simultaneously hold up Perth as an example of a successful rail system, whilst trying to follow the same polices of the liberals of there, which is to say rail is not needed or that bus rapid transit will do instead.

I agree here - what I meant by "shiny new things" is the propensity for our political leaders to announce a new study here and there and not actually proceed with anything despite it being plain as day something is needing to be done, then build a new road or add lanes. 

I'm certainly not against new PT infrastructure - I'm against this seeming holding pattern for political gain.