RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Undoubtedly, everything has problems. If you are talking about replacing the bus fleet, you could stick with the 65pax buses that Translink currently operates, but with doors both sides. Combined with pre-paid fares and all door boarding, you could have a centre island platform and a segregated Class B ROW that runs at street level from 15m before the platform to say 40m past it, allowing easy entry/exit for buses from the busway, and also use of the nearest general traffic lane for passing.

Quote from: hU0N on March 31, 2015, 08:32:34 AMProblem is still passing lanes. Without passing lanes at stations, the capacity of the busway maxed out at around 4000ppdh. For that kind of capacity, the project isn't worth the cost.

Counter flow has the disadvantage that you can't even use the nearest traffic lane as an informal passing lane without causing head on bus collisions.

I don't think capacity of a median busway will be as much of an issue. If you are using Cultural Centre (before the upgrade) as an example, it isn't a good one as it had all kinds of bus routes going through it - hence the messiness and lower capacity due to the sheer number of routes stopping there. In theory, if you used a Class B ROW and started to run it more like LRT, you could just have three 'spines' (Carindale - UQ, Carindale - QSBS and Carindale - City via CCB). Given they'd generally be stopping at all stops, I don't think it'd be a problem.

The bigger issue I see is that there is no room for a median busway aside from in the tram track stretch between the Shell Petrol station in Camp Hill and the tyre place (converted petrol station) opposite the IGA at Carina. All up, this is a stretch of a mere 1.3km, of which 400m is parking for the shops that you are going to have to tear up (which is sure to be popular with the local traders). A 'median busway' would be difficult for the buses to get on to, probably only contain 1-2 stops, and then the buses would have to get back on to Old Cleveland Road. Further in, you face the issue of there simply not being enough room for a median busway, and further out, you face the issue of getting buses from the median into Carindale/there being very few buses going past Carindale.

The real problems with Old Cleveland Road are further in - essentially where the busway ends now right through to Boundary Road. Bus lanes through here would be an issue as it would cut the road capacity significantly. Personally, transit lanes (T2 initially, moving to T3 if the lane remains congested as a T2) would probably be the best way forward, with these transit lanes operating all day all week, possibly even 24/7. When a road is only two lanes in each direction, I find it difficult to justify a bus lane as you halve the road carrying capacity for cars. For three lanes or more, the reduction in capacity by bringing in bus lanes is not as much of an issue.

I think there is little reason why OC Rd cannot accommodate 2 traffic lanes AND T2 or better for most of its length.  The median can be narrowed in plenty of spots. 

Inbound of Langlands Park there is no need because there shouldn't be any buses through here paralleling the busway to begin with.  The Logan Rd routes should be joining the busway at Buranda and the SillyGlider is there for the inner part between Stones Corner and the Gabba.

Quote from: SurfRail on March 31, 2015, 17:03:29 PM
The median can be narrowed in plenty of spots. 

Boundary Rd through to Langlands Pk, the median is, almost entirely, under half a lane wide, or it's a turning lane, or recovering from being a turning lane.

Outside T-lanes now, full tunnel when the next boom hits.

There appears to be a parking lane or shoulder on parts of OCR and then there are the house set backs as well.
Resumption would only be at stations, at which there are only few. Even then that would likely be limited to front yards only, houses may be spared.
Tunneling is mind-blowingly expensive, we may not see Eastern Busway (Class A) for 20 years, if ever, at this rate.

A comment was made about 'reducing (sacred) car capacity'. The purpose of transport is to move people. While OCR is not a freeway, it is generally known that a freeway lane would take 2000 pphd. There are two lanes, so OCR would take 4000 pphd absolute max.

A single busway lane running a bus one a minute with 150 pax buses would have capacity of 9000 pphd, so overall:

4000 pphd 'Do nothing'
- 2000 pphd 'loss of car lane'
+ 9000 pphd 'gain of bus capacity'
----
11 000 pphd in peak hour
----

That's almost tripling the capacity of OCR to take people. And it is the peak capacity that is most critical.

Quote from: SurfRail on March 31, 2015, 17:03:29 PM
I think there is little reason why OC Rd cannot accommodate 2 traffic lanes AND T2 or better for most of its length.  The median can be narrowed in plenty of spots. 

Inbound of Langlands Park there is no need because there shouldn't be any buses through here paralleling the busway to begin with.  The Logan Rd routes should be joining the busway at Buranda and the SillyGlider is there for the inner part between Stones Corner and the Gabba.

Actually, it couldn't.  The road is 1.5 chains wide, approximately 30m.  It is classified as an arterial road, which imposes some engineering standards. Specifically, these requirements are (amongst others)

• approx 6.5m minimum footpath width (4.25m if there is at least 2m between the kerb and the edge of the kerbside traffic lane, 6.5m if there is less than 2m between the kerb and the edge of the kerbside traffic lane).
• 2m minimum median width, widening to a minimum of 6m approaching intersections.
• 3.5m minimum traffic lane width

So, of the 30m roadway width, you lose 15m straight up to the median and footpaths.  This leaves just 15m for traffic lanes, of which you would get just 4.  Two T3 / bus lanes and two general traffic lanes, with no parking, and only 1m left over.  Once you get to the old tram track section, the road widens to 2 chains, or a bit over 40m, which could indeed accomodate three lanes in each direction (again, without parking).

I doubt that either council or the state government would rebuild the corridor as a substandard arterial without the minimum median, but even if they did, you would have to reduce the median to nothing AND reduce the footpaths below 4m each.  To give you an idea what this would be like, the southern approach to the Story Bridge is only a touch narrower than the OCR corridor, and it has 3 lanes each direction with no median.  Go up there and imagine that with no concrete barrier, the bustle of shops on your left, bus stops on the right and traffic whizzing past right in the gutter.  It's far from a great image.

Long and short of it is that there are two options to build on road bus lanes on OCR.

• 1 HOV lane + 1 general traffic lane per direction, most likely with no parking as bringing the road up to the current standards would require more (not less) space dedicated to footpaths, medians etc.
• Resumption of all the front yards between Langlands Park and Orwell St, and demolition of most existing structures between Langlands Park and Bennetts Road, which would be really quite expensive.

Quoteapprox 6.5m minimum footpath width (4.25m if there is at least 2m between the kerb and the edge of the kerbside traffic lane, 6.5m if there is less than 2m between the kerb and the edge of the kerbside traffic lane).

6.5 m footpath? Why does it need to be so wide? Or is that a total summing both sides of the road?

Quote2m minimum median width, widening to a minimum of 6m approaching intersections.

Does the current OCR comply with this?

Well, standard footpaths in Brisbane (minor roads) are 4.25m wide, and the extra width is, I would imagine, a safety buffer given that it's only required if the kerbside traffic lane runs right along the gutter.

I'm guessing that concrete barriers along the footpath might be acceptable in lieu, ditto with the median. But that would just be a horribly unattractive design, don't you agree?

Obviously OCR is currently a substandard arterial, so maybe, if all you did was some paint and some signage, you might get away with just converting a traffic lane to HOV. Anything more though, particularly adding extra lanes, I can't see that getting done without upgrading the whole corridor, which costs parking/traffic space, or costs resumptions.

What about median running and elevated sections of tramway in others? Trams as they do not require as much width.

Queensland Parliament E-petition

Prioritise the Eastern Busway completion to Redland City

>> http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/work-of-assembly/petitions/e-petition?PetNum=2388

Quote from: ozbob on May 15, 2015, 10:22:31 AM
Queensland Parliament E-petition

Prioritise the Eastern Busway completion to Redland City

>> http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/work-of-assembly/petitions/e-petition?PetNum=2388

This petition is being promoted by the Deputy Mayor.  Amazing hypocrisy that Council, State and Federal Govts could not find the $50M to enable Legacy Way for ' 2000 express buses daily '  out of project savings,  but think that a billion dollars for a busway extension is fine ..

The Eastern Busway is definitely one of Brisbane's highest priority projects. 

If BCC are so interested in extending it, why not pay for it themselves instead of the wasteful KSD and Lytton Road upgrades.

Fix up the damn bus network before asking for more $$$ to roll out the concrete!

New sections of busway will easily be $400 million/km because tunnels need to be bored through hilly parts, houses need to be demolished and land resumed (house prices are going nuts, costs will be massive) etc.

Sent to all outlets:

16th May 2015

Good Morning,

Brisbane City Council should pay $2.2 Billion for Eastern Busway

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers welcomes a petition by Deputy Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner for extending the Eastern Busway.

New Bus Network Proposal (Updated) >> http://tiny.cc/newnetwork

Current Brisbane City Council Bus Network >> http://tiny.cc/checkyourbus

Report: Frequency is Freedom >> http://backontrack.org/docs/bus/reform/BusReformBlueprint.pdf

The latest extension to the Eastern Busway cost $465 million dollars for just 1 km. Substantial home demolition, compulsory land resumption and extremely expensive tunnelling works are necessary for the extension of the Eastern Busway.

We estimate the per-kilometre cost to be around $300 million per kilometre. A 15-km extension of the Eastern Busway to Capalaba would thus cost approximately $4.5 billion dollars. How much of this amount is Brisbane City Council prepared to contribute?

We think a fair contribution by the Lord Mayor would be around $2.2 billion dollars.

Our evaluation also suggests significant reforms to the Brisbane City Council bus network are necessary. The problem is this: an extended Eastern Busway will accelerate the dumping of massive volumes of buses into the South East Busway, pushing it to overcapacity and causing a catastrophic flood of congestion at Cultural Centre, blocking the Victoria Bridge and gridlocking the Brisbane CBD during peak hour.

The Cultural Centre busway is already operating over capacity and is flooded with half-empty buses in peak hour. Brisbane City Council's rejection of bus superstops proposed in 2013 also means the kerb space required to drop more passengers off in the Brisbane CBD is lacking. Brisbane City Council must make difficult reforms to its own bus network before funds are released for this new infrastructure.

Brisbane City Council must engage in bus reform to solve these problems. These problems will not go away, and will grow worse with time.

Our New Bus Network Proposal shows that high frequency bus routes could be rolled out to Bulimba (BulimbaGlider), along Macrossan Avenue and Stanley roads in Seven Hills, along Chatsworth Road and Winstanley streets in Coorparoo and Camp Hill, with minimal new funding simply by rearranging the existing bus services.

We look forward to Deputy Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner confirming Brisbane City Council's anticipated contribution of $2.2 billion towards the Eastern Busway project.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org


References:

Brisbane Bus Reform: Brisbane City Council's Bus Network - What Went Wrong?
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11175.0

E-petition
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/work-of-assembly/petitions/e-petition?PetNum=2388

Brisbane Bus Reform: 'FREE' bus upgrade for Seven Hills and Carina!
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11202

Does anyone have a copy of the draft alignment of the Eastern Busway beyond Langlands Park? In my research I've found bits here and there but no complete documents. TMR doesn't have them anymore on their website.

Quote from: timh on December 16, 2019, 18:10:18 PM
Does anyone have a copy of the draft alignment of the Eastern Busway beyond Langlands Park? In my research I've found bits here and there but no complete documents. TMR doesn't have them anymore on their website.

Sorry, I don't have them, but I remember there was a lot of tunneling, pretty much all the way from Langlands Park to the old tram line up on top of the hill at Carina. It was then in the median to Carindale. That was back when the state government had big plans and spent big on public transport. That all came crashing down somewhere between the GFC, the water grid, and the 2011 floods.

Quote from: OzGamer on December 17, 2019, 10:36:51 AM

Quote from: timh on December 16, 2019, 18:10:18 PM
Does anyone have a copy of the draft alignment of the Eastern Busway beyond Langlands Park? In my research I've found bits here and there but no complete documents. TMR doesn't have them anymore on their website.

Sorry, I don't have them, but I remember there was a lot of tunneling, pretty much all the way from Langlands Park to the old tram line up on top of the hill at Carina. It was then in the median to Carindale. That was back when the state government had big plans and spent big on public transport. That all came crashing down somewhere between the GFC, the water grid, and the 2011 floods.

All good, cheers. That's what I've found out from my research as well. I have alignment maps from Carindale to Capalaba, with a small section around Belmont missing. I'm just trying to work out where the underground stations would have been placed between Langlands Park and the tram tracks. I know there's the big underground one planned for Coorparoo Junction TOD (Transit oriented development without the transit, what a joke), but not sure where the others were to be located.

There was one at Bennetts Road (I think), then it would have emerged into the median somewhere around the top of Camp Hill and run in the median until just after Daniells Street, then a bridge structure over Creek Rd into where the at grade parking is (which would have been the busway and main interchange).  There would have been dedicated busway all the way to Scrub Rd, not sure what the situation was after that.

Wayback Machine on the TransLink website in around the 2005-2006 window might help.

Quote from: SurfRail on December 17, 2019, 12:12:00 PM
There was one at Bennetts Road (I think), then it would have emerged into the median somewhere around the top of Camp Hill and run in the median until just after Daniells Street, then a bridge structure over Creek Rd into where the at grade parking is (which would have been the busway and main interchange).  There would have been dedicated busway all the way to Scrub Rd, not sure what the situation was after that.

Wayback Machine on the TransLink website in around the 2005-2006 window might help.

Jackpot. You were right, Wayback Machine delivered the goods:

https://web.archive.org/web/20060819194426/http://translink.com.au/qt/translin.nsf/index/busway_eastern

Confirms most of what I already knew, good to see the complete alignment with station locations. The whole section from Langlands park until after Carindale is extremely complex and undoubtedly would be expensive. After that I think it would actually be relatively simple to construct, but the current traffic volumes doesn't really justify it. It will in future though.

^ They could, of course, just run the whole thing in the middle of Old Cleveland Rd and it would be much cheaper. But people would freak out about loss of road space. 

Sunday Mail 2nd August 2020 page 25

LNP Vow to board bus plan

If they can get it extended to Coorparoo in their first term that would be great. It would also encourage further urban renewal around the Coorparoo suburban centre. The bikeway should be completed alongside from Stones Corner to Coorparoo.  This would improve Active Transport outcomes for the area.

5 whole million dollars out of a $1 billion package just for a business case... Sounds like it will become another project gathering dust if the LNP are elected, just like you said has happened under Labor.

Quote from: Cazza on August 02, 2020, 18:49:26 PM
5 whole million dollars out of a $1 billion package just for a business case... Sounds like it will become another project gathering dust if the LNP are elected, just like you said has happened under Labor.

My thoughts exactly!!

Please oh please do not let this useless Metro vehicle cripple capacity on the eastern Transit/Busway as well!!  Will ensure PT never gets above 10 % mode share in SEQ!

 https://twitter.com/bne_lordmayor/status/1590795051952922624?

Hey Jonno, I think you should try and look at things more positively. This announcement is a big win! Commitment to a grade separated busway all the way to Capalaba, and collaboration between 2 councils and state is MASSIVE. Honestly if they build it properly this is the best outcome for a busway along this corridor

I for one am very excited about this announcement. The tunnel from Langlands to Camp Hill will obviously be very expensive, but the sections after Carindale relatively cheap.

Getting a grade separated Mass transit solution to Sleeman Sports complex will be important for the Olympics. I'm guessing that's a driver in prioritising this now. I'm very glad to see they're going all the way to Capalaba. Huge win for residents in the area who are pretty far from the Cleveland line

^ +1

It is study.  See what comes up.

https://twitter.com/bne_lordmayor/status/1590795056101101568

Will the conclusion of the study be a 6 lane motorway under OCR like they proposed for Gympie Road.

Quote from: Gazza on November 11, 2022, 08:19:49 AMWill the conclusion of the study be a 6 lane motorway under OCR like they proposed for Gympie Road.

 

Couriermail --> Brisbane Metro: Funding for Eastern Metro Study to pave way for route through eastern suburbs to Capalaba $

QuoteA direct Brisbane Metro route running through the city's eastern suburbs has the financial support of two councils and the State Government, it can be revealed. Here's what's being proposed.

A direct Brisbane Metro route running through the eastern suburbs to Capalaba will be the subject of a major new study, potentially unlocking a fully-electric travel option to the CBD.

Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner and Redlands Mayor Karen Williams have announced both councils will pitch in funding towards the Eastern Metro Study, along with the state government.

Cr Schrinner said an additional mass transport system for Brisbane's east had long been regarded as necessary, and the study would examine options for extending the existing busway from where it currently ends at Coorparoo through to the Capalaba business district. ...

I think it will be Priority B and Bus lanes in large parts. Tunnelling is a big expense. I would be surprised if they do it all at once in Priority A.

They also might stage it, doing the cheaper or easier parts first, a bit like the Northern Busway.

This means the vehicle will run along some mixed traffic or share intersections with mixed traffic in parts.

It also means... a bus review for the eastern suburbs, because where-ever Metro goes, a bus review must also follow.

This means some of the duplication can come off Old Cleveland Road.

I would like to see a busway entry portal in the vicinity of Wiles Street/Boundary Road Camp Hill as it will facilitate cross-town orbital bus routes that are lacking on the inner Southside.

Good to see LGAs funding public transport. If it were left to the State Government they would have just sat on it forever.

Call me skeptical but history is on my side!!  SEQ is hovering around worst -practice PT levels and one of the key reason just posted the announcement.  Current Metro vehicles means this will look no further than a busway and recreating the mess that we call the SE Busway.  This is why it was important to build Metro correctly as Light Rail...or better.  If 60 Metro Buses are added to the Eastern Busway travelling to the CBD there is no hope in hell of it fitting into the SE Busway.  This route should connect to UQ/Indooroopilly anyway.

Again. Right concept. Wrong vehicle. Plenty of room for

^Presumably the current metro plans for the SEB already factor the 200/222 using it?

QuoteCall me skeptical but history is on my side!!  SEQ is hovering around worst -practice PT levels and one of the key reason just posted the announcement.  Current Metro vehicles means this will look no further than a busway and recreating the mess that we call the SE Busway.  This is why it was important to build Metro correctly as Light Rail...or better.  If 60 Metro Buses are added to the Eastern Busway travelling to the CBD there is no hope in hell of it fitting into the SE Busway.  This route should connect to UQ/Indooroopilly anyway.

I think what will happen is BUZ 222 will be upgraded to Metro, as was the case with the other lines.

The reason why the Eastern Busway has been sat on for a while is because Cultural Centre didn't have the capacity to absorb even more frequent bus routes etc. There wasn't the space.

Now that bottleneck is being removed, it can go ahead.

It is unlikely to be built as LRT needs a frequent rail station to work.

-  If 200-300 people walk off the vehicle at Buranda, it is going to be a problem!

- Any metro bus that pulls up will have to absorb those interchanging passengers, which means a full bus, so you may as well run the Metro all the way to the CBD at that point.

- Cleveland line is also unsuitable as frequency is limited to ~ 15 min in both directions off-peak, so a big unnecessary wait

- BRT can do express service easily, much harder to do on LRT. Expresses are needed to reach into Redlands.

Jonno, on your point about SE Busway being (re)built as rail; I have previously demonstrated elsewhere that the SE Busway patronage can already support true metro rail services, similar to the Sydney Metro Northwest. It carries double the daily patronage of the Sydney Metro Northwest service already. 

Many of the services that use the busway don't actually stop on it of course (ie services that only pass through the Gabba junctions).  The difference is rail can serve every stop with every service without it degrading quality.  The highest capacity element of the busway only exists in a place where serving that location with an actual stop is impossible.

As somebody who does a bus-bus transfer at Buranda every few days in peak hour, I can attest to how profoundly bad an experience it is (and I'm not at all convinced the limited upgrade and network redesign will fix that).

Even before the Cultural Centre outbound platform shut, I deliberately avoided transferring there unless absolutely necessary for the same reason.

puts on tinfoil hat
The ultimate Brisbane Metro network map looks pretty dang similar to #Metro's "super-bus" proposal from 2014...

More seriously, if running Metro vehicles gets at least continuous bus lanes out to Capalaba, that's still an improvement in my books.

The thing about the busway is that it's a victim of its own success. I'm 95% sure we're past the point where we could run mixed-mode. We're talking roughly GCLR-tram-a-minute levels of capacity through Woolloongabba Junction. I don't see how we get out of this without upgrading every core corridor to rail simultaneously across the city. And that's so, so expensive and disruptive.

Quote from: SurfRail on November 11, 2022, 10:24:06 AMMany of the services that use the busway don't actually stop on it of course (ie services that only pass through the Gabba junctions).  The difference is rail can serve every stop with every service without it degrading quality.  The highest capacity element of the busway only exists in a place where serving that location with an actual stop is impossible.

As somebody who does a bus-bus transfer at Buranda every few days in peak hour, I can attest to how profoundly bad an experience it is (and I'm not at all convinced the limited upgrade and network redesign will fix that).

Even before the Cultural Centre outbound platform shut, I deliberately avoided transferring there unless absolutely necessary for the same reason.

10,000 times this. The station experience in peak hour is dangerous, confusing and that's from a stape-hanger's perspective.  Imagine what it is like for the elderly, those living with a disability, the young, tourists, out of towners.....

QuoteIt is unlikely to be built as LRT needs a frequent rail station to work.

You could terminate LRT at the Gabba?

Gavin, where's your LRT plan you did up for OCR a while back?

FYI Metro, Aldonius et. al.: If the 2007-2011 plans are anything to go by, there will be plenty of median running in the Eastern Busway. Especially around Carina where the old tram tracks are, and past Carindale. The expensive tunneled/bridge sections will be Langlands-Carina, and the flyover to Carindale station.

I think despite the cost, it would be stupid not to tunnel Langlands-Carina, especially considering there is already a station cavern (or at least provision for one) at Coorparoo Square.

Please see my other thread: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14785.msg261504#msg261504