Eastern Busway

[somebody]

The only two of those that kind of serves the area is 204 and 206 and are so indirect from that area it's ridiculous.

I still don't follow.  Do you mean to make the 207 continue along Bedievere St?  Creek Rd/Cuthred St isn't that far from Stanley Rd IMO.

[somebody]

I remain baffled that anyone could argue that the 204 shouldn't use the Eastern Busway.  The stops which the 204 currently serves can be seen on this nearmap link: http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.498108,153.046256&z=18&t=h&nmd=20110708

At Stone's Corner, it is currently a coin toss whether to wait for an I/B bus at the busway station or the old stop.  Moving the 204 would make it a pretty easy decision.  It is similar at Langlands Park, except that there are three possible places to wait.  This has got to be exceedingly annoying for locals.

Heading outbound, I guess you would wait on Adelaide St for a 174/175/204, but one problem at a time.

[O_128]

204 needs to moved, post haste, On another note got a 109 to UQ today at about 9:30 and the I/B line of buses stretched from CC to south bank.

[Mr X]

I remain baffled that anyone could argue that the 204 shouldn't use the Eastern Busway.  The stops which the 204 currently serves can be seen on this nearmap link: http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.498108,153.046256&z=18&t=h&nmd=20110708

It's funny sitting at Stones Corner station at this big bus infrastructure with no buses but you see other buses going past on the street outside in traffic!

[ozbob]

TransLink  Eastern Busway information --> http://www.translink.com.au/eastern_maps.php

Some photographs of the tram tracks still visible on Old Cleveland Road Carina.  These will go when the Eastern Busway is constructed.









Photographs R Dow 17th October 2009

Heard Minister Emerson on radio (4BC) saying the trams tracks are to be removed (despite heritage listing) and road widened for traffic.  They were to go for Eastern Busway proposal anyway I guess.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Scott Emerson ‏@scottemerson 14 minutes ago

Joined @kaye_ianMP @SteveDaviesMP @SteveMinnikinMP to announce congestion-busting upgrade of Old Cleveland Rd #qldpol

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> LNP pledge $50m to upgrade Old Cleveland Rd, Labor calls for investment in bus services

A graphic supplied by the Queensland Government about the proposed $50million upgrade to Old Cleveland Rd in Brisbane. LNP members Stve Minnikin, Ian Kaye and Steve Davies were joined by Transport Minister Scott Emerson for the announcemnt, which the LNP has pledged as part of its re-election campaign.

[James]

Should be 5am - 11pm 7 days/wk bus lane in both directions. Combine with service rationalisation and higher capacity buses, you could also chuck in decent signal bus priority for a strong trunk corridor.

You can build infrastructure which operates with the majority of busway's benefits for significantly less cost.

[Jonno]

LNP believe more roads is solution to congestion PT is just a social service not a transport solution!!! Land use and transport failure!!!!

[Gazza]

So, guess this means we wont get a proper busway stop at Carina as per the original plans...

[pandmaster]

Why not use the old tram tracks for trams? 

I think bus network and fare reform should be implemented before spending on any more bus infrastructure. There is no way of knowing what new infrastructure is needed without maximising what we already have.

As for removing the heritage-listed tram tracks: here we Joh again!

[ozbob]

Twitter

Scott Emerson ‏@scottemerson 14 minutes ago

Joined @kaye_ianMP @SteveDaviesMP @SteveMinnikinMP to announce congestion-busting upgrade of Old Cleveland Rd #qldpol

^

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow

@scottemerson @kaye_ianMP @SteveDaviesMP @SteveMinnikinMP Tram Old Cleveland Rd at Carina .. #qldpol

[SurfRail]

It's not as if those rails can actually be reused.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Eastern Busway project back on the table

[ozbob]

[pandmaster]

Hopefully the Feds do not fund the continuation of this failed bus paradigm. Trad is talking a lot (rail tunnel, Eastern Busway) but how close to fruition are they? A bit premature I think.

What about fare and network reform? Not as sexy as infrastructure.

[techblitz]

bring on the busway....coorparoo is a future t.o.d hub and the peak patronage along the corridor warrants it.....politically wise....not feasible for pollies to fiddle around with vehicle lanes along such a busy rd....tis the way of aussie politics unfortunately....

[James]

Eastern busway will be needed eventually, particularly if we ever end up hosting the Olympic Games (which will happen, one day - maybe 2028, maybe 2128) and significant PT access is required out to Chandler. As long as they build large amounts in one go and don't have it cost $250mn+/km, I'm for it.

[Arnz]

Hopefully the Feds do not fund the continuation of this failed bus paradigm. Trad is talking a lot (rail tunnel, Eastern Busway) but how close to fruition are they? A bit premature I think.

What about fare and network reform? Not as sexy as infrastructure.

They won't, unless if throw a motorway on top or next to the busway as part of the project (with the state picking up the tab for the PT part of it).   That's as long as Tony Abbott's policy of "no funding of urban public transport" is in place until he is pressured by his colleagues and/or is removed by his colleagues in another spill.

[#Metro]

Hopefully the Feds do not fund the continuation of this failed bus paradigm. Trad is talking a lot (rail tunnel, Eastern Busway) but how close to fruition are they? A bit premature I think.

It is important not to get too excited. A busway is probably around 10 years away and would cost ca. $2 billion. It would no doubt compete with Cross River Rail ($5-6 BN) and Sunshine Coast line upgrades etc etc.

It's a flash bang announcement, lots of light and noise but it is not going to be there any time soon.


Bus reform can be made sexy. It is also a large megaproject, but without the price tag. Proper taskforce needs to be created for that.

[SurfRail]

bring on the busway....coorparoo is a future t.o.d hub and the peak patronage along the corridor warrants it.....politically wise....not feasible for pollies to fiddle around with vehicle lanes along such a busy rd....tis the way of aussie politics unfortunately....

Bullsh%t.  Victoria Rd in Sydney is heaps busier than Old Cleveland Rd, just as wide in places (except in Sydney it's 3 lanes and not 2) and is riddled with bus lanes.  It's laziness, nothing more.

[hU0N]

Victoria Rd in Sydney is heaps busier than Old Cleveland Rd, just as wide in places (except in Sydney it's 3 lanes and not 2) and is riddled with bus lanes.  It's laziness, nothing more.

I agree.  But I think Victoria Road in Sydney is also a bit of a case study in why not to do bus lanes.  Every time they get to a tricky bit the bus lane stops and presumably the buses have to do the best they can in general traffic.

[Gazza]

The only bit I care about at present is around Carindale, since that would produce actual travel time savings and doesn't require tunneling.

[techblitz]

bring on the busway....coorparoo is a future t.o.d hub and the peak patronage along the corridor warrants it.....politically wise....not feasible for pollies to fiddle around with vehicle lanes along such a busy rd....tis the way of aussie politics unfortunately....

Bullsh%t.  Victoria Rd in Sydney is heaps busier than Old Cleveland Rd, just as wide in places (except in Sydney it's 3 lanes and not 2) and is riddled with bus lanes.  It's laziness, nothing more.

couldnt give 2 hoots about whatever place your talking about...i believe its warranted all the way to carindale....obviously CRR is the priority......this is like asking for bus lanes all the way down mains to compton rds.....it just aint going to happen.....infrastructure creates jobs and concrete is cheap...this is the qld pollies line of thought....where have you been?

[#Metro]

Bus Reform is much faster to achieve and has similar effects, while waiting.

[SurfRail]

Victoria Rd in Sydney is heaps busier than Old Cleveland Rd, just as wide in places (except in Sydney it's 3 lanes and not 2) and is riddled with bus lanes.  It's laziness, nothing more.

I agree.  But I think Victoria Road in Sydney is also a bit of a case study in why not to do bus lanes.  Every time they get to a tricky bit the bus lane stops and presumably the buses have to do the best they can in general traffic.

The point being even without making all the hard decisions you get all the main benefits of a busway for nowhere near the capital outlay.

They cannot be allowed to repeat the nonsensical expenditure on things like Langlands Park again.  If it becomes significantly cheaper to build it then by all means finish it as was planned but not otherwise.

[SurfRail]

bring on the busway....coorparoo is a future t.o.d hub and the peak patronage along the corridor warrants it.....politically wise....not feasible for pollies to fiddle around with vehicle lanes along such a busy rd....tis the way of aussie politics unfortunately....

Bullsh%t.  Victoria Rd in Sydney is heaps busier than Old Cleveland Rd, just as wide in places (except in Sydney it's 3 lanes and not 2) and is riddled with bus lanes.  It's laziness, nothing more.

couldnt give 2 hoots about whatever place your talking about...i believe its warranted all the way to carindale....obviously CRR is the priority......this is like asking for bus lanes all the way down mains to compton rds.....it just aint going to happen.....infrastructure creates jobs and concrete is cheap...this is the qld pollies line of thought....where have you been?

Thank you for summarising everything wrong with infrastructure planning in Queensland.  Ignorance, parochialism, meeting political and not planning objectives, operating from gut feel and not evidence, assuming concrete is "cheap", focusing on hard assets rather than services.

[The Reaper]

Thank you for summarising everything wrong with infrastructure planning in Queensland.  Ignorance, parochialism, meeting political and not planning objectives, operating from gut feel and not evidence, assuming concrete is "cheap", focusing on hard assets rather than services.

+1

[#Metro]

My understanding is that the Eastern Busway will involve heavy engineering due to the hilly gradients and will also involve extensive road modification and house demolition (lot of demolitions for the Buranda-Langlands Pk leg). The cost is going to be high and it is going to take a while, whatever the option chosen.

[SurfRail]

Whereas converting to 24hr T2 lanes (in 2 lane sections) and bus lanes (in 3 lane sections) would require some paint and signs.  Slightly more for priority signalling.

[techblitz]

as of now...the traffic funneling into ocr thru to carina at the intersections is ridiculous eg:cavendish/wiles to name but a couple......anyone who takes the o/b 222/200 3-5pm will see(which both by the way are load maxing out at these times)......but then again not expecting mapliners/gold coasters to understand.......bus lanes?..i would take this proposal seriously if but for the marginal effect on picking up the speed of the buses....once again....what about the intersections?......this is a future peak traffic issue and a serious one...the vehicles most likely wont decrease....buses need to avoid these intersections any cost....regardless of the cost....with exponential growth around tingalpa reservior/capalaba etc...its needed for the future.......eventually.....CRR first though....

[James]

as of now...the traffic funneling into ocr thru to carina at the intersections is ridiculous eg:cavendish/wiles to name but a couple......anyone who takes the o/b 222/200 3-5pm will see(which both by the way are load maxing out at these times)......but then again not expecting mapliners/gold coasters to understand.......bus lanes?..i would take this proposal seriously if but for the marginal effect on picking up the speed of the buses....once again....what about the intersections?......this is a future peak traffic issue and a serious one...the vehicles most likely wont decrease....buses need to avoid these intersections any cost....regardless of the cost....with exponential growth around tingalpa reservior/capalaba etc...its needed for the future.......eventually.....CRR first though....

Perhaps people should stop being so precious and look to use buses more often, rather than the current Brisbane mentality of only using bus services to go to/from the CBD. Also, bus priority for intersections. It isn't difficult.

The reason why we won't see bus lanes down OCR is because it is politically difficult, and as is indicated by the way the public has reacted in recent times, people nor politicians want to deal with difficult decisions because it will lose them votes and open them up to attacks from lobby groups and the opposition. If we do nothing, at least nobody who isn't angry already won't become angry.

My understanding is that the Eastern Busway will involve heavy engineering due to the hilly gradients and will also involve extensive road modification and house demolition (lot of demolitions for the Buranda-Langlands Pk leg). The cost is going to be high and it is going to take a while, whatever the option chosen.

Perhaps we could elevate the busway down the median on Old Cleveland Road?

[techblitz]

due to future apartment development combined with hilly terrain coming into ocr.....vehicle use will no doubt increase further embedding the road in congestion.....i routinely do the walk up wiles st comin from stanley/ferguson rd...no mean feat...very easy to see why people prefer vehicles for accessing ocr ......t2lanes blah blah are just band-aid solutions.....needs to be nipped in the bud.....i predict in 2 yrs time this rd will be potentially worse than gympie rd......westfield carindale extensions have only added to the problem......that tunnel to old myer @ coorparoo cant come quick enough....the new woolies there is already showing its effect on vehicle traffic at the ocr intersection....

[techblitz]

just note also that stanley rd around camp hill is also at breaking point...vehicle wise....as a member mentioned earlier on in the thread...ocr is really only a peak hour/ shopping day problem....outside those times its relatively smooth running..

My understanding is that the Eastern Busway will involve heavy engineering due to the hilly gradients and will also involve extensive road modification and house demolition (lot of demolitions for the Buranda-Langlands Pk leg). The cost is going to be high and it is going to take a while, whatever the option chosen.

more viable alternatives need to be offered up then......lane/signal fiddling does nothing to address the car loving mentality issues long term......light rail? funneling buses into coorparoo/norman park? what other options?.....if you must argue against jackie/ labor on this already then come up with sensible alternatives instead of just focusing the argument on the money side of things.....they will only come back at you what ive outlined above and most likely ignore it.....james/ LD at least your actually realising that there will be a big political factor in all of this...

The reason why we won't see bus lanes down OCR is because it is politically difficult

precisely why we wont see it for gympie or mains.....they will most likely just keep building infrastructure first....i mean look how they addressed the rd congestion at mains/kessels......i would really like to know how they plan to adress the chermside issue....if ever!

[SurfRail]

As far as I can see you haven't actually refuted anything I've said other than "politics too hard".  It ISN'T too hard - that is why this group exists.

Bus lanes work.  T2 lanes work.  There is ample room for 2/3 lanes the whole length from Langlands Park to wherever you like, which means there is room for bus priority without an orgy of cement and overpasses.  Same for Mains Rd, same for Gympie Rd, same for most of the other radial arterials and a good number of crosstown ones too.

The purpose should be to improve the passenger carrying capacity of roads before resorting to all new corridors at enormous expense (which can't presently be funded anyway).

[hU0N]

I would really like to know how they plan to adress the chermside issue....if ever!

IIRC the plan is to Nundah Village-ise it. Which I actually think is a good idea. Medium density res and a bus station on the west, Westfield on the east, and a pedestrian mall (with the road on the lower level) down the middle.

[hU0N]

My understanding is that the Eastern Busway will involve heavy engineering due to the hilly gradients and will also involve extensive road modification and house demolition (lot of demolitions for the Buranda-Langlands Pk leg). The cost is going to be high and it is going to take a while, whatever the option chosen.

Whereas converting to 24hr T2 lanes (in 2 lane sections) and bus lanes (in 3 lane sections) would require some paint and signs.  Slightly more for priority signalling.

Cheaper yes. But not as good. Bus lanes are like a busway, but without all the bits that matter. I mean headways on a piece of infrastructure are governed by two things. How often you stop and for how long. And without full intersection preemption (which would probably mean boom gates and all for safety), then bus lanes will always involve more and longer stops than a busway.

Saying they are the same thing is like saying that CRR and and the Cleveland Solution, or CRR and BAT are the same thing. It's kind of true in that both have the same outcome in mind, but one does it better than the other. I mean, if the effectiveness of a strategy doesn't matter as long as it has the right outcome in mind, then we should recognise that doing nothing and leaving the buses in mixed traffic also has the same outcome in mind, and is the cheapest option by far.

But when did this group become about advocating for second or third best options simply because they are financially more likely. We didn't do it with BAT. Instead we consistently pointed out that CRR was a much better option, even though it was unfunded and BAT to all intents and purposes was.

[Gazza]

For me, I think heavy duty busways are a poor investment... For the same price you could build a driverless metro, or heck even LRT.
(1.6 Billion for 13km of G:Link, turnkey or 0.5 Billion for 1km of Eastern Busway....Its a No Brainer.

The issue comes down to the very wide/expensive busway stations, wider tunnels, wider viaducts to accommodate the envelope of a bus.

A full on busway is much more expensive than bus lanes, but doesn't have a corresponding increase in benefit IMO.

If we are going to do the eastern Busway, for the time being do the above ground section around Carindale, and the bit in the median at Carina.....Coorparoo could be dug as part of the TOD basement works right?
I suppose the bit to Capalaba around the Sleeman Center is easy too right?
But the other proposed tunnels on the busway are foam.

[Old Northern Road]

My understanding is that the Eastern Busway will involve heavy engineering due to the hilly gradients and will also involve extensive road modification and house demolition (lot of demolitions for the Buranda-Langlands Pk leg). The cost is going to be high and it is going to take a while, whatever the option chosen.

Whereas converting to 24hr T2 lanes (in 2 lane sections) and bus lanes (in 3 lane sections) would require some paint and signs.  Slightly more for priority signalling.

Cheaper yes. But not as good. Bus lanes are like a busway, but without all the bits that matter. I mean headways on a piece of infrastructure are governed by two things. How often you stop and for how long. And without full intersection preemption (which would probably mean boom gates and all for safety), then bus lanes will always involve more and longer stops than a busway.

Saying they are the same thing is like saying that CRR and and the Cleveland Solution, or CRR and BAT are the same thing. It's kind of true in that both have the same outcome in mind, but one does it better than the other. I mean, if the effectiveness of a strategy doesn't matter as long as it has the right outcome in mind, then we should recognise that doing nothing and leaving the buses in mixed traffic also has the same outcome in mind, and is the cheapest option by far.

But when did this group become about advocating for second or third best options simply because they are financially more likely. We didn't do it with BAT. Instead we consistently pointed out that CRR was a much better option, even though it was unfunded and BAT to all intents and purposes was.

So why hasn't any other first world city built fully grade seperated busways like Brisbane has? How does London manage its 2 billion bus trips per annum when it has no busways? Why can't bus lanes work in Brisbane when they work perfectly in cities with far worse traffic congestion like London and Paris?

[James]

just note also that stanley rd around camp hill is also at breaking point...vehicle wise....as a member mentioned earlier on in the thread...ocr is really only a peak hour/ shopping day problem....outside those times its relatively smooth running..

My point is that a BUZ down that corridor would probably assist in taking people off OCR - both in cars and on buses, particularly during the Saturday morning shopping rush when the 210 is hourly (!).

So why hasn't any other first world city built fully grade seperated busways like Brisbane has? How does London manage its 2 billion bus trips per annum when it has no busways? Why can't bus lanes work in Brisbane when they work perfectly in cities with far worse traffic congestion like London and Paris?

Answer:
a) Because Brisbane is run by a council which doesn't believe in trains.
b) Because Brisbane is full of car-driving NIMBYs who haven't caught a bus in years, no thanks in part to the current low-frequency bus network.

If we are going to do the eastern Busway, for the time being do the above ground section around Carindale, and the bit in the median at Carina.....Coorparoo could be dug as part of the TOD basement works right?
I suppose the bit to Capalaba around the Sleeman Center is easy too right?
But the other proposed tunnels on the busway are foam.

The issue is these are not the sections which suffer from congestion, nor would the infrastructure be well used. It is like building the Northern Busway between Chermside and Carseldine because it is easiest to build. Doesn't really solve the pressing problem (which is that buses on OCR are getting stuck in traffic along the Coorparoo/Carina stretch).