RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: #Metro on December 19, 2020, 23:17:21 PM

I'd like to ask the forum how a rail line in the NWTC will connect with the Ferny Grove line.

- Is the preferred connection via Enoggera or Alderly station?

- How will the connection be made given that a parkland, creek and Sparkes hill are all in the way?

IIRC preference has always been for cut and cover tunnels and tunnel under the Kedron Brook to alderley. Tunnel would then continue to the city. Short term I guess they could have portals come out between Alderley/Newmarket to connect to Ferny grove line where there is space to do so. Depending on funding Alderley station would be removed with the tracks sunken between Enoggera-Newmarket to remove the south pine road level crossing with the station reopening at completion of construction. Ferny Grove line would have major lengthy closure to allow for the sinking, tunnel and station reconfiguration works. There's a reason it's very low down on the project list. It's there. But it's not cheap and you need other infrastructure works done first.

My FG line connection would be Skyrail along Kedron Brook, and resume about 15 properties on sicklefield Rd, including the car wash.

Elevated platform at Alderley, drop down to ground level, quad track and crossovers, then eventually a tunnel dive near Newmarket pool

I'm not sure if there's enough room to quad between Alderley and Newmarket pool but I do think the idea is great. Would you have the skyrail from Everton Park to Alderley as double track to begin with but be future proofed to easily build a second bridge and set of tracks down the track?

Quote from: Cazza on December 20, 2020, 15:11:41 PM
I'm not sure if there's enough room to quad between Alderley and Newmarket pool but I do think the idea is great. Would you have the skyrail from Everton Park to Alderley as double track to begin with but be future proofed to easily build a second bridge and set of tracks down the track?

Essentially no need for quad through there?
All trains will need to stop at Alderley, they are done with their express running by that point.

the triple or quad would finish just south of Stafford Rd station.

They would need to run express from Alderley to Bowen Hills though.

 

Quote from: verbatim9 on December 20, 2020, 15:23:51 PM
They would need to run express from Alderley to Bowen Hills though.

Not in the long term..... (and it wouldn't really be possible to do that efficiently anyway)

In the first stage of the project, nwtc trains would be utilising spare capacity on the subs, so there's not really any breathing space in terms of running a mixed stopping pattern thru Windsor, nor is it worth quadding.

You'd have 12tph from NWTC merging with 8tph from FG.

In the long term version, trains would be routed into a tunnel to Victoria Park, so that provides the ultimate speed version and would allow the NWTC to run at 24tph.

Quote from: Gazza on December 20, 2020, 15:04:46 PM
My FG line connection would be Skyrail along Kedron Brook, and resume about 15 properties on sicklefield Rd, including the car wash.

Elevated platform at Alderley, drop down to ground level, quad track and crossovers, then eventually a tunnel dive near Newmarket pool

That's most likely what will happen, if it happens.

ABC News --> North West Transport Corridor plans dusted-off as Brisbane tackles congestion in the suburb

Quote
Key points:

Congestion in Brisbane's north-west is expected to cost the economy $859 million by 2041

Brisbane City Council is preparing a business case relying on an unused state road reserve

Residents want better public transport links to any new roads, which the Government also prefers

Brisbane City Council is finalising a federally funded $10 million business case to submit to Infrastructure Australia on solutions to fend off the north-west's projected gridlock by 2041.


A long-dormant road reserve slicing through Brisbane's congested north-west suburbs could help take the pressure off a clogged transport network facing a commuting boom from Moreton Bay and the Sunshine Coast.

Many of the proposed solutions, released by the council for community feedback in December, rely on a State Government transport corridor set aside in the 1980s.

The North West Transport Corridor stretches for nine kilometres between Everton Park and Carseldine. It was first identified in the 1960s as a potential highway route but has been left almost entirely untouched since then.  ...

... Any final proposals using the corridor will still need to go through the State Government for approval and likely the Federal Government for funding.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Mark Bailey said he wrote to the council and Federal Government in 2020 stating the State Government did not want a road put through the corridor.

"We think the corridor would be better suited as a multi-modal transport corridor that can accommodate rail," Mr Bailey said.

"Developing the North West Transport Corridor as a multi-modal corridor will be a feature of several strategic planning studies due to start later this year." ..."

^ very good article this one.  Have a read.

Good to see all options are on the table. Including busway.

There are two rail options.

Commuter rail, which is the standard QR 2 trains/hr rail, or metro, like Sydney has out to Castle Hill and the northwest.

I think the metro option should be looked at. It will be a case of rapid vs mass transit.

The Ferny Grove line could feed into the new metro at some point, the time saving gained in doing so would allow extension to Samford.

Converting the FG line would free up train paths for the rest of the network, which would flow on to benefit indirectly the Caboolture, North coast and shorncliffe lines.

The fact that major roads are part of the Options just shows that BCC still believes a balanced approach where the status quo on road prioritization continues!! State Govt needs to state "no road on corridor" but we know how much the Transport Minister loves a good freeway so that's not going to happen!! 1960's we will stay!

I think a road of sorts should form part of the proposal.

But it should be a suburban arterial, limited to two lanes in each direction.

This will help complete the road grid in that part of Brisbane.

A multi modal corridor would be the best rail option.

Two tracks for metro would allow more stations.

Two additional tracks, to be added later, could be used for rapid rail services with no or one station in the corridor would allow very fast exit from Brisbane to the SC. You might even be able to dual guage it and remove all freight from the Northern part of the network as well. Wouldn't that be nice?

It is just a matter now of identifying and enumerating all the options.

Quote from: #Metro on February 02, 2021, 06:38:37 AM
Good to see all options are on the table. Including busway.

There are two rail options.

Commuter rail, which is the standard QR 2 trains/hr rail, or metro, like Sydney has out to Castle Hill and the northwest.

I think the metro option should be looked at. It will be a case of rapid vs mass transit.

The Ferny Grove line could feed into the new metro at some point, the time saving gained in doing so would allow extension to Samford.

Converting the FG line would free up train paths for the rest of the network, which would flow on to benefit indirectly the Caboolture, North coast and shorncliffe lines.

CRR connection at Maybe means that the suburbans will be running at just 33% capacity in the am peak. Thus it is most likely that NWTC services would be routed via the Ferny Grove Line into the city.

But the line doesn't have to be built as part of the QR network's

A new line could be built to modern, not legacy, standards.

It could be standard gauge, and driverless.

Over time, it could add and convert the Ferny Grove line.

It would be a true rail metro.

Initially it could feed into the FG line, just as the Sydney metro feeds into the Chatswood line.

But over time, this could extend to Roma Street.

Quote from: #Metro on February 02, 2021, 08:46:20 AM
But the line doesn't have to be built as part of the QR network's

A new line could be built to modern, not legacy, standards.

It could be standard gauge, and driverless.

Over time, it could add and convert the Ferny Grove line.

It would be a true rail metro.

Initially it could feed into the FG line, just as the Sydney metro feeds into the Chatswood line.

But over time, this could extend to Roma Street.

I think you are foaming. It's pretty obvious that the plans are to use the inner FG Line for NWTC, as part of CRR's design. Also a "metro" would prevent North Coast Line services running via NWTC unless it was 4 tracks for the whole length.

A metro would allow us to break away from QRs commuter rail model and the high operating costs of two person trains. It would allow faster rail to make no stops at all once the train departs Roma street and potentially remove freight from the entire northern suburbs rail network.

That would be a win win for Brisbane pax who get mass transit and sunshine coast pax who get rapid transit.

Quote from: #Metro on February 02, 2021, 08:46:20 AM
But the line doesn't have to be built as part of the QR network's

A new line could be built to modern, not legacy, standards.

It could be standard gauge, and driverless.

Over time, it could add and convert the Ferny Grove line.

It would be a true rail metro.

Initially it could feed into the FG line, just as the Sydney metro feeds into the Chatswood line.

But over time, this could extend to Roma Street.

Its wasting the corridor though.
I agree with metro as a mode, but in this case its the wrong choice because it would be an "island" of metro between the Sunshine Coast line to the north, and the rest of the FG line to the south, forcing people to change twice. This double change would offset the frequency advantage, as well as taking away the speed advantage of getting from the sunshine coast on a fast straight line.

Or are you saying the NWTC would be quad, with two tracks metro to Strathpine and two tracks Commuter to the SC?

QuoteMr Bailey said the State Government would soon start a North Brisbane, South Moreton, and Sunshine Coast multi-modal study to inform further long-term planning on individual routes and regions.

Ooooh interesting. Hopefully NWTC with stage 1 of Camcos.

Awesome, Mr Bailey has announced yet another study. I can't wait for the glossy brochure and video fly through.....

Foam cannons activated!!!

Quote from: #Metro on February 02, 2021, 07:54:46 AM
But it should be a suburban arterial, limited to two lanes in each direction.

This will help complete the road grid in that part of Brisbane.

I'm sorry but you have utterly no idea of the area. Ignoring the fact that within 2km west are 2x 2 lane roads. With 1 of them going all the way to Bunnings carseldine where the NWTC joins and where the NWTC meets at Stafford. That's also ignoring the fact bcc have wanted to upgrade Maundrell terrace 1.5km east to 2 lanes in each direction but are facing opposition from locals and Labour Party members. Hmmm. Webster road 2.5km east also is 2 lanes north/south.

Quote from: #Metro on February 02, 2021, 07:54:46 AM
Two additional tracks, to be added later, could be used for rapid rail services with no or one station in the corridor would allow very fast exit from Brisbane to the SC. You might even be able to dual guage it and remove all freight from the Northern part of the network as well. Wouldn't that be nice?

Quote from: #Metro on February 02, 2021, 09:11:02 AM
A metro would allow us to break away from QRs commuter rail model and the high operating costs of two person trains. It would allow faster rail to make no stops at all once the train departs Roma street and potentially remove freight from the entire northern suburbs rail network.

That would be a win win for Brisbane pax who get mass transit and sunshine coast pax who get rapid transit.

Get out of that PFAS foam mate. It's rotting your brain out.  And no a DG in the area will not be nice. If you did run freight that way you are actually slowing freight down due to the Ferny Grove section with those 40kph corners. Imagine a 1km freight train traversing the 40kph curve on the FG line. As it is now freight and out of service trains are quite quick on the existing alignment and times can be improved quite heavily. IIRC Tilts dead running only take 50 mins to get to Landsborough via Mayne. Infact quite a lot of sections on the Petrie-Virginia section of track can have speed upgrades to make it even quicker. Many sections of track south of Caboolture actually had the ICE speed boards removed. Should just bring back the express speed boards but god forbid should an EMU or SMU200 land on its schedule haha. Its been a while since I've checked but IIRC freight are limited to 80kph in the suburban area.

Quote from: #Metro on February 02, 2021, 08:46:20 AM
But the line doesn't have to be built as part of the QR network's

A new line could be built to modern, not legacy, standards.

It could be standard gauge, and driverless.

Over time, it could add and convert the Ferny Grove line.

It would be a true rail metro.

Initially it could feed into the FG line, just as the Sydney metro feeds into the Chatswood line.

But over time, this could extend to Roma Street.

*foam sound effects*

To be brutally honest a metro style busway or rapid transit will struggle in this area. There's simply no major trip generators in the area. All major points of interest are east-west of the corridor. PCH/Chermside Westfield which is the largest employer hubs past RBWH is far far away from the corridor with many people working in the area. The traffic problems in the area are actually created by those living further away. Cashmere. Eatons Hill. Warner. Dayboro. Samford. Joyner. Clear Mountain. All areas that have had a population explosion over the last decade or so. But none moreso than Joyner and Cashmere. A decade ago you'd be lucky to see another car go past. Kremzow Road used to be this tight narrow road exactly like Winn Road and now its this 20m wide road. Old North Road used to be 1 lane in each direction with no shoulder. Its now got 4-6 lanes, bike lanes and shoulders in some sections. These days if someone crashes and closes Old North Road/South Pine road its grid lock all the way back to Stafford/Ashgrove. Roads and rapid city orientated transit are not the answer for the area when you have 2 large employment hubs to the east.

Interesting to see the added options ABC had in their article as compared with the BCC options.

Quote from: timh on December 20, 2020, 07:20:57 AM

Quote from: #Metro on December 19, 2020, 23:17:21 PM

I'd like to ask the forum how a rail line in the NWTC will connect with the Ferny Grove line.

- Is the preferred connection via Enoggera or Alderly station?

- How will the connection be made given that a parkland, creek and Sparkes hill are all in the way?

My idea:

NWTC dives into a tunnel just north of Stafford road.
Rebuild Alderley station as a station in a trench with 4 tracks/platforms. NWTC tracks emerge just outbound of Alderley as the centre track pair.
Sink the line inbound from Alderley and merge the quad into 2 tracks, while leaving room in the corridor to potentially sink the line again later for CRR tunnel.
FG line climbs to regular alignment along the straight bit between Alderley/Newmarket

Resumptions/realignment at Alderley will be necessary, but it would be a benefit to the area overall as you remove the LX at the same time. Resuming the Tire shop and the StorMart are easy options

I'd then rezone and create a TOD at Alderley to allow some value capture.

EDIT: I shouldn't really say my idea as it was Gazza's idea first. I just really like it

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

There is stormwater infrastructure underneath the Ferny Grove Line and South Pine Road around Alderley. Thus it is more likely that the roads would be raised and the railway would be at grade until N of Shand Street. Certainly at least 20 properties would need to be resumed.

The property boundaries allow for the road to be raised as well. I remember seeing plans for one of the complexes near the crossing that indicated this as well.

BCC: North west transport network

> https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-and-transport/roads-infrastructure-and-bikeways/bridges-tunnels-culverts-and-transport-links/north-west-transport-network

Brisbanetimes --> Tunnel plan for Brisbane's northside as congestion, development bites

QuoteA future motorway on Brisbane's northside must go underground after a transport corridor preserved for 40 years was found to have become home to endangered species in bushland flanked by housing estates.

A two-year, $10 million business case has confirmed serious congestion issues in the area between inner Brisbane and the fast-growing Moreton Regional Council area, but concluded that developing the North West Transport Corridor was not the solution.

Instead, the Brisbane City Council research, funded by the Commonwealth and being considered by all three levels of government, recommended several projects, including an underground North West Motorway.

The research found a motorway, connecting Stafford-Kedron to Carseldine-Bald Hills and bypassing the traffic jams around Chermside shopping centre, could carry 109,900 vehicles a day if free, or 61,100 vehicles if tolled, by 2031. It would have interchanges in several north-west suburbs and partly travel under the corridor.

The research proposed a northern extension of the bus rapid transit and Brisbane Metro services that could coincide with the tunnel work, so road capacity is not simply taken up by more cars. And it has flagged the potential to also run a rail line through the tunnel to help share costs and maximise benefits. ...

Did we really expect anything different?

A shared road and rail tunnel is unlikely.

North west transport network

> https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-and-transport/roads-infrastructure-and-bikeways/bridges-tunnels-culverts-and-transport-links/north-west-transport-network

Gotta love that we have kept this transport corridor vacant for so freaking long that the local ecosystem has taken over and now we can't use it as a transport corridor...

ABC News--->North-west Brisbane transport woes could be solved by tunnel, bus network, study shows - ABC News



^^Here is the ABC article

The only way to solve this is to deliver the project as one, thus, building the train and road tunnel as one. Additionally, they should deliver a new active transport corridor as well.

All Day Service frequency on the Kippa-Ring line needs to be boosted to Perth standards.

A lot of the demand is coming from MBRC. That region clearly needs its own CBD, like Parramatta in Sydney.

More trains all day is the cheapest option as no new infrastructure is involved. Pity they didn't consider a non-infra solution.

I don't like the idea of Motorway as the volume of traffic is similar to the Gateway motorway. That's a bypass but this NW Motorway isn't.

If we have to have a Motorway, it should be tolled. That will contain demand and leave money for PT capital works alone.

Busway isn't so great either if demand is originating in MBRC. Is BCC willing to run biarctic buses into MBRC? Doubt it.

Rail is a good option, but heavy rail is expensive. Would be good for the SC though and could be regional rapid rail.

Rapid light rail is also possible, that can run in a tunnel and then on the surface on Kevin Grove Rd to the CBD.

Just some thoughts.

No more motorways!

Does Transurban own every government in this country!

Aside from my obvious frustration it's telling that BCC is pushing the least popular option in community consultation (Motorways) and delaying the most popular (railway). My other big frustration was reading that BCC denies that active or public transport has any impact on congestion.

I reject the whole "we need to build a motorway to free up space on Gympie road" argument.

It's just selling car rapid transit again!

Brisbanetimes --> How sending cars underground would leave more room for Brisbane buses

QuoteGympie Road would support a new Bus Rapid Transit network - with Brisbane Metro vehicles running down the middle like old-school trams - using space freed up by vehicles using the proposed North West Motorway tunnel.

The business case for the motorway, revealed by Brisbane Times on Tuesday, shows it could divert 109,000 cars from roads on Brisbane's north-side by 2031. That would help deliver on a secondary aim of improving public transport services in the suburbs. ...

Part of the two-year North West Transport Corridor study is a new Bus Rapid Transit system along Gympie Road using the space saved by removing cars from the road space. The green lines show the proposed new bus transit lines along Gympie Road, to the east of the proposed multi-billion North West Motorway tunnel.CREDIT:NORTH WEST TRANSPORT CORRIDOR BUSINESS CASE AUGUST 20222

Quote from: AJ Transport on August 09, 2022, 21:30:33 PMNo more motorways!

Does Transurban own every government in this country!

Aside from my obvious frustration it's telling that BCC is pushing the least popular option in community consultation (Motorways) and delaying the most popular (railway). My other big frustration was reading that BCC denies that active or public transport has any impact on congestion.

Yo AJ.  This is the outcome I always expected from this ' business case ' study.  I did have several meetings along the way and pushed rail.  Yes, public support for rail was solid.  This outcome also shafts the notion of fast rail to the Sunshine Coast via NWTC. 

I also have grave doubts about sharing a rail tunnel with road. Have to a be a very large tunnel and not safe in the end.  Be better to have separate road and rail tunnels if that was ever to eventuate.

I have grave doubts if anything will happen, unless they roll over to private funding and set up another toll tunnel with years of payments. The bus stuff is partly true outcome but that should happen regardless of any road tunnel.  It is ' public transport wash ' in the fashion of ' green wash '.

Quote from: Cazza on August 09, 2022, 17:15:34 PMGotta love that we have kept this transport corridor vacant for so freaking long that the local ecosystem has taken over and now we can't use it as a transport corridor...

Yep, the cost of inaction. This could have been sorted many moons ago. 

Brisbanetimes --> Only costly transport options remain for Brisbane's northside, says lord mayor

QuoteBrisbane Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner says the state government's 40-year lack of action to improve transport in Brisbane's north-west suburbs means "only expensive options" remain.

On Tuesday, Brisbane Times revealed the city council had a 257-page business case against the development of a long-preserved transport corridor from Stafford to Aspley. Instead, it recommended a $9.5 billion underground six-lane tunnel between the Airport Link tunnel at Kedron and the Bruce Highway at Bald Hills, plus a suite of bus improvements and underground rail.

While the Queensland government identified Trouts Road from Stafford to Albany Creek as an alternative four-lane freeway 40 years ago, it never acted on the route.

"Because the state government did not take action on this, they missed the opportunity that they might have had decades ago to build that infrastructure," Schrinner said.

"Because of the lack of action until now, a lot of the lower-cost opportunities to invest in infrastructure in the north-west suburbs have disappeared.

"That leaves us with underground options, which are obviously a higher cost, but they have a lower impact on the community."

Transport Minister Mark Bailey on Tuesday evening dismissed council's "feeble plan" - which came after two years of research costing $10 million - and said it offered no solution to congestion problems in the northern suburbs.
 ...

Sent to all outlets:

North west transport network business case farce!

10th August 2022

No surprise that Brisbane City Council has recommended a $9.5 billion six lane road tunnel in the North West Transport Corridor (1).

In developing the business case they have dismissed the fact the majority want rail and active transport improvements, not more congestion inducing toll road tunnels (2).

Attempts to ' public transport wash ' the proposed 6 lane road tunnel business case are in the words of the Transport Minister ' feeble '. There is no way a giant tunnel that could accommodate 6 lanes of traffic and a co-located double rail line could be built and operated safely. Rail access is needed for fast rail to and from the Sunshine Coast. A rail tunnel is realistically the best option.

Gympie road is well capable of supporting bus rapid transit, without the side cost of $9.5 billion for a road tunnel.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

1. North west transport network
https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-and-transport/roads-infrastructure-and-bikeways/bridges-tunnels-culverts-and-transport-links/north-west-transport-network

2. BCC Transport Planning Stuck in Last Century 2nd August 2020  https://railbotforum.org/yourls/1g

" RAIL Back On Track Members note that the residents of north Brisbane "get it" with the vast majority responding to the BCC online survey that better active and public transport is the key, not new roads, despite a Brisbane City Council push to build a new North West Transport Corridor. More than half (56 per cent) of the 1368 residents who responded to the council's online poll on the best way to improve transport in the northwest said they wanted better train and bus services.  Another 12 per cent said bicycle networks needed to be improved with only 26 per cent said roads were the best way to fix the area's transport woes.  The results were even more overwhelming for face-to-face polls, with two-thirds of respondents calling for better public transport and 9 per cent better bike infrastructure. ... "

Facebook ...

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1557063081481498624

The BCC and State Government are both locked in to 1950s urban planning strategies. If we're going to spend 9.5 billion on a tunnel, how about a metro tunnel from Indooroopilly to Northshore, or West End to Chermside? Fkn idiots!!!

Note how councils own projections anticipate rail demand exceeding bus demand in 2041

The problem with meeting travel demand is that it is self-reinforcing. There is no reason to treat car demand and train demand and meet these separately, they are all transport trips and people just care about getting to their destination in the fastest and most convenient way possible.

If the motorway is six lanes in total, and three of these car lanes are CBD-bound, and the other three lanes are suburban-bound then the capacity is somewhere around:

60 minutes/hour x 60 seconds/minute x (1/3 second car spacing) = 1200 pphd per lane x 1.2 load factor = 1440 pphd per lane,

so three times this is 4320 pphd. If we relax the 3 second spacing a bit (assuming we fully max out capacity), so about 2000 pphd, this is:

2000 pphd x 3 lanes = 6000 pphd. <---- THIS IS VERY LOW CAPACITY

A train running every 3 minutes in peak hour would give 1000 passengers x (60 minutes/3 min frequency) = 20000 pphd.

Just building a Regional Rapid Rail (RRR) line would provide so much capacity, it could accomodate ALL motorists on the new motorway AND still have spare capacity in peak hour for PT passengers.

The peak-hour capacity of RRR would be 3x that of the new motorway.

It is also an error to think that trains are slow because they are trains. Trains are slow because of stop spacing and because for some unknown reason, the Queensland Government wants to provide LSR & VLSR (Low Speed & Very Low Speed Rail) service to residents instead of Rapid Transit or similar. E.g. Just look at the end-to-end average speed for the Cleveland Line - 35 km/hr or thereabouts. Why bother??

Trains can do above 100 km/hr to 160 km/hr on QR tracks if the station spacing and infrastructure is designed as such. This is much faster speed wise than cars on the motorway, which are limited to 100 km/hr.

If we lower the travel time and travel costs to live in MBRC and work in BCC areas, then more people will do the logical thing and move to MBRC.

They are also being pushed to live in MBRC because BCC has instituted a low density zoning for most of the city and has also banned townhouse development and missing middle homes. So of course, socially-excluding policies like that means that people follow the cheap land and homes and go into MBRC.

Crucially, MBRC lacks a defined CBD. Ideally it could have two CBDs, one around Kippa-Ring and another one around Westfield North Lakes. Without these, everyone is going to enter BCC for working.