North West Transport Corridor (Trouts Road Corridor)

[timh]

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1334664037913640961

Well that's somewhat positive at least. He didn't say he did support rail, but didn't say that he DIDN'T either, so....

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[kram0]

So could the Minister please outline what his/Labor's plans are for the NWTC or is that too much forward planning for this useless government.?

[ozbob]

It was Labor in 2009 who proposed as part of Western Brisbane Transport Network Strategy the corridor form part of an integrated road and high-frequency public transport connection.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/Western-Brisbane-Transport-Network-Strategy

[BrizCommuter]

There needs to be space for 4 tracks to allow both local services and fast rail to the Sunshine Coast. Anything less would be a disgrace!

[Cazza]

^This. The main reason for the rail line along the corridor is to speed up and provide more capacity for Sunshine Coast Line services. The local Strathpine-Alderley all-stopper should only be a bonus venture.

If anything, Stage 1 could involve 2 tracks Strathpine-Alderley and leave the stations out (except maybe Aspley West and Everton Park). Then, when the tunnel between Alderley and Normanby (via KG Rd) is finished, the other 2 tracks are constructed as well as the other infill stations. Food for thought.

[#Metro]

^This. The main reason for the rail line along the corridor is to speed up and provide more capacity for Sunshine Coast Line services. The local Strathpine-Alderley all-stopper should only be a bonus venture.

If this is the approach, then rail at least initially will have no decongestion benefit for northern Brisbane as trains will simply run express past all the suburbs similar to how gold coast services bypass Brisbane stations.

[verbatim9]

Respondents to the quick poll Your Say

Multi mode is at the top of the ranks 33%

Then Rail at 29 %

A new road only is second last at 16%

[HappyTrainGuy]

FYI Sunshine Coast services via NWTC/Ferny Grove corridor would be slower than the current alignment due to the speed restrictions alderley-Bowen hills. Any speed ups would be as a result of a new alderley-city corridor.

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter: North West Transportation Corridor - 4 Tracks Please!
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2020/12/north-west-transportation-corridor-4.html

[ozbob]

BrizCommuter: North West Transportation Corridor - 4 Tracks Please!
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2020/12/north-west-transportation-corridor-4.html

Thanks Briz.  I have included it in this post.  Also sent to BCC.

Facebook ..

North west transport network business case Brisbane City Council (BCC) has opened Community Consultation on transport...

Posted by RAIL - Back On Track on Sunday, 6 December 2020

[BrizCommuter]

     

[verbatim9]

While I agree that 4 tracks would be the ideal outcome from an operation perspective I think it will likely not happen in the short term. The feedback on the proposal clearly states two tracks. High capacity signalling should be able to manage trains until 2035. With the NWTC corridor in place by 2028-29 together with the mains, there will be 5 tracks running up the northern corridor. Money also has be allocated to other significant mass transit corridors throughout Brisbane as well

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[tazzer9]

Would it be though?  If the trains stopped all stations between Alderley and Bowen Hills then probably yes, but an express train through this section is pretty darn speedy.

[kram0]

4 tracks will not happen, and the rate it's moving, I don't see two tracks for over a decade unfortunately.

[Gazza]

I was looking at Perth out of interest, and equivalent station spacings/distances achieve 10 mins over 12km, so we could expect 10 mins Strathpine to Alderley on an all stops service, and then a further 15 min to Central (25 min)

The current Kippa Ring semi express pattern gets from Strathpine to Central in 37 mins, so there's already a benefit. For them.

For Caboolture and further afield running on the current express pattern, it would be no worse to run via Alderley, but with the long term advantage that the Alderley route offers more options for future time reductions, including quadding, and providing a tunnel.

[BrizCommuter]

While I agree that 4 tracks would be the ideal outcome from an operation perspective I think it will likely not happen in the short term. The feedback on the proposal clearly states two tracks. High capacity signalling should be able to manage trains until 2035. With the NWTC corridor in place by 2028-29 together with the mains, there will be 5 tracks running up the northern corridor. Money also has be allocated to other significant mass transit corridors throughout Brisbane as well

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Yes, the feedback clearly shows 2 tracks, when it needs to be 4 (or at least provision for 4). That's the point of the article!
If the expresses stop at 5 stops less than all stations on this section, then the maximum capacity (even with ETCS) is 6 tph express/6 tph stoppers (12tph max). This capacity can be increased up to 24tph by making the expresses less express, but that defeats the purpose of "Fast Regional Rail". Anyway, the reality is the current government will p%ss fart around on any proposals until the LNP get in power and build a motorway instead.

[Cazza]

The feedback on the proposal clearly states two tracks.

Key word there: proposal. Proposals and ideas change with community feedback, that's the whole point of consultation. 4 tracks really is ideal from the outset.

[#Metro]

How are four tracks going to merge into two when this spur plugs into the Ferny Grove line?

It is very likely only two tracks will be built at least initially and these operated at just 2tph off peak. All for $2.2 billion the rail service will be no better than a bus.

For there to be any benefit whatsoever to residents in the study area (northwest Brisbane) trains would have to operate all stations.

What kind of service will rail provide in the corridor given the history of the Springfield and Kippa Ring lines? Slow & infrequent is my guess.

When cost/benefits are weighed up, the high cost of rail and low benefit due to poor service frequency plus potentially an expensive tunnel to the city (add another ~$2bn) are a big mark against rail.

A busway, while having no benefit to sunshine coast commuters could run a mix of frequent and express services and plug into Enoggera interchange.

[BrizCommuter]

How are four tracks going to merge into two when this spur plugs into the Ferny Grove line?

It is very likely only two tracks will be built at least initially and these operated at just 2tph off peak. All for $2.2 billion the rail service will be no better than a bus.

For there to be any benefit whatsoever to residents in the study area (northwest Brisbane) trains would have to operate all stations.

What kind of service will rail provide in the corridor given the history of the Springfield and Kippa Ring lines? Slow & infrequent is my guess.

When cost/benefits are weighed up, the high cost of rail and low benefit due to poor service frequency plus potentially an expensive tunnel to the city (add another ~$2bn) are a big mark against rail.

A busway, while having no benefit to sunshine coast commuters could run a mix of frequent and express services and plug into Enoggera interchange.

Ultimately two local tracks would join the FG Line, two express tracks would enter the tunnel. Not much point building 4 tracks whilst trains are only routed via the FG Line (which would only be suitable for local services).

[Stillwater]

Looking at the survey, it is aimed at Brisbane city ratepayers. The information and the make-up of the on-line survey does not consider the benefit of the NWTC to communities beyond Brisbane who would use it to access Brisbane City. There needs to be a question or two about SEQ connectivity. Let's hope its strategic important for SEQ is recognised in the Business Case, as that is where the BCR benefits could be shown.

[verbatim9]

Looking at the survey, it is aimed at Brisbane city ratepayers. The information and the make-up of the on-line survey does not consider the benefit of the NWTC to communities beyond Brisbane who would use it to access Brisbane City. There needs to be a question or two about SEQ connectivity. Let's hope its strategic important for SEQ is recognised in the Business Case, as that is where the BCR benefits could be shown.

Anyone who does the survey can add points in the free format section.

[Gazza]

Theoretically that would extend to a road as well, since this will likely be used by people from the Sunshine Coast getting into Brisbane.

However, if a road were to be built, it really would need to be a tollway, packaged with a tunnel connecting with Airport link....A motorway dumping traffic into Everton Park would be silly.

[verbatim9]

That's a very good point re road and a toll. It didn't come to mind when I put in my submission. But I did state that a rail and active transport  corridor needs to be completed prior to any road concept.

[Gazza]

How are four tracks going to merge into two when this spur plugs into the Ferny Grove line?

It is very likely only two tracks will be built at least initially and these operated at just 2tph off peak. All for $2.2 billion the rail service will be no better than a bus.

For there to be any benefit whatsoever to residents in the study area (northwest Brisbane) trains would have to operate all stations.

What kind of service will rail provide in the corridor given the history of the Springfield and Kippa Ring lines? Slow & infrequent is my guess.

When cost/benefits are weighed up, the high cost of rail and low benefit due to poor service frequency plus potentially an expensive tunnel to the city (add another ~$2bn) are a big mark against rail.

A busway, while having no benefit to sunshine coast commuters could run a mix of frequent and express services and plug into Enoggera interchange.

Kippa Ring and Springfield are infrequent, but it's not what I'd call slow, the line speeds on the new sections aren't bad.

Personally, building a busway would be repeating the same mistake as the SE Busway.

It would cost a similar amount to a rail link, but would have none of the intercity benefits.

Fixing frequency in the future is a much easier job than fixing the wrong type of infrastructure.

[timh]

How are four tracks going to merge into two when this spur plugs into the Ferny Grove line?

It is very likely only two tracks will be built at least initially and these operated at just 2tph off peak. All for $2.2 billion the rail service will be no better than a bus.

For there to be any benefit whatsoever to residents in the study area (northwest Brisbane) trains would have to operate all stations.

What kind of service will rail provide in the corridor given the history of the Springfield and Kippa Ring lines? Slow & infrequent is my guess.

When cost/benefits are weighed up, the high cost of rail and low benefit due to poor service frequency plus potentially an expensive tunnel to the city (add another ~$2bn) are a big mark against rail.

A busway, while having no benefit to sunshine coast commuters could run a mix of frequent and express services and plug into Enoggera interchange.

Kippa Ring and Springfield are infrequent, but it's not what I'd call slow, the line speeds on the new sections aren't bad.

Personally, building a busway would be repeating the same mistake as the SE Busway.

It would cost a similar amount to a rail link, but would have none of the intercity benefits.

Fixing frequency in the future is a much easier job than fixing the wrong type of infrastructure.

Yeah, it seems unfair of #Metro to be effectively treating the Kippa-Ring and Springfield lines as failures, when they are some of the best performing lines for patronage on the whole network.

I also don't think 2tph off peak frequency is as big of a problem as it's being made out to be. I have caught both those lines in the off peak and I can hardly say finding a seat was a problem. I understand that providing a better more frequent off peak service may encourage more users, but they'd be ghost trains. That does not however negate the substantial benefit that the pax levels provided by heavy rail can provide in peak compared to a busway on a similar corridor.

I am a big fan of busways, but not for this corridor. NWTC should be for rail

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[BrizCommuter]

How are four tracks going to merge into two when this spur plugs into the Ferny Grove line?

It is very likely only two tracks will be built at least initially and these operated at just 2tph off peak. All for $2.2 billion the rail service will be no better than a bus.

For there to be any benefit whatsoever to residents in the study area (northwest Brisbane) trains would have to operate all stations.

What kind of service will rail provide in the corridor given the history of the Springfield and Kippa Ring lines? Slow & infrequent is my guess.

When cost/benefits are weighed up, the high cost of rail and low benefit due to poor service frequency plus potentially an expensive tunnel to the city (add another ~$2bn) are a big mark against rail.

A busway, while having no benefit to sunshine coast commuters could run a mix of frequent and express services and plug into Enoggera interchange.

Kippa Ring and Springfield are infrequent, but it's not what I'd call slow, the line speeds on the new sections aren't bad.

Personally, building a busway would be repeating the same mistake as the SE Busway.

It would cost a similar amount to a rail link, but would have none of the intercity benefits.

Fixing frequency in the future is a much easier job than fixing the wrong type of infrastructure.

Yeah, it seems unfair of #Metro to be effectively treating the Kippa-Ring and Springfield lines as failures, when they are some of the best performing lines for patronage on the whole network.

I also don't think 2tph off peak frequency is as big of a problem as it's being made out to be. I have caught both those lines in the off peak and I can hardly say finding a seat was a problem. I understand that providing a better more frequent off peak service may encourage more users, but they'd be ghost trains. That does not however negate the substantial benefit that the pax levels provided by heavy rail can provide in peak compared to a busway on a similar corridor.

I am a big fan of busways, but not for this corridor. NWTC should be for rail

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Most trains are still ghost trains thanks to some virus thing. There needs to be 15 minute frequency across most of the CityTrain network to encourage a large modal shift towards train.

[Cazza]

I think a lack of a proper feeder bus network is the thing really holding the rail network back. The "walk up" patronage and coverage of the network is pretty poor (especially compared to Sydney and Melbourne) which is really why bus is king here. It just doesn't really go anywhere near high density corridors (or even highly populated corridors) like buses do down Old Cleveland Rd, Gympie Rd, Logan Rd etc.

With proper feeder buses that run with adequate frequencies, a decent span of hours and actually connect with trains in the first place (timetable and interchange-wise), you unlock whole new population areas to the rail network like the Centenary suburbs, Inala/Forest Lake, Everton Park/Hills/Albany Creek/Bridgeman Downs, Bracken Ridge, literally any in suburb around Springfield or west of Wacol, Acacia Ridge, the list goes on...

That is when 15 min services will be required (or proper TODs are implemented-whichever comes first). At present (pre-COVID patronage levels), you'll be lucky to see more than a handful of people on an Off-Peak FG train.

[verbatim9]

20 mins or better is a good key benchmark to achieve for the SEQ network until 2028. One would get metro like frequencies from Darra to Northgate as well as well as on other inner segments of the rail network. With the right marketing of 20 mins or better 7 days from 7am-9pm people will start going back to trains. Between 9pm-7am except morning peak services and special events, services return to every 30 mins.

Evidence shows that 15 mins or better has failed for the train network. Too many empty running trains. It even got air time with Steve Austin. The general public and journalists are on to it.

P.s. The Buz network easily acheives this from running four buses an hour to 6 buses then to every 5 mins

[red dragin]

You also need additional train crew to run 15 minute schedules

[verbatim9]

What they could do now is relinquish the FG timetable run that at every 20 mins or better and transfer the spare resources to the Springfield Redcliffe line. So two lines every 20 mins or better.

[Gazza]

But FG is a fairly short cycle time so relinquishing resources wouldn't unlock much.

Also, 15 min frequency already exists to Cannon Hill and Coopers Plains too, and the airport line is only 7 trains short of a 15 min service from 8am 6pm.

[verbatim9]

But FG is a fairly short cycle time so relinquishing resources wouldn't unlock much.

Also, 15 min frequency already exists to Cannon Hill and Coopers Plains too, and the airport line is only 7 trains short of a 15 min service from 8am 6pm.

Only 5 days not 7. There is opportunity for a 7 day 20min or better timetable

[#Metro]

Yeah, it seems unfair of #Metro to be effectively treating the Kippa-Ring and Springfield lines as failures, when they are some of the best performing lines for patronage on the whole network.

I also don't think 2tph off peak frequency is as big of a problem as it's being made out to be. I have caught both those lines in the off peak and I can hardly say finding a seat was a problem.

It isn't unfair. That is actually how trains are run in QLD on brand new infrastructure.

Even to high population centres such as Ipswich and the Gold Coast (500 000+ people) it is 2 tph off peak!

Springfield and Kippa-Ring were built as two tracks, we are asking for FOUR tracks AND a tunnel... c.a. $4BN just for 2 tph.

Rail is a high-cost, low benefit proposition for residents in Northwest Brisbane.

Buses would provide a superior service in this corridor and cheaper to construct as the engineering requirements would be less strict than for rail (particularly if the fast rail option is chosen) and the same contractor that builds the road could build busway at the same time.

[MTPCo]

I have compiled a small amount of analysis about how the network may evolve with the NWTC as shown by BCC, which is attached.

A small caveat - I am short of time and have completed this hurriedly, so please feel free to contribute without criticising if you feel something is missing, as I figured it was better to get "something" up in a reasonable amount of time rather than waiting for a perfect edition.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yeah, it seems unfair of #Metro to be effectively treating the Kippa-Ring and Springfield lines as failures, when they are some of the best performing lines for patronage on the whole network.

I also don't think 2tph off peak frequency is as big of a problem as it's being made out to be. I have caught both those lines in the off peak and I can hardly say finding a seat was a problem.

It isn't unfair. That is actually how trains are run in QLD on brand new infrastructure.

Even to high population centres such as Ipswich and the Gold Coast (500 000+ people) it is 2 tph off peak!

Springfield and Kippa-Ring were built as two tracks, we are asking for FOUR tracks AND a tunnel... c.a. $4BN just for 2 tph.

Rail is a high-cost, low benefit proposition for residents in Northwest Brisbane.

Buses would provide a superior service in this corridor and cheaper to construct as the engineering requirements would be less strict than for rail (particularly if the fast rail option is chosen) and the same contractor that builds the road could build busway at the same time.

First you need bus services. There's a reason why the area is heavily car focused. It's also on the BCC border so bus services are quite poor, slow, routes change depending on the time of day/if it's a school term/everything snakes it's way to the city. AFAIK QR/TMR preference has always been for a railway line since the early 2000's and was reenforced when translink took over ticketing too. Busways weren't preferred due to the limited population with local buses feeding into the railway line and connecting to local business hubs.

Would it be though?  If the trains stopped all stations between Alderley and Bowen Hills then probably yes, but an express train through this section is pretty darn speedy.

Quite the opposite. In peak hour express trains just hunt down paths on the Ferny grove line and quite heavily limits the amount of available train paths in both directions. This is also reflected in the different speed limits for all stoppers and express services. This would also impact on the signalling so trains would crawl on restricted signals all the way to the crr spur. A similar issue was affecting the NCL with train frequency unable to be increased northbound in the morning due to the amount of trains crawling along on restricted signals as they awaited petrie starters. An I mean lawnton-Zillmere congestion.

[Cazza]

Rail is a high-cost, low benefit proposition for residents in Northwest Brisbane.

Once again, Northwest Brisbane... as well as the entire Sunshine Coast!

[Gazza]

Buses would provide a superior service in this corridor and cheaper to construct as the engineering requirements would be less strict than for rail (particularly if the fast rail option is chosen) and the same contractor that builds the road could build busway at the same time.

Metro doesnt want regional fast rail after all.

[tazzer9]

But FG is a fairly short cycle time so relinquishing resources wouldn't unlock much.

Also, 15 min frequency already exists to Cannon Hill and Coopers Plains too, and the airport line is only 7 trains short of a 15 min service from 8am 6pm.

Half the problem is the 15 minute services don't extend to much of the lines.  Ferny grove is the only full line with 15 minute off peak services.  Beenleigh line the 15 minute service stops just short of where all the patronage comes from.

If it was extended to most of the network (bounded by caboolture and ipswich) it would increase the overall public opinion of rail and increase ridership. 

[#Metro]

I'd like to ask the forum how a rail line in the NWTC will connect with the Ferny Grove line.

- Is the preferred connection via Enoggera or Alderly station?

- How will the connection be made given that a parkland, creek and Sparkes hill are all in the way?

[timh]

I'd like to ask the forum how a rail line in the NWTC will connect with the Ferny Grove line.

- Is the preferred connection via Enoggera or Alderly station?

- How will the connection be made given that a parkland, creek and Sparkes hill are all in the way?

My idea:

NWTC dives into a tunnel just north of Stafford road.
Rebuild Alderley station as a station in a trench with 4 tracks/platforms. NWTC tracks emerge just outbound of Alderley as the centre track pair.
Sink the line inbound from Alderley and merge the quad into 2 tracks, while leaving room in the corridor to potentially sink the line again later for CRR tunnel.
FG line climbs to regular alignment along the straight bit between Alderley/Newmarket

Resumptions/realignment at Alderley will be necessary, but it would be a benefit to the area overall as you remove the LX at the same time. Resuming the Tire shop and the StorMart are easy options

I'd then rezone and create a TOD at Alderley to allow some value capture.

EDIT: I shouldn't really say my idea as it was Gazza's idea first. I just really like it

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