North West Transport Corridor (Trouts Road Corridor)

[kram0]

Anything less than a Perth style solution of rail and road would be very short sighted.

At the end of the day however, isn't the land and therefore infrastructure controlled ultimately by the state government?

[Jonno]

Anything less than a Perth style solution of rail and road would be very short sighted.

At the end of the day however, isn't the land and therefore infrastructure controlled ultimately by the state government?

Freeway and rail combined is a "we don't want to upset anyone" approach which just prioritises driving and creates a pretty poor urban environment for cyclists and public transport users... plus the freeway only creates more congestion.

[kram0]

Anything less than a Perth style solution of rail and road would be very short sighted.

At the end of the day however, isn't the land and therefore infrastructure controlled ultimately by the state government?

Freeway and rail combined is a "we don't want to upset anyone" approach which just prioritises driving and creates a pretty poor urban environment for cyclists and public transport users... plus the freeway only creates more congestion.

I know what you're saying, but let's be thankful if we get a rail component as I'm sure they don't really want to provide anything other than road only. If the service is good enough, people will leave cars at home.

[verbatim9]

Good encouraging feedback from the Public within that report in regards to Active and Public Transport.

[Cazza]

Out of interest, the Everton Park Link Rd (Everton Park bypass) has started construction.



https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/Everton-Park-Link-Road

[Andrew]

That is a massive waste of money. It is not going to fix congestion at the South Pine Road/Stafford Rd intersection.  The problem there in the afternoons (when I normally go through) is traffic heading west on Stafford Rd turning right to head north on South Pine Rd.  This new road will do squat to fix the problem.  It's an expensive lemon. If they want to fix the intersection, they need to resume some buildings and make it wider.

For the record, they should build a train line up the Trouts Rd corridor instead.  We could do so much more for that area with feeder buses into a reliable rail service.  I would be a fan of a line branching off from the CRR platforms at Roma St and coming out near Everton Park High School.  I envisioned stations at Kelvin Grove, Newmarket Shops & Alderley.  It would beat the pants off any bus in peak hour and literally halve travelling times from places like Bridgeman Downs.  Even joining it to the Ferny Grove line would be a massive improvement.

[Monster]

Agreed. Can't see the realisation of the benefits we keep getting told about. Will just create more bottlenecks around the area. What's the cost $31M? Better ways to fix the intersection if you ask me. Andrew is right, traffic heading North from Stafford Road is as important as North-South Sth Pine Rd traffic.

Plus (and I keep thinking about it every time I see the works) I wonder if this is the "thin edge of the wedge" when it comes to a future roadway along Trouts road (Boooooo!). All the" Well a roadway makes sense because we can link to the existing Everton Link bypass" etc, etc....

Build a rail line, it just makes sense.

[red dragin]

The bypass was in planning when I lived in the area in my teens (90s).
It was shown in the Refidex (book version of google maps for the youngin's  )

[Monster]

Ahh the old Refidex... I suddenly felt about 12yrs old trying to help the old man find a new housing estate in Brisbane that wasn't yet in the book. Early '80's.....

"If it 'aint in the Refidex son, it doesn't exist!" 

Still on sale for the princely sum of $37.95

[red dragin]

Still available? Well, there's the father in law's Christmas present sorted!

[Andrew]

Plus (and I keep thinking about it every time I see the works) I wonder if this is the "thin edge of the wedge" when it comes to a future roadway along Trouts road (Boooooo!). All the" Well a roadway makes sense because we can link to the existing Everton Link bypass" etc, etc....

Build a rail line, it just makes sense.

My fear exactly.

Schrödinger's Bus: Early, on-time and late, simultaneously, until you see it...

[#Metro]

A road is going in... Link road Everton park

[ozbob]

A road is going in... Link road Everton park

Yes, it does use part of the NWTC.  There is still room for rail, though I expect it might be tunnel through there if ever constructed, which seems very unlikely to me.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/-/media/communityandenvironment/Planning-for-the-future/Preserved-transport-corridors/North-west-transport-corridor/north_west_transport_corridor_map.pdf



https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/-/media/Projects/E/Everton-Park-Link-Road/everton-park-link-road-map.pdf

[aldonius]

I mean, getting through Alderley is a lot easier if the rail can stay in tunnel until the northern side of Stafford Rd!

[timh]

I mean, getting through Alderley is a lot easier if the rail can stay in tunnel until the northern side of Stafford Rd!

I've always understood that to be the plan anyway

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[BrizCommuter]

I mean, getting through Alderley is a lot easier if the rail can stay in tunnel until the northern side of Stafford Rd!

I've always understood that to be the plan anyway

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Based in what evidence?

[timh]

I mean, getting through Alderley is a lot easier if the rail can stay in tunnel until the northern side of Stafford Rd!

I've always understood that to be the plan anyway

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Based in what evidence?

It was just an assumption really based on the terrain. Building over/through an ecologically sensitive area like Kedron Brook seemed like something they'd want to avoid. I can't remember if I've seen anything definitive, it just seems like the most obvious choice. I could be wrong though

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[kram0]

It is definitely the smartest and most efficient option Tim for any NWTC solution, which is why the government won't go for it.....

[verbatim9]

Consultation now open for the new North West Corridor

Your Say---> North west transport network - Stage 2 community consultation

[verbatim9]

There are some great plans here for rail and busways, plus new active transport corridors.

I do like the rail proposal and the busway proposal along Gympie road from Kedron. Most likely they will go with the multi mode corridor along the New North West Transport Corridor to appease both Rail and Bus users and drivers of vehicles.

[timh]

Consultation now open for the new North West Corridor

Your Say---> North west transport network - Stage 2 community consultation

The rail plan is particularly notable. @Gazza you called it, BCC would propose to run NWTC services as a spur off the Ferny Grove line in the medium term, with the CRR tunnel connection in the longer term....

Not that BCC would have a say in that, but whatever.

Interesting to see that a tunnel is required. I'm guessing due to the corridor going through a national park/state forest/conservation area.

I've added my thoughts and completed the survey. Is it worth someone going along to one of the community consultations as a "spokesperson"? or just to ask some deeper questions... Considering its just a BCC study and nothing concrete I don't know if anything helpful will actually come from this mind you.

[verbatim9]

It seems that this project will be funded by the Federal Government and Council. So its likely to go ahead quite quickly after the consultation ends. The rail option looks good together with the new bike paths. The new Busway along Gympie road looks good too.

[verbatim9]

The multi mode proposal seems to be similar to that of Darra to Springfield. Road, Rail and shared path. But the Springfield corridor never got the shared path.

[verbatim9]

The Local transport network improvements seems to be all about level crossing removals to improve safety and travel times.

[ozbob]

I had a meeting (zoom) with staff from the Transport Planning and Operations at BCC re NWTN on October 7th last.  It was confidential until this new material was released.

I pushed very hard for rail of course, and followed up the meeting with a number of documents relating to our advocacy for the NWTC over the years.

It has cut through to some degree.  Good outcome.  We need to support rail by giving appropriate feedback.

This was the follow up document I sent to them.

NWTC follow up documents --> https://backontrack.org/docs/bcc/briefRBoTNW.pdf  91KB

[timh]

I had a meeting (zoom) with staff from the Transport Planning and Operations at BCC re NWTN on October 7th last.  It was confidential until this new material was released.

I pushed very hard for rail of course, and followed up the meeting with a number of documents relating to our advocacy for the NWTC over the years.

It has cut through to some degree.  Good outcome.  We need to support rail by giving appropriate feedback.

This was the follow up document I sent to them.

NWTC follow up documents --> https://backontrack.org/docs/bcc/briefRBoTNW.pdf  91KB

Fantastic Bob glad to see your hard work paying off!

Do you know (or are you able to say) what the outcome of this BCC study could actually lead to? I'm skeptical considering I didn't think BCC would have much jurisdiction here...

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[ozbob]

It is a genuine process to try to improve the transport issues in the north west.  The purpose of forwarding those early media releases to them was to show that it is a long standing issue.  The State Government has been on sitting their backsides as usual.  This might lead to something actually happening, particularly if the North Coast Connect also comes down for using the NWTC.

It deserves our support. 

[SurfRail]

Given the track capacity that CRR is meant to enable (assuming done correctly which is clearly a big ask at this point), I'm a bit more in favour of a Strathpine via Windsor route.

You'd have something like 16tph (or better) from Alderley through to the city suburban pair.  Stations inbound of Strathpine at Bridgeman Downs, Aspley, McDowall and Everton Park.  Express tracks on the outer or inner (whichever works better) pair which run non-stop Strathpine to Alderley (underground platforms) and then to Roma Street to cater to Sunshine Coast, Caboolture and potentially Kippa-Ring fast services.

Inbound of Strathpine on the current alignment, that leaves you with only the Kippa-Ring local services which would use the mains.  The third track to Northgate would give you a fair bit of extra capacity for out of service trains, refuging freight etc.

I'd have a terminating platform at Albion for trains to Exhibition from CRR on the western side.  Kippa-Ring services use the main line through the city and feed into the Ipswich/Springfield corridor.  Shorncliffe and Airport slew over to the mains also.  Doomben slots in around the Ferny Grove and Strathpine services on the mains and still terminates at Roma St.  Ferny Grove and Strathpine in an ideal track layout would be split between Cleveland and Flagstone after Park Road, with all existing services from south of Salisbury running via CRR.

The southside is quite stuffed under the current CRR concept but the northside around Mayne and Albion (presumably) would be a lot easier to make this concept work since the work needed is largely in the existing corridor.

[timh]

Given the track capacity that CRR is meant to enable (assuming done correctly which is clearly a big ask at this point), I'm a bit more in favour of a Strathpine via Windsor route.

You'd have something like 16tph (or better) from Alderley through to the city suburban pair.  Stations inbound of Strathpine at Bridgeman Downs, Aspley, McDowall and Everton Park.  Express tracks on the outer or inner (whichever works better) pair which run non-stop Strathpine to Alderley (underground platforms) and then to Roma Street to cater to Sunshine Coast, Caboolture and potentially Kippa-Ring fast services.

Inbound of Strathpine on the current alignment, that leaves you with only the Kippa-Ring local services which would use the mains.  The third track to Northgate would give you a fair bit of extra capacity for out of service trains, refuging freight etc.

I'd have a terminating platform at Albion for trains to Exhibition from CRR on the western side.  Kippa-Ring services use the main line through the city and feed into the Ipswich/Springfield corridor.  Shorncliffe and Airport slew over to the mains also.  Doomben slots in around the Ferny Grove and Strathpine services on the mains and still terminates at Roma St.  Ferny Grove and Strathpine in an ideal track layout would be split between Cleveland and Flagstone after Park Road, with all existing services from south of Salisbury running via CRR.

The southside is quite stuffed under the current CRR concept but the northside around Mayne and Albion (presumably) would be a lot easier to make this concept work since the work needed is largely in the existing corridor.

Freeing up capacity on the Strathpine-Albion section does offer a lot of new opportunities. You'd have the third track to run things like you said (freight, out of service, etc.) but you would also be able to use it for Gympielander, tilts, and also potentially peak express Kippa Ring services.

I think in the medium term having NWTC coming off the Ferny Grove line isn't a bad idea, especially considering as MTPCo has outlined, there will be tons of spare capacity on the Ferny Grove line under the current CRR plans. I think the problem that many detractors have pointed out with this plan is that the actual time it takes trains to come from the Sunshine Coast via this alignment doesn't actually save a lot of time. But if it was an interim phase, I could live with that.

[Fares_Fair]

It is a genuine process to try to improve the transport issues in the north west.  The purpose of forwarding those early media releases to them was to show that it is a long standing issue.  The State Government has been on sitting their backsides as usual.  This might lead to something actually happening, particularly if the North Coast Connect also comes down for using the NWTC.

It deserves our support.

Concur.

The FastRail business case options to be progressed both use the NWTC.
One above ground.
The second option is via a NWTC tunnel.

I can't say how I know this. 

[Gazza]

Given the track capacity that CRR is meant to enable (assuming done correctly which is clearly a big ask at this point), I'm a bit more in favour of a Strathpine via Windsor route.

You'd have something like 16tph (or better) from Alderley through to the city suburban pair.  Stations inbound of Strathpine at Bridgeman Downs, Aspley, McDowall and Everton Park.  Express tracks on the outer or inner (whichever works better) pair which run non-stop Strathpine to Alderley (underground platforms) and then to Roma Street to cater to Sunshine Coast, Caboolture and potentially Kippa-Ring fast services.

Inbound of Strathpine on the current alignment, that leaves you with only the Kippa-Ring local services which would use the mains.  The third track to Northgate would give you a fair bit of extra capacity for out of service trains, refuging freight etc.

I'd have a terminating platform at Albion for trains to Exhibition from CRR on the western side.  Kippa-Ring services use the main line through the city and feed into the Ipswich/Springfield corridor.  Shorncliffe and Airport slew over to the mains also.  Doomben slots in around the Ferny Grove and Strathpine services on the mains and still terminates at Roma St.  Ferny Grove and Strathpine in an ideal track layout would be split between Cleveland and Flagstone after Park Road, with all existing services from south of Salisbury running via CRR.

The southside is quite stuffed under the current CRR concept but the northside around Mayne and Albion (presumably) would be a lot easier to make this concept work since the work needed is largely in the existing corridor.

Freeing up capacity on the Strathpine-Albion section does offer a lot of new opportunities. You'd have the third track to run things like you said (freight, out of service, etc.) but you would also be able to use it for Gympielander, tilts, and also potentially peak express Kippa Ring services.

I think in the medium term having NWTC coming off the Ferny Grove line isn't a bad idea, especially considering as MTPCo has outlined, there will be tons of spare capacity on the Ferny Grove line under the current CRR plans. I think the problem that many detractors have pointed out with this plan is that the actual time it takes trains to come from the Sunshine Coast via this alignment doesn't actually save a lot of time. But if it was an interim phase, I could live with that.

Yes, in the interim  you could have trains merging at Alderley (I would sink the whole station below LX level which would allow for the junctions too below ground level)
In the interim you could share capacity with the FG line, and eventually build a tunnel from Alderley to wherever, based on fast rail needs.

[aldonius]

The Trouts Rd corridor remains tricky.

In the not-so-long-term we should expect 24tph of capacity needed from north of Petrie, enough to saturate a track pair. All of this should ideally go via the Trouts/tunnel combo (surface Strathpine-Alderley, tunnel Alderley-city) to unlock some proper speed.

The local community will surely demand stations at South Pine Rd, Rode Rd, Albany Creek Rd and perhaps Roghan Rd. But that's too many mid-ring suburban stations for express routes coming from north of Petrie. Further, the tunnel from Alderley isn't happening any time soon and via-Windsor is slower than via-Northgate. That's OK for all-stoppers from Strathpine via Everton Park but again, no good for expresses.

So I think the way to do it, assuming expresses via Trouts are to happen at all, is to build the local line first, baking in provisions for the express line.

The roads lobby at this point would probably proffer an alternative - BRT along the Trouts corridor and (as shown in a number of the concepts) a motorway tunnel under Stafford Rd.

[verbatim9]

^^Feedback thread---> Multi mode?

[Gazza]

Probably worth pointing out you'd want to build CAMCOS to build up passenger numbers to justify a fast line.

[timh]

Probably worth pointing out you'd want to build CAMCOS to build up passenger numbers to justify a fast line.

Absolutely. CAMCOS and NWTC should be considered part of the same project imo (NW suburbs local services aside)

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[Fares_Fair]

Absolutely. CAMCOS and NWTC should be considered part of the same project imo (NW suburbs local services aside)

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NWTC and the NCL should be considered the one project too, IMO for dual benefits to FREIGHT and passengers (NW suburbs local services aside)

[ozbob]

From https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3664.0

I went out to the corridor today to have a look.  Wide corridor, double track would fit comfortably ..

Some photographs around Everton Park  Flockston St










EMU01 on a Ferny Grove Service at Gaythorne





Photographs R Dow 9th April 2010

From the North West News 14th April 2010 pages 1 and 3

On track





Thanks for the interest North West News!

^ I was a young fella then ... 

[ozbob]

In Queensland --> Council ponders new north west motorway for Brisbane as congestion costs soar

" ... Brisbane City Council confirmed its business case for ways to ease congestion between Bald Hills and Toowong will include consideration of a new motorway or high-speed arterial road along a long-preserved corridor running from Stafford to Carseldine.

Other possible solutions the business case will examine include additional public transport capacity, new or extended busways and widening existing roads. ... "



====

https://twitter.com/Johnsmccarthy/status/1334371456667377664

[Cazza]

https://imgur.com/gallery/sCvRIEd

If this doesn't change their mindset about the true inefficiencies about roads, then I seriously don't know what will.

A road corridor (even a road + rail corridor) will be absolutely disastrous. There are already 4 main north-south road corridors for the north-west including Old Northern, Appleby, Webster and Gympie Roads, a total of 16 lanes across them (give or take- 4 for ONR, 2 for AR, 4 for WR and 6 for GR). If that is already struggling to provide enough capacity, then I don't know how we can show them adding more lanes isn't a solution. Maybe this:

The capacity of a single rail line is approximately 30,000 people/hour (1 train of 1,000 capacity running every 2 mins).
The capacity of a standard lane is approximately 1,500 cars/hour (taking into account traffic lights etc.).
Now, say the average car capacity is 5 (do remember the average occupancy rate for cars in Queensland is between 1.2-1.5). So theoretically (if every seat in the car was taken) a road lane would have a capacity of 7,500 people/hour.

So that means 4 northbound (for example) traffic lanes would have to be built to have the same capacity as a single northbound rail track.

It is paramount that the NWTC is Public and Active Transport only. The first stage should be double track from Strathpine to Alderley. Then the next stage should be (once they get their sh!t together with RRR) they make it quad Strathpine to Alderley to meet the tunnel under Enoggera/KG Rds to connect with CRR at Normanby. This second stage should be built that the quadding of the NWTC is finished at the same time as the tunnel, allowing express trains to start using it straight away.

Congestion is already costing Queensland over $3bn a year in lost productivity and road maintenance but there are so many more hidden costs including increased stress of traffic, road trauma etc. that just cannot be accounted for. We cannot keep becoming a car dominated society. Something has to change. And this has to be the first step towards this change.

Council needs to show that they are true to their word in becoming a "new world city", not just have this pretty little tag line that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Because if this roadway gets approved, we will be thrown straight back into the 1960s all over again.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1334664037913640961