RAIL - Back On Track Forum

There is only one issue that I can think of regarding the 412 is that it becomes caught up in traffic along Coronation Drive.  Resulting in buses being cancelled and increasing wait times for the service.

They need to complete the trans apex plan to divert traffic off Coronation drive and  Milton road.

Also TMR/Translink need to extend the busway (mass transit corridor) from UQ lakes through to Indooroopilly. This will provide many more Public transport options and provide quick and efficient cross town trips.

I suspect there may be capacity requirements at some depots which limit the ability to garage artics or tag axle buses.  Virginia definitely has problems with layout and size.  Unless those are resolved there would be not inconsiderable dead running issues to resolve in allocating higher capacity buses to some routes from where they have to actually keep the things.

Quote from: verbatim9 on November 01, 2021, 14:46:39 PManecdotal evidence; international students

TransLink releases monthly aggregates of go card origin-destination data. For buses, it's further broken down by route and direction. I've analysed this data, as you may recall.

Taking a look at the inbound 412 in March 2019 (to address your international-student concerns), there were 115,372 trips. 36,158 of those were specifically from UQ to Toowong (there were 71K total boardings at UQ and 13K UQ to Ann St trips). My point is further bolstered by a stop-by-stop total of boardings and alightings: the average loading of the bus between Toowong and the city is about HALF of that between UQ and Toowong.

I'll say that again: patronage on the 412 between Toowong and the city is about HALF of that between UQ and Toowong.

And that is why I support retaining the 402 and potentially rocketising it.

(Admittedly, things are a bit less unbalanced post-COVID, and the total patronage numbers are down quite a bit overall. But if you expect things to come roaring back... that's the travel pattern to expect.)

I wouldn't run the 402 express- it just means that some people will specifically wait for the 402 and create uneven loadings between the 2 routes. Plus, the amount of demand generated between stops east of Toowong to UQ is very high in itself- no need to make the corridor more complex than it needs to. The 402 stops along FSD were removed to simplify operations, it doesn't seem smart to unnecessarily complicate them again.

The set up I described above is already in operation at Monash University in Melbourne and has been so for almost a decade. Give it a go and see what happens. You can always change it back easily after 12 months if you want to.

Under this concept, 402 would pick up at UQ, run to SFD shops and then terminate at Toowong Benson St. This would create a much better connection to rail.

Cazza, it may surprise you, but historically pre-2006 Green Bridge BCC ran a rocket bus Route 407 that picked up in the CBD Adelaide St and then non-stop to UQ Chancellors Place over the same route as 412. It zoomed past every single stop, even Toowong.

This 402 rocket bus is a more modest bus proposal than the good old UQ Rocket 407 ex-Adelaide street.

But the 601 is the standout and preferred singular route for running between Monash and Huntingdale Station that people should and do catch. Other routes that may run between the two are just there because they are there and PTV should discourage people from using them as a shuttle.

In UQ's scenario, there are two routes doing the same job- they should run the same way so there is no advantage or disadvantage of catching one over the other. If you try to get one to be better than the other, then people will gravitate towards this route due to the 1-2 min travel advantage at the very most (yes, we are talking about a 1-2 minute time saving here). It just completely over complicates the corridor for what it's worth and doesn't really provide any sort of service improvements. Route 412s will be leaving Toowong with people still waiting for a 402 and those wanting to head to UQ from FSD are standing there watching 402s run past half full, even though a 30 second stop is more than doable, as has been the case for years.

Quote from: #Metro on November 01, 2021, 18:51:22 PM
Cazza, it may surprise you, but historically pre-2006 Green Bridge BCC ran a rocket bus Route 407 that picked up in the CBD Adelaide St and then non-stop to UQ Chancellors Place over the same route as 412. It zoomed past every single stop, even Toowong.

This was because Route 66 or 109 weren't a thing, so yes, any sort of northside UQ journeys that involved a CBD transfer would be easily catered by the 407. This was the fastest (and really only) way to access UQ from the north (I don't know enough about if any buses connected to the previous cross-river ferry but it would seem that this would be faster than coming via Coro Dr).

Now that the 66 is around, most CBD commuters for UQ use it rather than the 412 because it is much faster and significantly more reliable. Considering BCC love a good fireworks display by shooting rockets to every corner of every suburb, I'm actually more surprised it's still not around, rather than being surprised it existed in the first place

Look, I understand that your view is that 402 should be just like 412 except shorter and ending at Toowong. That's cool.

I'm simply agreeing with Aldonius here that a large proportion of 412 pax only want to go from UQ to Toowong and then leave the service. And if that is the case rocketising it has reasonable merit. There have been bolder rockets to UQ on this corridor in the past (407).

Rocketising 402 would also probably mean no need to remodel Chancellors place for superbuses and the like as the passenger load would be nicely apportioned between 412 and 402.

QuoteNow that the 66 is around, most CBD commuters for UQ use it rather than the 412 because it is much faster and significantly more reliable.

This is a nice theory and a good point but we have the benefit of the data for before and after the Schonell Bridge opening. Really interesting stuff - there was no change to patronage on the 412 service at all. Trips over the Schonell bridge are almost all entirely new trips.

The main conclusion here is that a 402 Rocket to Toowong is worthy of further investigation.

Quote from: AnonymouslyBad on October 29, 2021, 09:22:03 AM
I still have some hope they'll use "Brisbane Metro" as a catalyst for a proper review of the 1xx region. There's allegedly planning already underway, which suggests it must be more extensive than just a rebrand of the 111 and 66.
I suspect BCC's standard reluctance to invest any political capital will 'protect' (ha) the core BUZ network but the days of suburban milk runs going into the CBD will be over.

The 66 corridor I can't see anything really changing, they won't change the northside at the same time and the network is so radial that there's not much point otherwise.

Although do remember that the Northern "Transitway" (I could think of many other adjectives to describe it but I'll leave it at that for now) is expected to open early 2023 so we could see some sort of changes and improvements to Chermside services.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/northern-transitway

QuoteNorthern Transitway is now under construction and is expected to be completed by early 2023, weather and construction conditions permitting.

The detailed service planning of the bus network will continue to be refined. This includes final route alignments and stopping patterns to ensure that we can best service the passengers who utilise these services while still ensuring that we are able to gain the significant benefits to be realised by the Northern Transitway.

Although I'm definitely not putting my house on it given Banana Land's track record for anything bus network related.

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1457988004480487429

Quote from: verbatim9 on November 09, 2021, 18:49:02 PM
https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1457988004480487429

What kind of underground busway builds did we have in the 80s for this to be bigger than?

^ Queen Street platforms and the access to them.

Up until the busway was built through to Roma Street, there was a ramp to/from Adelaide St, where the Adelaide-Queen Street mall stretch of Albert Street is now.

Abc news---> Brisbane Metro construction moves into Adelaide Street for next two years

Looks like the test vehicle is still on track for this year.

King George Square car park should be converted into bike parking, servicing and change facilities.  A CBD car park belongs in 1960!

Here is a question for the group.  When CRR and Metro are finished.  Should QSBS be decommissioned so we just have "in-line" stations (including the concept of the CBD super stops from the 2013 bus network re-design).  I personally find the whole station souless, ugly and a tad scary.     

They should at least close the Adelaide St entrance to the carpark.

Quote from: Jonno on February 16, 2022, 11:54:09 AM
King George Square car park should be converted into bike parking, servicing and change facilities.

There are already end trip facilities on B1 of King George Sq station. Do you believe there should be more bicycle parking in the area?

The new Suncorp HQ on Ann also has new dedicated cycling end trip facilities near the entry.

Quote from: Jonno on February 16, 2022, 11:54:09 AM
Here is a question for the group.  When CRR and Metro are finished.  Should QSBS be decommissioned so we just have "in-line" stations (including the concept of the CBD super stops from the 2013 bus network re-design).  I personally find the whole station souless, ugly and a tad scary.     

Absolutely not. QSBS is hugely popular and serves an enormous number of routes. If you moved all of those routes to KGS, KGS would become absolutely overcrowded, it just doesn't have the capacity.

Sent from my SM-G780F using Tapatalk

Quote from: verbatim9 on February 16, 2022, 12:46:41 PM

Quote from: Jonno on February 16, 2022, 11:54:09 AM
King George Square car park should be converted into bike parking, servicing and change facilities.

There are already end trip facilities on B1 of King George Sq station. Do you believe there should be more bicycle parking in the area?

The new Suncorp HQ on Ann also has new dedicated cycling end trip facilities near the entry.

Both more bike parking and less car parking.  Just encourages people to drive for trips that most likely can be by bike or public transport...even foot.

Quote from: timh on February 16, 2022, 12:50:57 PM

Quote from: Jonno on February 16, 2022, 11:54:09 AMHere is a question for the group.  When CRR and Metro are finished.  Should QSBS be decommissioned so we just have "in-line" stations (including the concept of the CBD super stops from the 2013 bus network re-design).  I personally find the whole station souless, ugly and a tad scary.     

Absolutely not. QSBS is hugely popular and serves an enormous number of routes. If you moved all of those routes to KGS, KGS would become absolutely overcrowded, it just doesn't have the capacity.

Sent from my SM-G780F using Tapatalk

Like most of Brisbane CBD it is a mishmash of stops and CBD commute centric routes that I think adds significantly to the "public transport is too hard to work out".  Will have to wait to see what routes change with Metro to understand what mess is left to sort out.   

Even with Metro there will still be plenty of BUZ and Rockets that continue to terminate in the CBD, so there is still a major need for the QSBS into the future. Metro might replace enough routes to provide a opportunity to rationalise the stops to lessen the confusion, but it won't replace enough to remove the need for the station.

Brisbane Times--->Brisbane's convict past unearthed during busway excavations

QuoteA convict-era bounty has been unearthed beneath Adelaide Street, in one of Brisbane's most significant historical finds.
The team working on the Brisbane Metro busway project has discovered a convict-era hospital, as well as the stairs, walls and foundations of an early penal colony building, plus bottles and coins from the early 19th century.

Interesting find. I wonder how they will preserve the larger of the structures? Relocate it or integrate it as a tunnel feature, similarly to the historic feature found at King George Sq station

Brisbane City Council announces proposed Bne Metro route along the old tram corridor on Old Cleveland Road

Quote from: verbatim9 on April 01, 2022, 12:28:37 PMBrisbane City Council announces proposed Bne Metro route along the old tram corridor on Old Cleveland Road

Well played!!

Quote from: verbatim9 on April 01, 2022, 12:28:37 PMBrisbane City Council announces proposed Bne Metro route along the old tram corridor on Old Cleveland Road

Completely fell for that for a good minute, nice one

https://twitter.com/bne_lordmayor/status/1516972652472467456

https://twitter.com/bne_lordmayor/status/1516972673955676160

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1516975422076239872

https://twitter.com/ljstone09/status/1516946390290944000

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1516975739912208385

Thank god they got rid of that driver's cab. Yet another reason that it is in fact a bus and not a Metro. Slowly but surely they are wearing down, but still yet to admit that it is a bus

Hopefully it will be renamed to Brisbane's BRT or something similar so we can get a true underground Metro line.

Either way, looks great and will be keen to see it in action.

Quote from: Cazza on April 21, 2022, 13:14:00 PMThank god they got rid of that driver's cab. Yet another reason that it is in fact a bus and not a Metro. Slowly but surely they are wearing down, but still yet to admit that it is a bus

Hopefully it will be renamed to Brisbane's BRT or something similar so we can get a true underground Metro line.

Either way, looks great and will be keen to see it in action.

or T1 and T2 ... for now - https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14588.0

https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-and-transport/public-transport/brisbane-metro/the-metro#pilot-testing

Pilot metro testing

The pilot metro has arrived in Brisbane for testing in local operating conditions throughout 2022 and into 2023. The metro and its charging system are the first of their kind in Australia and because of this there are testing and commissioning activities that need to be completed.

Testing of the pilot metro will occur across Greater Brisbane at different locations to ensure it meets all required technical specifications and Council requirements. This includes testing and commissioning the pilot metro charging point, at the Countess Street layover, in the existing busway corridor at Petrie Terrace.

The pilot metro will not be in passenger service. Please do not attempt to board the pilot metro. You will see people travelling on the pilot metro, including technical engineers, project team members and key stakeholders who are required for testing.

Following the successful trial of the pilot metro, Council will have the option to purchase 59 additional metros, with services expected to commence in late 2024, subject to approvals.

Or really show up Sydney and have the true B1 (and B2). These "Metros" are bananas afterall, rather than their B1 double deckers

I assume they can only fit 3 into King George Sq Station in each direction at anyone time.

Interesting that they are testing them on the Freeways as well.

In one of the Twitter promo pics there is a glimpse of the PID in the background and it seems to be the same as the ones installed on the new city loop eBuses.

Any photos? Also, I write BRT-metro to make sure the fact that they are buses. 

Maybe we can call them Metrobuses.

EDIT: ABC has a link https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-21/brisbane-metro-electric-pilot-vehicle-arrives-for-testing/101005326

Anticlimax - It's a BUS!!

Comments there about how 2/3 of the network will still be done by regular buses so BCC is unlikely to change the bus network structure significantly.

Then a lot of shadow for Light Rail projects.... C-train light rail can do 900 pax x 30 = 27,000 pphd and very cost effective both in terms of operational per passenger costs, cheaper than rail-metro and forces bus networks to restructure around it which reduces bus operation costs as well (positive spillover effect).

The thing is, BCC was once a very experienced and competent TRAM operator. Thanks to former Lord Mayor Clem Jones it did a full 180 and now resists them.

Hopefully we can see this run on surface roads as well as on the busway.

I've been pretty anti - metrobus because clearly it would be better to upgrade the busway to rail (I'd love a medium capacity automated transit akin to Vancouver skytrain) but now we're here and have to make do with metrobus. I'm keen to see these electric bi-articulated buses on the road, hopefully they can be used on the soon to be completed northern transitway to Chermside to turn that into a more frequent high capacity corridor.

Despite BCC et al wishing the Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit network be ' Brisbane Metro ' with ' Metro ' vehicles it is not really a metro in the accepted sense, nor are the electric metros anything other than electric bi-articulated buses.

The bi-artics will be an improvement, and hopefully some long overdue bus network reform will be achieved.

Sent to all outlets:

Brisbane ' Metro'  Pilot electric bi-articulated bus is here!

22nd April 2022

RAIL Back On Track supports the improvement of the Brisbane bus network.  The move to electric bi-articulated buses on the core busway routes will allow for proper long overdue Brisbane bus network reform, and is welcomed and strongly supported.

The 'Brisbane Metro' is not what is generally accepted to be a true metro system, which is a heavy railway with exclusive rights of way.  The Brisbane Metro is in fact a Bus Rapid Transit system.  The so called ' metro vehicles ' are electric bi-articulated (bi-artic) buses (double-articulated buses).  This is the first time bi-articulated buses will be used in Australia, although bi-articulated buses are in service globally in around 14 countries at present.

The Lord Mayor has made a point of mentioning the wide tinted panoramic windows on the bi-articulated buses. We do hope that advertising wraps are not applied over the windows!  Windows on public transport vehicles are to provide vision into and out of the vehicles, they should NOT be used as a platform for advertising wraps.

Reference:

BCC: The metro

https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic-and-transport/public-transport/brisbane-metro/the-metro#pilot-testing

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

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