Brisbane: Bus Electric Rapid Transit (' Brisbane Metro ')

[verbatim9]

Leaked documents have revealed that the cost of the Brisbane Metro project is running over by millions of dollars, but the LNP council won't disclose exactly how much. @TimArvier9 #9News https://t.co/H4ABTRynxU

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1438058936490463233

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Money the Federal Government can't give away $

In an extraordinary move, the federal government is demanding $65 million in cash be passed on to two major job-creating projects, for public transport and rural health, after talks with the state stalled.

There is $50 million in cash for the Brisbane Metro and $15 million for the Royal Flying Doctors Service Townsville base that need to go out the door.

It would be unprecedented if the cash is not passed on, as well as in breach of national partnership agreements between the state and federal governments.

The Commonwealth is unable to pay the Brisbane City Council or RFDS directly, under the constitution. But the Courier-Mail understands the federal government is claiming it has been stonewalled at an officials level.

It is understood payments for the Metro have been attempted to be pushed through since June, while the RFDS has been since July.

...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1438509280647213068

[verbatim9]

Construction begins on Brisbane Metro project in the CBD | 7NEWS
20th September 2021

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Brisbane Metro: GST argument may see Palaszczuk Government return federal cash $

A stoush over GST and funding has escalated as the Palaszczuk Government threatens to send back any cash it receives for a major Brisbane transport project that was spruiked as part of the Olympics bid.

The Morrison Government is warning it will be "deeply concerning" if Queensland refuses to pass on the $50 million for the Brisbane Metro project and another $15 million for Townsville's Royal Flying Doctor Service base, in what would be an unprecedented move.

The cash is expected to land in the state's bank account on Thursday, with a letter preceding it sent the previous day demanding it be passed on as usual.

But State Treasurer Cameron Dick said Queensland will lose money "for health and education" if it accepts the money for the Metro without a special GST carve out.

It is part of the stand-off between the State and Federal governments over these projects and the southeast Queensland city deal, with the state claiming it will lose money through complex GST allocation formulas. ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1446609911715012612

[#Metro]

The GST allocation formulas are extraordinarily complex and fraught with danger.

Under the Constitution, states and territories must be treated equitably. There is an entire commission set up to determine what is a "fair" allocation.

https://www.cgc.gov.au/

[verbatim9]

It promises to be the most advanced transport depot in the country, capable of recharging a 24-metre vehicle in less than six minutes. 7NEWS has an exclusive sneak peek as work begins on Brisbane Metro's new Rochedale transport hub. An exclusive sneak peek at Rochedale's Metro transport hub | 7NEWS @ElliottChipper #7NEWS https://t.co/NdONlX2qcW

[verbatim9]

^^The Lord Mayor is describing Brisbane Metro vehicles as trackless trams.

[#Metro]

I have some concerns.

1. Why is BCC constructing this project - isn't this TMR's job to build and fund? Busways are state infrastructures
2. Will BCC exclude other operators from the busway tunnels or upgraded infrastructure? e.g. Logan buses
3. What is going to happen with Logan commuters if they get their own metro vehicle someday and want to drive that into the CBD or use the same stops
4. Will it be a problem if the bus network is designed such that Logan commuters jump on BCC metro buses at Eight Mile Plains?

[Cazza]

1. Why is BCC constructing this project - isn't this TMR's job to build and fund? Busways are state infrastructures

This seems to be a though bubble someone at BCC had had one day awfully close to an election (you know, the stupid convert the busway the metro so no buses could use it anymore one) and it has just evolved into what we have today: the Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit Projec... sorry Brisbane Metro. BCC seem to do what they want with PT and push it to the State Government to approve/fund. If State says no, BCC go at them for being anti-PT, discussions are had, BCC get their way. If the State says yes, BCC get their way. It's a win-win situation for them. Look at the Maroon/Gold Gliders. Council flagship idea, little State involvement or planning, but hey here we are (I god hope the Gold Glider doesn't become a thing- we are in serious trouble if it does...)

2. Will BCC exclude other operators from the busway tunnels or upgraded infrastructure? e.g. Logan buses

No. It's still State infrastructure. I know BCC have this ban on other operators using QSBS but there are some serious capacity issues that need resolving first before any more buses use the tunnel. And by that I mean bus network overhaul!

3. What is going to happen with Logan commuters if they get their own metro vehicle someday and want to drive that into the CBD or use the same stops

I'll assume you're asking that what if Clark's Logan get their own big boy bus? If Clark's did want a Metro bus for some weird reason, they are well within their rights to buy one and operate it. As I said, the busways are State assets, but I'm not sure how much if BCC would let them use KGS or QSBS. Maybe if there is more capacity they might let them. But once the Metro is extended to Springwood, I really don't see the need for any Logan services to travel into the CBD (maybe a peak hour express route from Logan Hyperdome into Margaret St via Slacks Creek P'n'R and Springwood?). Clark's would be much better off running feeder buses to Garden City, Springwood, Logan Hyperdome and Loganlea Stations, from both an operational and commuter perspective.

4. Will it be a problem if the bus network is designed such that Logan commuters jump on BCC metro buses at Eight Mile Plains?

As above, the logical northern terminus points would be Garden City and Springwood. No point terminating routes in the middle of no where, just one stop away from such a key destination and interchange hub.

[#Metro]

Clark's would be much better off running feeder buses to Garden City, Springwood, Logan Hyperdome and Loganlea Stations, from both an operational and commuter perspective.

Yes, but won't BCC get snappy if Clarks set down mass volumes of passengers that fill BCC buses and then BCC has to pay to move them.

I am starting to thinkg a better option would be to convert the busway to Skytrain, similar to Vancouver, and have that extend from the CBD to Beenleigh instead. It would bypass much of the territorialism, be driverless, high frequency, very cheap to run.

[Cazza]

Clark's would be much better off running feeder buses to Garden City, Springwood, Logan Hyperdome and Loganlea Stations, from both an operational and commuter perspective.

Yes, but won't BCC get snappy if Clarks set down mass volumes of passengers that fill BCC buses and then BCC has to pay to move them.

I'd think the opposite- allows BCC to show off how much of a success it will be (I hope it's successful anyway- it all just depends on how BCC structure their network around it).

[ozbob]

^^The Lord Mayor is describing Brisbane Metro vehicles as trackless trams.

^

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1453014304958165004

[Ari 🚋]

(I god hope the Gold Glider doesn't become a thing- we are in serious trouble if it does...)

I might be missing something super obvious, but why the opposition to the gold CityGlider?

[Cazza]

No need to tack yet another duplicative route onto an already broken network. If they were really wanting to provide better services for the Hamilton area rather than rearranging the deck chairs of low frequency services that are coming into effect on 8 November, BUZ the 300 and have the 305 run full-time from Northshore Hamilton to RBWH via Portside, Kingsford Smith Dr and Bowen Hills Station.

The population growth of Hamilton has grown exponentially over the past decade, yet we have only seen Route 304 introduced (a poor excuse of covering an area with PT). How can the population of an area growth by however many hundred%, yet public transport funding for the same area has just stagnated? The same can be said for most areas of the city.

The GoldGlider is nothing but a way to try and hype Brisbane up for the Olympics. We need a proper network review, not services that cost $94,000 for a feasibility study to determine that "oh yes, it appears Hamilton has quite a large population but does not have an adequate bus service for the area. We should definitely provide more frequent and reliable services for the area". The way they will go about doing that appears to just want to slap the Fool's Gold-Glider on top, rather than a logical review and proper service changes/investment.

[#Metro]

Members, Gird your Loins! 

New 'Gold' Cityglider proposed to service high-growth areas 16 October 2021.
https://www.adrianschrinner.com.au/media-announcements/new-gold-cityglider-proposed-to-service-high-growth-areas/


RBOT welcomes bus frequency increases, however they have to harmonise with the rest of the bus network. I agree with other members that the right choice is to BUZ the 300 service, and make the 305 originate at Portside Hamilton rather than Ascot. Also, we would like to be consulted on route changes/concepts/plans... something that BCC doesn't seem to do.

The Schrinner Council has put the wheels in motion for a new CityGlider bus service to link Hamilton to Woolloongabba.

Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner said the 2021-22 Budget allocated $94,000 to undertake a business case for a potential Gold CityGlider route.

"Under this exciting proposal a dedicated service would connect the fast-growing area of Hamilton to Woolloongabba, via Fortitude Valley and the Eagle and Mary street end of the CBD," Cr Schrinner said.

"It would operate like the existing and very successful Blue and Maroon CityGliders, providing a high-frequency service – seven days a week and 24 hours on the weekend.

[Cazza]

I still cannot get over the fact it is costing $94,000 to figure out that Hamilton needs a high frequency bus. Like seriously BCC, just pay me $30/hour and I can do it all for you. From the route to timetables to stop locations and run sheets. That'll take me 10 hours tops. Do I get to pocket the extra $93,700 too?

[#Metro]

94K! 

Anyone want to incorporate a RBOT consultancy where you get paid $300/hr to pretty much give the same advice we post here on the forum for free?? 

Or maybe a black tie fundraising dinner where we charge for presenting bus reform proposals. 

[techblitz]

I still cannot get over the fact it is costing $94,000 to figure out that Hamilton needs a high frequency bus. Like seriously BCC, just pay me $30/hour and I can do it all for you. From the route to timetables to stop locations and run sheets. That'll take me 10 hours tops. Do I get to pocket the extra $93,700 too?

that is the second time you've have suggested that..its not how it works...
If it did work like that......they could get it done even cheaper that your 30bux and just get the ideas off here for free.

In the real world @cazza there is a thing called 'chain of responsibility'...
If for example bcc decide to hire some random enthusiasts off forums and the route does not live up to expectations.
Someone has to be accountable for it.

Top brass will ask the question.....who did you hire and what were their qualifications and employment history in public transport planning??
Imagine the response when the person who hired you says...'oh I found this person on a public transport forum....going by thier posts...they look really qualified'
Yeah nah...that aint gonna turn out well for them...

You have choices.....either you do the hard yards and get some tertiary qualifications OR build up employment history starting at the bottom of an organisation like translink/bcc and work your way up...

Its either that or just continue with the in-person/online meet-ups that ozbob or authorised transport department staff arrange......where you can put in your suggestions......but you aint gonna get paid for it.

That's the reality we deal with at the moment....

[#Metro]

Who told BCC that running a bus between two Car Parks - avoiding Toowong train station -  and Mt Coot-tha was a good idea? 

Most of the planning I think is being done by political advisors and the PR department IMHO. Just like in the ABC series Utopia.

RBOT has had some of its ideas go through - Route 66 - created from the merger of 109 (UQ Lakes) and 66 (W'Gabba) is one example. It's the most patronised bus in the entire network. 

that is the second time you've have suggested that..its not how it works...
If it did work like that......they could get it done even cheaper that your 30bux and just get the ideas off here for free.

In the real world @cazza there is a thing called 'chain of responsibility'...
If for example bcc decide to hire some random enthusiasts off forums and the route does not live up to expectations.
Someone has to be accountable for it.

Top brass will ask the question.....who did you hire and what were their qualifications and employment history in public transport planning??
Imagine the response when the person who hired you says...'oh I found this person on a public transport forum....going by thier posts...they look really qualified'
Yeah nah...that aint gonna turn out well for them...

You have choices.....either you do the hard yards and get some tertiary qualifications OR build up employment history starting at the bottom of an organisation like translink/bcc and work your way up...

Its either that or just continue with the in-person/online meet-ups that ozbob or authorised transport department staff arrange......where you can put in your suggestions......but you aint gonna get paid for it.

That's the reality we deal with at the moment....

[Cazza]

Of course BCC aren't going to employ me on some casual basis just to plan a route. I'm just trying to highlight the fact of how ridiculous it is that a bus route costs nearly $100K just to understand whether it's feasible or not.

For context, down in NSW, Route 643 (Gables to Rouse Hill) has just appeared out of no where to serve a growing residential area (https://transportnsw.info/news/2021/north-west-north-shore-sydney-bus-service-changes). No song and dance about "oh look at us, we are going to put nearly $100K to first determine if it makes sense or not and whether this rapidly growing residential area requires a regular bus service and take a good few years to plan it out". TfNSW would have pulled up a map gone "there is a growing residential area that needs to be served by a bus route connecting to Rouse Hill, let's put it in". A few number crunches and chats with Hillsbus and bam, there's your bus route.

Also, if a frequent bus to Hamilton doesn't perform, then I think anyone in the network planning side of BCC or Translink would be just as surprised as us all. What Metro said, who advised that running a Free Shuttle Bus between a car park and an even larger car park would be a worthwhile investment? Recall the P88? Who's idea was that? How about the Maroon Glider? Why were they/are they a thing? It's almost like something more important than sound transportation planning got in the way...

On the topic of accountability, then why isn't anyone accountable for the state of the network at the moment? My personal 45 seat taxi (Route 373) literally just carries air aside from maybe 4 of it's 19 daily trips. It is far from the only route and we all know that. Why isn't anyone accountable for the inbound 333/340s running within 2 mins of each other, then having a 13 min service gap? Why isn't anyone accountable for the near daily congo-line of buses inbound along Coro Dr of an afternoon? Where's the accountability from Translink for claiming for years that they want to provide an "efficient network" that provides "value for money" and is "well patronised". There have been unconfirmed reports of drivers pushing the count button when no passengers board on some of the Ex-Hornibrook routes (like the 327) to try and put lipstick on a pig. Any accountability for artificially inflating patronage figures?

Why aren't we seeing the beginnings of a network review and overhaul for the Brisbane Metro? It's just 2 years away. A comprehensive review of the entire network is required and will easily take that amount of time to come up with. Auckland did the same recently and took them over 3!

I appreciate the life advise, but being just 19 and in my second year of uni already with a job in the planning industry, I can't really get too much further in my career than I am now.

[#Metro]

A lot of members here are frustrated with BCC and for good reason.

BCC for example, has opened up a very good consultation on their CityCat and Ferry network. BCC is actually very good at community consultation - just not when its bus network is involved! It is a real shame because a lot of unnecessary trials which cost $$$ are being done when we could have pointed out the obvious from the outset.

Some good ideas like BulimbaGlider or CentenaryGlider (or even BUZ on these routes) haven't taken off for want of attention.

I am a bit concerned about the Metro because fundamentally, the technology will need to be rolled out into surrounding LGAs and that needs to rely on transfers across council boundaries. BCC has no interest in transporting pax who are not 'their' ratepayers. It has been a sore point in the past and is likely to be another sore point in the future.

Also, running buses from Logan and Redlands into the CBD - more than 20 km away - doesn't make sense. This is not what urban buses were designed for and in other places, people would be catching the bus to a subway or skytrain station and catching line haul transport into the CBD.

[techblitz]

Its not only BCC...
I predicted as soon a A.P comes into power as premier.....she wouldnt even so much as mention those two words 'bus review'...
Whats that 6 years now??
The reason I was so confidently able to predict?.....she was leading the bus protests down at inala.

A lot of members here are extremely frustrated with BCC for many years and for good reason.

Frustrated with the level of relevance that has been shown to RBOT.....understandable.....a lot of effort is put in......but there is only so much we can achieve via ozbobs connections and status.
Its now up to members to assist him...to try and claw in connections and participation for the forum....to increase its relevance...
Im regularly mentioning the forum to people on my public transport trips.....quite a few QR staff have heard of RBOT......not so many bus staff;)

@cazza...
Dont get me wrong..i too think its absurd how much money is spent for such mediocre achievements.....but it is what it is..
You seem very knowledgable on bus routes.....in all regions....you really should try getting an internship if your second year uni?

At only 19 I think if you keep at it....you could be a future Jarret walker.....now there is a guy who gets paid...puts in a hell of a lot of work for it tho..
Doesn't post frequently...but the depth and analysis is mind boggling...
That's just the quality that the bigwig bureaucrats and transport departments pay absurd money for....
Its just sad here in Brisbane we are paying absurd money for peanuts...

[#Metro]

Its now up to members to assist him...to try and claw in connections and participation for the forum....to increase its relevance...
Im regularly mentioning the forum to people on my public transport trips.....quite a few QR staff have heard of RBOT......not so many bus staff;)

Incorporation perhaps? And a dinner where we reveal bus proposals etc - with cover charge 

[techblitz]

we can clearly outwit the current planners on many aspects....wouldn't it be sweet if they started tendering on bus route planning? 

[#Metro]

I think gov only listen when you charge hefty fee. It's like high fee is some proxy for quality.

Maybe we should put up a paywall on some things 

[aldonius]

we can clearly outwit the current planners on many aspects....wouldn't it be sweet if they started tendering on bus route planning? 

Hey now. Have some respect for actual planners. Most of what they do would never get published.

[ozbob]

^  agree.  I have had contact with TL bus planners over the years and they are very good in my view.  The problem is convincing Government that service changes needed and the commensurate funding made available.  Slow progress is not due to a lack of positive planning initiatives.

[#Metro]

Former Lord Mayor Graham Quirk de-railed the bus review, and red team councillors were out there in a co-ordinated scare campaign to sink the bus reforms in 2013-2014.

During the tenure of the former head of BCC's BT, network planning was modelled around not feeding the railway network, as it was described as a "forced transfer", rather buses would "provide the opportunity, but not the obligation to transfer". This is the primary reason why a huge volume of buses originate in the Western Suburbs of Brisbane and run along Coronation Drive duplicating both themselves and heavy rail in the process. It is for "choice" purposes (read: operating the bus network like a taxi).

The outcome here was that TransLink is essentially paying, say twice as much so that both competing modes can carry half the passengers each along that Coronation Drive corridor.

A few of us actually sat in a meeting during a RBOT conference many years ago with the head of BT and were told that Perth's approach to running buses to trains was due to "Perth being a linear city" (which it is not) and that bus passengers from Western Brisbane could not really be expected to transfer to QR trains at places such as Indooroopilly because in the morning "the train is full" and there wouldn't be the space for transferring passengers. It makes you wonder how things get done on the Gold Coast with exactly this sort of network or in Perth which does exactly this.



Bus reform is in the too hard basket for BCC and the main planning principle they use to filter any network proposals is fear rather than some sort of service ideal. It will be very interesting to see how they propose to redesign the bus network come the new BRT-metro services and whether services will simply be run over the top the the existing network (very likely IMHO).

[ozbob]

^ which gets back the fundamental problem   ... silos.



Until there is Public Transport Queensland or the equivalent we are in barbed wire canoes paddling up sh%t creek!

[#Metro]

BRT-metro

This seems like a good description of the "metro". Maybe we could adopt this use? 

[verbatim9]

Brisbane Development---> Major Construction Begins at Brisbane Metro Depot

Some great visualisations put together on this site.

[AnonymouslyBad]

Bus reform is in the too hard basket for BCC and the main planning principle they use to filter any network proposals is fear rather than some sort of service ideal. It will be very interesting to see how they propose to redesign the bus network come the new BRT-metro services and whether services will simply be run over the top the the existing network (very likely IMHO).

I still have some hope they'll use "Brisbane Metro" as a catalyst for a proper review of the 1xx region. There's allegedly planning already underway, which suggests it must be more extensive than just a rebrand of the 111 and 66.
I suspect BCC's standard reluctance to invest any political capital will 'protect' (ha) the core BUZ network but the days of suburban milk runs going into the CBD will be over.

The 66 corridor I can't see anything really changing, they won't change the northside at the same time and the network is so radial that there's not much point otherwise.

[aldonius]

Strong agree that the 66 metro-fication shouldn't really change much about the Northside routes.

From a service perspective, it's not like the 66 doesn't already have lots of passengers on the INB stretch, and almost everything through RBWH is already what I'd call "trunk route".

Meanwhile from an infrastructure perspective, RBWH isn't set up for terminating routes from the north and to put something in either at Federation St or closer to the CBD would be forced transfer for the sake of forced transfer.

[verbatim9]

Hopefully, Translink and BCC can transfer the articulated buses used currently on route 66 to route 412 when metro starts operating.

[aldonius]

The 412 demand is very peaky both temporally (class start on the hour and finish at ten to) and geographically between Toowong and UQ. All that's really needed is for 402s to run at the right time and for there to be placards telling people to use them (preferably there'd be some stop rationalisation too so they had the exact same stops).

[verbatim9]

The 412 demand is very peaky both temporally (class start on the hour and finish at ten to) and geographically between Toowong and UQ. All that's really needed is for 402s to run at the right time and for there to be placards telling people to use them (preferably there'd be some stop rationalisation too so they had the exact same stops).

Do you actually catch that bus and see the overcrowding at the boarding point at Roma Street  stop 138 in the city. I think you have to review your annecdotal evidence regarding the 412 loads.

Loads have reduced over the last year due to the decline of international visitors and students. This will increase again significantly next year.

[verbatim9]

Just addressing route 402. This service is just duplicating the 412 from UQ to Toowong. It should be scrapped once articualed buses replace regular buses on route 412. This will lead in better efficiency and reduced runnings costs of PT services between UQ and Toowong.

When route 412 has articulated buses running every 5-10 mins with all door boarding throughout the day until 9 pm.  People will see huge improvements in on-time running and available space within in the vehicles.

[#Metro]

Just addressing route 402. This service is just duplicating the 412 from UQ to Toowong. It should be scrapped once articualed buses replace regular buses on route 412. This will lead in better efficiency and reduced runnings costs of PT services between UQ and Toowong.

When route 412 has articulated buses running every 5-10 mins with all door boarding throughout the day until 9 pm.  People will see huge improvements in on-time running and available space within in the vehicles.

Apparently, there are "roundabout issues" and the articulated buses won't turn in the Chancellors Place roundabout without major modification.

You would have to wipe out and relocate the taxi zone (do-able, just place that in front of the Brian Wilson Chancellery) and maybe remodel some of the kerb space. I think I have seen arctic buses go into the infamous QSBS snake, so Chancellors Place without the taxi rank shouldn't be an issue?

About route 402 - I think that should be turned into a rocket. Pick up from Toowong, zoom non-stop down Sir Fred Schonell Drive, maybe make one stop at Schonell Drive local shops, and then zoom non-stop to Chancellors Place. This would be similar to the arrangement of the 401 Monash Uni bus in Melbourne which picks up at Huntingdale Station.

By making 402 a rocket, the incentive is there for people to catch it over the 412.