Redcliffe Peninsula line & associated changes - rail

[SurfRail]

^ Not seeing the issue with that one.

The issue is that the Northgate starters are missing off all .pdf timetables available on TransLink's website including the Shorncliffe Line timetable that the Cab/Red timetables refer to.

Ah.   I thought you were referring to the Shorncliffe services more generally.

On this point we are agreed.   They should be in the PDF and on the website.  I'd also suggest that the PID colour should be dark blue as well.

[Arnz]

The second 5-car ICE consist had been reported on the TL page as replacing the 6-car IMU on the 4pm Nambour service.  Reported overcrowded with standees up and down the aisles, despite the service now scheduled to run express Bowen Hills to Caboolture stopping only at Northgate and Petrie.

[tazzer9]

The second 5-car ICE consist had been reported on the TL page as replacing the 6-car IMU on the 4pm Nambour service.  Reported overcrowded with standees up and down the aisles, despite the service now scheduled to run express Bowen Hills to Caboolture stopping only at Northgate and Petrie.

Saw it pass eagle junction.  Did not seem too busy.
They simply need to bite the bullet and admit they need another nambour/landsborough service in that time frame, which ironically is entirely possible.

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/10/redcliffe-peninsula-line-winners-losers.html
Redcliffe Peninsula Line - Winners, Losers, and the Incompetent

[HappyTrainGuy]

Inner city timetable has been available for ages now.

http://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/resources/about-translink/projects-initiatives/mbrl/inner-north-draft-timetable.PDF

[ozbob]

TransLink have confirmed, I think, that the draft inner-north timetable is infact the final? 

Pity they haven't done that and listed with the rest of the timetables though hey ...

@robert_dow Hi, thanks for bringing this to our attention. This is the finalised timetable, apologies for the confusion -N

— TransLink (@TransLinkSEQ) October 4, 2016

[ozbob]

BrizCommuter:
Redcliffe Peninsula Line - Winners, Losers, and the Incompetent
> https://t.co/mlVYKNKZk2#qldpol pic.twitter.com/7WG1aOnqS4

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) October 4, 2016

[STB]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/10/redcliffe-peninsula-line-winners-losers.html
Redcliffe Peninsula Line - Winners, Losers, and the Incompetent

I can confirm the 6:46am ex Kippa Ring was a 6 car train.  I caught the first outbound train yesterday morning from Central to Kippa Ring and every Kippa Ring-City train was a 6 car set.  Only 3 car sets I noticed were ones departing after 8am.

[STB]

Went up yesterday on the first outbound revenue service to Kippa Ring from Central to check out the new line and go station to station exploring.  Everything seemed to run quite smoothly, with the only strange unfortunate thing of the station staff encouraging passengers to complain to TransLink/Qld Rail to make the Kippa Ring trains run express like the Caboolture trains (ie: Petrie to Bowen Hills).  I don't think that's appropriate, nor is the line and scheduling set up that way.

[ozbob]

^ Thanks for that feedback STB.  I guess they cannot be bothered explaining the reasons. 

Same deal with Springfield line of course, ' where is my express ? '.

I have explained in depth many times to punters the reasons why everyone cannot have an express service, particularly where the lines overlap.

[BrizCommuter]

Went up yesterday on the first outbound revenue service to Kippa Ring from Central to check out the new line and go station to station exploring.  Everything seemed to run quite smoothly, with the only strange unfortunate thing of the station staff encouraging passengers to complain to TransLink/Qld Rail to make the Kippa Ring trains run express like the Caboolture trains (ie: Petrie to Bowen Hills).  I don't think that's appropriate, nor is the line and scheduling set up that way.

Agree, and would result in reduction of frequency of Caboolture and Redcliffe services from every 6 to every 9 minutes in the am peak to allow for a Petrie all stations. Track layouts may also be prohibitive.

6:47 ex Ferny Grove appears to have been chopped in half from 6-cars to 3-cars this morning. This may also effect an inbound Beenleigh Line train later in the am peak. Don't know if this is a one off today, or a result of the new timetables.

[#Metro]

Everything seemed to run quite smoothly, with the only strange unfortunate thing of the station staff encouraging passengers to complain to TransLink/Qld Rail to make the Kippa Ring trains run express like the Caboolture trains (ie: Petrie to Bowen Hills).  I don't think that's appropriate, nor is the line and scheduling set up that way.

What trains will stop at stations in-between? 

This is the thing: everyone wants the train to stop at a station near them, AND express. Both options point in different directions.

But there is a word of caution here: public transport needs to be fast. So those complaining do have a legitimate thing to complain about. One hour is a long time.

In free-flow traffic, it is 10 minutes faster to take the car, and that is ignoring the 30 minute wait for the train. If we factor that wait in, the train is 65 + 15 = 80 minute journey (train) vs car (52 minutes).

In peak hour, the train becomes more competitive because train frequency increases and road conditions degrade. However, PT needs to be competitive around the clock IMHO.

One hour end to end one way trip is too long. It is 2x the value of the Marchetti constant - the fixed daily travel time budget of people.

This is why for future Sunshine Coast line upgrades, incrementally pushing the network to a regional rapid rail model end goal is what I support. ~ 10 km station spacing from Noosa to Caloundra, high speed (160+ km/hr trains).

[BrizCommuter]

6:54 ex Shorncliffe 3-car sardine can wins award for train packed full of most miserable commuters this morning (note this train has no preceding Northgate starter). Amusement as QR staff then try to squeeze a disabled man on board at FV. Poor man had rather a lot of death stares.

[brissypete]

I'm sure Kippa Ring will get the odd express due to "operational issues" at some stage.

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[ozbob]

I'm sure Kippa Ring will get the odd express due to "operational issues" at some stage.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

[BrizCommuter]

Report of a pm peak Beenleigh Line 6-car train being chopped in half to 3-cars last night.

[petey3801]

Briz, looks like the 6.47 ex FYG this morning was due to a mechanical or some other problem, as it is still listed as a 6car in the timetable, hopefully should be back to 6 tomorrow!
Unfortunately it seems the planning has been a little bit odd in regards to the Northgate/Shorncliffe AM peak services with several 3 car trains in a row rostered in the timetable, which is a bugger! Other than that, 3 car unit use hasn't increased much from the previous timetable and is always bookended by 6car trains. Hopefully the SHC/NTG consecutive 3car trains might be able to be broken up somehow.

[BrizCommuter]

Briz, looks like the 6.47 ex FYG this morning was due to a mechanical or some other problem, as it is still listed as a 6car in the timetable, hopefully should be back to 6 tomorrow!
Unfortunately it seems the planning has been a little bit odd in regards to the Northgate/Shorncliffe AM peak services with several 3 car trains in a row rostered in the timetable, which is a bugger! Other than that, 3 car unit use hasn't increased much from the previous timetable and is always bookended by 6car trains. Hopefully the SHC/NTG consecutive 3car trains might be able to be broken up somehow.

Thanks for the info. Quite a few "chopped" trains reported on multiple lines this morning due to "operational issues" (i.e. No spare trains).

Can I ask how many 3-car units are currently utilised in the am and pm peaks? This information would be useful on a future article looking at how many more NGR may need to be ordered. Thanks.

[Gazza]

Re the moaning about Kippa Ring expresses.
If, we had more trains, how feasible would it be to have Petrie all station starters, then have Kippa and Cabo trains running the same stopping pattern?

[Arnz]

The 75 NGR trains iirc (assuming it replaces 43.5 EMUs and 4x 5-car ICEs) will probably will be used to get Kippa-Ring to Springfield to 15 minutes off-peak/weekend/evenings across 7 days, and getting Ipswich-Brisbane-Caboolture/Nambour up from 90 minutes off-peak beyond Caboolture to hourly beyond Caboolture (as per the Peter Wellington/Jackie Trad annoucement, although delayed from its "end of 2016/early 2017" date).

Ferny Grove - Coopers Plains 15 minutes may be extended from Weekdays to weekends too?  Extending the weekend Northgate starters/terminators to Cannon Hill is another.

[City Designer]

Was out at Kippa-Ring station this morning. The clockwise 696 wisely said on the destination 'Kippa-Ring 696 Clockwise Loop'.

On the other hand the anti-clockwise 696 said 'Kippa-Ring 696 via Victoria Avenue'. No indication of direction and information that becomes meaningless once the street named is passed.

It's also impossible to derive the direction of the 696 journeys at Kippa-Ring station stop B because the destinations arbitrarily say Redcliffe, Humbybong Esplanade or Peninsula Fair.

I worked out that Peninsula Fair means anti-clockwise because the clockwise 696 loop doesn't operate at night.

Absolutely pathetic!

[petey3801]

Briz, looks like the 6.47 ex FYG this morning was due to a mechanical or some other problem, as it is still listed as a 6car in the timetable, hopefully should be back to 6 tomorrow!
Unfortunately it seems the planning has been a little bit odd in regards to the Northgate/Shorncliffe AM peak services with several 3 car trains in a row rostered in the timetable, which is a bugger! Other than that, 3 car unit use hasn't increased much from the previous timetable and is always bookended by 6car trains. Hopefully the SHC/NTG consecutive 3car trains might be able to be broken up somehow.

Thanks for the info. Quite a few "chopped" trains reported on multiple lines this morning due to "operational issues" (i.e. No spare trains).

Can I ask how many 3-car units are currently utilised in the am and pm peaks? This information would be useful on a future article looking at how many more NGR may need to be ordered. Thanks.

I'll have a look through and get back to you. I did check it out yesterday on my meal break at work, but it seems I must have thrown out the piece of paper!!

[BrizCommuter]

Briz, looks like the 6.47 ex FYG this morning was due to a mechanical or some other problem, as it is still listed as a 6car in the timetable, hopefully should be back to 6 tomorrow!
Unfortunately it seems the planning has been a little bit odd in regards to the Northgate/Shorncliffe AM peak services with several 3 car trains in a row rostered in the timetable, which is a bugger! Other than that, 3 car unit use hasn't increased much from the previous timetable and is always bookended by 6car trains. Hopefully the SHC/NTG consecutive 3car trains might be able to be broken up somehow.

Thanks for the info. Quite a few "chopped" trains reported on multiple lines this morning due to "operational issues" (i.e. No spare trains).

Can I ask how many 3-car units are currently utilised in the am and pm peaks? This information would be useful on a future article looking at how many more NGR may need to be ordered. Thanks.

I'll have a look through and get back to you. I did check it out yesterday on my meal break at work, but it seems I must have thrown out the piece of paper!!

Thanks. I look forward to the information, which I'm sure will be useful to other RailBOT members too. (My guess is at least 12 3-car units running in am peak)

[SurfRail]

Was out at Kippa-Ring station this morning. The clockwise 696 wisely said on the destination 'Kippa-Ring 696 Clockwise Loop.

On the other hand the anti-clockwise 696 said 'Kippa-Ring 696 via Victoria Avenue. No indication of direction and information that becomes meaningless once the street named is passed.

It's also impossible to derive the direction of the 696 journeys at Kippa-Ring station stop B because the destinations arbitrarily say Redcliffe, Humbybong Esplanade or Peninsula Fair.

I worked out that Peninsula Fair means anti-clockwise because the clockwise 696 loop doesn't operate at night.

Absolutely pathetic!

I know the person who programmed them - the wording was specified by TransLink and not his or Hornibrook's preference.

A lot of route numbering issues still floating around that should have been fixed.  In the interim, the Complete Idiot's Guide to Northern Region Route Numbering:

- 688/689 - different route number for the 2 directions of a loop
- 681/682 - different route number depending on the time of day
- 696 - same route number for both directions of a loop
- 653/654 - different route number for the same linear route in different directions
- everything else - same route number for both directions of a linear route

[petey3801]

Rightio, the count is in:
AM Peak (0600 ex Terminus, pre-0900 arr Central)
FYG: 5 (with a couple pre-0600 departures also as 3 car)
NTG: 6
SHC: 3
CAB: 1
KPR: 0 (one that arrives at Central 0947)
DBN: 2
BDT: 0
IPS: 3
SFC: 1
BNH: 1
KRY/CEP: 2
CVN: 0 (two that arrive Central 0911, 0928)
MNY: 1
NBR, VYS: 0 (NBR has a couple 5 car ICE units)

Total AM Peak: 25 3car Services.

PM Peak (1600-1900 ex Central)
FYG: 1
NTG: 3
SHC: 3
CAB: 2
KPR: 0
DBN: 3
BDT: 0
IPS: 0
SFC: 0
BNH: 0
KRY/CEP: 2
CVN: 2
MNY: 0
VYS/NBR: 0 (NBR has one ICE).

Total PM Peak: 16 3car Services


Note: Completely subject to change.

[City Designer]

Was out at Kippa-Ring station this morning. The clockwise 696 wisely said on the destination 'Kippa-Ring 696 Clockwise Loop.

On the other hand the anti-clockwise 696 said 'Kippa-Ring 696 via Victoria Avenue. No indication of direction and information that becomes meaningless once the street named is passed.

It's also impossible to derive the direction of the 696 journeys at Kippa-Ring station stop B because the destinations arbitrarily say Redcliffe, Humbybong Esplanade or Peninsula Fair.

I worked out that Peninsula Fair means anti-clockwise because the clockwise 696 loop doesn't operate at night.

Absolutely pathetic!

I know the person who programmed them - the wording was specified by TransLink and not his or Hornibrook's preference.

A lot of route numbering issues still floating around that should have been fixed.  In the interim, the Complete Idiot's Guide to Northern Region Route Numbering:

- 688/689 - different route number for the 2 directions of a loop
- 681/682 - different route number depending on the time of day
- 696 - same route number for both directions of a loop
- 653/654 - different route number for the same linear route in different directions
- everything else - same route number for both directions of a linear route

I had an argument with one of the planners over this during the public consultation.

When they were adamant that having one route number was simpler I said good luck with that, I have never seen a bidirectional loop with a single route number ever.

[BrizCommuter]

Rightio, the count is in:
AM Peak (0600 ex Terminus, pre-0900 arr Central)
FYG: 5 (with a couple pre-0600 departures also as 3 car)
NTG: 6
SHC: 3
CAB: 1
KPR: 0 (one that arrives at Central 0947)
DBN: 2
BDT: 0
IPS: 3
SFC: 1
BNH: 1
KRY/CEP: 2
CVN: 0 (two that arrive Central 0911, 0928)
MNY: 1
NBR, VYS: 0 (NBR has a couple 5 car ICE units)

Total AM Peak: 25 3car Services.

PM Peak (1600-1900 ex Central)
FYG: 1
NTG: 3
SHC: 3
CAB: 2
KPR: 0
DBN: 3
BDT: 0
IPS: 0
SFC: 0
BNH: 0
KRY/CEP: 2
CVN: 2
MNY: 0
VYS/NBR: 0 (NBR has one ICE).

Total PM Peak: 16 3car Services


Note: Completely subject to change.

Excellent information. Thanks for your hard work. As some of these services would use the same train, would you also happen to have figured on the number of 3-car trains utilised  (rather than services). Thanks.

[brissypete]

I'm sure Kippa Ring will get the odd express due to "operational issues" at some stage.

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Guess I should have kept my mouth shut



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[ozbob]

 

[#Metro]

Re the moaning about Kippa Ring expresses.
If, we had more trains, how feasible would it be to have Petrie all station starters, then have Kippa and Cabo trains running the same stopping pattern?

Theoretically possible I think, but as you say, would require more trains and more drivers and guards.

Would save around 8-10 minutes - would it be worth it?

[SurfRail]

Then the expresses would be overcrowded.

[Arnz]

I would assume that the 2x morning ex-NBR services (that run express Caboolture to Bowen Hills stopping at Petrie and Northgate) are both 5-car ICEs.  That gets at least 3x 5-car ICE consists operating in the AM peak coming from north of Caboolture (2x NBR and 1x GYN) in the morning, even if it means dead-running one of the 5-car ICE consists to NBR each morning (which of course is a waste of dead-run).

Putting the *foamy/armchair planner* hat on  , is it possible to run a early morning service up to Cooroy (leaving Central between 4am and 4:30am, rather than dead running a 5-car ICE consist up to NBR early in the morning) and then run it back as a Cooroy-Roma Street service as a extension of the new 7:26am Nambour to Roma Street ICE service?

That's taking into consideration the loop crossings that are required with the inbound trains ex-NBR/GYN in the AM of course.

[Stillwater]

That would be a 7am start from Cooroy back to Brisbane?  The Gympielander southbound would have passed through Cooroy at about 6.37am.  So both trains would need to pass north of Nbr ... close running.  Am I reading you correctly?

[BrizCommuter]

Re the moaning about Kippa Ring expresses.
If, we had more trains, how feasible would it be to have Petrie all station starters, then have Kippa and Cabo trains running the same stopping pattern?

Theoretically possible I think, but as you say, would require more trains and more drivers and guards.

Would save around 8-10 minutes - would it be worth it?

Probably less trains. As mentioned before the highest frequency would be every 9 mins for Cab exp, Red exp, and Pet all stations. This would be a reduction in frequency of 33% for all passengers and possibly increase overcrowding on some Caboolture services. There will be a blog post on this soon.

[#Metro]

Probably less trains. As mentioned before the highest frequency would be every 9 mins for Cab exp, Red exp, and Pet all stations. This would be a reduction in frequency of 33% for all passengers and possibly increase overcrowding on some Caboolture services. There will be a blog post on this soon

Redcliffe is 35 km out from the city and on the train takes 53 minutes (or 68 minutes if you factor in average waiting).

I hope that future rail projects put a much higher and uncompromising value on absolute speed. Not everything can be within the magic 30 minutes, but 45 minutes should be achievable.

[BrizCommuter]

Looks like the social media angst is concentrated on overcrowded Shorncliffe Line 3-car services this morning.

[BrizCommuter]

...and passengers from Carseldine not being able to get a seat.

[verbatim9]

The journeys were not showing up on Google Maps either yesterday. So I guess all the Apps are awaiting an updated Data feed for the new line.

[SurfRail]

The problem is exacerbated by the fact the Northgate services show up as "CA##" or "##CA" (ie Caboolture line shortworkings), which makes the online timetable a pain in the neck to follow.  If these are treated as being Shorncliffe line workings it would be much simpler and more accurate.

[urbanplanr]

I am having a lot of trouble finding the Northgate services in the timetables as well as real-time in the app.

Shouldn't they introduce a new designation? XXNG or NGXX etc?