RAIL - Back On Track Forum

A 2013 opening seems to be really pushing it should be interesting to see if it sticks to schedule.

Greenfield, it will proceed like lightening, the only real concern from here will be weather ...

Once again the point has been raised on the construction of the station at EllenGrove.
At the present time Richlands is already parked out by 8.00am of a weekday morning, Springfield and Springfield Central will apparently have limited parking, possibly 300 spaces between them, less than half the number of parking spaces at Richlands (650).
The immediate construction of the station at EllenGrove would provide a further 200/250 parking spaces which could be avaliable within less than nine months.
There would be a considerable cost saving by building EllenGrove as a greenfield site rather than on a in service line, savings of around a third.
The station site for EllenGrove lends itself to a simple (low cost) facility using a subway and ramp thus avoiding the need for expensive to construct, operate and maintain lifts to comply with disability access requirements.
The provision of this additional parking would absorb many of those commuters who currently drive from Forest Lake to Richlands only to find out that it is parked out and they then continue their commute into the CBD by car adding to the congestion on the Centenary Highway morning mobile parking lot.   

Quote from: mufreight on October 23, 2011, 09:56:58 AM
There would be a considerable cost saving by building EllenGrove as a greenfield site rather than on a in service line, savings of around a third.

I think that's the main point.

  @ mufreight

You guys ever been to Ormeau station? That's about how popular Ellen Grove would be.

The current location shown in planning documents is illogical, needs to be further south. If they built it where proposed, it would be the "Gailes of the Springfield Line"

Quote from: Gazza on October 23, 2011, 10:54:10 AM
You guys ever been to Ormeau station? That's about how popular Ellen Grove would be.

I pass through it every day.  It is more popular than many metropolitan stations, and is likely to get busier.

I also see an awful lot of low density land west of Woogaroo St just ripe for redevelopment.

Attended the Official Sod Turning Ceremony to mark the commencement of the Richlands - Springfield project.  Work has officially commenced, mainly geo-tech surveys and the like.

Some photographs from the day. 
Nice to catch up with Trackstar personnel as well who did a great job on community engagement (and construction) Corinda to Darra, Caboolture to Beerburrum.









Springfield Central Station Location



Rail line ROW marked with white survey pegs













Photographs R Dow 23rd October 2011

Quote from: Gazza on October 23, 2011, 10:54:10 AM
You guys ever been to Ormeau station? That's about how popular Ellen Grove would be.

The current location shown in planning documents is illogical, needs to be further south. If they built it where proposed, it would be the "Gailes of the Springfield Line"

I presume they would develop the land in the vicinity to have walk up patronage.

Quote from: SurfRail on October 23, 2011, 11:18:03 AM

Quote from: Gazza on October 23, 2011, 10:54:10 AM
You guys ever been to Ormeau station? That's about how popular Ellen Grove would be.

I pass through it every day.  It is more popular than many metropolitan stations, and is likely to get busier.

I also see an awful lot of low density land west of Woogaroo St just ripe for redevelopment.

I also see an awful lot of low density land west of Ormeau Station just ripe for redevelopment, but it has sat undeveloped for 15 years since the station opened:
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=ormeau&hl=en&ll=-27.798748,153.28625&spn=0.015679,0.033023&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=62.911267,135.263672&vpsrc=6&hnear=Ormeau+Queensland&t=h&z=16

http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/AboutUs/MediaCentre/InformationSpeeches/Documents/Passenger%20Load%20Survey%202009.pdf
According to this, the station was getting just 230 peak hour boardings per morning in 2009.

This figure of 230 corresponds nearly exactly with the park and ride space count of 237.

Now, presumably that would have grown a few percent over the past couple of years...Some kiss and ride, some park and ride, 567 bus usage.

I think its crap policy to be designing stations mostly existing because of a park and ride. If a park and ride at a neighbouring station is being stretched, then just add another level to that car park, which would be cheaper than building, staffing and maintaining a separate station nearby.

When I went down to the Gold Coast a few weekends ago, Ormeau station was more used than I expected.  Maybe it shouldn't have been built?  This station could be different so long as the surrounding land is to be developed.

I think Ormeau is a special case because its the only station in a long stretch, and its an interurban service. But Richlands is quite close to Ellen Grove, so why bother at this time?

It would actually cost taxpayers less to get a private company to build the station as part of a full redevelopment plan for the area, which doesn't exist yet.

I am in favour of Ellen Grove now, both as relief for Richlands and to kick along development at that end of Forest Lake. It will also provide accessible public transport to the disadvantaged Carole Park area.

Every time I have caught the Gold Coast train there has been reasonable patronage at Ormeau.  It is incorrect to say that a station there is not justified.  Some blame can be apportioned to GCCC 'though, for holding back development around both Ormeau & Coomera - in particular the Coomera Town Centre development seems to be mired in red tape & finger pointing.

A station at Ellen Grove would not be the busiest on the network, but I'm sure it would justify its existence far more than, say, Hemmant or Rocklea.

Quote from: Gazza on October 23, 2011, 12:28:34 PM
I think Ormeau is a special case because its the only station in a long stretch, and its an interurban service. But Richlands is quite close to Ellen Grove, so why bother at this time?

It would actually cost taxpayers less to get a private company to build the station as part of a full redevelopment plan for the area, which doesn't exist yet.

Sorry Gazza but with parking at Richlands already at full capacity and the level of congestion on the Centenary Highway bordering on parking lot your argument stinks.
The Translink approach of do as little as possible and hope the problem goes away or someone else will pay to fix it has already proven to be failed hence the current mess that public transport particularly rail presently finds itself in.
A large number of those who currently commute by car from Forest Lake to Richlands station would use EllenGrove freeing up spaces at Richlands allowing those who currently drive to Richlands and on finding that they are unable to get a park there then continue their commute by car adding to the congestion on the Centenary Highway.
As for cost of constructing the station at EllenGrove now as against constructing it a further five or ten years time built as a greenfield project the costs would be less that 2 thirds that of building the same station brownfield on an in service rail link then add the additional costs of inflation.
Either this government is serious about public transport or it is not, seemingly from the manner in which infrastructure is half built at double the cost of doing the entire project properly allowing for the obvious future demand growth there is little actual interest or intent.
Glossy brocures and reports of what we might do (but probably will not anyway) in fifteen or twenty years no longer hold any credibility.

Just add 465/118 bus services.  Although a peak route from Forest Lake shops along College Av/Woodland Av/Partridge St to Darra Station might be worth it.  Currently these people need to use the 100.

The best way to approach the ellen grove issue would be to go via trackstar, they would have proper financial forecasts etc and could make a case to the gov same as the 4th track.

Springfield Land Corporation Chairman Maha Sinnathamby said yesterday when addressing the media and guests at the sod turning at Springfield that the population projections for Greater Springfield are now greater than Ipswich area by 2030 (> 200,000).  It is one of the fastest growing regions in Australia.  The other thing about Springfield is that the railway line has always been an integral part of the development, allowed for and encouraged.  Contrast that to North Lakes where the MBRL is actually an appendum not a planned part.  Springfield is an excellent example of starting to get things right.

The railway to Springfield Central will be very heavily used.  Richlands has well exceeded the official forecasts of patronage.  The 650 car park is full most days, and this is generating a lot of complaints to local political representatives from folks who wish to travel later in the day.  Yes, they can catch a bus from Forest Lake ...

The 535 bus, Springfield <-> Richlands will need ramping up  is my guess.  Hopefully this bus will do several things:  start to get some folks out of cars and the mess that is Centenary Highway most days (particularly north of Ipswich Highway), relieve parking pressure at Richlands and Goodna particularly, and further embed a public transport culture.

With respect to Ellen Grove, it would be sound to build the station seamlessly green-field as the line is constructed.  The areas around the proposed station are slotted for development and it would be a good driver.  Far better to build the boxes of 'ticky tacky' proximal to transport than some of the other transport poor residential pits of despair planned elsewhere.

Nonetheless, the line will be dual and stations at Springfield and Springfield Central will be in operation from day one, sometime in 2013.

These things take time, I first became aware of the concept of Springfield and the railway around 1992.   The final route is a little different from what was first proposed, but that is neither here nor there, the good thing is that is now being built!

Getting there Ozbob considering in 08 it was to be springfield only and single track we are making progress.

Bit to early to say but considering the blasphemy to run trains every 15 min to ipswich would it be possible that we may see 4tph springfield and 2tph ipswich? There seems to be no excuse why springfield can't handle 4tph not to mention to huge benefits of 6tph on the indro - milton section of the line.

The Premier and then Transport Minister Nolan both comitted to a 15 minute off peak frequency Bne - Ips and that was a year ago, still has not happened yet the Ministers spin merchants claim that the Ips line has a 15 minute frequency Darra - Bne and that fulfills the comitments publicly made.
There was previous to the opening of Richlands a weekday 15 minute frequency Corinda - Bne so by extending the services to Darra they now claim to have fulfilled the comitment, just more smoke and mirrors and duplicity and now the government is starting to realise that spin without substance achieves little, the espousals between now and the election will be mind blowing but only hot air after the election.
Rember that only days before the Premier announced the sell off of QR the Minister publicly stated that QR would not be sold.  Need more be said.

Quote from: O_128 on October 24, 2011, 06:45:04 AM
Getting there Ozbob considering in 08 it was to be springfield only and single track we are making progress.

Bit to early to say but considering the blasphemy to run trains every 15 min to ipswich would it be possible that we may see 4tph springfield and 2tph ipswich? There seems to be no excuse why springfield can't handle 4tph not to mention to huge benefits of 6tph on the indro - milton section of the line.

There is little reason why Richlands can't see 4tph now, but there isn't a reason why the Ipswich trains should still serve all stations in that scenario, as they won't be dividing the largest gaps.

Quote from: mufreight on October 24, 2011, 07:39:45 AM
The Premier and then Transport Minister Nolan both comitted to a 15 minute off peak frequency Bne - Ips and that was a year ago, still has not happened yet the Ministers spin merchants claim that the Ips line has a 15 minute frequency Darra - Bne and that fulfills the comitments publicly made.

I'm not sure that they did promise such a thing.  All their promises were short on detail.

From the Queensland Times 25th October 2011 page 10

Transport on track as work starts on rail line

That article is on the Queensland Times website as well:
http://www.qt.com.au/story/2011/10/25/transportontrackas-workstartsonrailline/

Calling the stations Springfield and Springfield Central may lead to confusion. The former needs something after the Springfield.

Quote from: Gazza on October 23, 2011, 10:54:10 AM
You guys ever been to Ormeau station? That's about how popular Ellen Grove would be.

The current location shown in planning documents is illogical, needs to be further south. If they built it where proposed, it would be the "Gailes of the Springfield Line"

I can't remember the location of the proposed 'Ellen Grove' station off the top of my head.  But if I think it's where it's proposed, I agree.  Probably best it be located in the Carole Park/Forest Lake area than a little further north, near where that intersection is to get onto the Hwy to Springfield coming from Forest Lake/Carole Park.  And instead of calling it 'Ellen Grove', call it 'Forest Lake' perhaps as that would be the suburb it would be located and is the nearest activity centre.

Quote from: STB on October 25, 2011, 20:02:45 PM

Quote from: Gazza on October 23, 2011, 10:54:10 AM
You guys ever been to Ormeau station? That's about how popular Ellen Grove would be.

The current location shown in planning documents is illogical, needs to be further south. If they built it where proposed, it would be the "Gailes of the Springfield Line"

I can't remember the location of the proposed 'Ellen Grove' station off the top of my head.  But if I think it's where it's proposed, I agree.  Probably best it be located in the Carole Park/Forest Lake area than a little further north, near where that intersection is to get onto the Hwy to Springfield coming from Forest Lake/Carole Park.  And instead of calling it 'Ellen Grove', call it 'Forest Lake' perhaps as that would be the suburb it would be located and is the nearest activity centre.

But calling it 'Forest Lake' could be confusing if all the buses from Forest Lake actually use Richlands. All in all, I don't think the name of the station is overly important, so long as it is identifiable.

Quote from: mufreight on October 23, 2011, 12:58:30 PM

Quote from: Gazza on October 23, 2011, 12:28:34 PM
I think Ormeau is a special case because its the only station in a long stretch, and its an interurban service. But Richlands is quite close to Ellen Grove, so why bother at this time?

It would actually cost taxpayers less to get a private company to build the station as part of a full redevelopment plan for the area, which doesn't exist yet.

Sorry Gazza but with parking at Richlands already at full capacity and the level of congestion on the Centenary Highway bordering on parking lot your argument stinks.
The Translink approach of do as little as possible and hope the problem goes away or someone else will pay to fix it has already proven to be failed hence the current mess that public transport particularly rail presently finds itself in.
A large number of those who currently commute by car from Forest Lake to Richlands station would use EllenGrove freeing up spaces at Richlands allowing those who currently drive to Richlands and on finding that they are unable to get a park there then continue their commute by car adding to the congestion on the Centenary Highway.
As for cost of constructing the station at EllenGrove now as against constructing it a further five or ten years time built as a greenfield project the costs would be less that 2 thirds that of building the same station brownfield on an in service rail link then add the additional costs of inflation.
Either this government is serious about public transport or it is not, seemingly from the manner in which infrastructure is half built at double the cost of doing the entire project properly allowing for the obvious future demand growth there is little actual interest or intent.
Glossy brocures and reports of what we might do (but probably will not anyway) in fifteen or twenty years no longer hold any credibility.

I agree with mufreight's sensible argument.

I still think that adding another level to the Richlands car park (200-300 spaces) would be cheaper than building a whole new station and bus interchange.

Quote from: Gazza on October 26, 2011, 21:40:28 PM
I still think that adding another level to the Richlands car park (200-300 spaces) would be cheaper than building a whole new station and bus interchange.

Possibly, but then you have to look at long term gains/losses.

Quote from: Gazza on October 26, 2011, 21:40:28 PM
I still think that adding another level to the Richlands car park (200-300 spaces) would be cheaper than building a whole new station and bus interchange.

Oh the urban design nightmare continues!!! Plaza? Village Green?

^Well, I'm not advocating they do it on new land.

Richlands opened January. This announcement in late Oct, ten months on. I thought there was a commitment at the time that the same alliance that built to Richlands would, instead of packing up, immediately continue and remove site re-establishment costs? A ten month gap means momentum has been lost.

What sounded great in theory did not happen in practice. This is a shame and another mislead of the public.

Of course we are grateful the line is being built now, but the delay must be scrutinised and be held accountable. Ten months is ten months.

Springfield has been delayed a few times. It was split into stage one - Darra to Richlands, and now stage two - Richlands to Springfield.

At the completion of stage one, tendering and so forth was confirmed for stage two (Feb 2011).  Trackstar were successful and now project is officially under way, although much was done from February including geotechnical investigations and survey works.

more --> http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/7d05eb6c-512b-42ef-8af1-2f2f52f3fd7e/richlandstospringfieldnewsletterjuly2011.pdf

-->  http://www.trackstar.com.au/

Sigh.  With a genuine "green light", Trackstar could have been well on their way to Landsborough by now.

Quote from: colinw on November 17, 2011, 11:03:58 AM
Sigh.  With a genuine "green light", Trackstar could have been well on their way to Landsborough by now.

Yep - the site compound at Beerburrum was almost midway between Caboolture and Landsborough.

Facepalm.

QuoteHi Gavin,


Thank you for your enquiry regarding the Stage 2 Richlands to Springfield Project.


In regards to train services to Springfield Central Station TransLink will work with Queensland Rail, local bus operators and the community to provide integrated bus and train services before the rail line opens.


At this point in time there are no set train frequencies. Closer to project completion this information should be available.


If you have any further enquiries please feel free to contact the project on the details below.


Many thanks,


Community Liaison Team





Web: www.trackstar.com.au


Community Enquiries

Phone: 1800 067 684 (Freecall, higher rates from mobiles and pay phones)

Email: info@trackstar.com.au





From: Gavin Seipelt [mailto
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2011 10:26 AM
To: R TS Info
Subject: Frequency to Springfield?


Hi,

I was just writing to enquire, but when the extension to Springfield Central opens, how frequently will trains run, both in peak hours, offpeak, and on weekends?


Regards

Gavin Seipelt

That isn't a question I would have expected Trackstar to be able to answer, or even interested in answering.  But definitely worth raising at a future PTAG meeting, or directing at the minister or Translink.

LOL. Of course they know what frequency is modelled in, they would have had to do that information before they built the railway to see what the impact would be on the broader network.

Who want's to guess that it will be 30 minutes!

Have to say though, I was impressed with my trip on the Richlands line recently. Speedy and fast just like the Gold Coast line.

Perhaps they should delete every 2nd or third train station from the Ipswich Line and Beenleigh lines to speed things up...

Quote from: tramtrain on November 18, 2011, 13:49:51 PM
LOL. Of course they know what frequency is modelled in, they would have had to do that information before they built the railway to see what the impact would be on the broader network.

Who want's to guess that it will be 30 minutes!

Have to say though, I was impressed with my trip on the Richlands line recently. Speedy and fast just like the Gold Coast line.

Perhaps they should delete every 2nd or third train station from the Ipswich Line and Beenleigh lines to speed things up...

I'd LOVE to run around zapping stations like Rocklea, but have been thoroughly flamed in the past for suggesting such things.

One of the disappointments from the Salisbury to Kuraby triplication was that the existing stations were retained.  I would have liked to have seen Banoon & Sunnybank merged to one, ditto Fruitgrove & Runcorn.

Who should I contact?