RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Some photographs from a journey to Lota today. 

Buranda





Approach to Lota - single line Manly to Lota





Towards Thorneside - single line







Lota





Photographs R Dow 24th September 2010

From the Wynnum Herald 22nd September 2010 page 4

Express linked to Manly Line Upgrade: Cleveland Manly duplication tipped

QuoteExpress linked to Manly LINE UPGRADE: CLEVELAND MANLY DUPLICATION TIPPED
BIANCA SULLIVAN

BAYSIDERS are expected to get a slice of the $123 billion Connecting SE Q 2031 project. While the plan is Premier Anna Bligh's 20-year vision and a promise of the upcoming state election, the Cleveland railway line is earmarked for a line duplication from Manly to Cleveland.

This would include ExpressLink train services from Cleveland running all stops to Manly before travelling express to inner Brisbane seven days a week.

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan would not commit to a timeframe for the bayside section of the project, but she announced the delivery of the Cross River Rail tunnel last week. Rail Back on Track secretary Robert Dow said the announcement meant local commuters could expect the line duplication sooner than anticipated "We are looking at 2015/16 for the Cross River Rail tunnel and we would like to see the Cleveland duplication brought forward either built before or run concurrently with the tunnel," he said "There will be bidirectional signalling so trains can run on one line.

"The Cleveland line has become an important commuter line and it needs major station upgrades all the way through. (The duplication) is certainly overdue."

A spokesman for Ms Nolan told the Herald last week that under the new project Cleveland rail-goers could expect to arrive in the city within 45 minutes.

Frequencies would be also be doubled with trains departing stations every 15 minutes, off peak.

"A long-term vision is important because it takes a long time to take projects from idea to reality," the spokesman said.

However, he also added each aspect of the project in the plan was not "fully funded" and the state would seek additional funding from other levels of government. Opposition Leader John-Paul Langbroek condemned the draft plan saying it was not "intended to be fully funded" with no detailed cost estimates sought.

Member for Lytton Paul Lucas welcomed the transport investment.

Quote
"The Cleveland line has become an important commuter line and it needs major station upgrades all the way through. (The duplication) is certainly overdue."

A spokesman for Ms Nolan told the Herald last week that under the new project Cleveland rail-goers could expect to arrive in the city within 45 minutes.

Frequencies would be also be doubled with trains departing stations every 15 minutes, off peak.

Hallelujah !!!  

Will this mean new stations and new interchanges?

Quote from: tramtrain on September 24, 2010, 12:23:46 PM

Quote
"The Cleveland line has become an important commuter line and it needs major station upgrades all the way through. (The duplication) is certainly overdue."

A spokesman for Ms Nolan told the Herald last week that under the new project Cleveland rail-goers could expect to arrive in the city within 45 minutes.

Frequencies would be also be doubled with trains departing stations every 15 minutes, off peak.

Hallelujah !!!  





Will this mean new stations and new interchanges?

OMG duplication by 2016.....no way just spin

I wonder if the new stations will support 9 car trains?

IMHO there was lot said that feeding buses into the rail system will overload it during peak hour (doesn't seem to happen in Perth though). Obvious solution is to simply upgrade rail. Other cities manage to carry tougher loads in peak.

Though I wonder if it would be cheaper to simply extend the platform and pay a one off capital cost, than run buses all the way into the CBD, day in, day out over the course of 30 - 50 years...

It's starting to look like the SEQ 2031 plan is a genuine plan and that things will get moving.
But solutions requiring "concrete" take a while to plan and pay for; are there any quicker "soft" solutions like more trains
but terminating along the line earlier?

  Currently wondering if Many could have another temporary platform built and then allow 15 minute frequency to the CBD as a stop-gap measure...

Quote
Transport Minister Rachel Nolan would not commit to a timeframe for the bayside section of the project, but she announced the delivery of the Cross River Rail tunnel last week. Rail Back on Track secretary Robert Dow said the announcement meant local commuters could expect the line duplication sooner than anticipated "We are looking at 2015/16 for the Cross River Rail tunnel and we would like to see the Cleveland duplication brought forward either built before or run concurrently with the tunnel," he said "There will be bidirectional signalling so trains can run on one line.

This is probably because with all the Beenleigh and Gold Coast lines going into the tunnel, service frequency at stations such as South Bank, South Brisbane look likely to drop back to just a train every 30 minutes off peak if this is not done... ouch!!!

Side issue but I went for a walk around Buranda this morning.  This general area is very very well served by public transport.  I wonder how long before we see major residential development?  With the busway and the rail station there is much that can be done.  A lot of wasted lots around, vacant and dumpy ...

Quote from: tramtrain on September 24, 2010, 12:45:14 PM

Quote
Transport Minister Rachel Nolan would not commit to a timeframe for the bayside section of the project, but she announced the delivery of the Cross River Rail tunnel last week. Rail Back on Track secretary Robert Dow said the announcement meant local commuters could expect the line duplication sooner than anticipated "We are looking at 2015/16 for the Cross River Rail tunnel and we would like to see the Cleveland duplication brought forward either built before or run concurrently with the tunnel," he said "There will be bidirectional signalling so trains can run on one line.

This is probably because with all the Beenleigh and Gold Coast lines going into the tunnel, service frequency at stations such as South Bank, South Brisbane look likely to drop back to just a train every 30 minutes off peak if this is not done... ouch!!!

Yep.  And 15 minute frequency isn't very good either.  But so what?

I don't know, my eyes glaze over when ever I hear talk of new transport infrastructure in Brisbane.  Notice how there is no timeline on getting a 15 minute service to Manly, which is doable now.

Quote
I don't know, my eyes glaze over when ever I hear talk of new transport infrastructure in Brisbane.  Notice how there is no timeline on getting a 15 minute service to Manly, which is doable now.

What? 

Is it doable now? How?
That would be great if the could do that. Would it need any alterations to the station or tracks?

Quote from: tramtrain on September 24, 2010, 13:43:21 PM

Quote
I don't know, my eyes glaze over when ever I hear talk of new transport infrastructure in Brisbane.  Notice how there is no timeline on getting a 15 minute service to Manly, which is doable now.

Is it doable now? How?
That would be great if the could do that. Would it need any alterations to the station or tracks?

All the pointwork and signaling is in place AIUI.  Off peak, have it something like this:

Central depart	:18	:33	:48	:03
Manly	:01	:16	:31	:46
Cleveland arr	:20		:50
Cleveland depart	:52		:22
Manly	:13	:28	:43	:58
Central arr	:56	:11	:26	:41

Dwelling on either operating platform at Manly is possible on the above timetable.  Not sure if there is any safeworking limitations restricting this.  Also notice that the 12 minute dwell at Manly is about right.  If the dwell arrangements at Cleveland were to be changed and a return to the cross at Wellington Point rather than Thorneside, then a different timetable would need to be implemented.

In the peak, some of the Manly terminators may need to extend to Lota to use the second platform there.

Quote from: ozbob on September 24, 2010, 12:48:46 PM
Side issue but I went for a walk around Buranda this morning.  This general area is very very well served by public transport.  I wonder how long before we see major residential development?  With the busway and the rail station there is much that can be done.  A lot of wasted lots around, vacant and dumpy ...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=714864

QuoteAll the pointwork and signaling is in place AIUI.  Off peak, have it something like this:

Central depart   :18   :33   :48   :03
Manly             :01   :16   :31    :46
Cleveland arr   :20      :50   
Cleveland depart :52      :22
Manly   :13   :28   :43   :58
Central arr   :56   :11   :26   :41

Dwelling on either operating platform at Manly is possible on the above timetable.  Not sure if there is any safeworking limitations restricting this.  Also notice that the 12 minute dwell at Manly is about right.  If the dwell arrangements at Cleveland were to be changed and a return to the cross at Wellington Point rather than Thorneside, then a different timetable would need to be implemented.

In the peak, some of the Manly terminators may need to extend to Lota to use the second platform there.

This is a good idea. This is for all stops right?

Quote from: tramtrain on September 24, 2010, 19:37:44 PM
This is a good idea. This is for all stops right?

Correct.

I wouldn't exactly say it is out of the box thinking there though.

I would have to allow that the Cleveland line is so indirect that the patronage sensitivity to improved service is likely to be the lowest of any line.

Quote
I wouldn't exactly say it is out of the box thinking there though.

I would have to allow that the Cleveland line is so indirect that the patronage sensitivity to improved service is likely to be the lowest of any line.

Frequency, frequency, frequency. The introduction of UrbanLink trains will get around the speed issue by running express for most of the route. As O_128 pointed out in another thread, this is likely to reduce train times to Cleveland to 45 minutes.

From the Bayside Bulletin click here!

Cleveland railway line duplication needed now

QuoteCleveland railway line duplication needed now
22 Nov, 2010 12:00 AM

NEXT year will mark the 25th anniversary since the Redlands began a transformation in lifestyle and population growth with the rebirth of the rail link to Cleveland.

The new line from Thorneside, to Wellington Point, then Ormiston and on to Cleveland, followed the electrification of rail services to Thorneside in 1983. The line between Lota and Thorneside was restored the previous year, after closing in 1960.

The electrified rail service to Cleveland, completed in 1987, has been arguably the most significant infrastructure project in the Redlands in the past 30 years.

The ability to rebuild the railway was largely due to good planning by the post-1960s Redland Shire Council administration which kept the railway right-of-way land on which the new railway was built.

The intention of rebuilding the railway in the mid-1980s was that the line would be duplicated eventually and consequently, at that time, infrastructure of the line and some bridges were factored into the project.

Because the Cleveland line takes a circuitous route through Manly, Wynnum and Hemmant, travel times have always been long - between 52 minutes on a weekday express, 62 minutes for a non-express weekday trip and 64 minutes on weekends - to Brisbane Central. In fact, the time has actually increased over 23 years, not improved for commuters.

Time has actually caught up with all the good intentions and promises to duplicate line. While the concept is still on the government's agenda, the reality is that with tight finances and the growth patterns to the west of Brisbane, duplication of the Cleveland line is lower on the priority list than ever before.

Consider also that the Eastern Busway may take to 2026 to make it to Capalaba, the demand for rail line duplication may diminish considering the growth areas of the Redlands have moved closer to Capalaba.

As residents of Redlands, we cannot allow this line duplication to disappear off a realistic time frame.

If we are going to realise the full potential of the railway when it was reopened in 1986-87, we need to keep the rail duplication on the infrastructure agenda, and not let its timeline slip even more into the future.

The duplication is needed now to ensure the integrity of the CityTrain network and we must maintain the momentum so that this Cleveland rail project is delivered well below its current 2026 horizon.

Roughing times on line line can be drastically improved after my experience of 30 min trip from manly to central cut the fat

 

The seat of Cleveland is a marginal state electorate.  With an election possibly less than 12 months away, it may be time to step up pressure for greater efficiency and more frequent services on the Cleveland Line.  Clayfield is another marginal electorate -- and the upgrade of the Doomben Line would be a hot election issue there.  While it is held by the LNP, Glass House is another marginal electorate, and Labor may have plans to win it back.  So agitation for a Sunshine Coast Line upgrade would draw attention from the pollies in the lead-up to their judgement day.  Political minds are always sharply focussed in seats where the swing required is 2 percent or less.   

Media release 23 April 2011

SEQ: Call to duplicate Thorneside to Wellington Point railway

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers calls for the duplication of the Thorneside to Wellington Point railway line.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Track amplifications on the single service constricting line would transform the reliability of the train services to Cleveland.  No longer would a slightly late train cause the train controllers to choose whether to significantly delay it by missing its crossing point, or pass the baton of delays on to another train.  This is one of the most complained about limitations of our train network, it is disappointing that the Minister for Transport didn't pick up on it in a recent radio interview on 612 ABC Brisbane Radio (1).

"The Salisbury-Kuraby triplication project was done for $256m (2) which allowed an increase in peak frequency from what would otherwise have been achievable, and an increase in peak reliability.  This proposed duplication would allow similar improvements for the Cleveland line for significantly less expense. Local train stabling options need to be further considered as well."

References:

1. http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/2011/03/transport-minister-answers-your-questions.html?site=brisbane&program=612_breakfast

2. http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/NetworkServices/SEQIP/CompletedProjects/Pages/SalisburyKuraby.aspx

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2018/05/qrs-most-unreliable-service-728am-from.html

BrizCommuter: QR's most unreliable service - 7:28am from Manly?


Inadequate Cleveland Line infrastructure. Source: QR NAG 046.


Queensland Rail (QR), currently the worst rail operator in Oceania, is copping even more flak than usual from long suffering Cleveland Line users. This is due to the 7:28am from Manly to Shorncliffe running late and/or being expressed past stations on what seems like an almost daily basis. The reliability is so bad, that commuters are suggesting that QR should just remove it from the timetable instead of advertising a train that regularly omits stopping at stations. Regular excuses from QR include the rather obscure "congestion on the network".

Unfortunately, the lack of investment in infrastructure from successive governments has left the Cleveland Line with insufficient infrastructure to reliable run a peak train service. Between Manly and Cleveland the line is single track with passing places. This allows for a service in each direction every 15 minutes, but with little operating margin for late running before a delayed service delays services in the opposite direction. To add to the problem, there are only 2 tracks at Manly, where the additional "inner all stations" services start and terminate every 15 minutes. The train blocks a track during the turn-back at Manly, with minimal operating margin to allow for late running. Thus it is very easy for the Cleveland Line service to fall to pieces during the peak period, which can cause subsequent delays on other lines. A 3rd track and platform at Manly by 2012 was recommended in the the Inner City Rail Capacity Study (2008), but was never constructed.

Inadequate Cleveland Line infrastructure. Source: QR NAG 046.

With QR being obsessed by on-time running KPIs, and to avoid the knock on effect of late running services, QR will often run services express past stations that they are scheduled to stop at, much to the annoyance of commuters. It is unknown if there is a particular issue with the provision of the empty service that forms the 7:28am from Manly. QR's ongoing lack of driver #RailFail, lack of trains, and unreliable EMU trains are also not helping matters.

With a projected 10tph am peak service on the Cleveland Line when Cross River Rail opens in the mid-2020s, work needs to start soon to duplicate the single track sections of the Cleveland Line, and provide improved intermediate turn-back facilities for services that are not running all the way to/from Cleveland. More drivers and trains will also be required. The clock is ticking!

Quote from: ozbob on May 21, 2018, 07:24:58 AM
https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/998313431378771973

Managed to get in comments re the third platform at Manly and the need to duplicate the single line sooner than later certainly before 2024 too as well as a short discussion on why trains are altered to skip stations. 

Here is the interview with Craig Zonca, Rebecca Levingston ABC Radio Brisbane 21st May 2018

> here! MP3 9.2 MB

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/998405123331080192

Great interview!

Quote from: verbatim9 on May 21, 2018, 13:54:50 PM
Great interview!

Thanks.  Hope something starts to happen.  Been a while now ...   

I understand the Manly-Cleveland duplication is quite a large/expensive project with quite a few bridges etc along the way:

Ernest St, Manly (road over rail)
Hindes St, Lota (rail over road)
Lota Creek (rail over creek)
Tingalpa Creek (rail over creek)
Thorneside Rd, Thorneside (rail over road)
Charles St, Birkdale (rail over road)
Birkdale Rd, Birkdale (rail over road) - this is a pretty big one
Tarradarrapin Creek, Birkdale (rail over creek)
Bagden Rd, Birkdale (rail over road)
Main Rd, Weillington Point (road over rail)
Station St, Wellington Point (road over rail), but this appears to be already duplicated.
Sturgeon St, Ormiston (rail over road)
Wellington St, Ormiston (road over rail)
Gordon St, Ormiston (road over rail)

Apologies if this isn't 100% accurate, I just went off what I could see on satellite view on Google Maps.

So that's a total of 13 crossings (14 if you count Station St, Wellington Point, but it doesn't look like it needs it). I'm wondering how many of the road-over-rail crossing already have a facility for a second track beneath them. What I'm wondering is, would there be any benefit to a staged implementation, e.g. Wellington Point to Cleveland, which *looks* like there's room under the bridges for another track, and only has one rail over road bridge. Along with the Manly 3rd platform, would this offer any reliability improvements at all? And maybe Manly to Lota as well, as that doesn't involve any creek crossings and all the cost & complexity that comes with that.

Passing places at all stations and a 3rd track at Manly would increase frequency, but would still be unreliable. Anything other than dual tracks throughout and a conveniently located turn back track to short turn some services would be half-baked.

This duplication further strengthens the justification of Queensland Rail having full control of all its infrastructure and a return to a Queensland Rail civil engineering department to carry out infrastructure works such as the Cleveland line duplication and the Beerburum to Nambour realignment and duplication.
The minister should by now be well aware that TMR involvement with anything related to Queensland Rail is a disaster.

Quote from: mufreight on May 21, 2018, 18:17:18 PM
This duplication further strengthens the justification of Queensland Rail having full control of all its infrastructure and a return to a Queensland Rail civil engineering department to carry out infrastructure works such as the Cleveland line duplication and the Beerburum to Nambour realignment and duplication.
The minister should by now be well aware that TMR involvement with anything related to Queensland Rail is a disaster.

I'd like to see the Trackstar Alliance reunited. They did an excellent job on Corinda to Darra, Richlands to Springfield and Robina to Varsity Lakes.

Is duplication all the way to Cleveland really a high priority? Wouldn't it be possible to run a 15 minute all day service as far as Manly or Lota right now? I would think it would be a long time before a 15 minute all day service would go all the way to Cleveland.

Surely there are more important priorities, such as (off the top of my head):

* Cross River Rail (obviously)
* Duplication to Landsborough/Nambour
* Extension of the Springfield line
* New Port of Brisbane <-> Acacia Ridge freight line enabling three passenger-dedicated tracks into Park Road/CRR
* Trouts Road Line
* Flagstone Line
* Passenger services to Toowoomba
* CAMCOS line
* Second platform at Shorncliffe, enabling reliable 15 minute services all day

Quote from: OzGamer on May 22, 2018, 11:14:12 AM
Is duplication all the way to Cleveland really a high priority? Wouldn't it be possible to run a 15 minute all day service as far as Manly or Lota right now? I would think it would be a long time before a 15 minute all day service would go all the way to Cleveland.

Surely there are more important priorities, such as (off the top of my head):

* Cross River Rail (obviously)
* Duplication to Landsborough/Nambour
* Extension of the Springfield line
* New Port of Brisbane <-> Acacia Ridge freight line enabling three passenger-dedicated tracks into Park Road/CRR
* Trouts Road Line
* Flagstone Line
* Passenger services to Toowoomba
* CAMCOS line
* Second platform at Shorncliffe, enabling reliable 15 minute services all day

Really we need all of those and the Cleveland line duplication yesterday. We have fallen so far behind in the infrastructure stakes that only a massive amount of investment in multiple projects will get the rail network into an acceptable state.

Quote from: OzGamer on May 22, 2018, 11:14:12 AM
Is duplication all the way to Cleveland really a high priority? Wouldn't it be possible to run a 15 minute all day service as far as Manly or Lota right now? I would think it would be a long time before a 15 minute all day service would go all the way to Cleveland.

I'd think to have a reliable 15-minute service to Manly, you'd need more rolling stock, more train crew and probably a third platform at Manly for terminating trains.

Quote from: achiruel on May 22, 2018, 12:29:50 PM

Quote from: OzGamer on May 22, 2018, 11:14:12 AM
Is duplication all the way to Cleveland really a high priority? Wouldn't it be possible to run a 15 minute all day service as far as Manly or Lota right now? I would think it would be a long time before a 15 minute all day service would go all the way to Cleveland.

I'd think to have a reliable 15-minute service to Manly, you'd need more rolling stock, more train crew and probably a third platform at Manly for terminating trains.

Sure - so maybe those should be the priority. I would think duplication all the way to Cleveland would be a hugely expensive thing that should be lower down the list. A third terminating platform at Manly wouldn't be that expensive really. It could actually be the current northbound platform with a new platform where the stabling is now for through services towards the city.

The reason that the current 15-minute service to Cannon Hill doesn't extend further is because freight movements need to use both the dual gauge and up suburban tracks. The current 15 minute peak Cleveland line frequency shows that it is possible, just unreliable and limited to the peaks.

Both a third platform at Manly and two tracks to Cleveland need to be done, but there should also be an investigation into whether the capacity is available on the inner section (Buranda to Hemmant) and whether passing loops are required along the DG to allow trains to pass and remain clear of the Cleveland line to allow for passenger operations.

(All of this ignores any rollingstock & driver constraints.)

It should be relatively easy to build an 1800m freight passing loop somewhere east of Murrarie and to just disconnect the freight tracks from the Cleveland line altogether.  The question is where and who pays for it.

Sent to all outlets:

12th June 2018

Cleveland line woes  ...

Good Morning,

Last evening two successive inbound trains on the Cleveland line were altered to run express viz.  the 5.09pm Cleveland to Central ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1862.msg209868#msg209868 )  and the 5.24pm Cleveland to Central ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1862.msg209869#msg209869 ), both to run express (skip stations) from Morningside to Park Road.

We have calculated that passengers on the stations skipped would have to wait up 44 minutes for a train ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1862.msg209873#msg209873 ).  Hardly satisfactory is it, particularly as in late peak.  We call on Queensland Rail to exercise some better judgment when it comes to altering services and have better regard for the impact on passengers.

The Cleveland line suffers from prolonged infrastructure neglect.  A constrained station turnback point at Manly was recommended to have a third platform by 2012.  The single line section from Manly to Cleveland is an anachronism and contributes significantly to the disproportionate number of altered services on this line, continuing to frustrate passengers and turn them away from public transport. The timetable for the Cleveland line is unreliable with these constraints and needs urgent improvement.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

BrizCommuter: Cleveland Line - Brisbane's Misery Line
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2018/08/cleveland-line-brisbanes-misery-line.html

Quote from: BrizCommuter on August 06, 2018, 20:44:04 PM
BrizCommuter: Cleveland Line - Brisbane's Misery Line
https://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2018/08/cleveland-line-brisbanes-misery-line.html

welcome back!  Thanks, the Cleveland line is really a mess !!

Sent to all outlets &

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1026496378900340736

Hey Briz, you Ok if I put this blog up on our Facebook page?  I think it will go right off!  Be referenced back to your blog ..

Will be chatting on ABC Radio Brisbane Breakfast about some of the Cleveland line issues, ~ 7.20am this morning .. 

Quote from: ozbob on August 07, 2018, 05:03:26 AM
Hey Briz, you Ok if I put this blog up on our Facebook page?  I think it will go right off!  Be referenced back to your blog ..

No problems. Just a sporadic post, still in semi-hibernation whilst working on other projects.