RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Just install smart ticketing readers on Murray's coaches and Greyhound for trips to and from Brisbane and Toowoomba until fast rail is in operation. Even when fast rail is operational between Brisbane and Toowoomba the coaches could still retain the smart ticketing equipment and operate within the Translink Zones.

Plus having a transfer point at Ipswich wil just blow out overall trip times. This will not convert car trips to PT trips between Brisbane and Toowoomba either.

QuoteToowoomba Regional Rapid Bus Service (Concept Only)

Roma Street
Coronation Drive (probably near Wesley Hospital)
Toowong
Indooroopilly Shopping Centre
Jindalee
Mt Ommaney Centre
Booval
Ipswich
North Ispwich
Brassall

Marburg
Minden (small P&R)
Hatton Vale (small P&R)
Plainland (small P&R)
UQ Gatton/Gatton (details to be worked out)
Helidon (P&R)
Withcott (P&R)

James Street
Water Street (repurpose Water Street car park as P&R)
Grand Central Shopping Centre (terminus)

Just on this concept, does it need to make so many stops within Suburban Brisbane?

For example, for the needs of a passenger visiting Brisbane, what's at Jindalee that a passenger from Toowoomba would need to stop at. And that stop is only 2km from the previous proposed stop at Mt Ommaney. 2km stopping is quite close for a rapid service.

Likewise, what's at Booval?

Even Mt Ommaney I'd question. It's not like someone in Toowoomba is going to travel to Mt Ommaney to go shopping, since Toowomba has better stores than Mt Ommaney anway.

For a lot of these places, wouldn't you get off at a main hub, and then use another local bus to reach your final destination?

6 stops within Brisbane is probably a bit much thats all.

My thinking is that if you want to do a Truly fast bus service to Brisbane, then it would be staying on the Motorway the whole way, and possibly might make a single stop on the fringe for Rail access, at Goodna or something, where it is easy to get on and off the highway without delaying thru passengers.

And then if you want to provide more of a 'coverage' service for people that want to visit locations within Brisbane, this could be a bus that runs off the highway via Gatton and goes into Ipswich, and if people want to reach locations such as Booval, Indooroopilly, Toowong, Wesley Hospital etc, then change and use the rail system.

*************

The current Toowoomba coach service takes 1h 45 mins
https://www.murrays.com.au/express-services/toowoomba-brisbane-timetable

And this only stopping Roma St,  Goodna (on request), Plainland, UQ Gatton, Withcott and Toowoomba, so more or less as optimised as it could be.

Now, I know from doing some experimenting with Google maps, that driving through Brassal and Ipswich rather than bypassing it adds about 11 mins of driving time.

Similarly, going via Indooroopilly versus staying on the Western Freeway adds about 6 mins.

Note these figures are just if you drove that way, I havent accounted for stops, and any special manoeuvring if leaving the freeway to service a stop.

So adding extra deviations would make it take at least just over 2h 2m to reach Toowoomba, but perhaps closer to 2h 10m once you account for dwell times, and looping around to service certain stops.

Track speed is 100kph max depending where you are so your battery theory still doesn't hold charge.

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2023/1178-2023.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 1178
Asked on 10 October 2023

MR T WATTS ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS AND MINISTER FOR
DIGITIAL SERVICES (HON M BAILEY)

QUESTION:

With reference to the Toowoomba to Brisbane Passenger Rail Business Case, the website
currently reports that 'The Australian Government is considering the findings of the Strategic
Business Case, which will inform the next steps for the Project' and this was last updated in March
2022—
Will the Minister detail when the construction of the railway will begin in preparation for the 2032
Olympic Games?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Toowoomba North for the question.

Under the Inland Rail Bilateral Agreement, the Australian and Queensland governments have
partnered to deliver the Toowoomba to Brisbane Passenger Rail Strategic Business Case to
determine the need, timing, and potential solutions for passenger rail requirements in the
Toowoomba to Brisbane corridor. This study has been wholly funded by the Australian
Government.

During the study's development, the Department of Transport and Main Roads (TMR) has led
technical investigations and engaged with key stakeholders—including local governments within
the study area—to capture local planning, economic, environmental, and social insights. The
Toowoomba to Brisbane Passenger Rail Strategic Business Case assumes the delivery of the
Australian Government's Inland Rail project.

TMR is working with the Australian Government to determine next steps for the project, following
an independent review of Inland Rail, which prioritises delivery of the Melbourne/Beveridge to
New South Wales/Parkes sections over the next four years.

The Australian Government is still considering the findings of the Strategic Business Case.

Given the view at the moment is to cut infrastructure projects, I can't see the federal government's response to the business case being a positive one.

Passenger rail to the Lockyer Valley is uncompetitive and unrealistic without a new tunnel through the Little Liverpool Range. Similar to Toowoomba without a new range railway.

... But we can't even get the resources or funding to have some sort of express bus service within the Translink fare structure.

It is at least somewhat nice to note the tone suggests the QLD Government knows Inland Rail in QLD is pretty much dead...

^^ I like the idea of a funding or incorporating regional express bus. V/Line coaches is an example.

 

People hate long distance buses I think it would only work with fares below $10.

We seem to often negotiate ourselves down on this platform but that's governments job. Our ideas and suggestions should be on the "foamy" side because that's what excites and engages people, it's governments job to come up with cheaper options if they want to do that and convince people the cheaper option is worthwhile/desirable enough. If we put forward dull options we're more likely to get nothing at all.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that I don't want this project built - Inland Rail or no Inland Rail. Living up on the Southern Downs, these are the sorts of connections our region up here at the top of the range should be advocating for.

We're a growing region - probably because housing is more affordable (at least outside Toowoomba City) - and the slow population declines of the latter part of the 20th Century have reversed in recent years.

But I'm also realistic about the fact that other larger and faster growing regions in South-East Queensland have woeful public transport and virtually non-existent rail... and (arguably) are in greater need in a system of constrained and finite financial resources going into public transport.

I would love to see (in my 'foamy' opinion), at minimum, the tunnel built through the Little Liverpool Range, which with some additional upgrades, would potentially unlock the system as far as Helidon where shuttle buses can finish the trip. Per the Inland Rail consultation maps, the Little Liverpool Range tunnel is 850m long (albeit with substantial embankment work on the approach) - much smaller and less complex than the main Toowoomba range tunnels and viaducts.

But I recognise that there is an affordable transport gap in the market now that a bus in the Translink fare structure could address. The Greyhound bus from Toowoomba to Brisbane starts at $35 for the most restrictive ticket type. The Crisps Coaches run from Warwick to Brisbane is $60. Options that halve that fare (or better) I think would be generally well-received if the buses are comfortable for a long journey and compete on travel time to private vehicle.

QuoteOur ideas and suggestions should be on the "foamy" side because that's what excites and engages people,

I would like to see a culture break from an infrastructure first mentality to a service first mindset. While the road lobby propose ever escalating high-cost long-lead time projects, PT solutions can come in underneath with really practical low-cost, fast-to-deliver alternatives.

Roads are infrastructure too, and the good thing about that is it's already there. It just now needs the service... 

The other thing is that many of these measures can be used as a stop-gap, interim, or transitional measure as well.

There's foamy and then there is some of the bs foam that gets sprayed around here that you can not take seriously. You can propose some foam but atleast be able to navigate through it.



Geebung maglev. Sherwood railway underpasses. I can't remember the reason why but there was also the corinda/sherwood duplication because google earth made it look like the corridor was wide enough when in reality the extra corridor gap meter age it was based on was because the view wasn't straight down and the angle of the sound barrier added extra room that wasn't even there. Toowoomba subway tunnel located on the floodplain through town.

The service first mentality vanished years ago when all the railway men were forced out and were replaced with yes management men. It's all about kpi/roi/cost benefits/lack of expenses/maintaining the status quo. Same with translink over the years with it being slowly dwindled away and merged into tmr who has their own problems with management. If anything service priority is the last thing on the list with political score points being the highest. More people use the Bruce Highway between Gympie and the Sunshine Coast. You could upgrade the rail line but you still end up at Nambour. More political influence and votes funding the highway upgrade. Then you have local businesses piggybacking off the same upgrades. And you end up in that same death spiral. Which comes back again to the railways being treated as a business rather than a service. Gone are the days of the QR FreightTrain/QRX (we won't mention QRX RoadRailer   but they were a thing) on the NCL. Gets picked up/dropped off and thrown onto an express train across the state. No express freight so no need to upgrade the line. Rinse and repeat.

Surely it would just be easier for DTMR to negotiate with Greyhound and/or Murrays to allow for a sub-fleet of accessible (DDA compliant) buses for a Brisbane-Toowoomba 'limited stops' express coach service.  Ticketing readers would have to be installed on that sub-fleet for such a service, and of course the "Ticket Readers" can be covered if any of those buses are required for longer distance (beyond Toowoomba) services.

Quote from: ArnzSurely it would just be easier for DTMR to negotiate with Greyhound and/or Murrays to allow for a sub-fleet of accessible (DDA compliant) buses for a Brisbane-Toowoomba 'limited stops' express coach service.

Good suggestion - could they be hand-held possibly?

V/Line has accessible coaches, and hold 'Try Before You Ride' open days so participants can try it out.




Try Before You Ride Ballarat
https://www.vline.com.au/News-Alerts/Archive/News-Articles/Try-Before-You-Ride-Ballarat

TMR do offer some subsidised routes with greyhound but normally longer distance ie longreach/emerald/toowoomba to Rocky, townsville/brisbane to mt isa and I think there's also Maryborough/widebay to Rocky or something.

How could this be staged?

Would be good if Toowoomba was included into Zone 6.
TL Zone 6 Peak $14.55 Off-Peak $11.64
TL Zone 7 Peak $18.10 Off-Peak $14.48

Stage 1: Incorporate & Drop the Coach Fares

Fare zone incorporation is at least a starting point, and could be delivered rapidly (6-12 months). It can be taken bundled at the same time with a timetable overhaul, but it doesn't necessarily have to. A commercial bus fare is about $35, so incorporating buses into the TL network would save about $20 or thereabouts. The funding could come from fares, QLD Gov, and contributions from Toowoomba Regional Council.

Stage 2: Regular and improved services

Next, introduce regular and additional timetabled Coach services, on a particular pattern. Any frequency suggestions?

Stage 1 is a very low and achievable bar. If the authorities (plural) don't fund it, then it would indicate they are also not keen on the larger & more expensive rail proposal either.

Service Design

We are looking at a 2-hour trip, approximately.

A decision would have to be made on where to operate the service from. There is potential to operate the service either directly from Roma Street, or from Ipswich via a connection. Direct from Roma Street would be about 20 min faster once the need to have some padding for a transfer wait is considered.

Notes

Translink SEQ fare zones
https://translink.widen.net/s/5wfnjq8tkx/230109-seq-fare-zone

Baseline car trip times
Roma Street to Toowoomba via Coro Drive - 1 hour 40 minutes (100 min)
Ipswich to Toowoomba - 1 hour 5 minutes (65 minutes)
Train to Ipswich - 56 minutes (assume express trains are 8 minutes faster)

Potential for an Ipswich Exp Train (48 minutes) + Coach (65 minutes) = 113 minutes, add in 10 min transfer time - 123 minutes.

I was interviewed earlier today by Steve Austin Host Drive ABC Brisbane Radio re Fast Rail with specific mention of Toowoomba and Sunshine Coast. Should be in this afternoon's show.

Quote from: ozbob on November 28, 2023, 15:10:27 PMI was interviewed earlier today by Steve Austin Host Drive ABC Brisbane Radio re Fast Rail with specific mention of Toowoomba and Sunshine Coast. Should be in this afternoon's show.

Interview 28 Nov 2023 ABC Radio Brisbane Drive Host Steve Austin with Robert Dow RBoT discuss fast rail for regional Queensland.

Here --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_sa_rd_28nov23.mp3 MP3  10.0 MB

https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14500.msg278466#msg278466

^^Overhead electrification is the best way forward as countries abandoned hybrid and hydrogen trials.

We can take an example from Malaysia as they have done a good job with electrification from Kuala Lumpur down to the Singapore boarder.

It has improved overall capacity for both freight and passenger services at the same time. I believe that freight will be hauled with electric locomotives as well.

It's time to electrify freight from the Wellcamp interchange to the Port of Brisbane now as well as construct electric passenger rail to and from Toowoomba to meet our 75% in carbon reductions by 2035.

I rather see two tracks to Toowoomba rather than 8 lanes of freeway TBH.

They could also build Active transport links alongside the proposed rail to Toowoomba. This could provide a new tourism generator for the area as well as provide active transport links for locals around the area.

Not going to happen. No passenger train traffic to Toowoomba (outside of the westy), freight doesn't exist (if it was a priority CP also offers BNE cargo services), coal comes from beyond Toowoomba and grain also comes from beyond Toowoomba. These operators will continue diesel ops instead of paying ohle access fees. Transit time will be faster as they don't have to change locos/provisioning. These operators don't have electric locos. Aurizon does but they aren't certified and are out of gauge for the western line. 3900 that used to run freight on the ncl have been scrapped, converted to coal operations as 3550's or are being stripped for spares. Western line beyond rosewood is uneconomical to have ohle provisions.

Apply the PT Pyramid Principles.

Just incorporate the existing private buses to Toowoomba into the Translink network and charge Translink fare levels as the first step in a series of steps to ultimately better PT service for Toowoomba.

This requires no new buses, no new infrastructure, no new services... just some operational funding, which in principle could be shared with Toowoomba Regional Council.

It's a 'minimum viable product' approach that could be done relatively quickly. It is also a change that can easily be reversed.

If they won't support this... 

It would not be a great outcome if TMR were to produce an expensive report suggesting Toowoomba could have Translink train services in ~ 2070 or thereabouts for billions and a big nothing gap until then.

Something sooner would be desirable.

   

Quote from: #Metro on December 18, 2023, 21:27:19 PMApply the PT Pyramid Principles.

Just incorporate the existing private buses to Toowoomba into the Translink network and charge Translink fare levels as the first step in a series of steps to ultimately better PT service for Toowoomba.

This requires no new buses, no new infrastructure, no new services... just some operational funding, which in principle could be shared with Toowoomba Regional Council.

It's a 'minimum viable product' approach that could be done relatively quickly. It is also a change that can easily be reversed.

If they won't support this... 

It would not be a great outcome if TMR were to produce an expensive report suggesting Toowoomba could have train services in ~ 2070 or thereabouts.

Something sooner would be desirable.

   

Apparently, the business case will be released in 2025 for electrification to Toowoomba and later Wellcamp.

Quote from: #Metro on December 18, 2023, 21:27:19 PMApply the PT Pyramid Principles.

Just incorporate the existing private buses to Toowoomba into the Translink network and charge Translink fare levels as the first step in a series of steps to ultimately better PT service for Toowoomba.

This requires no new buses, no new infrastructure, no new services... just some operational funding, which in principle could be shared with Toowoomba Regional Council.

It's a 'minimum viable product' approach that could be done relatively quickly. It is also a change that can easily be reversed.

Not all of the Toowoomba services on Greyhound and Murrays terminate at Toowoomba, some continue out West to the outback towns (The Beyond Toowoomba services are subsidised by the Queensland Government under a different arrangement), as well as the daily services that continue south of the Border towards Sydney via Western NSW.

Whilst theoretically you could "restrict" TransLink funded services to the Toowoomba terminators, it would ultimately be confusing to the standard PT user, as the services continuing beyond Toowoomba require pre-bookings in advance (whereas Toowoomba terminators can be purchased on the day online or at the ticket office).

Quote from: verbatim9 on December 18, 2023, 21:31:21 PM

Quote from: #Metro on December 18, 2023, 21:27:19 PMApply the PT Pyramid Principles.

Just incorporate the existing private buses to Toowoomba into the Translink network and charge Translink fare levels as the first step in a series of steps to ultimately better PT service for Toowoomba.

This requires no new buses, no new infrastructure, no new services... just some operational funding, which in principle could be shared with Toowoomba Regional Council.

It's a 'minimum viable product' approach that could be done relatively quickly. It is also a change that can easily be reversed.

If they won't support this... 

It would not be a great outcome if TMR were to produce an expensive report suggesting Toowoomba could have train services in ~ 2070 or thereabouts.

Something sooner would be desirable.

   

Apparently, the business case will be released in 2025 for electrification to Toowoomba and later Wellcamp.

Wont be a good one. And not without inland rail paying for a lot. Ohle isn't supported and tunnels can't be modified. Pantos can not physically run through the tunnels. They/whoever you keep referring to can do all the business cases they want but if the panto is going to be ripped off then you aren't running any electrics on the line. They've already lowered the floors and the bulk of network traffic doesn't support electric trains. QR has also previously ruled out ohle mods as it's financially uneconomical and unviable to do without increasing access fees in which they expect freight services returning back to road haulage. The state is already subsidising access fees on the western line to maintain rail traffic numbers. Without a large increase in traffic and it has to be quite large so more than just pacific national running trains (which btw was a contract based on inland rail going through) has to be on the line. Having ohle on the western line is just foam.

https://x.com/Jeffrey_Addison/status/1770786201449992441?s=20

Toowoomba to Brisbane Passenger Rail

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/toowoomba-to-brisbane-passenger-rail-strategic-business-case

Current status

The Australian and Queensland governments have finalised the Strategic Business Case which included the first 2 stages of the Queensland Government's Project Assessment Framework, namely the Strategic Assessment of Service Requirements and Preliminary Evaluation. 

The Toowoomba to Brisbane Passenger Rail Summary Report outlines the finding of the Strategic Business Case and next steps.

Report > https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/_/media/c9d86df828a3472d916ecf0dcdf9283f.pdf?rev=d88aaf076c1144878369db29ec906e31&sc_lang=en&hash=E34DAABB48D7478BDAB9F86A0BAFBACB

Facebook ...

Key takeways are a 130min journey time to Toowoomba, using a mix of QR and Inland Rail infrastructure, 18 services per day for 4000 expected pax per day.

Overall its on the right way of thinking, but I think the map showing it going via Grantham, and Helidon is a bit dumb, its an uncessary deviation for a small number of pax, and you'd be better off sticking on inland rail the whole way, perhaps with a new station on the new alignment at "Helidon North".

And of course, its proposing to use the existing network, so already it will take 1h 10 mins to get from Rosewood to Roma St, so an hour to Get from Rosewood to Toowoomba is probably "not bad"

Quote from: Gazza on October 03, 2024, 11:55:48 AMOverall its on the right way of thinking, but I think the map showing it going via Grantham, and Helidon is a bit dumb, its an uncessary deviation for a small number of pax, and you'd be better off sticking on inland rail the whole way, perhaps with a new station on the new alignment at "Helidon North".[/attach]

Would the inclusion of regular rail services to Grantham and Helidon encourage further development of those areas, which would result in an increase in potential pax (a chicken and egg scenario). I know that the original plans for the reconstruction of Grantham proposed a lot more development than what has occurred to date (judging by aerial imagery).

0% Surprised this is the outcome. I'm a little disappointed option 1 isn't being considered as an interim option given Inland Rail likely won't materialise in QLD until 2035, or even later. But of course that means new rolling stock, as I doubt there's a spare set of L series carriages hovering around (and their retirement is impending in a few years).

Based on my personal (albeit infrequent) observations, 2900 series locos are stowed at Toowoomba and could be used for this purpose though. There's also at least one operational 2000 series railmotor at DownsSteam in Drayton 

QuoteWould the inclusion of regular rail services to Grantham and Helidon encourage further development of those areas, which would result in an increase in potential pax (a chicken and egg scenario). I know that the original plans for the reconstruction of Grantham proposed a lot more development than what has occurred to date (judging by aerial imagery).

What's the point?
Just develop Toowoomba or Gatton and Laidley and leverage the government services in those towns instead of sprawl/acerage on productive farmland or floodplain.

In particular, if you were to develop anywhere greenfields, it should probably be around Gowrie / the proposed Toowoomba North station and expand in that direction.

Looks good and they should aim for stage 1 to be completed in the early 2030s.

18 services a day may equate to services every 90 mins with services every 45 mins during peak. It could also equate to services running every 60 mins? Operating hours from 0500 - midnight across 7 days?

Quote from: verbatim9 on October 03, 2024, 17:21:52 PM18 services a day may equate to services every 90 mins with services every 45 mins during peak. It could also equate to services running every 60 mins? Operating hours from 0500 - midnight across 7 days?

It would be infinitely better than Gympie North 

Quote from: Redrient on October 03, 2024, 12:42:31 PM0% Surprised this is the outcome. I'm a little disappointed option 1 isn't being considered as an interim option given Inland Rail likely won't materialise in QLD until 2035, or even later. But of course that means new rolling stock, as I doubt there's a spare set of L series carriages hovering around (and their retirement is impending in a few years).

Based on my personal (albeit infrequent) observations, 2900 series locos are stowed at Toowoomba and could be used for this purpose though. There's also at least one operational 2000 series railmotor at DownsSteam in Drayton 

Yes and no. 2900's do the westy but they also swap locos with 1x/2x 2400's when they change ends at Toowoomba station (west of Toowoomba you can have 1x2400 providing the service). So they can end up doing more tuition/mtce work. When they return to Brisbane they can also be thrown onto the SOTO. If anything if you want something done on the cheap expect a 2900/2400 and some new carriages. You can do this on the cheap with the carriages as they don't have the same mtce costs as a DMU would have. You could then refurbish them for the traveltrain network when they are replaced with a DMU. But don't expect a crazy frequency and don't expect to see the Westlander kicking around.

To be honest nothing is going to happen for 10-15 years and if you think something will then you are delusional. The sample document doesn't really tell you anything. The mining plans had better details than this. The state won't commit to any new rollingstock as infrastructure is not known and they won't commit to any new mtce facilities for similar reasons. No different than the QTMP plans and no provisions for increased fleet numbers for a potential Beaudesert line (shows how much belief the state had in inland rail at the time before it was "delayed"). And if you compare it to Gympie just remember plans from  around the same time as the Grandchester study was done there were already plans to upgrade the line to take over 90 minutes out of Caboolture-Gympie (so far we've got Caboolture-Beerburrum upgraded )

Well said! The transport priorities in QLD are well and truly focused on MOAR ROADS!!

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on October 03, 2024, 23:29:38 PMTo be honest nothing is going to happen for 10-15 years

Given the weight of history, I of course have low-to-no expectations of anything really materialising for a real Toowoomba public transport connection unless Inland Rail exists. As you say, one would have to be delusional to seriously think such a thing would happen  .

4,000 passengers/day does sound a bit low to me, when considering the population of Toowoomba, volume of daily traffic on the Warrego, increasing population catchment around Laidley (albeit north of the highway) and a university that could become commutable from the Ipswich region. Maybe they think everyone will just keep driving; which is probably a fair assumption when both major sides of the political fence are focused on roads, roads and more roads.

That's probably around 1 million passengers per annum, which for a 90 minute headway and for what is a very dispersed population doesn't sound off to me. 

I think there was some estimation done by myself in the past based on other lines and that 1 million/year figure is about right.

Improving the coaches going to and from Toowoomba would be a first start. Both Vic and NSW have extensive country coach services.

Quote from: SurfRail on October 04, 2024, 08:14:12 AMThat's probably around 1 million passengers per annum, which for a 90 minute headway and for what is a very dispersed population doesn't sound off to me. 

Gratefully accepted