RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 14, 2024, 19:54:27 PMIt's bad policy as now people living within Brisbane will be subsiding those who live out further even more.

Yep. Cheaper fares are good policy. Flat fares are not, at least not in a region like SEQ.

Even if the 50c fare trial ends exactly as scheduled, I'd be very surprised if in 4 years time we still have a sensible fare structure. The ship has sailed, and both major parties will be happy to pander to outer-suburban marginal seats at the expense of everyone else.

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 14, 2024, 20:50:52 PMPlus everyone knows that providing PT to outer areas costs more than inner areas. This has always been the argument  from the Labor Government of not providing more services to those areas.

I'm pretty sure they have never, ever explicitly said that.

However, every new milk run being presented as a political announcement shows how broken the situation is. The announcements are an admission Translink's being starved of the funding to do their job, but spinning it as a favour to X suburb that [Premier] [Party] Government has found a few dollars to fix it. How about: don't actively prevent minimum service targets being met so you can "fix it" at a politically convenient time, just fund public transport adequately, then give Translink the coverage targets and let them figure it out like 20 years ago.

Couriermail --> Premier: 50 cent transport fares here to stay if Labor wins state election $

QuoteThe state government will make 50 cent fares permanent if it retains office in October after public transport patronage soared by nearly three million trips across Queensland in just five weeks.

In what was supposed to be a six-month "use it or lose it" trial to encourage Queenslanders back onto public transport, Premier Steven Miles says patron numbers have already hit record high levels in both regional and metropolitan areas, justifying a permanent discount ...

... The patronage boost, he says, will also help Translink expand services, should it become an independent transport authority after October.

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1834930485681692757

Sent to all outlets:

Fifty cent fares - permanent ?

14th September 2024

Greetings,

RAIL Back On Track notes the Premier's  commitment to make 50 cent fares permanent if Labor retains office after the October State election.
[ Couriermail --> Premier: 50 cent transport fares here to stay if Labor wins state election https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/premier-50-cent-transport-fares-here-to-stay-if-labor-wins-state-election/news-story/baca6d66d727c784efd7a68037b99487  ]

Our principle concern with this is that it may lead to a lack of funding for public transport service improvements throughout Queensland.  Fifty cent fares are fine if there is a bus to catch!

We do note, and particularly welcome however the comment by the Premier "The patronage boost, he says, will also help Translink expand services, should it become an independent transport authority after October". 

The Policy to set up an Independent transport authority is in our eyes a very significant policy for the future of public transport throughout Queensland. 

See RAIL Back On Track media 7th August 2024  "The best news! Re: State Government commitment to make Translink an Independent Authority welcomed!"  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=286183

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Facebook ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1835065918986281451

As long as it doesn't lead to cuts and instead focus on the need to fix network/public transport then it's a good thing! Why do we care what is charged of the above hold true! Makes public transport just like roads mostly free

My friend Ben M has a theory of change re service improvements, which is that ultra-cheap fares get more people onto the service and then improving service becomes a political imperative just like widening roads is today.

I don't necessarily agree with him on that considering the amount we're spending on fare subsidy could pay for *so much* extra service (and of course that PT is capable of at least getting close to break-even, which makes service expansion relatively cheap to the Treasury).

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/premier-50-cent-transport-fares-here-to-stay-if-labor-wins-state-election/news-story/baca6d66d727c784efd7a68037b99487

Quote... This morning, Opposition Leader David Crisafulli also promised to keep the fares permanent in he's elected.

At a press conference on Sunday, Mr Crisafulli said he had a place to make sure they could increase frequency, reliability and safety for regional Queenslanders and those in outer Brisbane areas.

"When we when we listen to Queenslanders, they like the 50 cent fares," he said.

"What they want to see is greater frequency and reliability and safety, particularly in the outer areas and in those regional areas.

Mr Crisafulli said using the current governments figures it would cost $150 million in the first six months. ...

" ... This morning, Opposition Leader David Crisafulli also promised
to keep the fares permanent in he's elected. ... "

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1835132546168111319

Sent to all outlets:

Re: Fifty cent fares - permanent ?

Greetings,

Fifty cent fares are here to stay!

" ... This morning, Opposition Leader David Crisafulli also promised
to keep the fares permanent in he's elected. ... "

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/premier-50-cent-transport-fares-here-to-stay-if-labor-wins-state-election/news-story/baca6d66d727c784efd7a68037b99487

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Quote from: ozbob on September 14, 2024, 22:38:47 PMSent to all outlets:

Fifty cent fares - permanent ?

14th September 2024

Greetings,

RAIL Back On Track notes the Premier's  commitment to make 50 cent fares permanent if Labor retains office after the October State election.
[ Couriermail --> Premier: 50 cent transport fares here to stay if Labor wins state election https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/premier-50-cent-transport-fares-here-to-stay-if-labor-wins-state-election/news-story/baca6d66d727c784efd7a68037b99487  ]

Our principle concern with this is that it may lead to a lack of funding for public transport service improvements throughout Queensland.  Fifty cent fares are fine if there is a bus to catch!

We do note, and particularly welcome however the comment by the Premier "The patronage boost, he says, will also help Translink expand services, should it become an independent transport authority after October". 

The Policy to set up an Independent transport authority is in our eyes a very significant policy for the future of public transport throughout Queensland. 

See RAIL Back On Track media 7th August 2024  "The best news! Re: State Government commitment to make Translink an Independent Authority welcomed!"  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=286183

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

I still don't agree with this fare farce despite the LNP agreeing to keep it.


Also, I can't see it staying when Cross River is commissioned though.

It's better to have distance based ticketing with daily, weekly as well as weekend and public holiday caps of 5-10 dollars.

Plus, a commuter should be able to start their 7 day weekly cap on any nominated day not just Mondays. In Auckland people can nominate and change their first day of their weekly cap to suit their lifestyle and work patterns.

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1835159990879097051

Resistance is futile, we have arrived in the ... 

I don't agree with the policy, that's $300 million not being spent on actual PT services.

It's coming out of the annual operating budget, the same budget used to fund services.

I expect some routes might get upgrades but will cause a freeze on service upgrades over time to compensate.

Agree or not agree.  The fact is it is here for the foreseeable future. 

We must guard against service improvement stagnation.

Both Miles and Crisafulli have been out talking service improvements today, particularly out from inner Brisbane and Regional.  Time will tell.

In recent weeks I've been impressed with how successful 50c fares have been. Each week I see more people on PT when I am using it. While there's still plenty of traffic I'm certain that in the Northern suburbs where I am traffic is improved.

We desperately need better service yes but Road's keep improving despite rates/tolls coming nowhere near covering the cost and more money keeps being spent so this does not have to mean anything to service levels. All of us here know that PT is a public good, buses will always move more people more efficiently than cars and trains will always far exceed that again.

One of the main problems in car centric cities like ours is ordinary people view public transport as not benefitting them. With 50c fares were seeing a small psychological shift in SEQ with people at least thinking "can I use this?". I see some hope that keeping 50c fares will enable a continued shift in attitude as people seek to benefit from BERT and CRR.

The thing about patronage increases is that they need to be compared to something.

What is that something?

For many, it is the prior patronage level.

But doing this is to compare a $0 expenditure vs a potential $300 million one.

That tells us nothing about whether the $300 million is well spent.

A proper comparison looks at different ways to spend $300 million and asks did we pick the best one among alternatives?

That is what is missing from the Qld Government promotional material and media narratives. This omission makes it misleading IMO.

We also see this misleading by omission appear elsewhere. The Gympie Road tunnel information omits expected 1-hour peak traffic counts, giving a daily count instead. The effect of this is to conceal the count which would otherwise reveal the tunnel's low capacity.

It's a similar story with getting a number for time saved on the GC faster rail project, where the time saved is likely just ~ 5 min. They must have it because you need it for the project's BCR calculation.

All of this reflects very poorly, and is something they can fix.

You don't need $300 million spent to do a network review for the Northside. Don't need $300 million worth of infrastructure to tell you maybe there's a problem with Gympie road having 24bph at 10pm on Tuesday night. And that $300 million won't get you far considering it's all of Queensland and not just seq. Buz the magnetic island bus!!!

Couriermail --> Qld election 2024: LNP matches Labor's pledge of 50c public transport fares $

QuoteQueenslanders will continue to enjoy 50c public transport fares no matter who wins office with Opposition leader David Crisafulli vowing to match Premier Steven Miles' commitment to permanently extend the popular cost-of-living measure.

On Sunday, Mr Crisafulli announced he would keep 50c fares indefinitely while revealing a plan to make sure the Opposition could increase frequency, reliability and safety for regional Queenslanders and those in outer Brisbane.

It came hours after Mr Miles announced the heavily discounted fares would continue indefinitely across the state under his government.

The state government revealed the 50c initiative would cost $300m a year.

Transport and Main Roads data showed Queenslanders had saved more than $37m since the discount fares were introduced on August 5.

"When we listen to Queenslanders, they like the 50c fares," Mr Crisafulli said.

"What they want to see is greater frequency and reliability and safety, particularly in the outer areas and in those regional areas."

But Mr Miles said the LNP was desperate to win the election and would say or do anything. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1835323241361236084

Couriermail --> Editorial: Fair-go fares are transformational ... $

QuoteFifty cent fares may have a much greater impact than encouraging South East Queenslanders to get out of the house, writes the editor.

Back in May, when Premier Steven Miles announced his 50c public transport fare trial, this column welcomed the bold move, but also noted the desperate nature of another cash splash hot on the heels of the $1000 power bill handout.

As Deputy Opposition Leader Jarrod Bleijie pointed out at the time, "Queenslanders are supportive of the cost-of-living relief, but cynical that it runs out just after the election."

Now, despite the six-month trial having more than four months still to run, Mr Miles has decided to make it permanent. And, as has been the nature of Queensland politics in the lead-up to the election on October 26, David Crisafulli's LNP has quickly followed suit.

He could not have made any other decision. ...

ABC News --> Queensland government and LNP promise to make 50 cent public transport fares permanent

QuoteQueensland will benefit from cheaper public transport permanently, regardless of the outcome of the state election, after the "huge success" of its trial of 50 cent public transport fares.

Premier Steven Miles said on Sunday the government would keep 50 cent fares post-election, noting usage had surged past pre-pandemic levels.

The LNP said it would also retain the cheap fares should it take office.

"The best thing about this initiative is it saves Queenslanders more than it costs government because of all those extra people using public transport," Mr Miles said. ...

https://x.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1835230183726428167

Until the LNP say they can't afford it whilst announcing another billion dollar freeway widening

https://x.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1835231483755438270

Quote from: Jonno on September 16, 2024, 06:27:09 AMUntil the LNP say they can't afford it whilst announcing another billion dollar freeway widening

I can imagine them changing it to '50c per zone' or similar so it is still 50c fares.

I would have preferred something a bit less crazy - if we needed to have flat fares, then $2 would have been reasonable.  Would still have been dramatic fare relief for all passengers, and been accompanied by a commitment to improve services.  I don't see service improvement being talked about by anybody in either of the 2 major parties except to the extent it is tied to something expensive like CRR or Brisbane Metro.

^^ There could be service improvements driven through the Labor commitment to split Translink into an independent authority.

Obviously this isn't certain, just a 'maybe'.

sounds like our campaign for the State election.

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 14, 2024, 20:50:52 PMI feel it could also encourage more urban sprawl as well. It's actually counter productive and doesn't make overall economic sense.

Plus everyone knows that providing PT to outer areas costs more than inner areas. This has always been the argument  from the Labor Government of not providing more services to those areas.

So the inner city can have public transport, and everyone else can just get fuked? Good to know where your biases lie.

Quote from: SilverChased on September 16, 2024, 07:43:03 AMI can imagine them changing it to '50c per zone' or similar so it is still 50c fares.

This would have been good policy, and sort of what I hoped the LNP would announce - as it would maintain a sane fare structure while ensuring PT is affordable for everybody.

Quote from: SurfRail on September 16, 2024, 10:44:08 AMI would have preferred something a bit less crazy - if we needed to have flat fares, then $2 would have been reasonable.

I agree, but considering concession fares are gone (another poorly considered aspect of the "policy") even $2 is an increase for some people on some trips. And the higher you start the higher it will go up.
I don't believe for one second that 50c fares will stay in the long term. I do believe flat fares will stay once they're entrenched.

Quote from: aldonius on September 15, 2024, 09:36:00 AMMy friend Ben M has a theory of change re service improvements, which is that ultra-cheap fares get more people onto the service and then improving service becomes a political imperative just like widening roads is today.

I really hope this is true, and if we were talking a doubling of patronage then sure. But other examples around the world don't fill me with optimism. Good public transport is not something people ride for free (or "basically free").

This really is a big old disappointment, at the end of the day.

• The reason why people aren't using the 358 isn't because it is so expensive, it is because it is hourly, stops running at 6pm, and doesn't provide a decent connection to Strathpine station.
• The reason people aren't using the 746 isn't because it is so expensive, it is because it stops running at 4pm.
• The reason people don't use the 415 is because it runs every 75 minutes on Saturdays and 2-hourly on weekends.

Really this is short-sighted policy which is merely a re-arrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic which is SEQ's public transport system.

Disappointingly, the LNP has missed out on an opportunity to show leadership here and vow to spend the $300m gained annually from full fares to do actual good, like roll out 4tph across all lines from 6am - 11pm (where infrastructure allows), provide BUZ routes to Bulimba, the Centenary suburbs, the Northwest, Route 300 and right across the Gold & Sunshine Coasts.

That the LNP has matched the ALP really just reflects the sorry state of politics in this country. No conviction, no ideals, just promise now and ask questions later. (The only solace is that an LNP government is more likely to reverse this policy at a later date.)

Predictably, the Greens have come out and trumped Labor today, promising free fares and BUZ routes everywhere, and the idea of free fares doesn't sound so stupid when you cut the average 6-zone fare from $14.55 to $0.50.

It really is a sorry state of affairs. Anyway, back to my BCC bus conga line partyyyyy!

                     
Pictured above: Coronation Drive at 10pm at night
Not pictured: taxpayers asking if PT money is being spent wisely

I wish Translink would reduce the balance at which you get the low balance alert for go card. It's pretty annoying it getting it 5 times a day, when I have enough balance to last the whole week.

BTW, for those wondering about the trial's success, I'm currently on the earliest inbound Airport train ex Loganlea, and it's about 50% seated load.

A year ago, there would've been half this many people on the train. Lots of people in hi vis, so clearly it's not only office workers taking public transport.

I wonder if a fair few of them are CRR workers.

Sorry for the multiple posts, and hogging the thread, but I just wanted to mention that the first 302 ex Fortitude Valley this morning was close to a full seated load. Would've been half that a year ago.

Keep this up, and the 302 might need more services.

Edit: 7 standees on the 302 inbound this afternoon. Looks like low fares are definitely popular with the industrial workers!

A couple of times a week I head into the city from eagle junction in the evening to go to a restaurant. Prior to 50c fares I'd drive if I was heading in with my partner because it was cheaper to do that and they're not as excited to catch the train as I am.

Before 50c fares there would frequently be only 2 or 3 other people in the carriage but now they are 30% to 50% full.


My other evidence of change is that I work in Chermside and have to drive (I use my car through the day to visit clients) and the traffic is significantly better recently. There's still plenty of traffic but at least a 10%-15% drop.

Likewise. I'm torn because I started using public transport to get reliable transport times so I can pick them up from school and daycare. Now with 50c fares, there is less traffic
Public transport is cheaper though.

Brisbanetimes --> Have 50¢ fares reduced traffic in Brisbane? Yes and no $

QuoteTraffic has decreased on Brisbane's main roads following the introduction of 50¢ fares – but not by much. ...

... Leung suggested cheaper fares were not well-targeted, and funds would be better spent improving the frequency and coverage of public transport routes.

"Now the election is over, we can talk more freely," he said.

"[The introduction of 50¢ fares] was pretty obviously to sandbag the inner-city seats, and it looks like that was a success.

"I would say politicians should do some more thought beforehand, and do some research.

"I would [say] we need better services. Just focusing on pricing is not enough. I think we should look at the bigger picture."

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1853090954863132746

Less than 1% reduction.

So there it is.

A good compromise would be to keep the 50c fares initiative for all areas outside of SEQ to reflect the low service level on offer.

And within the SEQ region, charge normal Translink fares.