RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: #Metro on September 01, 2024, 13:51:56 PMIt is likely that your suggestions/objections/concerns will be considered in the course of the business case or formal evaluation process anyway, and I'm sure you accept also that it is not at all necessary to provide that level of detail in a concept.

Spending time on a business case for this is a waste of money: plain and simple. There are far bigger fish to fry than sending a bendy bus down the Doomben ROW. It would be cheaper to just put aside a couple 3-car sets and selectively duplicate a portion of the line to bump it to 15 min frequencies. The proposal has many issues as HTG has identified and it simply is not worth it at this point in time. The money is better spent on a Northside network review and boosting frequency for key routes. The Golden City Glider is enough of a boost for Hamilton Northshore.

You can call it a concept all you want but you have to have some idea that you know what you are talking about. Why don't we just slash public transport funding and have tunnels everywhere. Now don't shoot down my idea because it's only a concept but you have to tell me why it's not possible and the ways around it. Now let's drop some cash and get a business case done so we can see the merits of cutting public transport expenditure.

In the past people talked about converting it to a LRT and even in those cases no one could properly answer interchange methods at eagle junction or justify why the Doomben line needed to be a light rail line in the first place. What's the point of the concept if you can't even justify why it needs a conversion in the first place.

As I mentioned above there are a lot of hurdles for any brt conversion. There are even more hurdles if you want to run a brt along racecourse road or via Tradecoast to dfo. We can't even have a usable public transport network on the Northside. Areas have blackholes. The 306 has 3 different terminus locations depending on the time. You can propose all the concepts you want but if you can't mention the basics... actually what's your concept of getting a bus from a former ascot railway station down onto racecourse road.

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on September 01, 2024, 15:16:01 PMThe 306 has 3 different terminus locations

Oh my, I just had a look at it for myself and boy is it a mess!

Quote from: RowBro on September 01, 2024, 15:36:12 PM

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on September 01, 2024, 15:16:01 PMThe 306 has 3 different terminus locations

Oh my, I just had a look at it for myself and boy is it a mess!

Don't look at the 322. Like the 306 it too goes past Clayfield railway station and has multiple terminus locations.

There's also the 357, 358 (former 338), 359. Depending on the time they somewhat adopt each others routes annd they have a tight interchange time. Eg the 357/359 depart the city 20 minutes apart but you have 2 minutes to transfer between them at Albany creek village to get to its normal terminus. You think oh I'll get the previous 359 but that leaves the city 1hr 20m before and there's no other 359 inbetween that. And the 358 still has its terms and conditions that you have to read before catching it. For example there is a peak hour route, an off peak route and some services go via Maundrell Terrace instead of Gympie road but that's not drawn on the map. Some go to a retirement village while others bypass it. And then if it's a school term or not some services run 10 minutes faster. But hey atleast it doesn't go to Bald Hills station anymore which on the old 338 wasn't even on the map. And to make the area even more confusing after 7pm the 350 diverts to Albany creek village. So once the 359 stops running you have to know the 350 timetable to get to Albany Creek before it heads to the Aspley hypermarket. Only applies to outbound journeys and not inbound. Inbound on the 350 you have your own problem as some start at the interchange 350 stop and others start across the interchange and 6 lanes of traffic outside a petrol station.

But hey let's focus energy and resources on fantasy ideas instead of a proper public transportation network.

Quote from: HTGYou can call it a concept all you want but you have to have some idea that you know what you are talking about. Why don't we just slash public transport funding and have tunnels everywhere. Now don't shoot down my idea because it's only a concept but you have to tell me why it's not possible and the ways around it. Now let's drop some cash and get a business case done so we can see the merits of cutting public transport expenditure.

In the past people talked about converting it to a LRT and even in those cases no one could properly answer interchange methods at eagle junction or justify why the Doomben line needed to be a light rail line in the first place. What's the point of the concept if you can't even justify why it needs a conversion in the first place.

As I mentioned above there are a lot of hurdles for any brt conversion. There are even more hurdles if you want to run a brt along racecourse road or via Tradecoast to dfo. We can't even have a usable public transport network on the Northside. Areas have blackholes. The 306 has 3 different terminus locations depending on the time. You can propose all the concepts you want but if you can't mention the basics... actually what's your concept of getting a bus from a former ascot railway station down onto racecourse road.

Well, HTG a business case review has been announced in a joint media release by two levels of government. If they get the funding it will be assessed. That will happen whether members agree with it or otherwise...I really do not see how that is different in principle to how 50c fares might not be the best use of money, but it was announced and happened anyway.

Have you read the media release?

Further to this, the media release is a rare joint release between a Blue Team council and a Red Team State Government. It is rare to get an agreement like that. Here is the image - clearly one of the options that will be considered is BRT on the Doomben Line.

Image


PS: Northern Brisbane suburbs mentioned as well in the MR.

Quote from: Media ReleaseAdditionally, subject to the findings of the business case, the Miles Government, Schrinner Council and Council of Mayors (SEQ) would seek support to deliver priority infrastructure projects including transitway and bus priority infrastructure in the Northern Metro Corridor, as well as the new Northern Metro Depot to support the M2 extension to Chermside/Carseldine.

^^ Implicit in these statements is a review and reorganisation of northside bus routes, in the same way as the southside ones when M1 and M2 were announced. So your points about not the motivation being there to fix northside bus routes is simply not the case. It's on the list and is coming.

You can see that this is not just a BCC plan in the first sentence, but endorsed by council, state government and the SEQ council of mayors.

Quote from: Media ReleaseThe Miles Government, Schrinner Council and Council of Mayors (SEQ) have unveiled a significant future expansion plan for Brisbane Metro, including a long-term plan for 22 new stations and stops in the north, south, east and Brisbane airport.

Brisbane Metro BRT is here to stay, and will only expand from this point. I acknowledge that members want to see rail expanded etc, but that part I think will need to come as frequency upgrades to existing rail lines first.

Notes
Brisbane better connected: Plans for major Brisbane bus expansion unveiled
https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/101184

Typical lap dog/metro response side stepping any critism once again.

Election time always means political bs. And as always you just lap up everything you see that gets put out in a vague media release. They can do the joint media release and the state can simply palm off councils idea after the election as everyone forgets. They could also say yeah we are in favour of extension to Chermside but not to carseldine or Doomben. Not the first time and certainly not the last time. How about you ask people about the now deleted media releases about the camcos or northern busway projects? How's the mass people movement study going so far? How's the flying taxis for 2032 media release going? What about faster rail? Boy wasn't that a doozie that keeps popping up around elections.

And you do not need a metro project to trigger a network review. That's an excuse to not do anything. The network has had major issues for 2 decades.

But like usual you have your blinders on and will continue to ignore everyone's input and drag up what ever bs information you can to get to make yourself look good. The media release goes to Doomben but you still can't answer my question about your own proposal map of how to get a bert running down racecourse road. Or how to get onto Sandgate road. Why post concept ideas for discussion if you can't handle someone asking you basic questions about it.

QuoteTypical lap dog/metro response side stepping any critism once again.

Election time always means political bs. And as always you just lap up everything you see that gets put out in a vague media release. They can do the joint media release and the state can simply palm off councils idea after the election as everyone forgets. They could also say yeah we are in favour of extension to Chermside but not to carseldine or Doomben. Not the first time and certainly not the last time. How about you ask people about the now deleted media releases about the camcos or northern busway projects? How's the mass people movement study going so far? How's the flying taxis for 2032 media release going? What about faster rail? Boy wasn't that a doozie that keeps popping up around elections.

And you do not need a metro project to trigger a network review. That's an excuse to not do anything. The network has had major issues for 2 decades.

But like usual you have your blinders on and will continue to ignore everyone's input and drag up what ever bs information you can to get to make yourself look good. The media release goes to Doomben but you still can't answer my question about your own proposal map of how to get a bert running down racecourse road. Or how to get onto Sandgate road. Why post concept ideas for discussion if you can't handle someone asking you basic questions about it.

- As I wrote earlier, if the funding comes through, it will be assessed. The State Government and BCC have now committed to that.
- As I wrote earlier, if M3 is extended to Chermside, then a necessary consequence of that is the Northside bus network will be reorganised.

QuoteBut like usual you have your blinders on and will continue to ignore everyone's input and drag up what ever bs information you can to get to make yourself look good.

Well, both myself and other members such as Gazza have suggested to you a few times now that long lists of objections without consideration of potential mitigations are unhelpful.

For example, you asked how a metro bus might turn around at a terminus. Do you believe that is something unknown/unsolvable? Or that it is such an engineering challenge that it will make the BRT unviable?

Quote from: HTGBut like usual you have your blinders on and will continue to ignore everyone's input and drag up what ever bs information you can to get to make yourself look good. The media release goes to Doomben but you still can't answer my question about your own proposal map of how to get a bert running down racecourse road. Or how to get onto Sandgate road. Why post concept ideas for discussion if you can't handle someone asking you basic questions about it.

If someone is never going to be a supporter, it actually does not make sense to spend any time attempting to get them on board. Do you agree?

How do you get a Bert/bus onto racecourse road from Ascot station according to your concept idea? Just a simple answer please. Don't side step the question.

If you want to get people onboard or supporters at least answer critiques. It's all about discussions right? Then you can try to answer it rather than side step it every time I ask. I didn't list objections. I listed a few hurdles that needed to be overcome. Cost is going to be your downfall especially when there are other areas that desperately need public transport or transport improvements such as duplication on the Cleveland and Shorncliffe lines.

Turning a bus or bert is easy. That's not the problem. Turning a metro bus around takes up space. The platforms take up space.  Driver layovers take up space. That space then dictates how much land resumption is required. Do you resume every property from Bonne Ave to Morrison road along Norman Parade? That land resumption then dictates how you access the station. Depending how you access the station that then dictates do you enter eagle junction via an underpass or via an at grade crossing on Morrison road. If it's under for priority then that tells you the length of a new road bridge and property resumptions. If it's at grade then that's further property resumptions on Morrison road to facilitate a new intersection. That also impacts how road services interact with the interchange. Active transport links so new bridges from the road to platforms. Depending on the interchange layout what works need to be undertaken on the railway platforms such as new overpasses. Does the station need to be shut down for these works to be undertaken. Elevators and layout for future use. If trains go DOO space at the ends are very limited so some platform widening/raising would be required which would reflect in the layout. All of that costs money. All of that has public opinion which you now need to get the public onboard. That's just the interchange. Is state going to pay for all this work or is council? Does Eagle Junction-Doomben even require this work to be undertaken vs duplicating to Clayfield to remove a lot of the existing rail issues?

And as I said in my list there's a lot of work that needs to be done for a brt/lrt conversion.

QuoteIf someone is never going to be a supporter, it actually does not make sense to spend any time attempting to get them on board. Do you agree?

Somewhat yes. But what I am highlighting is your blindness and lack of willing to listen to any information provided. For example you dodging the most basic of questions of your own concept idea of getting a brt on racecourse road or a Sandgate road exit.

Quote from: MetroIf someone is never going to be a supporter, it actually does not make sense to spend any time attempting to get them on board. Do you agree?

^ Do you agree?

Unfortunately, even when construction starts on the Doomben line conversion, there will be people on here still in denial of modern fast frequent public transport.

There are many successful stories and evidence both in Sydney, Newcastle and Melbourne of heavy rail conversion.

Even though it's not LRT, the BRT they have chosen is still high capacity. It can be rolled out fast and provide improved travel options for the community as well as for events like the Olympics.

Hopefully, it will lead to Metro (train) lines in the future being further conversion or brand new lines.

Quote from: #Metro on September 01, 2024, 18:29:06 PM

Quote from: MetroIf someone is never going to be a supporter, it actually does not make sense to spend any time attempting to get them on board. Do you agree?

^ Do you agree?

Still want to explain how brt will access racecourse road as in your concept or are you still talking out of your ass again.

Quote from: verbatim9 on September 01, 2024, 19:29:35 PMUnfortunately, even when construction starts on the Doomben line conversion, there will be people on here still in denial of modern fast frequent public transport.

There are many successful stories and evidence both in Sydney, Newcastle and Melbourne of heavy rail conversion.

Even though it's not LRT, the BRT they have chosen is still high capacity. It can be rolled out fast and provide improved travel options for the community as well as for events like the Olympics.

Hopefully, it will lead to Metro (train) lines in the future being further conversion or brand new lines.

Not quite the same areas or reverence for a relative comparison. The proposal is for Doomben. Does not mention any running towards Hamilton. It's also left intentionally blank to not be open to any sort of criticism. Similar to how metro here is refusing to answer the most basic of questions such as how to access Sandgate road or how to access racecourse road which was his own idea. Even asking how to interchange between the two modes is such a difficult and touchy subject for some members here as it does involve admitting to quite a substantial amount of land acquisition such as about 18 single property and multiple apartment complexes surrounding eagle junction station) and new infrastructure is required regardless if it's done on the cheap or for priority.

Same with accessing Sandgate road as in metros concept. You need a lot of land acquisition to get up there from the rail level and then how sharp of a turn radius do you have so that vehicles can turn onto Sandgate road. But why would you have brt access to Sandgate road if the depot is at Tradecoast/return via gateway motorway.

But hey. Anything to detract from any proper critiquing.

Quote from: #Metro on September 01, 2024, 09:47:22 AMDoomben Line Brisbane Metro BRT Conversion Concept - September 2024

Updated Concept given the recent announcement:

Brisbane better connected: Plans for major Brisbane bus expansion unveiled
https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/101184

Quote from: Media ReleaseA rapid detailed business case will determine the feasibility of expanding the Metro south to Springwood, east to Capalaba, north to Carseldine and connecting to DFO and the Brisbane airport.

Part of this is an announcement that there will be a 'rapid' business case, and that options to Brisbane Airport will be investigated. It is therefore likely that a formal study into Doomben line options could happen.

The amount of railway to convert in this concept about 2.6 km (Eagle Farm - Ascot). Freight operations on the line would end under this concept, giving priority to passenger traffic.

- Brisbane Metro Line A: Start at Eagle Junction, stop at Clayfield, Hendra and Ascot (converted to BRT stations). Run on surface roads along Racecourse Road, enter Kingsford Smith Drive (option for bus lanes) then to the CBD (options for bus lanes).

- Brisbane Metro Line B: Start at Northshore Hamilton, Kingsford Smith Drive (option for bus lanes) then to the CBD (options for bus lanes).

- OPTIONAL Brisbane Metro Line C: Start at Brisbane Airport (subject to approval), then DFO, new bridge over Kedron Brook, Schneider Road (access to depot), then enter the Doomben Line corridor, Optional BRT station near Violet Street, then Doomben BRT station, then run on surface roads along Racecourse Road, enter Kingsford Smith Drive (option for bus lanes) then to the CBD (options for bus lanes).

Notes:
- It is intended that numbers given to the lines, and the letters are simply placeholders.
- Heritage is acknowledged to be a challenge for this concept, further investigation is required to determine what is or is not possible.

Doomben BRT conversion concept - click the thumbnail below to open this image in a larger separate window to zoom in.

(apologies for the poor image resolution, but I was unable to get it better)

For someone that wants a discussion purpose you are sure being elusive when it comes to critiquing it. Even your own concept plan.

How would you propose in your concept idea of getting buses from ascot station to travel along racecourse road given the heritage listing in the area and the busway continuing to Doomben??

What property resumptions are required at Clayfield for a Sandgate road portal??

How many bus stops and additional loss of parking will occur on racecourse road as part of your brt concept?

Can racecourse road sustain or warrant a brt over a buz network that could provide better overall coverage for the areas directly surrounding it??

How would the existing bus network interchange with the brt network? Ie would services for ascot bypass the ascot station interchange or would they use the station which once again comes back to how do they exit the station to resume local running.

These are your ideas so surly you'd have some information or ideas about how to do so. I'm going to target the racecourse road brt as that is only your idea and not part of the state/bcc concept.

Hi HTG,

I am not seeking your support or agreement on this. As pointed out before, it's a concept.

And as you yourself agree, no further time / effort needs to be spent responding to this with you.

Thanks.

So if I got this right.

You do not know how your own concept works.
You do not know if your own concept works.
You do not want to engage in discussion that critiques your concept but are willing to spew out pointless information to try and back up your concept/claims.

Do you actually know what you are talking about then? You can't even make a suggestion on how to get from the train station to racecourse road. If you don't know anything then maybe you should stop sprucing concepts that you have no idea about or aren't willing to be critiqued over.

FWIW im all for either a cheap upgrade of Doomben with a single passing loop.
Or if a stadium goes into Hamliton, then fully upgrade and extend the line, possibly with a high capacity terminus station for special events.

If BCC want a 🅱etro to Hamilton, do it on the KSD road widening project the spent a few hundred million on  , not QR infrastructure.

Moved from another thread... Brisbane Metro
——
RowBro, if it were already a duplicated line, I might agree. But if a duplication is required to run 15 min trains both directions or an overpass required to extend into Hamilton then the infrastructure isn't all there.

At that point it becomes a question of assessing competing alternatives.

RowBro, are you suggesting the extension of rail into Hamilton Northshore with rail overpass and 1 new elevated train station, or just duplicating the existing line and no extension into Hamilton Northshore and no added station there (e.g. just have Gold CityGlider serve it)?

Quote from: #Metro on September 20, 2024, 10:43:09 AMRowBro, if it were already a duplicated line, I might agree. But if a duplication is required to run 15 min trains both directions or an overpass required to extend into Hamilton then the infrastructure isn't all there.

I can guarantee that duplicating an existing line which already has provisions for two tracks for the majority of the alignment will be much cheaper than ripping up the tracks, demolishing the stations, laying the asphalt, creating the busway stations including a new busway platform at EJ for transfers, and acquiring new busses.

The reality is the infrastructure is mostly there. Clayfield has provisions for a second track and an island platform. Ascot has a second platform already. Doomben has 2 platforms already with provisions for a third. They would need upgrading to be DDA compliant, but that's far cheaper than demolishing the whole station to build a DDA compliant bus station in its place. The only challenging one is Hendra.

The other thing is that a busway station will require more width than the existing stations. They take up a large footprint width wise and for stations like Clayfield, Hendra, and EJ, that will be more difficult.

Quote from: #Metro on September 20, 2024, 10:43:09 AMRowBro, are you suggesting the extension of rail into Hamilton Northshore with rail overpass and 1 new elevated train station, or just duplicating the existing line and no extension into Hamilton Northshore and no added station there (e.g. just have Gold CityGlider serve it)?

This would require a business case to determine. If a stadium ends up being built at Hamilton Northshore, then I think an extension should be built. As a matter of fact, having a train service a stadium would be far better than having a bi-articulated bus service a stadium.

I think it'll never be a good decision to downgrade a ROW from a higher order mode (rail) to a lower order mode (bus) rather than upgrade the ROW.

A train every 15 minutes can be achieved without full duplication according to several well informed members. That would be capable of moving more people than 6 minute frequency BERTies and further progressive upgrades in the future could achieve higher frequencies.

Small upgrades to achieve 15 minute frequencies would likely be cheaper than converting the full ROW to busway and 15 minutes is suitable for turn up and go for Brisbane in the near term.

Ah perfect. Anyone want to answer my eagle junction interchange question yet?

Quote from: RowBro on September 20, 2024, 10:13:04 AM

Quote from: #Metro on September 20, 2024, 09:46:43 AMRowBro, why is it better to run a 500 or 1000 pax train at 15 min frequency if patronage is lower versus a 150 seat articulated bus at say 5-6 minute frequencies?

Your comment seems to suggest we need capacity more than frequency, but for my own view it's the other way around.

The cost of running a train is mostly the cost of the driver and guard as far as I am aware (HTG can probably shine more light on this). The capacity is largely irrelevant if the infrastructure already exists. If the capacity is really that much of a biggie you can simply run 3 car sets on the line instead.

This is what everyone glosses over. It's not a clear cut yes/no. It depends on multiple factors. Take EMU vs NGR. You can operate both trains with a 2 man crew but with NGR you have a different guard location. The current solution is to run a timetable with extra fat at Clayfield to cover any disabled people using the train at non psa attended stations. In peak hour and in the past wheelchair users have delayed all suburban trains in both directions. Who would have thought a wheelchair user boarding an NGR at Hendra would delay shorncliffe, Northgate, airport and city/Gold Coast, Cleveland services. If you have DOO on a non DOO network you still have to choose between risking delays to multiple lines or hiring additional psa. While you lost a guard you have gained extra station staff to maintain reliability. And if you want to maintain reliability how much more do you have to spend on infrastructure to achieve it ie station upgrades, rollingstock mods etc.

With the NGRs we have this problem on nearly every line. Crew costs haven't really increased outside of eba's but to enable the running of NGR's PSA costs have dramatically increased with Beenleigh and Ferny Grove lines not running them as a revenue service as a means to cap psa costs. Nambour trains are another that are delayed by single track running and disabled boarding on the NGR fleet.

If Doomben were upgraded, i think its easier to avoid then need for PSAs because its such a quiet line at the moment you can shut it down entirely to do straight level platforms. Eg at Hendra, move the platform a little westward so its entirely on the straight part.

Doomben is straight, Clayfield is straight, Ascot could be tricky due to being between curves.

We already know that other station upgrades cost around $50m each, so it would be, what $60-75m to upgrade Ascot with a passing loop.

I can tell you right now, $75m is well cheaper than a busway conversion.

If you want it on the cheap duplicate to before Sandgate road so you don't block the subs and operate a 3 car train with a quick turn around at Doomben/Roma street.

Quote from: RowBroThis would require a business case to determine. If a stadium ends up being built at Hamilton Northshore, then I think an extension should be built. As a matter of fact, having a train service a stadium would be far better than having a bi-articulated bus service a stadium.

So assess both an extended line scenario and a non-extended line scenario.

And if the Olympic Village is built there but a stadium is not, then don't extend the line.

Is that correct?

I'd like to see the line extended at some point, but it's by no means a priority.

I don't see how this is entirely relevant to the proposal to convert it to a busway though.

Quote from: #Metro on September 20, 2024, 09:11:25 AM

Quote from: SilverChasedThere is already a free shuttle between DFO and the airport. How is this allowed but a Metro requires buying out the airtrain contract?

This is a great question. I suspect the answer is because Brisbane Airport operates the bus (BARL deed is between Airtrain and the Queensland Government) and because no fare is charged on the shuttle bus (so it's not commercial).

Nothing surprising about it. It's related to government subsidies. Private operators aren't prevented from running to or from the airport. It can be free or they can charge a fare. Skybus was government subsidised but that was an external contract from the deed. Skybus ran it at a loss and they walked away from the contract.

BAC operate the buses with zero subsidy from the state government so nothing Airtrain can do about it and it doesn't interfere with the deed. The second problem is translink and state legislation. DFO is federal land so translink/state can't do anything. Travel outside that area and you find yourself now having to abide by laws that prevent solo public transport operators ie basically preventing operators such as the bcc splitting away from translink and running their own services in competition again. So BAC can run their buses to DFO but can't run them to Toombul (even if free). BCC can run limited buses to DFO but not to the airport.  If you want a translink or state funded service going to the airport you need to buy out the airtrain contract.

Quote from: Gazza on September 20, 2024, 09:34:13 AMIf Doomben is converted to BRT, i want to know how you bridge the gap between Eagle Junction and the Northern Busway.

Bus lanes on Junction Rd and some sort of treatment of the intersection at Kedron park rd.

Or 2km of tunnel from EJ to Kedron Brook Busway station?

Or is it a standalone line which terminates at EJ at a bus loop, with no connections to other Brisbane Metro services?

You'd need to resume a lot of properties along junction road for that to happen which I don't see happening. And even if you convert the line to BRT how do you interchange with eagle junction station? This is one aspect that metro doesn't want to touch or acknowledge because he knows how much property resumptions and how much new and rebuilt infrastructure is required. Even the most basic of infrastructure integration to eagle junction requires substantial resumption and rebuilt infrastructure.

So metro to DFO and shuttle to airport until contract ends?

What problem does having BRT to the airport solve that the railway doesn't already solve?

BCC is cooked.

Yes, the non infrastructure solution. Buy back airtrain.

The airport really only needs one mass transit solution to the CBD, airtrain.
Anything else can be dealt with via normal route buses.

*****

As for the DFO shuttle. I presume its because it doesn't leave the airport precinct, so its judged the same as car park shuttles, interterminal shuttles etc, fare free.

Quote from: SilverChased on September 20, 2024, 16:06:26 PMSo metro to DFO and shuttle to airport until contract ends?

Why? Just like Doomben line having a bus every 5 minutes. Why?

There's no trip demand (90% of dfo opens ant 10am missing the rush of peak hour) and the airport transfer span of hours is minimal.

Quote from: SurfRail on September 20, 2024, 16:18:22 PMWhat problem does having BRT to the airport solve that the railway doesn't already solve?

BCC is cooked.

Getting re-elected on the illusion of progress is what the BRT to the Airport solves.

And without spending millions on metro routes everywhere and converting the Doomben line to BRT you can redesign the bus network.

A plan with 20 BUZ routes all new would be around ~ $100 million/year to operate.

50c fares cost $300 million/year, repurposing that funding would leave $200 million/year to spend on something else (maybe Doomben conversion - who knows?)

I am looking forward to Brisbane Metro BRT starting next month and it working very well.

Transport is the product, modes are tools to supply that.

Running BRT to the Airport from the CBD via Airportlink is yet more pointless duplication in an already massively wastefully duplicated "network".
The only way I would even think of supporting "Metro" to the Airport would be from an entirely different route, such as via Kingsford Smith Drive and Hamilton, bringing new connections to the area.

Ripping up a functional railway line that could support 15min frequency with minimal strategic duplication and replacing it all with a bendy bus will never, mever get my support. A complete waste of money when strategic duplication would be cheaper and provide a higher quality service. Extend it the short distance over in to Hamilton Northshore makes it even better in the longer term.

How about we focus on making the network an actual functioning, high quality connected network instead of wasting money ripping up perfectly usable rail infrastructure to replace it with a bus.

It is rather ironic the person that has been constantly banging on about how we shouldn't be spending money on infrastructure is also pushing to spend money ripping up and replacing current infrastructure to downgrade the service mode...

Doomben would be more than 200 million for conversion but keep pushing your lack of knowledge bias. The interchange at eagle junction alone would be over 21 property resumptions (many of which are valued around a million + with units selling for 500,000-700,000 each) and then dealing with disconnecting the line, replacing the railway bridge, digging out the entire area, relocating services, upgrading eagle junction station and potential legal action from ascot racecourse or dealing with heritage restrictions around Ascot. There's also widening the corridor at Clayfield and Hendra which would require further property and service relocations for expanding station footprint width along with decommissioning and cleaning the railway corridor. Drainage works would also be required at various locations such as Clayfield which is prone to flooding.

Quote from: JimmyPIt is rather ironic the person that has been constantly banging on about how we shouldn't be spending money on infrastructure is also pushing to spend money ripping up and replacing current infrastructure to downgrade the service mode...

Well, it's possible commuter rail isn't the right mode for the job here.

We'll have to see how each mode performs under assessment.

Plenty of heavy rail lines that were lightly patronised have been converted (downgraded?) to light rail, such as Port Melbourne, St Kilda, Sydney L1 and Carlingford line. And nobody really is proposing to convert them back.

Sure, BRT isn't LRT but given the two technologies now overlap significantly, it should be considered, just like all the other options.

But the areas you are comparing for conversion aren't the same. And you are still forcing an interchange at Eagle Junction and duplication of an existing corridor.

You still haven't acknowledged does the area actually warrant a brt level of service? Does Eagle Junction-DFO need this type of service level? If anything it shows you still constantly fall for political bs and will ignore everyone else's input. Even when people ask you to explain your own concepts you fail to acknowledge any problems or even basic layout eg how do you get a metro bus or any bus from ascot station onto racecourse road or how you interchange with other modes and services at Eagle Junction station.

Quote from: HTGBut the areas you are comparing for conversion aren't the same. And you are still forcing an interchange at Eagle Junction and duplication of an existing corridor.

Some counterpoints:

- Similarity does not mean identicality. Yes they are not the same but they are similar (especially Carlingford line which was also low frequency and a single track railway, now converted to high frequency LRT)

- No forced interchange to get to the city. Just a single seat ride via Kingsford Smith Drive.

- Not a duplication of an existing corridor but a repurposing of it.

Under BRT conversion the problem of trains travelling away from the city to get to the city is corrected.

BRT services can start at Eagle Junction, use the rail corridor as a busway, travel down racecourse road and then use bus lanes or T2 lanes on KSD to get into the Valley and then the Brisbane CBD.

You could initially use normal BCC buses if you didn't want to incur the expense of purchasing Brisbane metro vehicles upfront.

Again. How do you get onto racecourse road from the elevated railway corridor?

How does the metro bus go from Eagle Junction station to Clayfield station. You are still having a forced interchange option at Eagle Junction so you must know or have an idea about the interchange layout to be proposing 2 BRT links using it. There are still destinations that will be serviced by heavy rail ie Milton/Toowong/RBWH (exhibition) via CRR so people will still be interchanging and not wanting to go to the city via KSD. You also mentioned using non metro buses to keep costs down so that must mean you know of layover provisions at Eagle Junction station?

Does Eagle Junction-Doomben need that level of service? Does Eagle Junction—Ascot need 2 BRT routes?

BRT via airport link is a duplication of the airport line.

You want to have concept t2 lanes then you can come up with concepts for the other sections.

Metro. It's really, really not that difficult. It's easy as saying acquiring property owned by the SES, Telstra exchange or the gallopers sports club/hamilton bowls club to make way for a busway portal exit onto Lancaster road due to the limited space and heritage restrictions surrounding ascot station and racecourse road. Would you agree that these properties should be resumed as part of the corridor conversion or should something else be done closer to racecourse road to make services faster and if so what?

If you had a portal further east should  another station be added near the portal to allow for Ascot Green access?

What would you say to 30-40 million in just property resumptions before any other infrastructure can be modified or built is value for money?

Quote from: #Metro on September 20, 2024, 21:51:23 PM

Quote from: JimmyPIt is rather ironic the person that has been constantly banging on about how we shouldn't be spending money on infrastructure is also pushing to spend money ripping up and replacing current infrastructure to downgrade the service mode...

Well, it's possible commuter rail isn't the right mode for the job here.

We'll have to see how each mode performs under assessment.

Plenty of heavy rail lines that were lightly patronised have been converted (downgraded?) to light rail, such as Port Melbourne, St Kilda, Sydney L1 and Carlingford line. And nobody really is proposing to convert them back.

Sure, BRT isn't LRT but given the two technologies now overlap significantly, it should be considered, just like all the other options.

Would be another T way....a brt so unsuccessful they never did any more.

Quote from: GazzaWould be another T way....a brt so unsuccessful they never did any more.

I believe a second T-Way after the Liverpool to Parramatta one was indeed built in 2007, the North-West T-Way.

Was about $542 million for 24 km and 30 stops/stations, or 22 million/km (2004 dollars). In today's dollars about $36.3 million/km.

That figure includes 7 new bridges and 3 underpasses.

With a construction cost as low as that, BRT conversion would be a very competitive alternative versus rail duplication of the Doomben line IMHO.

Quote from: WikipediaThe North-West T-way is a continuous series of bus-only lanes and bus roadways between Parramatta, Blacktown and Rouse Hill in Western Sydney. Opened in stages between March and November 2007, the 24 km (14.9 mi) T-way was the second bus rapid transit route to be built in Sydney after the Liverpool–Parramatta T-way.

North-West T-Way
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_T-way

And after that project, NSW Government went on to build the B-Line BRT to the Northern Beaches, which is doing really well IMO.


Notes

North West T-Way (NSW), Australian National Construction Review
https://ancr.com.au/Northwest_T_Way.pdf