RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Leveraging the existing Eagle Farm Bus Depot

Agree that it won't be immediate LRT. Would have to be staged and likely start as BRT first.
Ordinary CityGlider buses could be used initially. Which are currently run out of the Eagle Farm bus depot as well.

The Brisbane Metro depot at Rochedale cost $125 million, which is expensive but not prohibitively so. Orders for BRT or LRT vehicles can be tacked on to the back of orders going out for BCC buses or Gold Coast LRT orders. These BRT and LRT vehicles IIRC have to be shipped in through Port of Brisbane anyway.

BCC's Eagle Farm Depot is 1km away and is on the Doomben line rail corridor. Land behind the existing BCC depot could be extended, which would lower the depot construction cost as it would not be necessary to have two admin buildings etc (assuming BCC wants to operate it).

Existing BCC Eagle Farm Bus Depot:

Quote from: OzbobAll of these are extensions to existing LR networks, with the exception of Newcastle which is a special case.

IIRC Sydney's Carlingford Line conversion into Parramatta LRT is a new LRT system, not an extension of an existing LRT IIRC. It is not in operation currently, and is expected to start operations mid this year.

No Need to Wait Indefinitely for Freight Operators to Voluntarily Leave

The Port of Brisbane exists and has been set aside for freight purposes. It should be used for that. It has rail access, and IIRC the particular business concerned has facilities on both sides of the Brisbane river.

Quote from: SurfRailAll of the conversions noted above were passenger only lines except for what is now L1 in Sydney, and that was facilitated by it becoming redundant due to closure or relocation of the facilities it served.  Doomben is not going to be converted to anything while there are freight uses for it outbound from the passenger terminus.

It isn't necessary to wait an indefinite time for freight operators to voluntarily stop their operations before conversion. The Queensland Government could simply foreshadow that the ultimate future of the line is exclusive passenger service, the business could sell their assets on the North shore side of the river and use the revenue from that sale to expand their existing Port of Brisbane facility.

So there is no need to wait for freight operators from that perspective. As the owner of the line, the Queensland Government can and should make the first move.

Patronage

Patronage has partially been dealt with in Post #417 of this thread. If over 14,000 dwellings and 24,000 residents move into The Northshore Precinct, this would support either BRT or LRT rapid transit just by itself. Remember, Northshore is getting the Gold CityGlider.

It would then not be too hard to piggyback off this and extend a branch of the Gold CityGlider or LRT (whatever the ultimate mode is) up Racecourse Road and into the Doomben line corridor. That would essentially remove the bus from mixed traffic for this section.

Your service level would go from a half-hourly train to a bus every 10 minutes off-peak, and 5 min or better in peak times, both directions down Kingsford Smith Drive. And for a 3 km section, also protected from congestion in Priority B ROW. (You also have the option of exiting the bus onto Sandgate Rd and sending it to Toombul).

We know Stage 1 and Stage 2 lines shown in this image below either already have a CityGlider on them or will get one (Gold CityGlider to Northshore). So I don't think there is a question about bus patronage once service levels are improved.

And even if there were a question about patronage - suggesting low patronage is also an admission that you don't really need a 500 to 1000-pax QR train turning up there as the right mode to serve the demand.



Currently, parts of the corridor leading into Northshore have had the tracks removed and a road put in with car parking on the margins. So part of the corridor has already been converted into a road, it's not clear why the rest of it cannot also be converted to a bus only road once freight has been moved off it.

What a crock of sh%t.

Sorry but I'm being blunt. Pinkenba was a freight terminal long before the port of Brisbane was an idea. It's still a heavy freight corridor and area so it's not going anywhere. There are a substantial amount of trucks that use that area not that you know. Not every boat uses the Southside facility to unload. All your big ships do. The smaller ones unload elsewhere which is why the northern side of the river still has extensive freight usage. North shore isn't on the Doomben line. Going to toombul now removes the lrt possibility. And how do you get to Sandgate road.

If anything you are just once again showing how much you do not know the area. Choosing to ignore information provided by those that know the area. And are just downright clueless.

Quote from: HTGSorry but I'm being blunt. Pinkenba was a freight terminal long before the port of Brisbane was an idea. It's still a heavy freight corridor and area so it's not going anywhere. There are a substantial amount of trucks that use that area not that you know. Not every boat uses the Southside facility to unload. All your big ships do. The smaller ones unload elsewhere which is why the northern side of the river still has extensive freight usage. North shore isn't on the Doomben line. Going to toombul now removes the lrt possibility. And how do you get to Sandgate road.

If anything you are just once again showing how much you do not know the area. Choosing to ignore information provided by those that know the area. And are just downright clueless.

Actually, I've worked in two factories there at Eagle Farm. One off Fison Avenue, and another off Lavarack avenue. And know the area well, thank you. Used the bus and a long walk of course to get to work there, because why would anyone take the train.

I've accepted that it won't be priority No.1.

You're just going to have to make actual points HTG, rather than make lazy unsubstantiated character references I am afraid.

Doesn't change the fact that you are still talking foam in fantasy land.

Quote from: HTGDoesn't change the fact that you are still talking foam in fantasy land.

I've accepted that it won't be priority No.1.

I also note in this (long) thread, the following proposals:

- Doomben line duplication and terminus extension proposals (incl. grade separation, flyover and elevated station)  $$$
- Jonno drawing maps with LRT into Hamilton Northshore and to Toombul $$
- Suggestions of a Subway into the precinct $$$
- High-frequency CityGliders (which is now happening) $

Exploring a conversion option is no more or less fantasy than these, and of course all of these will cost money. Proposal is essentially boosting the existing 300 bus service and placing that into its own corridor if you think about it. And having a piggyback LRT option if patronage gets high enough in the adjacent Northshore precinct.

If there was sure. But there's nothing to be explored. Why does Doomben-Clayfield-Eagle Junction need a 5 bus per hour frequency? Everyone mentions northshore northshore northshore. The 300 is 3bph and hourly at night running a different alignment to the railway line. That gets even more problematic if it gets converted to light rail as you still have at grade crossings and then a terminus location at Eagle Junction or Toombul. That's before you start thinking about vehicle costs, conversion costs and additional conversion costs such as a new bridge over the ncl and an additional platform at Eagle Junction which depending on your budget impacts on your frequency as you will be constrained by single platform turn arounds. If you run buses to Toombul how do you get on and off Sandgate road? The railway line was sunked under Sandgate road so it's not simple to get up to it without some detours.

The railway line has its own issues. Yes. But so too does TMR not paying for Sunday services. And most road related issues aren't actually issues but instead are nimby issues. The locals at Hendra are against everything. If safety was really a problem the left turn would be removed. They even lobby against childcare centres and the development around the north east of the station. BCC has actively increased rat running in the area to allow for faster transit times if driving. Gotta get you home faster. Ascot lost its double track due to daa and developers not wanting access to their property from the station. Doomben lost the ability to split and form services (ie 2 outbound 3 car services forms 1 inbound 6 car service).

And as I said tmr want freight off the road as weekends are now very popular and congested area on the weekends with trucks to/from Toowoomba.

I think it would be far preferable to extend the Doomben line to terminate close to northshore and upgrade the line to enable more a decent level of frequency.

Can those with more technical knowledge such as Ozbob and HTG comment on the feasibility of extensions and upgrades?
Are 7 days a week every 20 minute services possible? What are the limits of the line's potential?

Quote from: HTGIf there was sure. But there's nothing to be explored. Why does Doomben-Clayfield-Eagle Junction need a 5 bus per hour frequency? Everyone mentions northshore northshore northshore. The 300 is 3bph and hourly at night running a different alignment to the railway line. That gets even more problematic if it gets converted to light rail as you still have at grade crossings and then a terminus location at Eagle Junction or Toombul. That's before you start thinking about vehicle costs, conversion costs and additional conversion costs such as a new bridge over the ncl and an additional platform at Eagle Junction which depending on your budget impacts on your frequency as you will be constrained by single platform turn arounds. If you run buses to Toombul how do you get on and off Sandgate road? The railway line was sunked under Sandgate road so it's not simple to get up to it without some detours.

The railway line has its own issues. Yes. But so too does TMR not paying for Sunday services. And most road related issues aren't actually issues but instead are nimby issues. The locals at Hendra are against everything. If safety was really a problem the left turn would be removed. They even lobby against childcare centres and the development around the north east of the station. BCC has actively increased rat running in the area to allow for faster transit times if driving. Gotta get you home faster. Ascot lost its double track due to daa and developers not wanting access to their property from the station. Doomben lost the ability to split and form services (ie 2 outbound 3 car services forms 1 inbound 6 car service).

And as I said tmr want freight off the road as weekends are now very popular and congested area on the weekends with trucks to/from Toowoomba.

Great. Let us know when you have some proposed solutions to this latest list of issues. 🎻

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on February 25, 2024, 16:13:25 PM. That's before you start thinking about vehicle costs, conversion costs and additional conversion costs such as a new bridge over the ncl and an additional platform at Eagle Junction which depending on your budget impacts on your frequency as you will be constrained by single platform turn arounds.

Just wanted to say that Inner West Light Rail and G Link both have single track terminii

I'm not the one trying to justify closing the Doomben line Metro. You are the one trying to justify brt. You are the one trying to justify light rail. You are the one trying to justify moving freight elsewhere. You are the one trying to justify 5 minute frequencies. If you don't like people calling out your bs then maybe take into account others are saying rather than trying to jam down the throats of people your opinion. Using examples of other places that have done it is only valid if you can make a direct comparison such as if it carried both freight and passenger traffic.

Want to resolve the railway issues? Don't bend over for the nimby's. Want a Sunday train then run it. Want better frequencies then duplicate the line in full or in sections. It costs money which is why the line hasn't been duplicated. In terms of freight issues with existing services then there shouldn't be many as they would be following directly behind the passenger service Doomben bound/departing Doomben Citybound as the passenger train arrives at Doomben/at night. Ascot-Doomben can always be duplicated as can eagle Junction-Hendra both of which doesn't need electrification/station upgrades to cut costs 

Quote from: Gazza on February 25, 2024, 18:11:22 PM

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on February 25, 2024, 16:13:25 PM. That's before you start thinking about vehicle costs, conversion costs and additional conversion costs such as a new bridge over the ncl and an additional platform at Eagle Junction which depending on your budget impacts on your frequency as you will be constrained by single platform turn arounds.

Just wanted to say that Inner West Light Rail and G Link both have single track terminii

Was in a rush but moreso wanted to highlighting how to integrate it into eagle junction with limited space requirements. In this instance and as I have said before you need to resume properties, remove the south east parking lot and replace the road overpass. Depending on the design you also potentially lose access points. Also depending on how the overpass is replaced also raises problems with the 320 and access to the local school. Again why? Someone has to spend money on all of this for what benefit other than a foamy fantasy.

In terms of extensions it gets a bit murky. All depends on budget as you can end up with vastly different designs. It's always going to be elevated but doing so also puts pressure on train timetabling possibly requiring duplication of the line most likely Eagle Junction-Hendra at a minimum (crossover before Hendra station so not required to do a new platform/level crossing at Hendra. Clayfield gets tricky with possible loss of access to the stations east once again depending on budget. Possibly a new footbridge but disability access to the north east more than  likely will be lost but disability access to the south east will be now available. Again depends all on budget).

Quote from: HTGI'm not the one trying to justify closing the Doomben line Metro. You are the one trying to justify brt. You are the one trying to justify light rail. You are the one trying to justify moving freight elsewhere. You are the one trying to justify 5 minute frequencies. If you don't like people calling out your bs then maybe take into account others are saying rather than trying to jam down the throats of people your opinion. Using examples of other places that have done it is only valid if you can make a direct comparison such as if it carried both freight and passenger traffic.

Being a critic is a luxury, because if you propose nothing, you yourself can't be criticised. Trying to find a workable solution comes with the risk that someone might not like some or all of the options. They still need to be evaluated, fairly.

Quote from: AJ TransportI think it would be far preferable to extend the Doomben line to terminate close to northshore and upgrade the line to enable more a decent level of frequency.

There are a few different options AJ Transport, broadly falling into the following categories:

Do Minimum Options
1. Do nothing
2. Stop train services altogether and run a train replacement bus (line was closed between 1993-1998)

Service-Only Upgrades
3. Top-up train services to a basic level (add Sunday services, but probably would be hourly like the Saturday timetable)
4. Boost Route 300 to a BUZ/CityGlider service

Combined Service and Infra. Upgrades
5. Top up train services to a frequent level (e.g. 15 min all day) (might require infra. works/duplication)
6. Duplicate the line, rebuild stations to DDA standards, grade separated crossing over KSD, and extend on a viaduct into a new Northshore Hamilton train station.
7. Convert the line, and use the ROW between Racecourse Rd and Eagle Junction for BRT. (e.g. place BUZ 300 into the ROW in this section).
8. Convert the line, and use the ROW between Racecourse Rd and Eagle Junction for LRT. (e.g. place a branch of Jonno's L3 LRT line into the ROW in this section)
9. Build a subway there

It's complicated because patronage, costs, and freight all are in the mix. There is disagreement over whether the poor patronage (agreed fact) is due to poor service (frequency, span, destinations) or poor location (density, access). You also have to decide if you want freight on or off. There is also the aspect of doing what is easy versus doing what is needed/ideal.

Options

Options 1 and 2 are not really desirable.
Option 3 provides a lifeline service using trains essentially, it's still not an attractive service for an inner city suburb close to the city, but it will keep the freight operators happy.
Option 4 is good, and probably should be done sooner than later, but it doesn't improve the rail line and the bus will still be limited by congestion in mixed traffic and local road speeds. This is likely the cheapest and fastest option to deliver though.

Options 5-9 require a larger outlay of money.

Option 5 might not generate enough patronage without the extension into Hamilton. If the patronage doesn't eventuate the services would just be cut back to what the existing timetable is. But you can test patronage response in a frequency boost trial similar to 15-min trains all day on the FG line if you really wanted to.

Option 6 is favoured by many members (as it's rail). It requires a lot of infra work though (duplication and extension). Given the actions to remove the rail corridor in that area and write it out of the site plan, it does not bode well. However, RBOT has campaigned a number of times since about 2010 on duplication and extension.

Option 7 will require works, but not as much as Option 6 IMO. It upgrades the bus and places the bus into the rail ROW between Racecourse Rd to Eagle Junction to allow higher speeds by taking the bus out of congestion, wider stop spacing, and being more direct. An option exists to exit into Sandgate Rd and terminate at Toombul if desired.

Option 8 is like Option 7 but using LRT. It would need continuous tram tracks to the CBD up Kingsford-Smith Drive though ($$). One branch of the tram would go up Racecourse Rd, the other along Macarthur Avenue in Northshore Hamilton. The advantage over heavy rail is you could have multiple stops in Portside rather than just one train station. And collect whatever patronage also from going down KSD etc. The frequency would probably be 10 minutes or better all day. LRT could trigger significant urban renewal and improved pedestrian environment at Portside, along Breakfast Ck Road and in Fortitude Valley.

It would also be again more expensive than Option 7 and possibly as expensive as Option 6. The Green Team have proposed LRT on KSD, and if this happens, a branch up Racecourse road into the ROW could be looked at.

Option 9 is favoured by some members as part of a standalone Brisbane Subway. It would require funding and approval of a whole new separate subway from say the CBD and Bulimba and would cost billions ($$$). It's not clear what would happen to the existing Doomben line in this scenario - it might form part of the subway alignment, or it might not.

I have left out the Gold CityGlider to Portside as that is almost a certainty.

All in all, a proper study of all options should be done. Many submissions in this thread are about maintaining the status quo which is easy, but not ideal in terms of service quality or level. It remains to be confirmed that heavy rail is the best mode versus the others.


Yallamundi LRT Station
Carlingford Heavy Rail Line conversion - part of the Parramatta Light Rail (new system)
Ascot, Hendra and Clayfield BRT stations could look like this under Option 7 (minus the tram tracks) or Option 8 (with the tram tracks).

Quote from: #Metro on February 25, 2024, 09:31:49 AMIt isn't necessary to wait an indefinite time for freight operators to voluntarily stop their operations before conversion. The Queensland Government could simply foreshadow that the ultimate future of the line is exclusive passenger service, the business could sell their assets on the North shore side of the river and use the revenue from that sale to expand their existing Port of Brisbane facility.

So there is no need to wait for freight operators from that perspective. As the owner of the line, the Queensland Government can and should make the first move.

Why would they?  It suits the State's interests for there to be additional freight handling facilities on the north bank of the river.

The Doomben line's alignment is horrible, and spending nothing on it (save for maybe getting Ascot up and running as a passing loop again and any works needed for DDA compliance) is considerably cheaper than trying to convert it to something with only a nebulous reason for existing and which can't support rail freight operations. 

I'm thoroughly sceptical about the benefits of the Carlingford LRT conversion (which seems to fall short of any useful terminus at the outbound end because that's where the railway ended, and was only a passenger line anyway).  I'm also sceptical about the benefits of the Newcastle LRT line, although that comes down to technical factors which mean it will for the foreseeable future be very slow, and quite underprovisioned for crowds, but again Wickham-Newcastle was a passenger only line.

I'm just not sure what problem this is aimed at solving that bus network reform can't fix.  By all means discuss it, but what is the actual purpose of dropping all this capex onto a dodgy alignment instead of just rolling out another BUZ route?

Which Option(s) from 1-9 and in which preference order would you be most likely to favour for this line Surfrail?

There are two main decisions for the line:

1. Do you want to spend money or do minimum?

2. Do you want freight on or off?

I assume if the line is duplicated and extended (Option 6) that will probably also disrupt freight during construction works. Will have to be closed temporarily during that time, which could be for an extended period.

Quote from: #Metro on February 26, 2024, 10:33:26 AMWhich Option(s) from 1-9 and in which preference order would you be most likely to favour for this line Surfrail?

The realistic option is number 5. Get an engineer/planner to work out the minimum work needed to get a reliable 15 minute service and build to that seven days a week over time. It may be literally a passing loop/second platform at one of the stations.

Option 5 for me.  There are only 2 LXs (neither of which is screaming to be removed).  There is room in the alignment to duplicate from the Hendra LX to Doomben (including reinstating a second platform at Ascot and bringing the second platform at Doomben back into use).  I would combine this with Sandgate to Shorncliffe duplication so the Shorncliffe line is no longer a timetabling constraint.  Can't see this being worse value for money than ripping up the line.

No need for full duplication/full daa. As SR mentioned key sections can be duplicated and limited platforms raised to keep overall costs down. You can always upgrade Hendra P2/AscotP2 at a later date when needed. That being Eagle Junction-Hendra (cross over before the platform) or Hendra-Doomben (crossover after the level crossing). Either one is going to be costly with overpasses for daa compliance. DDA costs and mtce were the reasons why Ascot lost its second platform. Ascot racecourse didn't want to allow access to their side and the bridge needed to be DAA upgraded as the overpass/stairs were the only means of passenger access. And I've already gone into detail about the problems with the eastern access points at Clayfield.

Freight paths and increased frequency can be achieved with minimal duplication in key areas/paths. In terms of extension the same applies as there is plenty of corridor space and due to the limited services a flat junction crosses won't be an issue. Doomben has 3 platforms so configuration of services can be straight forward for peaks and also allows for rollingstock positioning movements instead of congestion trying to get in/out of stabling yards at 8kph.

My personal preference is buy more trains first. All pointless until that happens. Upgrade Doomben line to a uniform timetable (the same can be said for every line instead of this Saturday only, Sunday only, weekend only timetable crap). Leave Hendra station and the level crossing single track and duplicate the rest. Raise existing platforms. Leave ascot as a single platform to reduce costs by not installing a new wheelchair compliant overpass/limited patronage. The double track east of Eagle junction gets Doomben trains off the subs and also provides a gap for freighters to slot into also by not blocking the subs. If you make Hendra-Clayfield bidi you can also allow for passenger services to overtake freighters due to the island platforms. In terms of delivery I say it would be dependent on an extension. For freight I'd prioritise Eagle junction-Hendra duplication so passenger and freight trains can clear the subs without blocking services. Hendra-Doomben can be done later and the Hendra second platform/level crossing can be done when it becomes an issue.

The bus network also has to be improved. To be frank adjusting a route here and there isn't a fix. A new bus network has to be implemented as so much of the area relies on buses from Nudgee beach or Chermside shopping centre via Sandgate road or limited cross town services. The 300 c an be anything from a 20 minute frequency to a 60 minute frequency depending on the time and day. A new and revised network is the only way forward unfortunately which won't be easily achieved.

In terms of the industrial area it's always going to be loss making. As metro knows workers aren't always 9-5. Depending on the network you could always make them around a 30 minute frequency (depends on the network and how the services are run) with the running on from other routes/just running a couple buses on loops before reverting to 60/120 during the day.

Quote from: HTGNo need for full duplication/full daa. As SR mentioned key sections can be duplicated and limited platforms raised to keep overall costs down. You can always upgrade Hendra P2/AscotP2 at a later date when needed. That being Eagle Junction-Hendra (cross over before the platform) or Hendra-Doomben (crossover after the level crossing). Either one is going to be costly with overpasses for daa compliance. DDA costs and mtce were the reasons why Ascot lost its second platform. Ascot racecourse didn't want to allow access to their side and the bridge needed to be DAA upgraded as the overpass/stairs were the only means of passenger access. And I've already gone into detail about the problems with the eastern access points at Clayfield.

Freight paths and increased frequency can be achieved with minimal duplication in key areas/paths. In terms of extension the same applies as there is plenty of corridor space and due to the limited services a flat junction crosses won't be an issue. Doomben has 3 platforms so configuration of services can be straight forward for peaks and also allows for rollingstock positioning movements instead of congestion trying to get in/out of stabling yards at 8kph.

My personal preference is buy more trains first. All pointless until that happens. Upgrade Doomben line to a uniform timetable (the same can be said for every line instead of this Saturday only, Sunday only, weekend only timetable crap). Leave Hendra station and the level crossing single track and duplicate the rest. Raise existing platforms. Leave ascot as a single platform to reduce costs by not installing a new wheelchair compliant overpass/limited patronage. The double track east of Eagle junction gets Doomben trains off the subs and also provides a gap for freighters to slot into also by not blocking the subs. If you make Hendra-Clayfield bidi you can also allow for passenger services to overtake freighters due to the island platforms. In terms of delivery I say it would be dependent on an extension. For freight I'd prioritise Eagle junction-Hendra duplication so passenger and freight trains can clear the subs without blocking services. Hendra-Doomben can be done later and the Hendra second platform/level crossing can be done when it becomes an issue.

The bus network also has to be improved. To be frank adjusting a route here and there isn't a fix. A new bus network has to be implemented as so much of the area relies on buses from Nudgee beach or Chermside shopping centre via Sandgate road or limited cross town services. The 300 c an be anything from a 20 minute frequency to a 60 minute frequency depending on the time and day. A new and revised network is the only way forward unfortunately which won't be easily achieved.

In terms of the industrial area it's always going to be loss making. As metro knows workers aren't always 9-5. Depending on the network you could always make them around a 30 minute frequency (depends on the network and how the services are run) with the running on from other routes/just running a couple buses on loops before reverting to 60/120 during the day.

Thanks for the constructive response. Well done. 

Quote from: SurfRail on February 26, 2024, 14:32:49 PMOption 5 for me.  There are only 2 LXs (neither of which is screaming to be removed).  There is room in the alignment to duplicate from the Hendra LX to Doomben (including reinstating a second platform at Ascot and bringing the second platform at Doomben back into use).  I would combine this with Sandgate to Shorncliffe duplication so the Shorncliffe line is no longer a timetabling constraint.  Can't see this being worse value for money than ripping up the line.

It looks like you could duplicate from Eagle Junction to Clayfield and turn the existing Clayfield platform into an island fairly easily. The timetable shows 6 or 7 minutes between Clayfield and Doomben, so this might be enough to have 15 minute frequency in both directions, although it would be a little tight.

Quote from: OzGamer on February 27, 2024, 10:55:43 AM

Quote from: SurfRail on February 26, 2024, 14:32:49 PMOption 5 for me.  There are only 2 LXs (neither of which is screaming to be removed).  There is room in the alignment to duplicate from the Hendra LX to Doomben (including reinstating a second platform at Ascot and bringing the second platform at Doomben back into use).  I would combine this with Sandgate to Shorncliffe duplication so the Shorncliffe line is no longer a timetabling constraint.  Can't see this being worse value for money than ripping up the line.

It looks like you could duplicate from Eagle Junction to Clayfield and turn the existing Clayfield platform into an island fairly easily. The timetable shows 6 or 7 minutes between Clayfield and Doomben, so this might be enough to have 15 minute frequency in both directions, although it would be a little tight.

Unfortunately we've discussed this before and it's not as easy as you'd think. Despite Clayfield being provisioned for dual tracks in the 50s, if you turn it into an island platform and do any major upgrades, you'd need to make the whole thing disability compliant (ie. wheelchair accessible), which it currently isn't. It would take a fair bit of work, so unfortunately it's not quite as easy as first thought.

Quote from: timh on February 27, 2024, 12:12:39 PM

Quote from: OzGamer on February 27, 2024, 10:55:43 AM

Quote from: SurfRail on February 26, 2024, 14:32:49 PMOption 5 for me.  There are only 2 LXs (neither of which is screaming to be removed).  There is room in the alignment to duplicate from the Hendra LX to Doomben (including reinstating a second platform at Ascot and bringing the second platform at Doomben back into use).  I would combine this with Sandgate to Shorncliffe duplication so the Shorncliffe line is no longer a timetabling constraint.  Can't see this being worse value for money than ripping up the line.

It looks like you could duplicate from Eagle Junction to Clayfield and turn the existing Clayfield platform into an island fairly easily. The timetable shows 6 or 7 minutes between Clayfield and Doomben, so this might be enough to have 15 minute frequency in both directions, although it would be a little tight.

Unfortunately we've discussed this before and it's not as easy as you'd think. Despite Clayfield being provisioned for dual tracks in the 50s, if you turn it into an island platform and do any major upgrades, you'd need to make the whole thing disability compliant (ie. wheelchair accessible), which it currently isn't. It would take a fair bit of work, so unfortunately it's not quite as easy as first thought.

Isn't disability compliance something that should be being done anyway?

Any length of second track also needs to be long enough to ensure freight trains are clear of the subs and can essentially act as a passing loop (hence the benefits of bi-directional signalling). Some of the grain haulers coming out of Warwick/Goondiwindi/Thallon (my neck of the woods) are quite long and the distance between EJ and Clayfield is not that far... so duplication to just before Hendra I would think might be needed.

Yeah, Clayfield is a knock down and rebuild. It's an island platform, but its so darn narrow and the station building is up a long ramp that you would have to do some long elevated walkway like at Auchenflower from the station building then a lift to drop down to the platforms to provide accessiblity.

Better off just reconfiguring to side platforms.

*************

I don't think an LR conversion is value for money. Its a full rebuild and you lose freight access, It's a standalone 3.5km long line, so you're stuck building a depot, getting an operator etc.
Would only make sense if there was a broader LR project happening in the area and it was an easy addon.

**********

So yeah, just do what is needed in terms of passing loops.

QuoteAscot racecourse didn't want to allow access to their side and the bridge needed to be DAA upgraded as the overpass/stairs were the only means of passenger access.

Would be so easy to spin it that the BRC are discriminating against the disabled community by disallowing upgrades.

Re Clayfield and disability compliance. It's mixed depending how much you want to spend on it. Going island isn't a problem and raising would be straight forward but you will loose all pedestrian access to the north east at the cost of maybe gaining access to the south east for the first time (if you want to have an overpass but I don't see that happening with all access being via Sandgate road. That's not to say there are ways around it but on a cost perspective it sort of detracts from it). You just have to weight up access. And there currently is no station building/office that passengers/staff use. It was converted into an electronic IT and coms room over a decade ago. It's an unmanned station. The only station staff is a csa who goes between the stations whose main duties are to just give the station platform a quick clean/tidy up.

In terms of ascot I get what you are saying but that's not correct. BRC don't care if you are able or not. They don't want any public access to their property in that specific location. The bridge is solely for QR access only for crossing the tracks. QR put up a fence on the platform to stop access but also because of issues with the platform shelters. BRC wanted to retain some access for some events if needed but before planning for ascot green or whatever it was called they wanted full closure of public access to their property. A few years after that the crossovers were removed.

So with Ascot, what stops QR reinstating the 2nd platform and building their own replacement DDA bridge entirely on their land, and then have a gate that only gets opened on event days.

Much like how how Ormeau has a little gate and gocard reader at the end of P1 that leads into Lords College that is locked outside school hours.

Looking at the property boundaries, QR have heaps of space if they want to put their own overbridge up.

Cost. Plain and simple. It's like saying why doesn't bindah get full daa overpasses?? It would be good if it did but the fact that the second platform hasn't been in use for over a decade and the crossovers removed with no operational impact says the second platform isn't needed.

Plus there is anlso the asbestos in the shelters that needs taking care of.

Yeah I thought this discussion was what is the minimum you can do with Doomben to improve operations.

Obviously thats gonna involve cost, but it would still be cheaper than a line rebuild.

You can go about minimums in totally different ways especially with bidi running and 3 platforms at Doomben. Even taking into account freight and extensions. Raising Ascot P2 and installing an overpass with expensive elevators on both platforms just adds additional costs that aren't really needed to improve services (Hendra-Doomben is what? 5 minutes run time with stops so it's not like you are going to saturate that section to the point that it needs another station at Ascot - you can always do it at a later date). I'd rather they focus costs on raising the single platforms at Hendra and Ascot along with duplicating the track east of the Hendra lx to Doomben. Freights/dead runners can use the P2 track and passengers can use the existing track crossing back over after the Doomben level crossing. If there is an extension it could use Doomben P2 and then continue on the same track out to Hamilton while the inbound uses P1 at Doomben. Lots of operational ability. If you want to see how good bidi running and timetabling can be check out Darra-Oxley in morning peak with the outbound services crossing with the inbound coalies or the Merivale bridge with trains crossing it both heading in the same direction.

If you wanted to you could go ahead with the duplication and once the extension goes through that's when you can start looking at additional works on ascot.

Doomben Line Brisbane Metro BRT Conversion Concept - September 2024

Updated Concept given the recent announcement:

Brisbane better connected: Plans for major Brisbane bus expansion unveiled
https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/101184

Quote from: Media ReleaseA rapid detailed business case will determine the feasibility of expanding the Metro south to Springwood, east to Capalaba, north to Carseldine and connecting to DFO and the Brisbane airport.

Part of this is an announcement that there will be a 'rapid' business case, and that options to Brisbane Airport will be investigated. It is therefore likely that a formal study into Doomben line options could happen.

The amount of railway to convert in this concept about 2.6 km (Eagle Farm - Ascot). Freight operations on the line would end under this concept, giving priority to passenger traffic.

- Brisbane Metro Line A: Start at Eagle Junction, stop at Clayfield, Hendra and Ascot (converted to BRT stations). Run on surface roads along Racecourse Road, enter Kingsford Smith Drive (option for bus lanes) then to the CBD (options for bus lanes).

- Brisbane Metro Line B: Start at Northshore Hamilton, Kingsford Smith Drive (option for bus lanes) then to the CBD (options for bus lanes).

- OPTIONAL Brisbane Metro Line C: Start at Brisbane Airport (subject to approval), then DFO, new bridge over Kedron Brook, Schneider Road (access to depot), then enter the Doomben Line corridor, Optional BRT station near Violet Street, then Doomben BRT station, then run on surface roads along Racecourse Road, enter Kingsford Smith Drive (option for bus lanes) then to the CBD (options for bus lanes).

Notes:
- It is intended that numbers given to the lines, and the letters are simply placeholders.
- Heritage is acknowledged to be a challenge for this concept, further investigation is required to determine what is or is not possible.

Doomben BRT conversion concept - click the thumbnail below to open this image in a larger separate window to zoom in.

(apologies for the poor image resolution, but I was unable to get it better)

I doubt if BERT will reach BNE any time soon.  If by some miracle it does, it will be via Airportlink.

The Doomben line is part of the transport plan for the Northshore stadium development:

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/qld-politics/qld-election-2024-steven-miles-admits-winning-voters-over-a-tough-ask/news-story/c6e6bd360f11736c451dd32216a95071

Quote... The Doomben train line is need of a major service upgrades, but will also help cart mass visitors two (sic) and from the vicinity. ...

Quote from: OzbobI doubt if BERT will reach BNE any time soon.  If by some miracle it does, it will be via Airportlink.

The Doomben line is part of the transport plan for the Northshore stadium development:

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/qld-politics/qld-election-2024-steven-miles-admits-winning-voters-over-a-tough-ask/news-story/c6e6bd360f11736c451dd32216a95071

Yes, agreed. I have listed it as optional for this reason.

Option C is such that BRT can simply terminate at DFO until such time approval is gained to enter Brisbane Airport. It seems possible that Brisbane Airtrain may be bought out (as its value decreases each year to contract expiry) and the Olympics comes closer.

In terms of mode, this should be the subject of investigation. I acknowledge that many members want rail for this corridor. And while rail is good for high peak load, BRT has the advantage of high off-peak frequency (~ 5 min), a more direct routing, offers better street-level access (is able to have more street level stops in the Northshore and Racecourse Road precinct) and in terms of construction might be easier/cheaper (e.g. no OHLE required, no rail overpass of Kingsford Smith Drive).

The main disadvantage of the BRT mode is that freight operations will have to end, and there are heritage considerations on the Doomben Line. These impacts will need to be assessed further.

With such poor public transport access in SEQ why would a Government spend money replacing an existing rail line!  Much more to be gained from BRT on routes that will eventually become Light-Rail or stay BRT (e.g Kinsgford Smith Drive) in this area. I like the talk of East-West CRR (aka Green's Metro) with the stadium proposal. 

But does Hamilton need a bus every 5 minutes? Especially if a gold glider goes that way?  Does Hamilton-DFO need a Bertie beatle bus running every 5 minutes?? Does a large portion of industrial land need such a high service frequency while populated Brisbane suburbs such as Chermside, Kedron, Lutyche or Albion have p%ss poor coverage??

More stops? So are Bertie beatle buses and city gliders now going to be all stoppers??

And stop with "it seems" with Airtrain. Yes its value diminishes with each year it has left on its contract but it still has an exclusivity contract, there is obviously a large demand from the BCC and State to run services there (further increasing its value) and big ticket events such as the Olympic Games. They are also privy and consulted by the different State Government departments, Brisbane City Council, Gold Coast City Council, Sunshine Coast City Council and the bne airport on planned and upcoming international events and tourism campaigns which once again further increases its value behind closed doors. Its always easy to assume stuff from the outside but when you have no idea about what future events they've been made privy too, a contract that was brutally set up nearly 30 years ago (do not compare it to Sydney. A few years into operations they had their contract modified when they went to the state for more funding. That has never happened here and the original contract is still in force) and multiple governments wanting to chime in on their operations the value, power and money is always going to be on their side.

Outside of a few legacy services the state government and Brisbane city council cannot provide any subsidised public transport and risk being taken to court for breach of contract. I believe BNE Airport can also be taken to court should infrastructure or facilities be provided outside of their own infrastructure delivery/services for state and council funded services.

Yes freight services would end and TMR/QR have no intention of doing so as they know how much additional load that will put on the western state and local road network (not just a local issue but an issue that affects Quilpie-Brisbane). Port of Brisbane is also not a valid excuse and the state knows this aswell as it can impact the state and smaller industries via import/exports.

The most recent document is a BCC flex and the state has jumped onboard with it coming up to an election. The state will just use the business case as an excuse and funding will be denied. They'll push ahead with some but will obviously cut the Doomben/airport proposal. Most of this has already been mentioned previously so it shouldn't be a shock. Why we keep going over and over this is beyond me.

Quote from: HTGBut does Hamilton need a bus every 5 minutes? Especially if a gold glider goes that way?  Does Hamilton-DFO need a Bertie beatle bus running every 5 minutes?? Does a large portion of industrial land need such a high service frequency while populated Brisbane suburbs such as Chermside, Kedron, Lutyche or Albion have p%ss poor coverage??

More stops? So are Bertie beatle buses and city gliders now going to be all stoppers??

And stop with "it seems" with Airtrain. Yes its value diminishes with each year it has left on its contract but it still has an exclusivity contract, there is obviously a large demand from the BCC and State to run services there (further increasing its value) and big ticket events such as the Olympic Games. They are also privy and consulted by the different State Government departments, Brisbane City Council, Gold Coast City Council, Sunshine Coast City Council and the bne airport on planned and upcoming international events and tourism campaigns which once again further increases its value behind closed doors. Its always easy to assume stuff from the outside but when you have no idea about what future events they've been made privy too, a contract that was brutally set up nearly 30 years ago (do not compare it to Sydney. A few years into operations they had their contract modified when they went to the state for more funding. That has never happened here and the original contract is still in force) and multiple governments wanting to chime in on their operations the value, power and money is always going to be on their side.

Outside of a few legacy services the state government and Brisbane city council cannot provide any subsidised public transport and risk being taken to court for breach of contract. I believe BNE Airport can also be taken to court should infrastructure or facilities be provided outside of their own infrastructure delivery/services for state and council funded services.

Yes freight services would end and TMR/QR have no intention of doing so as they know how much additional load that will put on the western state and local road network (not just a local issue but an issue that affects Quilpie-Brisbane). Port of Brisbane is also not a valid excuse and the state knows this aswell as it can impact the state and smaller industries via import/exports.

The most recent document is a BCC flex and the state has jumped onboard with it coming up to an election. The state will just use the business case as an excuse and funding will be denied. They'll push ahead with some but will obviously cut the Doomben/airport proposal. Most of this has already been mentioned previously so it shouldn't be a shock. Why we keep going over and over this is beyond me.

Let's focus on some solutions and what is possible, rather than the past (which we can now not do anything about by the way) and find a way forward with some of these concepts that BCC and the Queensland Government have put forward.

This Government implemented 50c fares across SEQ for $150 million lasting 6 months. A desktop business case into all-modes considered desktop study is not going to cost that much and might take a similar amount of time to prepare.

And they have announced that a rapid business case will be done, so it is now not a question of if a business case should be done, but rather, what input would be like to have going into it.

Let's analyse this then.

Eagle junction interchange.
How do you turn metro buses around?
How many platforms assigned for Bert?
Do you go at grade or dig the area out?
Can other buses access it ie 320/321/369 or do they maintain the current Junction road/Park Road stops?
Layover areas?
Crew facilities?
Property resumptions?
New road overpass requirements?
Railway station and railway corridor realignment?
Future railway considerations ie 9 car trains/trouts road/etc?

Are all busway stations going to have pedestrian overpasses?
Are all busway stations going to have at grade crossings?

Is there going to be an active transport corridor along the length?
How does the active transport corridor interact with the Zillman road, Nudgee road and ascot-Racecourse road exit/entrance?

Zillman road level crossing.
Bus priority?
Normal light cycle?
Pedestrian crossing access?

Nudge road level crossing.
Bus priority?
Normal light cycle?
Pedestrian crossing access?

Ascot station to racecourse road.
Property resumptions?
Heritage restrictions around the station?
Heritage restrictions around ascot racecourse gates?
Grade from the railway line down to racecourse road?
Light phase?
Bus priority?
Car parking loss?
The number of stops and stop locations?
Is it a bert bus or a bog standard Volgreen from Tradecoast/Virginia depots?

Tradecoast property resumptions.
West is heritage listed hanger and Eagle farm depot and mtce parking.
East is a high voltage substation and Tradecoast services hub.
This will be an immense expense to relocate services and limited space on the east. So a west crossing?

DFO stops.
Layover areas?
Turning Bert buses around?
Narrow DFO ring roads?
Road crossings at DFO?
Pedestrian crossings at DFO?

Freight access.
With the loss of rail freight what additional provisions have to be acknowledged for the local road network. Yes freight is rare/limited at the moment on the line but as we saw with CRR and network shutdowns containerised freight was easily managed by loading and unloading on the Pinkenba-Doomben line section. We have also seen other players show interest in pinkenba bulk services resuming or providing backups/overflow.

That's just a few of the issues that has been glossed over. And they are hurdles that $$$ needs to be attached too and $$$ that someone has to cough up. It's not just a simple heavy rail-busway conversion.

Quote from: HTGEagle junction interchange.
How do you turn metro buses around?
How many platforms assigned for Bert?
Layover areas?
Crew facilities?
Property resumptions?
New road overpass requirements?
Railway station and railway corridor realignment?
Future railway considerations ie 9 car trains/trouts road/etc?

Are all busway stations going to have pedestrian overpasses?
Are all busway stations going to have at grade crossings?

Is there going to be an active transport corridor along the length?
How does the active transport corridor interact with the Zillman road, Nudgee road and ascot-Racecourse road exit/entrance?

Zillman road level crossing.
Bus priority?
Normal light cycle?
Pedestrian crossing access?

Nudge road level crossing.
Bus priority?
Normal light cycle?
Pedestrian crossing access?

Ascot station to racecourse road.
Property resumptions?
Heritage restrictions around the station?
Heritage restrictions around ascot racecourse gates?
Grade from the railway line down to racecourse road?
Light phase?
Bus priority?
Car parking loss?
The number of stops and stop locations?
Is it a bert bus or a bog standard Volgreen from Tradecoast/Virginia depots?

Tradecoast property resumptions.
West is heritage listed hanger and Eagle farm depot and mtce parking.
East is a high voltage substation and Tradecoast services hub.
This will be an immense expense to relocate services and limited space on the east. So a west crossing?

DFO stops.
Layover areas?
Turning Bert buses around?
Narrow DFO ring roads?
Road crossings at DFO?
Pedestrian crossings at DFO?

Freight access.
With the loss of rail freight what additional provisions have to be acknowledged for the local road network. Yes freight is rare/limited at the moment on the line but as we saw with CRR and network shutdowns containerised freight was easily managed by loading and unloading on the Pinkenba-Doomben line section. We have also seen other players show interest in pinkenba bulk services resuming or providing backups/overflow.

These are great questions HTG, and I look forward to a detailed and comprehensive mitigation / constructive ideas on how to solve each point from you to share with members.

BCC and the State Government announced its intentions on an expanded Brisbane Metro service two business days ago. It is a little early to expect contruction-level detail at this early concept stage don't you think?

Don't come to us with just problems, come to us with some solutions as well. And if there are no solutions and the entire thing is unsolvable, you can just state that. The Doomben Line is going to get examined, the media release has signalled their intent to do that.

Nope. That's your job if you want to convince your bs argument is valid. You are the one pushing for a brt to pch or Hamilton with on road running.

And expand. Yes. Probably to Chermside and eastern busway. That's it. Bcc has thrown in some fantasy lines for people to fall for and you have done just that. Like usual. Pull your head out and stop falling for bs.

Still. Tell me to interchange. You can do maps but can't even give a basic answer for a simple interchange. How about getting from track height to racecourse road?

Can you even answer the basics?

Quote from: HTGNope. That's your job if you want to convince your bs argument is valid. You are the one pushing for a brt to pch or Hamilton with on road running.

Disagree HTG. You've raised objections, now we would like to hear your suggestions on mitigations.

Like do you honestly believe that there is no solution for how to turn a metro bus around at a terminus? How do they do it anywhere else in the world where these vehicles are used?

As before, I would encourage you to make some constructive suggestions regarding the items on your list, and if a problem is unsolvable/impossible to mitigate, state that against the relevant point in that list.

I have. Myself and others have said it's a bs proposal and conversion won't happen. For those reasons they won't convert it. It's political spin. And it's political spin that you lap up day in and day out.

If you can't even say how to interchange at eagle junction or how to get onto racecourse road how does your brt idea hold any weight? Come on. You dodged Northside frequencies under 59 minutes and now you are dodging questions for your own proposal/idea. Come on. Stop pussy footing around the subject. Answer some of the basic questions. Even on your map you have put possible exit onto Sandgate road. So how do you get up to Sandgate road?

Quote from: HTGI have. Myself and others have said it's a bs proposal and conversion won't happen. For those reasons they won't convert it. It's political spin. And it's political spin that you lap up day in and day out.

HTG, you were given the opportunity to provide constructive responses to your objection(s) and now it seems you have declined that, which you are of course entitled to do.

It is likely that your suggestions/objections/concerns will be considered in the course of the business case or formal evaluation process anyway, and I'm sure you accept also that it is not at all necessary to provide that level of detail in a concept.

Thank you for your understanding. If at any time you would like to provide suggested mitigations against the long list of points that you raised, you are of course welcome to do so

I understand more broadly that members want to keep Doomben as rail. That said, all relevant modes (upgraded Heavy Rail, BRT and LRT) should be considered and assessed for the corridor.