RAIL - Back On Track Forum

BCC: The race to gold - Brisbane's Games transport legacy

https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/about-council/news-and-publications/the-race-to-gold-brisbanes-games-transport-legacy 

Document: https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2024-08/20240828-The-race-to-gold-Brisbane%27s-Games-Transport-Legacy.pdf

It's all about BCC and not much else for SEQ or Queensland.  Rail is given very scant mention.

Page 14

Quote... The deadline to plan and deliver major
heavy and light rail projects for Brisbane
in time for the Games has expired.
With just 8 years to go, we must focus on
high impact, lower cost projects that can
be delivered for the long-term benefit of
Brisbane in the time that remains.  ...

Says the cheer-leader of the fast rail SEQ Mayors con to land the games. 

They deliberately did not do much, did they?

Bring on the sky taxis!       

QuoteDocument: https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2024-08/20240828-The-race-to-gold-Brisbane%27s-Games-Transport-Legacy.pdf

Some positives from this document are that Brisbane Metro BRT is going to be expanded as well as CityGlider.

I think there are two major gaps in the document:

- No mention of BUZ upgrades. A major change in accommodation is AirBnB and similar platforms. Not everybody will be staying in hotels, indeed, there are not enough hotel rooms in the entire city to accommodate everyone IIRC. For this reason, demand will likely be spread throughout the inner city.

- Restructuring the bus network. This one we have been campaigning on for 10+ years and ties in with the above.

An interesting quirk about the Brisbane PT network is that we have frequent ferries and buses on the weekend but not trains. Perth does far better, even though it does not have the regional city setup like we do here in SEQ.

It's all about Brisbane and not much else for SEQ or Queensland. Rail is given very scant mention. If proper Brisbane bus network reform went ahead properly as it should have in 2013, we would not be in this position now would we?

Quote from: hU0N on August 30, 2024, 13:32:52 PM

Quote from: GonzoFonzie on August 25, 2024, 21:12:04 PMYou cancelling the Gabba rebuild was your decision over a school, not the location of a warm-up track.

Do they really need a warm-up track in proximity to the venue?

Can't they warm-up inside the venue? If not, build a warm-up track at Hamiltion next to the Athletes Village then.

That's the thing.  To hold an Olympic games, a warm up track is absolutely needed within walking distance of the stadium.  The stadium also needs to have many dressing rooms (unless you think they might be able to get changed on the field itself too).  They need an athletes gym.  They need media rooms.  They need administration rooms.  They need medical rooms.  They need storage areas for all sorts of athletic equipment (like javelins, pole vault poles, crash mats, hurdles etc. etc).  They need technical space for the broadcast partner.  They need cable runs, catwalks and other access arrangements for broadcasters that are separate from public and athlete areas.  They need kitchens.  They need loading docks.  They need a secure entry for athletes and secure corridors so that athletes and their entourage can move around the stadium apart from the general public.  They need a way of getting food and drink into the bars and food outlets during an event (at current everything comes in before and once it's gone, it's gone).  They need proper loading docks.

The Gabba as it currently exists has almost none of this.  Moreover, since the lowest seating tier at the Gabba is built directly on the dirt, there is no undercroft where any of this stuff might be inserted.  The Gabba rebuild was cancelled because it's list of shortcomings is incredibly long, and it's so hemmed in by development that these shortcomings can only be partially addressed, and even then, only with a complete rebuild at enormous cost.  Nobody in a position of power gives a hoot about the school.

It isn't viable to simply shrug off this almost complete lack of amenities at the stadium.  Sure, an Olympics staged at QSAC would feel like a school carnival.  But an Olympics staged at a stadium lacking most of the required amenities would actually be a school carnival.

Maybe someone asked these questions about the warm-up facilities when the Gabba was first proposed. 

If the warm-up track is the reason, and not the school, why don't you build a temporary warm-up track at the old GoPrint site (above the Woolloongabba CRR site)?

If QSAC's location is the problem, then raze it and relocate it somewhere closer with better PT access near other sporting facilities.

Simple reason why the Gabba rebuild can work without the bullsh%t politics; In its forty years of its lifetime, how many concerts and matches have been played there, and how much money does the QLD Government make yearly from this? Since they own, manage, and maintain the Gabba, it would be close to 100%.

They have made their money and if they want to continue to make free money than a new stadium is needed regardless of the costs or logistics. More capacity and more events, means more money. If stadiums were not profitable then why did the Romans build them in almost every city in their empire, other than to stop people from revolting?

Quote from: OzbobIt's all about Brisbane and not much else for SEQ or Queensland. Rail is given very scant mention. If proper Brisbane bus network reform went ahead properly as it should have in 2013, we would not be in this position now would we?

Well, BCC is only doing what it has the power to do. It is one agency out of three that need to come together. And where are the State-Government level proposals? It seems they are yet to be put together, and in turn, that might turn on whether QSAC is confirmed after the October election.

If these games were in Perth, the WA PTA would simply draw up the plans and execute them. No co-ordination with a separate rail operator or negotiation with a council running PT required. A single holistic all-mode plan would be produced. The entire Perth metro area would be covered, not just the Perth city council area, and so on...

The current institutional setup produces misalignment, competing visions and conflict opportunities. These will always be created so long as we have a 'co-ordination' type authority who has a role as filling in the gaps between existing agencies.

 

The Olympic Games preparation up to this time is an absolute farce.  Nothing much will happen until after October.  The LNP must be gravely concerned with the situation as they will have to lay the template for the games in their first term. 

LM Schrinner is the chair of the SEQ Council of Mayors. He is just trying to stoke up his own turf, while the rest of SEQ and Queensland doesn't seem to matter to them anymore.  You are right about the dysfunctional PT administration for Qld #Metro.  We all know that.

Interesting response on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7234425785569153025?commentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Acomment%3A%28activity%3A7234425785569153025%2C7235411684113137664%29&replyUrn=urn%3Ali%3Acomment%3A%28activity%3A7234425785569153025%2C7235414642666192896%29&dashCommentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afsd_comment%3A%287235411684113137664%2Curn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A7234425785569153025%29&dashReplyUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afsd_comment%3A%287235414642666192896%2Curn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A7234425785569153025%29

Quote... The deadline to plan and deliver major
heavy and light rail projects for Brisbane
in time for the Games has expired.

With just 8 years to go, we must focus on
high impact, lower cost projects that can
be delivered for the long-term benefit of
Brisbane in the time that remains.  ...

I see this as "We are the BCC and we don't give a sh%t about heavy and light rail projects for Brisbane, we must focus on cheap bus solutions that cannot be delivered on-time or on-budget."

All hail Ceaser Brisbanicus for he has made his proclamation that heavy and light rail projects are not welcomed in his backwater city.

Unfortunately, I can't see major investment in underground high capacity metro (trains) in Brisbane before the Olympics. They will be flatout with quad tracking from Kuraby to Beenleigh as well as building the Sunshine Coast line from Beerburrum.

I am also hoping they commit to the Coolangatta extension from Varsity Lakes as well.

Sent to all outlets:

Some comments on the BCC 'The Race to Gold Brisbane's Games Transport Legacy Plan'

31st August 2024

RAIL Back On Track has reviewed Brisbane City Council's 2032 Olympics Transport Legacy Plan (1) that has appeared in the vacuum that is transport planning for the Games. It is as would be expected, Brisbane centric, and gives scant regard to rail. 

Overall though we agree in principle with the further expansion of BERT (Brisbane Metro BRT) and the CityGlider Network.

We would like Brisbane City Council and the Queensland Government to consider the following four aspects:

- Increased train frequency
- Bus network review
- Expansion of the BUZ network
- Cancellation of the Gympie Toll Road Tunnel

Increased train frequency. Our members would like to see train frequencies across the Greater Brisbane rail network increase to match those in Perth (1). Perth offers 15-minute train frequency to all 70+ train stations (except one) on weekends, and runs 387 more trains to and from the airport (1019 trains/week) than Brisbane does (632 trains/week)(2,3).

We suggest boosting train frequency and span on the Brisbane Airport Line (by arrangement with Airtrain) and rolling out 15-minute trains on the Kippa-Ring, Springfield, Ipswich and Shorncliffe lines. Improved weekend train service should also be trialled.

Bus Network Review. We support BCC's proposal to review the remainder of the Brisbane bus network. Duplication of bus services means that many Brisbane suburbs currently have to go without frequent bus service (e.g. Bulimba, Yeronga, Centenary suburbs). Bus interchanges at selected Beenleigh line stations and Indooroopilly should also be assessed.

BUZ Network. We strongly support expansion of the BCC BUZ network. BCC's own data shows that patronage increases are generally 100% or more when a bus service is upgraded to a BUZ (4).  Visitors will be spread across inner Brisbane and not just stay at CBD or South Brisbane hotels. BUZ Network expansion will address this more dispersed visitor demand.

Finally, the Gympie Road Toll Tunnel project should be cancelled because it is a high cost, low capacity project (5). In simple English, the Gympie Road Toll Tunnel project will cost $10 billion to purchase just 4.3 trains worth of added peak-hour road user capacity. With a benefit-cost ratio of just 0.2 it is commercially not viable for private investors without a large Queensland Government subsidy (6).

Building the Gympie Road Toll tunnel as an exclusive 'busway bypass' of Gympie Road at half the size (one tunnel, not two) would deliver a project at reduced cost and a ~ 4x increased people moving capacity over a car-based tunnel. Why has this option not been considered seriously?

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

1.The race to gold Brisbane's Games Transport Legacy Plan
https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2024-08/20240828-The-race-to-gold-Brisbane%27s-Games-Transport-Legacy.pdf

2.Translink SEQ vs Transperth Train Frequency Analysis (October 2023) https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=278801

3. Catch the plane, catch the train!
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=284520

4. BUZ - Frequency + Reliability the Winning Formula
http://hdl.handle.net/2123/6058

5. Why the Gympie Road Tunnel Does Not Make Basic Sense! https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15505.0

6. Gympie Road Bypass - Investment Proposal Summary
https://www.northbrisbaneinfrastructure.com.au/download_file/37/1

Facebook ...

https://x.com/railbotforum/status/1829725833310978404

Quote from: ozbob on August 31, 2024, 13:22:22 PM- Increased train frequency
- Bus network review
- Expansion of the BUZ network

Increase frequency to 20 mins or better by moving to Driver Only Operations and converting the guards that they can to drivers. I suspect they could have increased bi directional frequency of 20 mins or better on most lines from 7 am to 9 pm 7 days by 2028. The long distance lines may have to wait a bit longer.

Agree with them proceeding with the network review to see where the gaps lie, once these smaller changes are implemented over the next 6 months.

- Expansion of the BUZ network - Only to certain areas where warranted. Centenary suburbs should utilise the train line more at Darra by extending the River Hills express to Darra Station.

To be fair, it would be advisable to have to have a single Perth-style authority set up to organise games transport well before the games.

Quote from: #Metro on August 31, 2024, 14:01:01 PMTo be fair, it would be advisable to have to have a single Perth-style authority set up to organise games transport well before the games.

That would help if they get the autonomy and funds to do so.

Quote from: #Metro on August 31, 2024, 14:01:01 PMTo be fair, it would be advisable to have to have a single Perth-style authority set up to organise games transport well before the games.

Indeed! 

Schrinner et al play good political games.  There is isn't much against them at present, the State Labor Government is a spent force and they are more interested in sand bag counts.  I wonder what The Brisbane Organising Committee for the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games think of this "Race to Gold" effort?

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 31, 2024, 13:49:19 PMIncrease frequency to 20 mins or better by moving to Driver Only Operations and converting the guards that they can to drivers. I suspect they could have increased bi directional frequency of 20 mins or better on most lines from 7 am to 9 pm 7 days by 2028. The long distance lines may have to wait a bit longer.

Nope. And actually it's the long distance lines that would go DOO first. At the moment DOO will actually increase costs. The NGRs have heavily increased operational costs and it's not the 2 people contributing to it. It's the massive expenditure for those staff you see at the stations. To the point that their operations were limited (remember NGRs don't operate Beenleigh-Ferny Grove due to station staff issues. Not rollingstock/train crew issues) to prevent staffing cost blowouts. But hey everyone thinks DOO is the solution when they don't know the actual problem.

How many times does it have to be said.  DOO is not happening on the Citytrain network until a point is reached where there is a proper system of ATP (be it ETCS L2) or what ever. There is a longer term plan to roll out ETCS L2 on the entire network, this might then allow some DOO.

See State of the art train signalling system set to expand under State Budget
https://statements.qld.gov.au/statements/100514

Note there are no timelines mentioned in that statement. I don't think it will be in place for 2032 with so many competing priorities.

Couriermail --> World-leading architects push ahead with bold $6bn plan to save 2032 Olympics $

QuoteThe world-leading architects behind the $6bn Northshore stadium proposal have revealed they have already had serious talks with 2032 Olympic planning committees and will meet with the Brisbane Lions and Cricket Queensland within weeks.

In a Sunday Mail exclusive, the Brisbane Design Alliance (BDA) team have delivered its step-by-step business plan to transform Northshore Hamilton into an entertainment precinct that rivals Queen's Wharf and Southbank and have hit back at naysayers' claims about the costs, flood problems and transport woes.

Sports engineering specialist Peter Ayres from Aurecon – who is part of BDA alongside HKS business development director Andrew Colling and Buchan director and principal sector lead Phil Schoutrop – said he and the team of design experts had thought through flood, transport and legacy issues. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1829894014868533457

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1830037186022162494

^      

Quote from: ozbob on September 01, 2024, 10:18:06 AMhttps://x.com/ozbob13/status/1830037186022162494

There are two options here - Not changing the clock back that year, thus all year Daylight Saving or starting it earlier being a week before the games.

It would make sense having it, as sunsets would be around 6 pm rather than 5 pm.

I am all in favour of it every year anyway from Oct - Apr. It should really go until the end of April though to cover the Easter Break.

Quote from: ozbob on August 31, 2024, 23:39:35 PMCouriermail --> World-leading architects push ahead with bold $6bn plan to save 2032 Olympics $

QuoteThe world-leading architects behind the $6bn Northshore stadium proposal have revealed they have already had serious talks with 2032 Olympic planning committees and will meet with the Brisbane Lions and Cricket Queensland within weeks.

In a Sunday Mail exclusive, the Brisbane Design Alliance (BDA) team have delivered its step-by-step business plan to transform Northshore Hamilton into an entertainment precinct that rivals Queen's Wharf and Southbank and have hit back at naysayers' claims about the costs, flood problems and transport woes.

Sports engineering specialist Peter Ayres from Aurecon – who is part of BDA alongside HKS business development director Andrew Colling and Buchan director and principal sector lead Phil Schoutrop – said he and the team of design experts had thought through flood, transport and legacy issues. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1829894014868533457

Although I preferred Vic Park, I am all in favour of a privately funded stadium going forward. It would free up money for the Government to focus on a transport strategy as announced last Wednesday.

Including the Sunshine Coast line, as well as extending the Gold Coast Line to Coolangatta.

Brisbanetimes --> How to ensure a smooth ride for the Brisbane Olympics $

QuoteThe window has closed on many Brisbane 2032 transport options, so what will it be like getting around our city during the Olympics?

Dedicated Olympic road lanes, deserted schools and workplaces, and a "ring of steel" around Brisbane, unseen since it hosted the G20 summit in 2014.

These are some of the predictions of Brisbane life during the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games as the city hosts one of the world's biggest sporting events.

Brisbane Times has spoken to several planning and public transport experts who all agree that getting around Brisbane between July and August in 2032 will be a challenge, regardless of whether commuters are attending events at any of south-east Queensland's Olympic venues. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1836060685819928639

The Australian --> Queensland opposition leader rules out $1.6bn Olympic stadium rebuild $

QuoteQueensland's Liberal National Party leader David Crisafulli has ruled out sinking $1.6bn of taxpayer money into a plan to rebuild a near 50-year-old stadium as the Brisbane Olympics main athletics hub.

Plans to rebuild The Gabba as Brisbane's main stadium for the 2032 Games were dropped in March, with Labor Premier Steven Miles instead planning to upgrade the ageing Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre, previously known as QEII stadium.

Mr Crisafulli had previously hinted that an LNP government would drop QSAC as an option, but on Wednesday blasted it as a "horrendous plan" that's prospects were "zilch".

"I don't think there is any scenario where any Queenslander looks at that plan and doesn't see anything but cringe-worthiness from a desperate government," he said. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1836256656377754057

Couriermail --> Brisbane 2032 QSAC stadium slammed by Opposition leader David Crisafulli as 'cringe-worthy, desperate' $

QuoteLabor's controversial choice for the Brisbane 2032 athletics stadium has been slammed by the Opposition Leader who says he "would be stunned" if Queenslanders were proud of "temporary facilities in the middle of the bush".

Opposition Leader David Crisafulli has blasted the government's selection of QSAC as the athletics stadium for the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games, stating it was a "cringeworthy" plan backed by none.

Asked on Wednesday whether QSAC would be included in the LNP's considerations for 2032 Olympic and Paralympic venues, Mr Crisafulli firmly shut down any possibility that the stadium would emerge as a project worthy of taxpayer money, and all but confirmed it was off the table for 2032. ...

ABC News --> Brisbane Olympic chief Andrew Liveris urges cricket and AFL bosses to 'stand up' for a better 'legacy' venue

QuoteThe Brisbane 2032 Olympics chief says the Queensland capital risks losing major cricket and AFL events to the regions without a "legacy" stadium to meet future demands.

His comments come after Queensland Opposition Leader David Crisafulli said Queenslanders are "embarrassed" by a decision to stage Olympic events at the Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre (QSAC) instead of at the Gabba.

"I've been very, very clear that until we see numbers on QSAC, there is no position Brisbane 2032 has taken," Brisbane Organising Committee (OCOG) president Andrew Liveris said today.

But with the Gabba set to reach the end of its usefulness by 2030, Mr Liveris said it was up to the AFL and Cricket Australia to "stand up" and argue for a venue that can support the state's growing population. ...

Looking very much like the shuttle buses from Banoon railway station are not happening hey ... 

   

Most people will be looking forward to the back end of the QSAC proposal.

Couriermail --> 'Right size': Games boss's take-down of Premier's stadium plan $

QuoteThe Brisbane Olympics organising committee boss has delivered a pointed take-down of Premier Steven Miles's preferred stadium option.

The Paris Olympic and Paralympic Games showed the world the value of having an 80,000-seat stadium for the success of the Games, says the man charged with delivering the Brisbane 2032 event.

In a pointed take-down of Premier Steven Miles's plan to spend $1.6bn on a temporary 40,000-seat athletics facility at the old QEII Stadium – now the Queensland Sports and Athletics Centre – 2032 Organising Committee president Andrew Livers said he was still unclear about the "cost aspect" of having a venue half the size of the Paris one. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1836418052570964291

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1836422186242052555

Revenue from stadiums essentially never pays for them. A stadium which would never be filled again would be a waste. A 50,000 seat stadium might potentially make sense for the longer term, but we don't need a bigger oval stadium than that for Brisbane.

There can be all kinds of debate about whether we upgrade or replace the Gabba, or build a brand new stadium elsewhere.

What we can say with confidence is that NOBODY wants QSAC.

No one is arguing about it being a 'right-size' stadium, they are arguing about it being a 'right-place' stadium.

But remember... tHe AoC sAyS wE aRe NoT aLlowEd To BuIld NeW sTaDiUmS, bUt It'S nOt A rEqUiReMeNt FoR tHe OlYmPiC gAmEs. We DoN't NeEd ThE gAbBa ReDeVelOpEd, NoR dO wE sUpPoRt A rEpLaCeMeNt StAdIuM.

 

Tasmania is getting a whole new stadium for $774.91 million. Now I know that it will only have a seating capacity of 23,000, but I don't think that increasing the seat capacity to say 50,000 or 60,000 would put it far above the $1.6 billion that QLD Government is proposing for a small upgrade to QSAC with temporary seating. How is it that Tasmania is getting a brand-new stadium for so cheap, yet we can't even do up QSAC and provide temporary seating for under a billion?

My preferred locations for a new stadium would be, in order, Hamilton Northshore on brownfield sites, or Victoria Park. I'm not enthusiastic about the private industry proposal for Hamilton, but a government build stadium there would be good and it could see the Doomben line extended to the stadium for relatively cheap all things considered. You could even have a ferry terminal too.

I'd like Boondall looked at again as a potential Olympic stadium location. Carpark is about the right size.

I'd also support Northshore Hamilton, but only with the provision it gets Doomben line upgrades + extension, and it isn't that batshit crazy stupid idea put forward by the wanky architecture firm. Just a regular ass stadium with some good BOH areas please

Brisbanetimes --> Miles accuses Olympic 'big wig' of bullying over Brisbane stadium $

QuoteQueensland Premier Steven Miles has doubled down on his controversial plan for a no-frills Olympic stadium, while accusing an "Olympic big wig" of bullying the LNP into opposing the proposal.

Miles accused Opposition Leader David Crisafulli – who has described the Queensland Sport and Athletics Centre plan as "cringeworthy" – of bowing to pressure to block the QSAC redevelopment if elected.

"When it comes to priorities, we can have a great Games," Miles said on Thursday. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1836775325717684718

https://x.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1836666599652163614?t=9Id4dbU5XO12wePGlWYKzQ&s=19

https://x.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1836679768797802839