RAIL - Back On Track Forum

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BERT hits a few bumps ...

29th August 2024

Greetings,

It is pleasing to note that Transport Minister Mellish has brought some reality back to the proposed expansion of the BERT (' Brisbane Metro').

As reported in the Brisbanetimes --> Brisbane Metro link to airport not cleared for take-off  https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-metro-link-to-airport-not-cleared-for-take-off-20240828-p5k636.html

Quote"... Mellish said the state wanted to work with all levels of government to improve transport outcomes, but by the end of the day, he was tempering expectations of a new Brisbane Metro airport link.

"The state government does not initially believe these will be viable when you consider the existence of the current rail line and infrastructure," he said in a statement. ...

This is very correct.  There is also the fact that Brisbane Airtrain under the BOOT agreement has public transport exclusivity for BNE until 2036.

The whole BERT plan to BNE will not happen (either option) until after 2036 unless the State buys out the Airtrain BOOT contract, and even then very unlikely due to the existing BNE railway. Why duplicate an existing service? Far better to consider bus electric rapid transit improvements for Brisbane Western suburbs, a gap in the BERT expansion plan.

BERT is not high capacity compared to rail.

We need to build up and use our existing rail assets properly, as well as improved bus electric rapid transit.

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=286816

Agree with Bob's sentiments from earlier. Some of you need a reality check.

- The Doomben line is not getting converted to busway, no matter how much BCC wants it. Especially considering the uptick in freight rail traffic on the line

- There is no chance of a council bus going to the airport until the Airtrain Boot contract runs out, no matter how badly council wants it

- A lot of you would be far more happy with the "Metro" project if it was never named that, and was simply a busway extension project. We are not getting an underground metro anytime soon, there is neither the political willpower, workforce or the gumption to stomach the financial risk of such a collossaly expensive infrastructure project in Queensland's current economy.

AJ also raised some good points. We should be supporting the sensible extensions (Springwood/Hyperdome, Capalaba, Carseldine/Bracken ridge), with the proviso they are done properly. Minimum class B ROW the whole way. The "Northern Transitway" is a joke. The state has had plans for the Northern and Eastern busways for close to 15 years now. Let's just do it.

This is a cheap, quick solution that can extend the busway and decent BRT service to areas that need it.

Get used to the worst public transport in Australia title for decades. Our bus centric public transport is the achilles heal that keeps it there!

A busway systems that needs 100's of buses in addition to the 100's of Metro bus to move the volume of a few trains.

That's absurd.   

It should also be noted it's a proposed route. There are still very, very, very large fundamental problems a lot of it. The northern busway, Chermside interchange issues, airport contract issues, railway issues especially with heritage conditions at ascot, Zillman road and Nudgee road level crossings will now have buses every 5 minutes so does that mean added congestion due to new light timing phases? I assume it's going to go via sugarmill road so contamination issues with the railway corridor will apply or are they going to plow through an industrial area and golf course? rbwh-eagle junction connection issues, airport/Eagle junction connection issues, dfo issues (so is the entire network going to bypass dfo due to a crash or Boxing Day sale??, Chermside-carseldine constraints with it being dependent on a busway. And that's also not considering running patterns (does Northside congestion delays other services as we see where corro drive bus delays affecting Northside routes such as the 333 - operated by toowoong crews), no room for dedicated infrastructure on the Northside so on road running will apply, they mention eagle junction but nothing about the new proposed Albion interchange? Maps that don't make sense ie Kedron and Kedron north stops, bcc infrastructure for said metro trains - sorry, fancy buses - and the sheer cost of it all.

And yet we still can't get a bus review without massive infrastructure investment. bullsh%t.

I'm reasonably optimistic about this BRT proposal.

There is $400 million left over potentially from the City Deal.

The value of Airtrain is well below this, and is on a path to zero over time.

So you could use say $100-$200 million or so to buy out Airtrain and have money left over.

So that is one problem solved.

In terms of the Doomben line, the corridor is already there, so low or no land acquisition cost. That makes conversion cheaper.

Yes the line is used for freight sometimes, but that could move to Port of Brisbane.

Capacity isn't really an argument for retaining the Doomben line - the branch is very short and train frequency limited, the transport task is much lower.

Peak load could easily be handled by BRT.

Frequency using bus in the off-peak will also be far better with the BRT option.

Overall... proposal looks reasonable and should go to assessment.

Freight is moving away from the port. And there is massive costs with the railway corridor. Don't kid yourself in your constant ignoring and ignorance.

Send it for assessment, and then we will see.

Don't need to wait and see. GrainCorp has mentioned it. QR/TMR have mentioned it to avoid extra trucks on the road. GrainCorp/Tmr/qr have mentioned the limitations with the port of Brisbane and grain operations. So why do we need to wait if everyone has previously mentioned and gone into detail with multiple reports??? And you onviously haven't seen pinkenba graintrucks much have you? Go there on a weekend or early morning when it's loading time.

Quote from: timh on August 29, 2024, 06:36:57 AMAgree with Bob's sentiments from earlier. Some of you need a reality check.

- The Doomben line is not getting converted to busway, no matter how much BCC wants it. Especially considering the uptick in freight rail traffic on the line

- There is no chance of a council bus going to the airport until the Airtrain Boot contract runs out, no matter how badly council wants it

- A lot of you would be far more happy with the "Metro" project if it was never named that, and was simply a busway extension project. We are not getting an underground metro anytime soon, there is neither the political willpower, workforce or the gumption to stomach the financial risk of such a collossaly expensive infrastructure project in Queensland's current economy.

AJ also raised some good points. We should be supporting the sensible extensions (Springwood/Hyperdome, Capalaba, Carseldine/Bracken ridge), with the proviso they are done properly. Minimum class B ROW the whole way. The "Northern Transitway" is a joke. The state has had plans for the Northern and Eastern busways for close to 15 years now. Let's just do it.

This is a cheap, quick solution that can extend the busway and decent BRT service to areas that need it.

Sound comment Tim thanks 

There is little political willpower, workforce or the gumption to stomach the financial risk to build the Western Brisbane bypass but it is still RACQ's plans/vision. 

Just because something may not have the political willpower, workforce or the gumption to stomach the financial risk to be built does not make calling out your visions wrong.       

Quote from: HTGSo why do we need to wait if everyone has previously mentioned and gone into detail with multiple reports???

Thanks HTG, are any of these reports formal assessment reports? If so can you please provide a link to where members can find them?

I do recall reading once there had been an investigation into Doomben line conversion for Light Rail by the Qld Government perhaps in the 1990s but that's it.

Quote from: #Metro on August 29, 2024, 10:21:59 AM

Quote from: HTGSo why do we need to wait if everyone has previously mentioned and gone into detail with multiple reports???

Thanks HTG, are any of these reports formal assessment reports? If so can you please provide a link to where members can find them?

I do recall reading once there had been an investigation into Doomben line conversion for Light Rail by the Qld Government perhaps in the 1990s but that's it.

Most have some confidentiality to them but members here have copies due them being accessible via google searches or other documentation from TMR/QR. GrainCorp have expressed this in their own reports/statements. Wagner is also a player but they no longer have a railway connection to their bulk terminal. There are also a couple other players in the sector that use pinkenba. Yes the bulk of GrainCorp goes to the port but there's also QBT at Murarrie. Moving pinkenba operations to the port/nurseries isn't an option as smaller players will be priced out ie your not going to have a small bulk carrier competing against an evergreen car carrier that has a million cars, several thousand mine trucks and its own unloading ramp.

Discussion on improving PT to and from The Prince Charles Hospital has been moved to a new thread.
(Which I might add, is a very worthwhile discussion to have, not a good situation at all).

Here > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15729.0

Sent to all outlets:

BERT* (Brisbane Metro BRT) extensions must be high-performing

*BERT = Bus Electric Rapid Transit

31st August 2024

RAIL Back On Track (https://backontrack.org) supports sensible expansion of the BERT (Brisbane Metro BRT - Bus Rapid Transit) if the extensions have the essential elements of high-capacity BRT including:

. Grade separated to keep buses apart from cars and other road users;
. platform-level boarding
. gated stations with platform doors
. seamless connections to the SEQ Rail network
. ready to be converted to a true tracked metro when funding available

A good example of BRT done well is the Xiamen BRT (1,2). Xiamen BRT is a 67km long fully grade separated BRT that carries over 300,000 people per day and is designed to be converted into a metro.

SEQ transport is made up of nearly 90% of trips by car and we have the "Worst Public Transport in Australia" (3, 4)

The expanded BRT is just the start of a journey towards a bolder SEQ Transport Vision (5).
Some BRT will become true tracked-metros, others light rail whilst some may always remain BRT.

References:

1. Xiamen BRT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiamen_BRT

2. Experience the Elevated BRT in Xiamen



3. Climate Council: Brisbane named worst capital city for public transport
https://www.climatecouncil.org.au/resources/next-stop-suburbia/

4. Stuck in traffic: Two-thirds of Brisbane residents are missing out on public transport
https://newshub.medianet.com.au/2024/07/embargoed-stuck-in-traffic-two-thirds-of-brisbane-residents-are-missing-out-on-public-transport/56418/

"Brisbane ranks the worst out of Australia's five largest capital cities for access to frequent, convenient and reliable public transport."

5. SEQ 2032 - Bold Transport Vision - SEQ Rail, Metro, Light Rail and BRT
https://backontrack.org/docs/jonno/ConnectingSEQ2031BoldTMLB_SchematicMap.pdf

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=286881

Facebook ...

https://x.com/railbotforum/status/1829575764305707467

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1829622094889697415?t=v8JYTZZ3a3sJK97U02_n2A&s=19

We need to push for "rail like routes" or we have just letting them play silly buggers with our transport! 

Converting the rail section of the Doomben line should be relatively easy, but connecting it to the existing busway would need a 2 km tunnel from EJ to the Northern Busway at Kedron Brook. If they don't build any stations between Kedron Brook/Lutwyche and EJ, it could be a pretty simple driven tunnel.

We also need them to complete the busway from Turo Street  to Federation St with a new train and bus station interchange at Windsor with retail and apartments. (TOD)

In addition to the conversion from EJ to Doomben, it shouldn't cost too much to extend it up to Skygate as it's mostly semi industrial and Greenfield areas. It would probably require mostly elevated busway with minimal cut and cover tunnels.

They could also add a stop inbetween Doomben and EJ to service the warehouses in the area.

    

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 31, 2024, 12:05:35 PMConverting the rail section of the Doomben line should be relatively easy, but connecting it to the existing busway would need a 2 km tunnel from EJ to the Northern Busway at Kedron Brook. If they don't build any stations between Kedron Brook/Lutwyche and EJ, it could be a pretty simple driven tunnel.

We also need them to complete the busway from Turo Street  to Federation St with a new train and bus station interchange at Windsor with retail and apartments. (TOD)

To be blunt you are talking out of your ass. Both in terms of railway asets and getting to Skygate. Any rail decommissioning and conversion to busway will be expensive. The map is deceiving to mislead the public as the bulk of the public has no idea what it actually involves. It's just slashes on a map. It's also misleading so the powers in charge can deny anything as it's a proposal. There are a lot of black holes in terms of conversion. What will happen to heritage stations/infrastructure such as ascot and level crossings for Nudgee Road/Zillman road. How to get to DFO is misleading as you could cut through an industrial area straight into dfo or go via Sugarmill Road which will provide connections to a growing education and employment hub. And that's before you even address the eagle junction station interchange space issues, any active transport corridors along the former line, Airtrain deed and eagle junction-RBWH links (do you go past the new Albion interchange? On road running? Does more property surrounding Eagle junction station have to be purchased? Does the road bridge there need to be replaced? Is it an eagle junction to airport loop only? More dedicated infrastructure?). You also have ownership concerns. Who own what? Who transfers what? What conditions are applied?

Quite frankly it's a lot of foam and political games being played and some members here have sadly fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 31, 2024, 12:05:35 PMConverting the rail section of the Doomben line should be relatively easy, but connecting it to the existing busway would need a 2 km tunnel from EJ to the Northern Busway at Kedron Brook. If they don't build any stations between Kedron Brook/Lutwyche and EJ, it could be a pretty simple driven tunnel.

We also need them to complete the busway from Turo Street  to Federation St with a new train and bus station interchange at Windsor with retail and apartments. (TOD)

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 31, 2024, 12:17:58 PMIn addition to the conversion from EJ to Doomben, it shouldn't cost too much to extend it up to Skygate as it's mostly semi industrial and Greenfield areas. It would probably require mostly elevated busway with minimal cut and cover tunnels.

They could also add a stop inbetween Doomben and EJ to service the warehouses in the area.

Quote from: ozbob on August 31, 2024, 12:39:31 PM   

These are the things that they would need to address (look at) in the Business case.

Personally, I would just extend the Gold Glider to Skygate as this would provide immediate benefits to many people cheaper and quicker.

There seems to be a lot of inconsistencies in BCC transport report/agenda. I do believe that the Doomben line does need addressing, as this line does not meet the standards of modern public transport that people expect.

LRT or BRT would be the best option here. Yet they have gone with the latter, being BRT.

You don't need a business case to tell you how dumb the idea is. Especially when they legally don't have the right to even run services to the airport. Why does everyone like to run and hide behind the business case as an excuse rather than acknowledge the shortfalls and political propaganda?

Quote from: verbatim9 on August 31, 2024, 14:01:05 PMThere seems to be a lot of inconsistencies in BCC transport report/agenda. I do believe that the Doomben line does need addressing, as this line does not meet the standards of modern public transport that people expect.

LRT or BRT would be the best option here. Yet they have gone with the later being BRT.

Here's an easy one without reverting to using the business case as an excuse. How would you interchange between the rail corridor and the brt/lrt corridor using the current eagle junction station layout???

There has been a lot of discussion on Doomben Line options already
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=271615

There are prior examples of heavy rail corridor conversion to LRT in Sydney (L1), Parramatta (Parramatta LRT) and Melbourne (Port Melbourne 109 and St Kilda 96).

My hunch is that LRT will not be required for a little while yet, and that the BRT option can be set up much more quickly. BCC would likely also contribute financially, whereas with an LRT project they might not (unless they were also running the LRT themselves).

I think there does need to be a study into the Doomben line with all the main PT options put into a race and see which mode comes out on top. It is going to be the Olympics Village site after all. Public perception of the line is that it is not convenient PT in its current state.

Quote from: HTGYou don't need a business case to tell you how dumb the idea is. Especially when they legally don't have the right to even run services to the airport. Why does everyone like to run and hide behind the business case as an excuse rather than acknowledge the shortfalls and political propaganda?

There is $400 million left over in the City Deal funding which could be directed at many things, such as buying out Airtrain or BRT for the northern suburbs.

Business cases are useful things. For example, before the business case for the Gympie Road Toll Tunnel came out it was possible to suggest that it would be financially great etc. Now that the numbers have been run on it and it has a BCR of 0.2, well, it is not possible to argue that anymore.

And if you scroll through it it's a lot of discussion with inaccurate/wild references and a lot of foam. Nothing of real substance or justification.

Fuk, they be multiplying!

Why is there all this talk of railway-busway conversion, metro vehicles, brt, lrt, airport running when there are no buz routes in the area? No network reviews? Massive infrastructure expenses yet can't even get the basic fundamentals right.

Quote from: HTGWhy is there all this talk of railway-busway conversion, metro vehicles, brt, lrt, airport running when there are no buz routes in the area? No network reviews? Massive infrastructure expenses yet can't even get the basic fundamentals right.

These are challenges that can be worked through - they aren't the insurmountable blockers or crucial dependencies that they are being presented as.

Southside buses have been reviewed, and a Northside bus review has been foreshadowed (and is very likely to be attached to Brisbane Metro extending to Chermside).

Just do the feasibility and options report, and see what the results are. Then we will all know the result rather than just think & argue about it.

You don't need metro buses for a network review. That's the problem. And as I have constantly said the Northside is not the Southside. We have a far more versatile network and yet it's treated like sh%t.

People are still harping on about light rail  or busways on the Doomben line and metro buses to the airport. The fact no one likes to get into the nitty gritty such as how to integrate the two or "let the business case sort it out" shows how out of touch/blinded some people are to political games/propaganda.

HTG, what do you hope to get out of this conversation / continually expressing opposition to bus proposals on the Northside.

Metro bus services to Chermside is official BCC policy, and BCC has the demonstrated capacity to deliver it, given that BRT will start on the Southside in a few months.

A northside bus review will have to happen as a necessary consequence of that.

That people (at times yourself included) stop being so gullible. It doesn't matter if it's their policy or not. And the network review isn't a bcc initiative. That's a state responsibility. Cut the bs and just deliver a god damn usable public transport network.

And a usable bus network is being delivered HTG.

Are you aware that the last bus review, the last two on fact, were conducted by BCC?

The state government simply funds, reviews signs off on the plans, as that is the governance setup in Brisbane.

The transit governance is shared in Brisbane, along with planning and costs. You won't see that formally in any piece of paper, but that's what it is.

Delivering a usable network??? Fooled me.

Yeah and how are those reviews working out so far? Do we have to be so grateful that the highlight of the last major network review for the Northside had the 335 inbound change from the beams road stop outside the interchange to the actual interchange. Or a couple peak hour peak direction only routes introduced. TPCH sure did benefit from that review didn't they. As did the 335 then becoming one of the Northside longest routes with a start-end schedule of nearly 1h45m in peak (but it regularly runs longer than that - at times close to 2 hours in peak).

Doomben Line Brisbane Metro BRT Conversion Concept - September 2024
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=287056


(apologies for the poor image resolution, but I was unable to get it better)

^ Don't support this. If BERT ever makes it to BNE it will be via Airport link.

Terrible idea. But still does anyone care to answer how bert will interchange with heavy rail at Eagle Junction other than "wait for the business case". There are some significant space and infrastructure constraints here that some people seem to constantly gloss over.