RAIL - Back On Track Forum

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on March 29, 2024, 21:00:02 PM100 9x3. One set is not operational due to damage.

Thanks, do you think it will be repaired and returned to service?

Not until Maryborough is a little quieter.

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on March 29, 2024, 21:00:02 PM100 9x3. One set is not operational due to damage.

Do you know if it's being repaired, or will it be scrapped?

Still pending final assessment last time I heard.

Brisbanetimes --> SEQ western suburbs rail hits the brakes despite population growth $

QuoteNo new train services will be added to the fastest-growing rail line in south-east Queensland despite an extra 310,477 commuter trips in the past 12 months.

At 1.1 million trips in 2022-23, patronage on the line – which include stops at Springfield Central, Springfield and Richlands – has almost doubled in a decade.

The Translink figures show people returning to trains with strong, post-Covid patronage growth on Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast and Brisbane Airport line.

But high patronage growth on the Springfield Centre line began in 2017, well before Covid, and growth after the pandemic began a year earlier (2021-22) than other lines because Springfield's and Ripley's population growth rates are well over Brisbane's growth rate of 1.24 per cent.

Now Queensland's peak rail lobby group says there will not be enough trains to provide the promised 24-trains-an-hour frequency in the tunnels of Brisbane's Cross River Rail, outlined in the original business case.

"Remember they said they were going to run trains every five minutes at peak," Rail Back on Track's Robert Dow said. "I don't think that is going to happen because they won't have enough trains."

Queensland Rail was upgrading 12 trains that should have been retired in 2018, as questions arose regarding train numbers on the new Citytrain network after Cross River Rail opened in 2026.

"Obviously they've crunched the numbers, and they've had to do the life extension works on the 12 EMU [trains] because they're a little bit short," Dow said. ...

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1782091084627415219

^

It took six years for the Transperth C series trains to go from initial announcement to revenue  services (2018 -2024), and they are only 50% local build compared to the oft touted 100% build for QTMP trains.

Downer was confirmed Feb 2023 https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?msg=267322

There is no chance significant numbers of QTMP trains will be running around in 2026.  One unit is being manufactured overseas that might be behind the Government's claim " from 2026 ".

There is simply not enough trains available for the Citytrain network particularly when CRR opens for any real increases in peak train frequency.

The fact that 12 EMUs are undergoing life extension works indicates the lack of trains is real.

This all stems from the fact that the NGRs were cut from 100 six car units to 75 six car units.

Is 65 six car QTMP trains enough?  I think not ...

Political incompetence and bumbling of the highest order sadly. 

The Govt can't even get the very bare minimum service right!!

Every trip to Sydney just makes me cry!!

Quote from: OzbobIt took six years for the Transperth C series trains to go from initial announcement to revenue  services (2018 -2024), and they are only 50% local build compared to the oft touted 100% build for QTMP trains.

Pub with no beer situation...

Well if we drop the local content / autarky requirement can we perhaps order a batch from Perth? Or somewhere else in Australia?

https://x.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1781964565028262068

SEQ Suburban / Interurban train fleet

> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15599.0

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/seq-western-suburbs-rail-hits-the-brakes-despite-population-growth-20240408-p5fi8d.html

" ... Queensland's Transport Department said it was watching the population growth but had no plans to add new trains to the Springfield line even after the new Cross River Rail opened.

"While there are currently no plans to add more train services on the Springfield line at this time, Translink and Queensland Rail will continue to monitor patronage levels and loading on board individual services." ... "

My understanding was that when CRR opened, the Springfield line was going to 15 minute frequency out of peak to allow the express pattern on the Ipswich line to be full time.  I have sought clarification.

Quote from: #Metro on April 22, 2024, 06:22:12 AM

Quote from: OzbobIt took six years for the Transperth C series trains to go from initial announcement to revenue  services (2018 -2024), and they are only 50% local build compared to the oft touted 100% build for QTMP trains.

Pub with no beer situation...

Well if we drop the local content / autarky requirement can we perhaps order a batch from Perth? Or somewhere else in Australia?

I've said this before. Stupid idea. You have certifications for the network and drivers but more importantly mtce facilities and parts. We are trying to cut down on that problem. Not introduce more. Spare parts are an extremely high cost at the moment as each train pretty has its own parts list. So much so that there's multiple facilities that house them. You only have a couple realistic options.

1. Wait for QTMP. It sucks but that's the hand dealt.
2. Extend the life of more EMUs.
3. Split 6 car runs for off peak/reform them for peak runs. This has been done before. Back in the day when 3 car movements were common you'd send 2x 3 car sets to a terminus and it would form a 1x 6 car run back to the city either in or out of service. We even had the old 12 car peak runs from Caboolture. At the moment most lines are pretty quite in the off peak. Peak is the big loading problem.
4. Sectorise rollingstock. NGR will all move to sector 1 which is a given when CRR opens. Short term this will increase dead running for mtce At Wulkuraka. You might see the peak NGR on sector 2 but NGR will be prioritised for S1. S3 will have 0 NGR services. When QTMP comes online they will have full priority on sector 1 with NGRs returning to S2. S3 will not have any NGR/QTMP run services.

And as Bob pointed out. It's not so much that the NGR order was cut short it was moreso that the followup rollingstock orders was cut and nothing done about it. That then followed problems with the potential withdrawal of the entire SMU200 fleet.

Quote from: ozbob on April 22, 2024, 13:04:53 PMhttps://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/seq-western-suburbs-rail-hits-the-brakes-despite-population-growth-20240408-p5fi8d.html

" ... Queensland's Transport Department said it was watching the population growth but had no plans to add new trains to the Springfield line even after the new Cross River Rail opened.

"While there are currently no plans to add more train services on the Springfield line at this time, Translink and Queensland Rail will continue to monitor patronage levels and loading on board individual services." ... "

My understanding was that when CRR opened, the Springfield line was going to 15 minute frequency out of peak to allow the express pattern on the Ipswich line to be full time.  I have sought clarification.

I think it's become quite obvious that won't be possible due to rolling stock shortages. Maintenance needs to be done sometime. Probably crew shortages also.

Quote from: HTGI've said this before. Stupid idea. You have certifications for the network and drivers but more importantly mtce facilities and parts. We are trying to cut down on that problem. Not introduce more. Spare parts are an extremely high cost at the moment as each train pretty has its own parts list.

And what if it's producing exactly the same train as the one in QLD?

The Qld QTMP ones are Downer and the Perth C series are Alstom though.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/future-seq/rail-game-changer-on-the-way-for-brisbane/news-story/8be3ca8141b6c8eee684c6b9e8d1084f

Quote... Mr Newton said the addition of a second rail path and the shift to a three-sector network was the key to being able to run more trains more often and provide a turn-up-and-go style service on inner-suburban lines such as Cleveland, Shorncliffe or Ferny Grove.

"Meanwhile, on the Ipswich and Gold Coast lines line for example, more express services can be added, to help with the longer distance connections passengers are often making," he said.

Mr Newton said the increased capacity made a number of announced, and future improvements more viable. ...

At this stage the plan for sectorisation and express services remains in place.

Quote from: #Metro on April 22, 2024, 14:52:09 PM

Quote from: HTGI've said this before. Stupid idea. You have certifications for the network and drivers but more importantly mtce facilities and parts. We are trying to cut down on that problem. Not introduce more. Spare parts are an extremely high cost at the moment as each train pretty has its own parts list.

And what if it's producing exactly the same train as the one in QLD?

But it's not. Totally different manufacture and design.

Long run what we need is no more than 3 types in service at any given time, each at around 60-80 6-car sets.  That should massively reduce the complexity involved in sustaining the fleet, managing spares etc.

The makings are already in place with NGR (75 sets) and QTMP (65 sets).  The next big order should be for a comparable number which will completely replace all trains prior to the NGRs.  Operations can and should be sectorised so it is one maintenance centre and one type per sector - Wulkuraka for NGR / mains, Ormeau for QTMP / CRR and probably a redesigned and upgraded Mayne for the next big order / suburbans. 

Not accounting for trains out of service due to damage, missing parts, overhauls, DDA upgrades, ETCS testing or installation, we have something like 147 x 6 car trains in the fleet at present comprising:

1. 72 x Pre-NGR trains (ie approximately 72 x 6 car sets depending on EMU availability) broken down into:
- 12-ish x EMUs (24-ish 3 x car)
- 21 x SMU200s (12 x 3 car) / SMU220s (30 x 3 car)
- 7 x IMU100s (10 x 3 car) / IMU120s (4 x 3 car)
- 32 x IMU160s (28 x 3 car) / SMU260s (36 x 3 car)

2. 75 x NGR (indivisible) yields 147 x 6 car trains.

Accounting for the elimination of all 3 car services and additional services - we need to be planning for something like 210 x 6 car trains at minimum I would have thought.  That doesn't even take into account further extensions, or bulking up trains on the CRR sector to 9-car sets.

Quote from: ozbob on April 22, 2024, 09:30:33 AMSEQ Suburban / Interurban train fleet

> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15599.0

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/aboutus/organisation/seq-network-fleet

SMU 200  12 x 3 car  Delivery of Fleet  1994 - 1995

SMU 220  30 x 3 car  Delivery of Fleet  1999 - 2001

SMU 260  36 x 3 car  Delivery of Fleet  2008 - 2011

IMU 100  10 x 3 car  Delivery of Fleet  1996 - 1997 (one unit not serviceable)

IMU 120  4 x 3 car  Delivery of Fleet 2001 - 2002

IMU 160  28 x 3 car Delivery of Fleet 2004 - 2011

Total 120 3 car sets = 60 six car sets

+ EMUs ? number left possibly 23 x 3 car  Delivery of Fleet  1979 - 1987

Probably end up with 12 3 car EMUs serviceable (the ones undergoing the life extension work)

====

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/New-Generation-Rollingstock/About-the-NGR-trains

NGR 75 x 6 car entered service between December 2017 and December 2019

There won't be any small orders going forward anyway with Mayne more than likely being phased out as a mtce facility considering how assets are being relocated or outsourcing eg NGR/QTMP. It's not happening for a while but it will happen. Traveltrain assets will be based out of Rocky.

NGR/QTMP are designed for 9 car operations with a 3 car open ended set just chucked into the middle. NGR no longer has that ability under the current political climate.

QuoteNGR no longer has that ability under the current political climate.

Just add moar toilet modules 

Just completed a short interview on 4BC Drive re train numbers. 

Quote from: ozbob on April 22, 2024, 16:57:11 PMJust completed a short interview on 4BC Drive re train numbers. 

Interview 22 Apr 2024 4BC Drive Host Peter Gleeson with Robert Dow RBoT

Topic Citytrain train numbers

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/4bc/4bcdrive_pgrd_22apr24.mp3 MP3 5.1MB

https://x.com/railbotforum/status/1782462389801320713

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2024/329-2024.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 329
Asked on 21 March 2024

MR M HART ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS AND MINISTER FOR
DIGITAL SERVICES (HON B MELLISH)

QUESTION:

Will the Minister advise what auditing Queensland Rail undertakes to ensure that train drivers are
not working for other operators in their down time without Queensland Rail's knowledge,
potentially increasing the risk of fatigue related incidents?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Burleigh for the question.

Queensland Rail takes conflict of interest seriously and is committed to reducing such a risk that
may impact its operations and reputation, while ensuring the ongoing safety of customers and
employees.

Under the Queensland Rail Conflicts of Interest Standard (Standard), every employee—including
drivers—must disclose a conflict between their official duties to Queensland Rail and private
interests that may influence, or appear to influence, the performance of their official duties.
This is an ongoing obligation and includes secondary employment. Additionally, under
Queensland Rail's mandatory Code of Conduct, all employees are expected to:
. perform their work in a safe manner at all times
. comply with Queensland Rail's Fatigue Management and Fitness for Work Alcohol and
Other Drugs Management Standards and other relevant legislative requirements
. advise their leader when involved in paid or unpaid work outside Queensland Rail, that may
lead to a conflict of interest with their Queensland Rail duties
. advise their leader immediately of any private interests that are in conflict, or may be
perceived to be in conflict, with the performance of their duties.

Breaches of either the Standard or Code of Conduct will be treated as a serious matter and may
have significant consequences. Employees may be subject to disciplinary action, up to and
including termination of employment.

Queensland Rail employees are also required to complete Code of Conduct training every year,
and the requirement to declare any conflicts of interest is also regularly communicated to
employees.

Quote from: achiruel on April 22, 2024, 14:30:02 PM

Quote from: ozbob on April 22, 2024, 13:04:53 PMhttps://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/seq-western-suburbs-rail-hits-the-brakes-despite-population-growth-20240408-p5fi8d.html

" ... Queensland's Transport Department said it was watching the population growth but had no plans to add new trains to the Springfield line even after the new Cross River Rail opened.

"While there are currently no plans to add more train services on the Springfield line at this time, Translink and Queensland Rail will continue to monitor patronage levels and loading on board individual services." ... "

My understanding was that when CRR opened, the Springfield line was going to 15 minute frequency out of peak to allow the express pattern on the Ipswich line to be full time.  I have sought clarification.

I think it's become quite obvious that won't be possible due to rolling stock shortages. Maintenance needs to be done sometime. Probably crew shortages also.

The position to just watch population growth shows TMR are well and truly stuck on Prediict and Provide Congestion Creating merry go round! No desire to increase mode share what so ever.

They can't write 'we are doing nothing' sorry not enough trains.. so they write that instead.

Perth already running 15 min trains to ALL stations except one on Sundays.

Need to start looking at bus boosts to extend the railway while its sorted out.

The train fleet is presently maxed out in the peaks, certainly would be able to improve off peak frequency with the existing resources.

Once the NGR situation stabilises, I would like to see some additional Darra starters in the morning peaks to take some off congestion pressure of the Springfield starters.  We used to have Darra starters once upon a time.

Correct Bob. The second issue is maintaining a schedule post CRR with said issues. I've said it before like a broken record it's easier to maintain the status quo rather than boosting services pre crr then having to cut services post CRR as it gives the opposition ammo to use. Rollingstock uncertainty is a big cause of this. The only reason the opposition isn't calling it out is because it created the problem in the first place and doesn't want blowback. This is a problem that was well known nearly a decade ago.

Quote from: ozbob on April 23, 2024, 09:16:02 AMThe train fleet is presently maxed out in the peaks, certainly would be able to improve off peak frequency with the existing resources.

This should be the focus for the next few years. Current train numbers should be enough to extend the 15 minute daytime frequency to the weekends. For example, at least four trains per hour 7AM-7PM, 7 days a week at least as far as Darra, Ferny Grove, Northgate, Cannon Hill, and Coopers Plains. If that can happen Mon-Fri there must be enough trains to also do it Sat-Sun.

Quote from: ozbob on April 23, 2024, 09:16:02 AMOnce the NGR situation stabilises, I would like to see some additional Darra starters in the morning peaks to take some off congestion pressure of the Springfield starters.  We used to have Darra starters once upon a time.

Darra might be a stretch given the single unnelectrified track and peak coal movements via P1/2/4 but that can be worked around. Corinda would be easier and more achievable short term given the platform layout and dead runners from Roma Street/park road (either via Sherwood angle, turning around at Corinda platforms or holding at Corinda before dead running to Springfield/Redbank/Ipswich) already turn around there in the peak.

^ is there some reason the 4th track hasn't been electrified?

To save money.

Quote from: achiruel on April 23, 2024, 12:25:36 PM^ is there some reason the 4th track hasn't been electrified?

The original intention for the track amplification from Corinda to Darra was for a triple line. The engineer in charge of the project thought that there was a good case for a quad.  He was eventually successfully in converting the project from the triple to the quad, but there was no funding for the the extra platform at Oxley or sparking. We were very hopeful at the time that the extra platform at Oxley and the sparking would eventuate.  The only consolation is that the line is there and will no doubt eventually be sparked. Requires some trackwork at Corinda.

Quote from: ozbob on June 19, 2008, 20:25:23 PMConcept map extract of Oxley station from Oxley Station (Concept Plan)

Thread Corinda to Darra - was triplication (NOW QUADRUPLICATION) > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=225.0

Thread Triplication NOW QUADRUPLICATION Corinda to Darra - Oxley precinct >
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=833.msg265330#msg265330

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on April 23, 2024, 12:19:01 PM

Quote from: ozbob on April 23, 2024, 09:16:02 AMOnce the NGR situation stabilises, I would like to see some additional Darra starters in the morning peaks to take some off congestion pressure of the Springfield starters.  We used to have Darra starters once upon a time.

Darra might be a stretch given the single unnelectrified track and peak coal movements via P1/2/4 but that can be worked around. Corinda would be easier and more achievable short term given the platform layout and dead runners from Roma Street/park road (either via Sherwood angle, turning around at Corinda platforms or holding at Corinda before dead running to Springfield/Redbank/Ipswich) already turn around there in the peak.

Yes Corinda would be a bit easier.

Old Darra.  Platform 1 not in use. Platform 4 was the road used for the Darra starters.



Photograph R Dow 17 Feb 2008

Platform 1, looking in a westerly direction.



Photograph R Dow 12 Dec 2007

Queensland Parliament Hansard

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/events/han/2024/2024_04_30_DAILY.pdf

Ministerial Statements

Public Transport

Hon. BJ MELLISH(Aspley—ALP) (Minister for Transport and Main Roads and Minister for Digital
Services) (10.09 am): We want to make sure that Queenslanders can get to where they need to go
quickly and, importantly, safely. That is why the Miles government invests significantly in public
transport. Everyone needs to be able to access appointments, do their work commute and visit family
and friends safely. That is why, in particular, we are upgrading train stations and why we make safety
on our rail lines a priority.

Queensland Rail has worked with the Queensland Police Service on over 700 joint operations to
ensure the safety and security of passengers on our rail network. The safety and security of our
customers and employees is always our priority. Queensland Rail's partnership with the police, through
the 90-strong QPS Railway Squad, authorised officers, security guards and our mobile security dog
teams, continues to deliver safe and secure rail travel.

The Railway Squad is a highly visible uniformed presence on the rail network to deter, detect,
investigate and charge offenders for criminal and antisocial behaviour. They undertake regular patrols
based on intelligence and coordinate their responses out of eight purpose-built, strategically located
outposts on the rail network. In addition, two police hubs have been built at Kippa-Ring and Helensvale
railway stations for both the Railway Squad and local police. Those operations are supported by QR's
24-hour security monitoring crew, which feeds police intelligence and information via more than 12,000
CCTV cameras on the rail network. As a result of those initiatives, serious crime on the network remains
low with just over three recorded customer assaults per one million passenger journeys.

To complement this highly visible and effective presence at our rail stations, we are also rolling
out upgrades right across the network to make our stations safer, more accessible and easier to
navigate. Since 2015, the government has committed more than $700 million to upgrade stations to
improve accessibility across the South-East Queensland network. Under our Station Accessibility
Upgrade Program, 12 stations—Alderley, Newmarket, Graceville, Nambour, Dinmore, Morayfield,
Boondall, Strathpine, East Ipswich, Dakabin, Cannon Hill and Auchenflower—have been completed,
as well as platform 1 at South Bank station. We are undertaking upgrades at Banyo, Buranda,
Bundamba, Burpengary, Lindum and Morningside at the moment. While the project scope varies for
each station, the upgrades generally include the addition of lift accessible footbridges and full-length
raised platforms. Other safety upgrades include accessible pathways and toilets, improved facilities for
hearing and vision-impaired passengers, lighting and, importantly, CCTV upgrades, wayfinding signage
and new bicycle enclosures to encourage active and safe transport. I am proud to be part of a
government that prioritises safety and invests in public transport for all Queenslanders.

https://x.com/QueenslandRail/status/1792355676829757585

Queensland Parliament

https://documents.parliament.qld.gov.au/tableOffice/questionsAnswers/2024/554-2024.pdf

Question on Notice
No. 554
Asked on 2 May 2024

MR M HART ASKED MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS AND MINISTER FOR
DIGITAL SERVICES (HON B MELLISH)

QUESTION:

Will the Minister advise the number of Queensland Rail guards who have become qualified train
drivers (reported separately by quarter) since 1 January 2020?

ANSWER:

I thank the Member for Burleigh for the question.

Queensland Rail is delivering more services than ever before with a total of 8392 revenue weekly
services across South East Queensland (SEQ). The delivery of these services is achieved
through the continued planning, recruitment and training of drivers and guards to meet both
current and future demands.

Since 1 January 2020 to 31 March 2024, 120 qualified guards have been promoted to qualified
drivers in supply on the SEQ network.

Quarter Qualified Driver SEQ

March 2020 16
June 2020 0
September 2020 14
December 2020 14
March 2021 0
June 2021 34
September 2021 0
December 2021 0
March 2022 0
June 2022 0
September 2022 0
December 2022 0
March 2023 29
June 2023 11
September 2023 1
December 2023 1
March 2024 0

Queensland Rail does not require guards on its long distance services.

George Street Beat (GSB) https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/qld-politics/george-street-beat-qld-politics-news-and-gossip/news-story/62e855d792ec1c32dd7d08fd2ddf2813

QuoteRAIL RIFF

Slashing fares to 50c is a sure vote winner for the fledgling Mr Miles, but its success might be put at risk by furious Queensland Rail drivers and guards.

GSB hears enterprise negotiations between some frontline rail workers remain at a stalemate after they rejected the state's latest offer of a 4 per cent wage rise.

Traincrew members last week voted overwhelmingly in support of industrial action according to the Rail, Tram and Bus Union, with more than 95 per cent of members voting yes ...

They reached an in principle agreement on Friday. 13% in the first year.

https://mailchi.mp/rtbu/qr-traincrew-bargaining-update-2142848

The working hours reduction is interesting as if not managed properly could cause major problems in growing services going forward. If QR has say 800 drivers currently that's like an extra 40-50 drivers and guards needed to be trained in the next 2 years to hold the status quo.

A big game the QR unions play though is changing conditions to generate more overtime for themselves given the crew shortages. The cost to the taxpayer will be much higher than the 13% they get in cash.