RAIL - Back On Track Forum

ABC News --> Multi-billion-dollar direct rail line to Sunshine Coast announced, but some say it's not good enough for the Olympics

Quote from: ozbob on February 26, 2024, 12:21:57 PMCertainly been a lot of media concerning the DSCRL and the announcement on the weekend.

Until the business case is assessed by IA (this can take some time), and then the Federal Government makes a decision on funding, probably nothing much will occur.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/direct-sunshine-coast-rail-line-planning hasn't been updated yet.

Couriermail (email)

QuoteMILES DOWNPLAYS RAIL FUNDING GAP
Premier Steven Miles insists there is ample time for the federal government to make up its mind on funding a major Sunshine Coast rail line despite it needing to be built before the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games.

The state government wants construction on the 19km rail line from Beerwah to Caloundra to begin in 2026, giving the project six years before the 2032 Games. But the federal government has so far made no promises on forking out the extra $1.1bn needed to get the $5.5bn first stage of the direct Sunshine Coast rail line underway.

The proposal must be considered by Infrastructure Australia which will then advise the government on what it should do. Based on Queensland's recent submissions this process would take at least six months and likely miss the federal government's May budget.

Mr Miles said there was "ample" time for the federal government to make up its mind. "These are all long-term projects," he said.

I tried to get some idea on the IA turnaround time.  It really depends on the project but at least six months is probably around the mark.  Some projects take a lot longer if IA need further information. It is possible that this is not finalised going into the October 2024 State Election, although I would expect the Miles' Government would do everything to try to get it clear before that.

I would suggest that route 666 not be used for any express Calounda <-> Maroochydore bus.

Firstly, because there are still quite a lot of religious/superstitious people in our society that will be offended or put off by such a number.

Secondly, the 66x series buses are in the Northern Region, not Sunshine Coast region.

Maybe time to resurrect 601?

https://x.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1762266018427326550?s=20

^

Quote from: ozbob on February 26, 2024, 12:53:08 PM^

91.1 Hot FM --> Questions over new coast rail line plan

Quote... The former Transport Minister, Mark Bailey, told me in an interview last June that the Government was committed to building the 36km line all the way to Maroochydore and that it would be completed in time for the 2032 Olympics. ...

It matters little the colour of the cloth, they all spin!

Mark who?

Good old grub, blowout Bailey.

Track duplication between Beerburrum and Beerwah should be considered a prerequisite for successful operation of the DSCL, integral to that project. It makes no sense that trains between Beerwah and Caloundra will run at 140kph, only to have that train stuck behind a slow freighter to Brisbane OR having it do a 'dance of the trains' with a train heading in the opposite direction on the Beerwah-Beerburrum single track with passing loops. 

What impact will a flat, at-grade junction immediately north of Beerwah Station (for the Caloundra Line) have on the operation of passenger and freight trains on the NCL to Nambour? And what of the additional and unfunded works proposed for the line from Beerwah to Nambour (and beyond)?

We have been told there will be no need for shuttles and transfers at Beerwah Station. Is that still the case?

I am fairly confident that the junction at Beerwah for Caloundra would be a flat junction.  The need to duplicate through to Landsborough is again essential for minimising delays through the junction.

Recent significant track layouts on the SEQ rail network have been less than optimal.  I guess there is no reason why the junction for the Caloundra branch would be any different.

I don't think they know what they are doing to be honest.  As far as train operations go, why would they tell the public? 

Quote from: OzbobI don't think they know what they are doing to be honest.  As far as train operations go, why would they tell the public?

I suspect this has to do with how there is an organisational gap between QR and TMR.

If QR were a division of TMR, similar to the PTA and TransPerth, would planning be more integrated?

No compromise in Perth, separated junction for Bayswater and Morley-Ellenbrook lines from day one.

WA projects are consistently cheaper than East Coast projects on a per-km basis, so the pressure to cut corners to stay within a given funding envelope is much less.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/direct-sunshine-coast-rail-line-planning

No update on this page as yet.

There is also a second page ( to add to the confusion )

https://www.yoursay-projects.tmr.qld.gov.au/direct-sunshine-coast-rail

Nothing recent there either by the look of it.

^^ #Metro, thanks, shows how far we are behind hey?

I think when it comes time to to the DSCRL, any duplication north of Beerwah would probably go far enough past the junction to allow a freighter to wait and clear the junction, probably a few hundred meters.

Or they will use the proposed 3rd track at Beerwah to hold trains from the south, and the single track itself for trains from the north.

****************

Im not holding my breath for a full duplication to Nambour any time soon.
It's $5.5 to $7b for  the Caloundra leg, and I always regarded that as an 'easy' project over fairly flat ground.

Beerwah Nambour is a similar length, but with more stations, more difficult terrain, a tunnel or two. It would be $10b easy these days.

Sadly the pax numbers at those minor stations + a couple of tilts per day probably doesn't warrant $10b of spending.
As for freight, it'll stay single track with elongated passing loops, much like Inland Rail, and they can probably spend a few hundred million on that at least.

Quote from: #Metro on February 29, 2024, 06:52:18 AM

Quote from: OzbobI don't think they know what they are doing to be honest.  As far as train operations go, why would they tell the public?

I suspect this has to do with how there is an organisational gap between QR and TMR.

If QR were a division of TMR, similar to the PTA and TransPerth, would planning be more integrated?

No compromise in Perth, separated junction for Bayswater and Morley-Ellenbrook lines from day one.

WA projects are consistently cheaper than East Coast projects on a per-km basis, so the pressure to cut corners to stay within a given funding envelope is much less.

Negative. Planning will be just as sh%t. Compare the old CAMCOS project which was to QR spec ie future proofed quad with 160kph design and 80kph minimums to the L2P/MBRL that had QR specs for Caboolture triple and NWTC removed (among other things aswell).

As I've mentioned previously in regards to announcing service patterns it nothing to do with tmr/qr organisation setup. Its to do with the state not wanting to publicly lock themselves into frequencies when they lack rollingstock due to not future proofing the fleet for the last decade. By staging the construction it also gives them a bit more breathing room for QTMP rollingstock delivery. They need additional trains which means more on building them and then more money on stabling yards of which some have secondary projects related to them eg Dakabin stabling trips the Dakabin triple project which trips the Narangba overpass project which also trips the Anzac Ave overpass project. Remember post CRR all Gold Coast/Beenleigh/Kippa Ring/Nambour/Caboolture services will be NGR/QTMP rollingstock only. Control what's released and then it can't be used against you. Don't forget the CRR rebranding from turn up and go to more trains more often. They keep saying rollingstock is fine yet we have a real problem with 3 car trains in peak which can't be blamed on industrial action as Bailey led everyone to believe. This mornings Nambour-Roma Street service was once again a 3 car service. Cleveland-Shorncliffe also have a number scheduled for today. Ferny Grove also had a plethora of 3 car running yesterday.

The upgrade north of Beerburrum was always planned to go through to Landsborough because that is what is best operationally according to Queensland Rail (Landsborough North is the preferred point).  When personnel who actually operate the railway indicate what is required I am inclined to take notice.  With the proposed new junction at Beerwah it is now even more important to allow better train management of interurban, long distance passenger services and freight trains on the mainline.

Another half baked failure on the way ...

Quote from: OzbobWhen personnel who actually operate the railway indicate what is required I am inclined to take notice.

Precisely. Was it QR who recommended shortening the project? Doubt it.

Most likely this came from ministers through TMR or was a TMR decision itself.

You have a misalignment of two organisations right there. They're not on the same page it seems.

Quote from: ozbob on February 29, 2024, 06:30:56 AMI am fairly confident that the junction at Beerwah for Caloundra would be a flat junction.

Surely they will grade separate through an overpass as the line will almost immediately have to cross Steve Irwin Way. They can't possibly be planning a level crossing there, surely? Otherwise it would mean raising or sinking the road, which would probably cost more than just raising the new line when it's built.

Definitely no LXs on the new branch.  I was being a bit TIC.   There will be three roads through Beerwah station.  We don't really know what they will do at this point in time. Nothing is shown in the available documentation at present.

Yeah I think a (fully duplicated) flyover should be exactly the default to the point that if it doesn't exist you could credibly accuse someone in TMR of cheaping out at the level of sabotage. From a track geometry perspective it's basically Ferny Grove 2.0.

The layout at Beerwah for a three track setup basically draws itself too. Island platforms on the east, side platform on the west. Ideally I guess the middle platform would be bi-di?

Do you think they should change the tilt train stop to Beerwah (instead of Landsborough) once the line to Caloundra is built ?

I think they do personally and if so, they would need to allow for this in the station upgrade.

Yeah as far as i know that was the reason for the 3rd platform?
https://hdp-au-prod-app-qldtmr-yoursay-files.s3.ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/5217/0011/3788/23_0066B_DSC_Rnd_2_Station_Factsheet_BWH_FA_ACCESS.pdf

QuoteThe existing Beerwah station is
proposed to be upgraded and
accommodate an additional
third platform, with all platforms
designed to also support
longer trains.

Quote from: kram0 on February 29, 2024, 15:08:27 PMthey would need to allow for this in the station upgrade

The Spirit of Queensland is nine cars currently, right? But the platforms at Landsborough are about 150 metres (six cars); indeed e.g. Newmarket station is just over 150 metres. I guess boarding and alighting is limited to certain cars there.

That reminds me - Beerwah and indeed every station on the DSCRL will need to be 9-car capable. (It doesn't have to be built to that length initially, but it has to be upgradeable.) Luckily, Beerwah itself has heaps of room to extend the platforms southward so that seems pretty straightforward.

update: ninja'd by Gazza and good to have confirmation

Quote from: aldonius on February 29, 2024, 15:56:33 PM

Quote from: kram0 on February 29, 2024, 15:08:27 PMthey would need to allow for this in the station upgrade

The Spirit of Queensland is nine cars currently, right? But the platforms at Landsborough are about 150 metres (six cars); indeed e.g. Newmarket station is just over 150 metres. I guess boarding and alighting is limited to certain cars there.

That reminds me - Beerwah and indeed every station on the DSCRL will need to be 9-car capable. (It doesn't have to be built to that length initially, but it has to be upgradeable.) Luckily, Beerwah itself has heaps of room to extend the platforms southward so that seems pretty straightforward.

update: ninja'd by Gazza and good to have confirmation

Re: boldened text.
I understand from the business case that that is the plan.

https://x.com/DavidCrisafulli/status/1763374540632277294?s=20

^ Understand the LNP had a press conference this morning at Caloundra where they reaffirmed their committment to the DSCRL and to Maroochydore.  I am seeking out more information.

https://x.com/DavidCrisafulli/status/1763389289197703646?s=20

Wow.
Committing to it all the way to Maroochydore.

This is a reiteration of a statement Mr Crisafulli made in a budget reply speech two years ago.
They haven't just thrown down the gauntlet.. it's the entire armoured suit and then some.

This is a mega-challenge, especially with Gold Coast Faster Rail likely being under construction concurrently - meaning huge manpower and resources issues.

It's on the record.
They will be held to account.

^ interesting development, not unexpected.  CRR will be finished in 2025.  Carry onto K2B, and B2B and B2M?

Not to mention duplication of the NCL between Beerburrum and Beerwah.

Obviously, state Labor has hung Rob Skelton MP(ALP Nicklin) out to dry.

Rail upgrade Beerwah-Nambour anyone?

I spoke to Ch7 Sunshine Coast about this announcement today.

The Spirit of Queensland only recent had Landsborough added as a stop on a *On Request (booking) basis.  In the case an inbound/outbound passenger books at Landsborough, IIRC they stop on the platform with the back 6 cars outbound (towards Cairns), and front 6 cars inbound (towards Brisbane)

Who does TransPerth and the PTA use as contractors?? Maybe the PTA should be brought in as consultants.

All bloody pointless empty promises if you dick around don't talk about rollingstock.

Quote from: Fares_Fair on March 01, 2024, 15:30:13 PMI spoke to Ch7 Sunshine Coast about this announcement today.

https://twitter.com/7NewsSC/status/1763483889220395430?t=1zJgJRnDwwys7SWcykzyGQ&s=19

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on March 01, 2024, 18:41:27 PMAll bloody pointless empty promises if you dick around don't talk about rollingstock.

Yo, the thought has crossed me mind.  We be struggling now. 

How far away is the next tranche of new QTMP trains ? ?

Any more EMUs lying around that can be resuscitated   

Couriermail --> David Crisafulli commits to getting Sunny Coast rail to Maroochydore by 2032 if LNP wins government $

QuoteA critical rail line into the heart of the Sunshine Coast can be built in time for the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games Opposition Leader David Crisafulli has said, with the LNP promising to make it happen if they win government.

A detailed business case was submitted to Infrastructure Australia by the government recommending the 37km rail line be built in stages, with the first section to Caloundra alone to cost $5.5bn at least.

Mr Crisafulli said the Opposition was not ready to "give up on the Sunshine Coast", asserting a pledge he made in 2023 to match the federal government's $1.6bn in funds to build the direct Sunshine Coast rail.

"Governments make commitments, and they stick to the timelines. If government changes in October, so will the political will when it comes to this project," he said.

"And we are determined to make sure that goes all the way to Maroochydore as was promised for decades."

Mr Crisafulli said he believed it was still possible to get the rail line from Beerwah all the way to Maroochydore by 2032, warning if the stop was Caloundra it would turn the town into a massive carpark. ...

I think the future of the DSCRL rests very much on the outcome of the business case presently being assessed by IA. 

Things that are going well for the proposal
- Faster train speed, means that time savings will be better
- Staging
- Shorter initial line, defers major costs until later

Things that are not going well for the proposal
- Bus feeders - Should look at Express Bus Service.
- Won't be able to complete by 2032 (probable date, 2040s)
- Per-km unit cost is at the high end, and could blow out further
- Very likely 30 minute base frequency, which will reduce the time savings component of the BCR
- Rollingstock requirements?

Things that can be done
- Express Bus feeder plan to Maroochydore as a stopgap measure
- Get TransPerth/WA PTA in as a consultant or reviewer (they built Mandurah line) (pay them)
- Build more trains (consider a top-up order in with the WA factory)

The proposed length of the Beerburrum - Caloundra section in km is 19 km from the IA website. This implies a unit cost of 5.5 b / 19 km => 289.5 million/km.

Given the line is 37 km, the ballpark for a 37.8 km finished line is $10.94 b. Historically, we know that any Queensland Government project's final cost is almost always far higher than the costs stated initially. We therefore apply a cost blowout factor, to represent risk, of 1.8x.

Likely endpoint cost = ~ $20 b.


https://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/projects/direct-sunshine-coast-rail-line

Updated.

Quote- No plan to feed the train service (very important to fix this, as this is forgone passengers)

Please don't post misinformation.

https://www.yoursay-projects.tmr.qld.gov.au/sunshine-coast-public-transport/sc-east-west-bus-services

As part planning for the Sunshine Coast Public Transport and Direct Sunshine Coast Rail Line projects, TMR is looking to introduce new bus routes, additional trips and longer operating hours to continue to improve connections between stations, key destinations and areas across the Sunshine Coast.

This improved bus network will connect the community to stations and stops for the North Coast Line, the Sunshine Coast Public Transport project and Direct Sunshine Coast Rail Line.

**

Also, all recent tmr rail projects (Springfield, G link, Varsity, Redcliffe,) have had bus feeders introduced and modified to suit the line.

Secondly, it is evident you didn't look at the proposed station designs for DSCRL since you can CLEARLY see bus bays marked on the plans for each station.

Quote from: GazzaAlso, all recent tmr rail projects (Springfield, G link, Varsity, Redcliffe,) have had bus feeders introduced and modified to suit the line.

Secondly, it is evident you didn't look at the proposed station designs for DSCRL since you can CLEARLY see bus bays marked on the plans for each station.

Thanks for the feedback, which I have adjusted the post. However, what is needed is an express bus system to feed the rail line similar to the 535 Springfield Express bus given that the rail line will not extend for some time and the length of the distance from Caloundra to Maroochydore.

Quote from: GazzaSecondly, it is evident you didn't look at the proposed station designs for DSCRL since you can CLEARLY see bus bays marked on the plans for each station.

Nope. Guess you'll just have to post a correction like I did



 

QuoteNope. Guess you'll just have to post a correction like I did

Open the pdfs and take a screenshot you can see the bus bays.
Why are you still arguing?