RAIL - Back On Track Forum

The Perth model works. Yes it relies on unorthodox tools ⚒️ like trains running into freeways, high volumes of bus-train interchange and P&R. But it gets results.

Higher train patronage, more frequent trains, and higher PT trips/capita than SEQ.

If their trackless tram trial works, another wave of PT growth will be unlocked and other Australian cities likely to copy.

Their tailored approach has worked well for them.

It gets some results, yes. Still a hell of a long way from leading practice though, and still very car centric.

It is leading practice. Pioneers lead where others refuse to go, and make something new. They wouldn't be presenting this at railway conferences etc if it wasn't.

It extends effective PT application to low density settings, something that was not thought possible before, without the need to rebuild the city to Paris levels.

The next wave will be trackless trams IMO, with the plan being to densify around BRT corridors.

Will be interesting to see what final BRT vehicle is chosen for the Sunshine Coast. The outcome of the Perth trackless tram trial will likely influence this IMO.

I seriously doubt if guided buses will be an option. The cost of doing the roads is considerable. 
May as well do it properly with steel rails.

There is a lot of spin going around. 

TMR has said it will be BRT and went past the guided bus option.
No doubt it will be electric buses, possibly bi-artic.

Quote from: #Metro on December 21, 2023, 07:06:34 AMIt is leading practice. Pioneers lead where others refuse to go, and make something new. They wouldn't be presenting this at railway conferences etc if it wasn't.

It extends effective PT application to low density settings, something that was not thought possible before, without the need to rebuild the city to Paris levels.

The next wave will be trackless trams IMO, with the plan being to densify around BRT corridors.

Will be interesting to see what final BRT vehicle is chosen for the Sunshine Coast. The outcome of the Perth trackless tram trial will likely influence this IMO.

if only PT mode share was the only measure we were interested in! Raft of other factors that we have to consider. Perth is not a model you create if you don't have to!!

Low density cities exist. As long as they do, there will always be a need for strategies that work with that.

Will be interesting to see how Sunshine Coast will integrate the BRT. Key question will be whether the system ends up open or closed BRT, and what plans are to add density around stations (residents permitting).

Quote from: #Metro on December 21, 2023, 09:14:57 AMLow density cities exist. As long as they do, there will always be a need for strategies that work with that.

Will be interesting to see how Sunshine Coast will integrate the BRT. Key question will be whether the system ends up open or closed BRT, and what plans are to add density around stations (residents permitting).

Step 1. Low density cities should not exist.  They only exist due to restrictive city plans! They are not a naturally occurring creation.  Nor do they provide the housing /city people would prefer.

You're not wrong Jonno. But I'm a pragmatist, not an idealist.

The planners at the WA PTA and TMR don't get to choose what city they get to work on. They have their work cut out for them.

A lot of the Sunshine coast is low density. That in part is a reflection of residents past democratic choices.

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Update

For example, the existing NCL is set quite far back from the coast, but most people want to live near the beach.

Should the plan in the 1960s-1970s have been high density TODs around SC hinterland rail stations and no development at all beachside?

NSW changed the city!! WA and QLD have same powers

https://amp.smh.com.au/national/nsw/revealed-the-25-sydney-suburbs-where-the-government-will-seize-control-of-housing-20231205-p5ep72.html

QuoteThe NSW government will rezone land around eight Metro and heavy rail stations to provide for 45,000 new homes by 2027, and amend planning controls near another 31 train stations around Sydney, Wollongong and Newcastle in a massive housing push.

Sure, if you can get it, try it. There still needs to be market demand from developers, which in the Sydney case won't be an issue.

New development changes things very slowly, city growth is about 1-2% p.a. which means the other 98-99% of the city is unchanged with this approach.

New growth can't do all the heavy lifting to shift mode share, but it can contribute.

A lot of the historical growth in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane came from tram corridors. Think Stones Corner, Mt Gravatt shops, Racecourse Rd, Hamilton etc.

It would be great if BRT could replicate that. Should be wider than just HR/metro stations.

Quote from: Jonno on December 21, 2023, 09:16:58 AM

Quote from: #Metro on December 21, 2023, 09:14:57 AMLow density cities exist. As long as they do, there will always be a need for strategies that work with that.

Will be interesting to see how Sunshine Coast will integrate the BRT. Key question will be whether the system ends up open or closed BRT, and what plans are to add density around stations (residents permitting).

Step 1. Low density cities should not exist.  They only exist due to restrictive city plans! They are not a naturally occurring creation.  Nor do they provide the housing /city people would prefer.

Agreeing with Metro here. Your head is in the clouds if you think that a large majority of Australians "prefer" density. I do, but I'm in the minority.

I challenge you to make that point to the bricklayer down the road who owns a ute and a jetski, or the family with three kids who owns 2 golden retrievers.

I also want more density but the reality is single family homes are going to be prevalent in Australia for some time. You need to approach it from a pragmatic approach, working within current existing social and political boundaries and making slow incremental change.

Agree though that Sydney is doing a great job rezoning around the new Metro stations. If you look into the politics of that though there are some issues, council corruption and gentrification are a big problem in greater Sydney.

Quote from: #Metro on December 21, 2023, 07:06:34 AMIt is leading practice.

Melbourne and Sydney are probably more leading practice in the Australian context, since they both achieve higher trips  per capita.

We don't have to rebuild to be like Paris...

QuoteYour head is in the clouds if you think that a large majority of Australians "prefer" density. I do, but I'm in the minority.

Can see where you are coming from, but property prices are higher in Sydney and Melbourne, which are denser, and the most expensive suburbs tend to be ones that are denser, and the same applies in Brisbane. Demand and supply. The denser places are in higher demand.

It's not so much "density" in itself that people like, but rather convenience, and we can certainly have much more of that.

Not doubting the people with jetskis and big houses exist, but there is definitely an undersupply for people that want a cheaper, smaller place with convenience.

Top 10 most expensive suburbs in Sydney 2022
https://www.doorsteps.com.au/market-insights/most-expensive-suburbs-in-sydney

1. Darling Point — $10,350,000
2. Bellevue Hill — $8,750,000
3. Vaucluse — $9,000,000
4. Tamarama — $9,200,000
5. Double Bay — $6,375,000
6. Cremorne Point — $5,648,500
7. Centennial Park — $5,010,000
8. Dover Heights — $6,500,000
9. Mosman — $5,250,000
10. Longueville — $6,400,000

^^ Well, none of Sydney's Top 10 most expensive suburbs contain a train station within the suburb boundary or a TOD. It's all ferry or bus to these places, with the exception of perhaps areas within 800m of Edgecliff station.

Similar case with Brisbane:

10 most expensive suburbs in Brisbane
https://metropole.com.au/10-most-expensive-suburbs-in-brisbane/

1. Teneriffe – $3.62m
2. New Farm – $2.94m
3. Chandler – $2.55m
4. Ascot – $2.22m
5. Hamilton – $2.05m
6. St Lucia – $2.05m
7. Pullenvale – $2.00m
8. Bulimba – $1.99m
9. Hawthorne – $1.82m
10. Fig Tree Pocket – $1.73m

^ With the exception of Ascot, none of these have a train station either. Hamilton the only one with a TOD (maybe if the Gold CityGlider gets there). Can't imagine Ascot train station being a huge pull factor, given that it has no Sunday train service.

Quote^^ Well, none of Sydney's Top 10 most expensive suburbs contain a train station within the suburb boundary or a TOD. It's all ferry or bus to these places, with the exception of perhaps areas within 800m of Edgecliff station.

Ok so Sydney has 658 suburbs, so a sample size of 10 is not going to tell you much since that's just 1.5% of all suburbs so im going to move on to the next point if that's the level of data analysis you are doing.

Sydney has a few of those very small exclusive suburbs with massive mansions on the harbor, which drastically push the median price up. Centennial Park is interesting too because the suburb is mostly the parklands, but there is a millionaires row along the north western edge, you can see quite clearly on google earth
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Centennial+Park+NSW+2021/@-33.8946612,151.2279402,1147m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x6b12ae2221a55fc9:0x5017d681632b0b0!8m2!3d-33.892162!4d151.2321807!16zL20vMDQ3aDZy?entry=ttu

Furthermore, if you read what I wrote.

....expensive suburbs tend to be ones that are denser

Saying that it "tends to be" in no way means "The top 10 in a list all have TODs"


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What about for the 'normal' suburbs for lack of a better word, rather than cherry picking the outliers?

I was more thinking along the lines of places like Surrey Hills, Ultimo, Potts Point, Newtown Etc.
Places that are trendy, good transport, walkable. These sorts of areas command higher prices than say Bonnyrig or Wetherill Park.

PS, I never said anything about TOD, but certainly in may of the Brisbane examples given they are walkable, have better PT than the rest of brisbane, and are in more convenient locations, and the average dwelling size is lower (Think of all the unit blocks along Sr Fred Schonell Drive, or the woolstore and other new apartments in Tennerriffe)

Or New Farm, its more dense and a lot of the houses are small lot code houses on tiny lots. there arent really a whole lot of big quarter acre blocks with 3 car garages in New Farm, correct?

The new farm example proves me right actually.
You can see this 3 bedroom townhouse in New Farm on a small 350m block is for sale for $3.2m
https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-qld-new+farm-143382108

This house in acacia ridge, also 3 bedrooms, but on a much larger 597sqm block is $660k
https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-qld-acacia+ridge-143583052

So why would people be willing to pay 4 or 5 times as much for less land in New Farm?
Probably because New Farm is more convienent, and the density means better amenties, the public transport is better, etc etc.

Note the Grattan Institute research found between 50-60% of people would prefer non-detached housing if available! This was12 years ago too. I suspect that % is even higher!!

All suburbs and towns should have a mix of housing irrespective of whether are! Even way out west!! The scale changes but not the mix!

Using low density as an excuse not to provide high-quality public transport+ "people's preferences" to not increase low-density zoning is political BS and fails everyone.

Well, as long as low-density suburbs exist there will be a need for specific PT strategies that serve those low-density areas. Plenty of Sunshine Coast suburbs are low-density. Why would Sippy Downs turn into Surry Hills, or Palmview turn into Potts Point?

Should you wait until Sippy Downs turns into Surry Hills to deploy frequent PT to that suburb, if for example, it would mean that you could avoid using 'bad tools' P&R or BRT for example?

And how quickly would that transition take, assuming that it could be done? What timeline precisely are we talking about to get to Sydney and Melbourne per-capita levels? What steps would need to be taken?

Expecting transit authority planners in Perth or Adelaide or the SC to reach Melbourne or Sydney level per capita trips given their reality lacks credibility. You can't just jump straight to those levels (or densities). Transit authority planners in low-density cities didn't get to choose the city density they were given, or the planning rules democratically elected LGAs and State Governments made in the past.

There's definitely a demand for apartments no question. And TOD developments too. My point was more that there will ALWAYS be some amount of suburban single family homes, and it will take quite a while to move the needle to where this will be the minority.

Regarding the Sunshine Coast, take a look at the community consultation reports for the DSCL. Overwhelmingly the biggest thing people wanted in the surveys was Park n Ride. There is huge demand for the train stations, but given the very car centric nature of Sunny coast, they want to be able to drive there. I think given the coasts status as a regional city and this being a quasi-regional rail line, the park n rides are justified.

Note that though for the Maroochydore station, despite feedback demanding a park n ride, TMR doesn't have one in its plans as they see Maroochydore CBD as too dense to warrant it in their city planning for the area.

Like if they were gonna turn around and build a giant park n ride at Yeronga station or something, that would be outrageous. I'd love to see Inner Beenleigh line stations get a bit more TOD to take advantage of their proximity to the city. Yeerongpilly has the big development going in next door but Fairfield, Dutton Park, Yeronga are severely lacking

Quote from: #Metro on December 21, 2023, 12:52:05 PMWell, as long as low-density suburbs exist there will be a need for specific PT strategies that serve those low-density areas. Plenty of Sunshine Coast suburbs are low-density. Why would Sippy Downs turn into Surry Hills, or Palmview turn into Potts Point?

Should you wait until Sippy Downs turns into Surry Hills to deploy frequent PT to that suburb, if for example, it would mean that you could avoid using 'bad tools' P&R or BRT for example?

And how quickly would that transition take, assuming that it could be done? What timeline precisely are we talking about to get to Sydney and Melbourne per-capita levels? What steps would need to be taken?

Expecting transit authority planners in Perth or Adelaide or the SC to reach Melbourne or Sydney level per capita trips given their reality lacks credibility. You can't just jump straight to those levels (or densities). Transit authority planners in low-density cities didn't get to choose the city density they were given, or the planning rules democratically elected LGAs and State Governments made in the past.

here is Auckland stats https://x.com/stuartbdonovan/status/1664147412871684096?s=46&t=EDszjTErsxTIqAna7yuP-w

Agree timh. 'Battlefield' conditions and situation context matters.

It's about how can we move beyond rules of thumb like 'TOD = Good, P&R = Bad' to something more context responsive while still working towards the end goals.

PS: As for Auckland, Jonno, IIRC that is a wholesale upzone by abolishing the low density zone category. That means density virtually everywhere, not just near trains.

I floated something similar a while ago on this forum, it didn't seem to land well. Would be happy if members were to support it.

PPS: Jonno, did you see Equation 1 in the linked paper. Voodoo!!   

Perth certainly is NOT world leading in their PT methods. They do get some results and are doing good things, but world leading doesn't involve massive park n rides (paid or not), it involves good levels of density around stations, good feeder bus networks (Perth is pretty good with this for the most part AFAIK), good walkability, good active transport corridors (proper bikeways etc., not just painted bicycle gutters), good overall public transport network that isn't just pandering to cars 99% of the time.
Yes, Perth is generally doing a lot better at transport than Brisbane/SEQ, but that's a very, very low bar to jump over. Perth do some things well, but have a long way to go in other areas, let alone be classed as 'world leading'.

Sunshine Coast News --> MP calls for more information on rapid bus project as government continues business case

QuoteA Sunshine Coast federal MP has insisted the state government reveal more plans for the Sunshine Coast Public Transport project, which is expected to ease congestion.

The LNP Member for Fisher, Andrew Wallace, has welcomed the government's decision to implement a bus rapid transit network, instead of light rail, from Maroochydore to Kawana and possibly to Caloundra.

But he wonders how much it will cost and where the money to build it will come from.

He is also worried that the project will lead to increased density and fewer lanes along busy Nicklin Way.

In response, a Department of Transport and Main Roads spokesperson said the project would ease traffic and that more information on costs and changes to the existing road network would be revealed this year while it continues to finalise a detailed business case. ...

QuoteHe is also worried that the project will lead to increased density and fewer lanes along busy Nicklin Way.

Plenty of hinterland places if low density is your thing.

The very definition of OUT OF TOUCH!!